I originally posted this in another thread, but I think it deserves it's own.

Ah yes, the assumed cartoony proportions which I loathe and hate, and everyone takes for granted:
From Xenophilia:

There were plenty of differences, though, besides her obvious sapience. (And, well, the wings. No vertebrate on Earth had a third limb girdle) Her head and mouth were structured totally differently for one, with a shorter, narrower muzzle, larger eyes, stereoscopic vision, much larger brain cavity, and a more humanlike lip structure than any terrestrial equine. Even her hooves were different; softer and more flexible than a terran horse’s, (as he could feel right now with her forehoof resting on his chest) and boasting a limited grasping capability that no horse had ever had.

And from The Thessalonica Legacy:

It wasn’t a person at all, but a small, purple quadruped. It looked sort of like a miniature horse, with a compact body, and a big, round head with large, purple eyes.

And from The Finger Trap (the thing about the hoof-tongue is especially repulsive, seriously, what was going through this author's head!?!):

"Oh, that's -- that's clever, sir." Faust looked down at her chart. "All right. The physiology is largely equine. No surprise there. But the skeletal and muscular structure is very much anthropomorphic. The face is capable of a vast variety of expressions and vocal articulations. The shoulder and hip joints have a wide range of motion, slightly larger than that of human shoulders. The body is proportioned such that she can sustain bipedal posture and motion. Ms, Sparkle, if you could demonstrate...?" Twilight reared up on her hind legs and took a few steps before dropping back on all fours.
"And the hooves," Faust continued, "the hooves are the really curious thing. They have the keratinous walls, as you'd expect. But on the underside, instead of a thick layer of calloused skin, they have thin skin over a retractable muscle mass, almost like a tongue. When pulled in, it turns the hoof walls into natural horseshoes. When pushed out, it can be used for grasping and manipulation. It doesn't provide as much dexterity as a hand, but it's still fairly useful. Observe." She handed a pen to Twilight, who held up a forehoof to take it. The pen appeared to stick to Twilight's hoof, and she even twirled it a bit before the major took it back.

Now don't get me wrong, these are excellent fics, but I don't see why authors are so adamant about giving them anatomy of a cartoon, just try and imagine these being real:

I also can't stand it when humans are described has having "beady little eyes" in comparison to a pony, like authors expect pony eyes to be the size of dinner plates. But on the other hand, could you imagine if humans had the proportions of anime?:

I mean, whats wrong with ponies looking like, well you know, ponies, instead of nightmarish pastel-colored deep sea creatures?:

I think the effect would turn out great:

Though, if you stuck a gun to my head and forced me to compromise, I guess I could settle for something like this:

Your thoughts?

I don't know whether to break out the brain bleach or embrace them for what they are.

Im not sure if troll or if I should end you for saying these monsters are better then adorable cartoon ponies...

Quite frankly if I saw a fat rainbowdash recreation of a real horse I would order the entire planet to be nuked immediately.

NUKE IT NOW

There was a similar thread to this last night and as I wrote on there I think that the ponies would probably look better in cartoon form (just one guy's opinion). I don't think the facial features of an actual pony would allow for the depth of emotion the characters can express. As I wrote in the other thread I think that it would be more or less like Blues Clues. Human looks real, but ponies and Equestria retain cartoony appeal.

1246363 In my story I address this briefly. I basically have them looking identical to how they do in the cartoon, as well as the world of Equestria, and when the human shows up he takes on the appearance of a cartoon as well. That way there is no uncanny valley because the ponies already appear animated.

Different universes. Have different animations/color scheme and shapes. And if one entered such a cartoon universe the colors of your body (not necessarily turn into a Pony) will change in color too

If they share Human like traits like cleanliness they make themselves look pretty. After all a stallion is not going to go anywhere near a dirty mare that smells horrible.

So they aren't going to be smelly and ugly like animals if they are sapient if they act like Humans and Ponies from the show. Well not as ugly if they are sapient.

Call me a jerk, but I personally wouldn't date someone not Human enough looking.

Because they are writing about cartoon characters, so they deserve cartoon proportions. If they were real I would agree with you it would look weird but their not real, therefore it really doesn't matter how you describe them. In the end, I guess it comes down to how you envision it and whether or not it you like what you see.

1246402 You would seriously rather have them look like this?:

And real ponies aren't fat, they've just got large multichambered stomachs.

I suspect people don't want them to look like horses because it'd be awkward to get jiggy and romp around with Celestia.

Also, that's assuming any sane military officer would give a teenage boy command over thermonuclear weapons.

1246435 And what I mean by this post is when they're described in HiE fic, everything is supposed to be realistic, but authors insist on making them freaks.

1246433 Nothing wrong with that, if a cartoon-world is part of the plot, so be it. It's just when authors try to go for realism that things get uncomfortable.

Well, these iamges DEFINITELY reach the uncanny valley, in its techical meaning... however, while the fist ones seems Lovercraftian abominations, the last ones are less uncanny, and more likable, and, in all honesty, I like them

1246363
So you have a problem with people saying the ponies look like they do in the show? Well good luck with that...

1246486 Not at all, like I said, it's when authors try to go for realism, but then it just ends up back firing.

Ponies (real ones) are fuckin' adorable. Anyone who says different has never had one of the littler examples of the devious bastards try to eat their hat and then run off at the stubbiest trot ever.

What was I saying again? Oh yeah. Realistic-ish ponies are far less disturbing than trying to keep them cartoony. That's just weird. For weird people. People who think Who Framed Roger Rabbit and Cool World (I'm not old, dammit!) were good ideas.

Stop being weird, people.

1246508 Agreed, one of the most adorably hilarious things things I saw as a child, was when my Grandpa's little Shetland pony stretched her neck outside the fence to try and turn on the water spicket with her teeth, and ended up ripping it out of the damn wall and got sprayed in the face. Shetlands are smart little bastards.

All those pics were very desterbing the first one of sweetie bell.looks fucking creepy as shit and in true pony form they look fat and retartid the only one that looked ok was flutters

It bears mentioning that "pony" is a conformation term, and plenty of them look more or less like smaller-proportioned horses rather than the distinctly round, fuzzy, extra adorable munchkins depicted in the OP pics.

1246438
I agree. In reality the giant eyes would be very unnatural.

Biologically speaking, their eyes are impractically, impossibly large. An adult human eye is about 2.5 cm in diameter. The ostrich's eyes, said to be the largest of all land vertebrates, is only about 5 cm in diameter. The giant and colossal squids have the largest recorded eyes of any living animal, with a maximum diameter of at least 27 cm. Of course, those squid are about 13 m long, so the drastic size difference is important to note. Reducing the squid down to a human length (rather, height) of 1.8 m gives us eyes that are ~3.7 cm in diameter, which is acceptable.

Assuming that, based on measurements made by several people, Ponies are on average 108 cm tall at the top of the head, their eyes should be about 15-16 cm in diameter.
...That's the size of a cantaloupe. And considering that their skulls would be about 38 cm wide by 42 cm tall by 45 cm long... is there room in that skull for the big brain they would need for sapience? Those eyes are so big they'd take up too much space for there to be such a large brain.

...In the end, Pony bodies don't make biological sense on multiple levels.

1246703 Maybe their brain is housed in their torso, and their head is just a bundle of sensory organs. Or perhaps they have ganglia like insects.

1246725
I decided to just post another message instead.

1246505
Ah. I misread it, I guess. I got'CHA now.

1246725

• Blue Circle: Approximate location for center of mass.
• Red Line : Approximate location for radius of rotation (center of rotation obviously at the bottom of red line).
• Green Line: Approximate location for axis of stability (axis upon which mass should be easiest to carry while retaining ones balance).

The center of mass and radius of rotation are both far forward of the axis of stability.

What do you think all of this means for a Pony's sense of balance and mobility?

1246946 I get what you're saying. I always wondered why they didn't faceplant themselves with those big ol' noggins jutting out, and only those tiny little barrels were available for a counterweight.

Also, ponies don't make all those gestures with their hooves (and occasionally manipulate objects with them) because they have special human-like limbs with hooves on the end. They do it because it's cute (and the animators got lazy).

1247001
I fixed it.

1247007 Yeah, you fixed it as soon as I posted my reply (fixed it in response).

1246946
http://ds-lands.com/photo/animals/european-bison/07/

Many carnivores and herbivores have centre of mass close to forelegs and their skeleton adjusted for it.

1247017
If MLP had any kind of realistic physics, what would be happening every time a Pony tried to move forwards is the same thing that happened to Pinkie Pie in episode two — instant faceplant. There is no sense of balance to a Pony's body. It's a laughably horrible design, biologically-speaking.

INB4 "LOLMAGIC we don't have to explain shit"

1247044 Yeah but they have a much longer torso (don't know the cattle term for it) make up for those big shoulders and head, whereas pony barrels are a foot or two long.

1247044
There is a HUGE difference between that bison and the Pony.
For one, the bison's head isn't just almost the same volume as the body. Pony heads are absolutely HUGE, and unless they're basically empty, they should make up a significant portion of the Pony's mass. Also, the bison doesn't awkwardly hold its head up, and its height isn't comprised of >50% head/neck, <50% legs/body (seriously, over half of a Pony's height is actually head and neck); thus, the bison is actually well balanced while the Pony is horrendously balanced.

Not counting the tail (because its hair and thus not actually very heavy), Ponies are actually taller than they are long (8.5 to 6.5). This is typically a bad combination in quadrupeds. I can think of one that makes it work, the giraffe, and those are actually designed to be reasonably stable.

Ponies should be very clumsy.

1247071

Pony heads are absolutely HUGE, and unless they're basically empty, they should make up a significant portion of the Pony's mass.

Maybe pony heads are porus like a sponge.

1247071
The difference is, but it is not caught in your pic. Moreover, you cannot estimate the position of centre of mass from 2d-pic.

Another counterargument is that we do not know how much of pony outline is fur. See these pics http://www.sciroccohounds.com/litters.html , especially under "Scirocco Hounds Sept 13, 2011".

What is definitely true are too things: their legs look a bit too thick and their heads are indeed huge with eyes too big, because, hey! cartoon.

On the other hand, an RL pony-look will not work, because they cannot express facial expression and has too narrow binocular vision sector.

1247113
...Maybe Ponies are made of marshmallow!

Wild unfounded "what if" hypotheses are great fun... but basically useless to us in the end, since we can just change the parameters of the universe's laws to make anything possible without actually solving any problems.

1247145

Moreover, you cannot estimate the position of centre of mass from 2d-pic.

That's actually a pretty weak excuse. I'd normally agree with you except that we know what Ponies look like from the front and back profile already, so we can model them in 3D.
But I'll humor you anyways:

This image doesn't change my approximate locations from earlier. In fact, it pretty much reinforces it.

Another counterargument is that we do not know how much of pony outline is fur.

Given their appearance, and the knowledge of real ponies that they are loosely based on, they should be short-haired. Assuming they're fluffy ponies for no reason is a contrived hypothesis. Thus, since they do not show signs to the contrary, it is safer to assume they are similar to the creatures they are based on. Yes, there are long-haired ponies — but they are an exception to the norm, and you already know that.

What is definitely true are too things: their legs look a bit too thick and their heads are indeed huge with eyes too big, because, hey! cartoon.

Their legs are also too stubby and their heads are held too high as well. Just look at the way their spine would have to bend to make their posture work; it bends almost 135 degrees, once at the forelegs and again at the base of the skull.

The spine starts at the tail, turns 90 degrees at the forelegs, and then turns about 45 degrees to connect to the base of the skull. I messed up at the base of the skull, but you get the idea. The spine is bent up all to hell.

With the OP 100%.

A 2D, vectorized drawing is a very, very different thing from a flesh and blood animal - It's just a bunch of lines and colors your brain is assembling into an abstract representation of a living creature. If you're writing about it instead of drawing it, it's "real" inside the story and directly translating those proportions to a live being would look really, really fucked up.

Them looking like a cute but unusual breed of real pony would be much more in the spirit of the character designs.
Something like how they would look next to a real pony like we would look next to an early hominid.

1247478 Yeah, and the difference between a (little) pony and a horse would be like the difference between a gnome and an ogre.

1247533
Yeah, exactly. I think sapient, tool-using ponies would look like... sapient, tool-using ponies.

Besides, it's not like real ponies aren't already pretty cute. That's why it's My Little Pony to begin with, instead of My Little Centipede or My Little Naked Mole Rat.

this is one of the most fucked up threads ive ever seen so far they all look fucking awful i still say the first pic of sweetie bell needs to be fucking burned she looks scary as shit i whould shit my self and run for the hills if i saw something like that or ied fucking kill it on the spot if i had a weapon and there eyes are out of control there almost as big as there head some one needs to come up with a real compromise cauz looking like real pony's is awful too they look fat as hell lol my lil fatty horse friendship is chubby

1248092 You feel threatened by Sweetie Belle do you? The Uncanny Valley at it's finest...

1246363 You write the stories the way you want, the rest of us will assume the pictures on the TV screen are what the actual creatures look like. The last critter to look like that was a Pinkie clone, and Twilight obliterated her for that

Betcha can't make a face crazier than this!

1246946 That's why they need prehensile tails, to grip the ground.

1248594
Wut.

1248594 I'm not trying to tell anybody what to do, I'm just saying that trying to translate a stylized cartoon into anatomy and facial features seems, well...

...you be the judge.

1248635
Kill it with fire.

Let me just say, this thread has almost convinced me to describe the cartoon outlines of the ponies.

1247158
Just let me say, that this has convinced me to change the descriptions to point out the discrepencies that occur in their anatomies.
Just saying, I've seen no reason for me to believe that ponies are even vertebrates. I'd like to imagine that their "spine" is more like a tongue in that it is composed of muscle. The rest of their skeletons are naturally made of normal bone, but that's beside the point, if we want to discuss the mechanics of motions for a cartoon animal, we might as well pull out all of the stops and come up with all of the strange excuses...

1246406
Indeed, honesty, I would not have been able to watch the show at all if they had gone with a more realistic anatomy.
Emotional communication is just too damned important, and no matter that people can read the basic emotions of a real horse, they do not convey the emotion in a manner that is satisfying for those of us humans that are not used to dealing with horses.
Also, I cannot accept an equine society that has real equine anatomy, as their kinesthetic processes would simply not work as tool wielders.

Also, real life ponies sort of creep me out, larger horses not so much, but...

1249416

Also, real life ponies sort of creep me out, larger horses not so much, but...

real life ponies sort of creep me out

creep me out

Come to your senses man! How can you find one of the most adorable creatures ever tamed by man to be creepy? Such audacity!

Now humans on the other hand...

1249485
Personally, both of these images evoke only a single defining response in my mind:

1249416 Anyway, did you even read my posts? I never suggested that the cartoons should be more realistic. It's just that authors seem to think that "realistic" means "not vectorized". Hence, they end up making them look like horrific monsters.

You say you'd have trouble relating to a pony that looks like an actual pony, but would you relate more to a creature with a head the size of a fetal elephant and eyes the size of cantaloupes? A creature who's limbs (which seem more like water-filled tentacles) can twist and contort to all sorts of unnatural positions? A creature that spits in the face of biology and common sense?

Really, the only suggestions for solutions to the Uncanny Valley Pony are:

#1. Make them resemble actual ponies. However, as you've said, they're more bestial-looking than people would prefer, shredding whatever little dignity and self-respect a reader would have while reading a human-on-pony clopfic.

#2. The Roger Rabbit Effect. They're toons, they follow toon logic and toon physics.

#3. Keep it vague. You could simply state that they're pastel colored ponies. At most you could say they have "expressive eyes" but not make them the size of a giant squid's. This leaves the reader to their own conclusions.

1249729 I've actually thought on this sort of thing before, and there is another solution...
Change them some. Lengthen the body, decrease head size a little... And come out with something not "horse-like" or using "completely impossible cartoon anatomy". The eyes would be decreased in size a bit relative to the head so as to negate the insane creepiness the really large eyes would cause.
In my writing, I tend to do this automatically, to keep the ponies from becoming Lovecraftian abominations.

1249874 Which would pretty much be like the last pic of my OP, yes? Like I said, I'm kosher.

1249898 Yes, actually. The only thing I could think here is to slightly decrease the general width of the pony by about 5 inches, and decrease the pudge. It would end up looking more like a small horse than an actual pony, I think; another thing I do in my writing is to make the average pony around 4'8", granting more space for internal organs and such, allowing a more slender body.

1249416 I think you find larger horses less anatomically creepy because they have a larger body to work with, which means more space for internal organs, resulting in a more aesthetically pleasing slender form.

1250091 Bingo.

1249729
You know what, I'm not entirely certain that I did.
I find it humorous when an author transports the exact cartoon qualities into a realistic world, mostly because when one thinks about it, they turn into ill-proportioned monsters that are both implausible and aesthetically terrifying, in an ideal world, however, where the author does not wish to bother with such travesties, I find that the roger rabbit effect is acceptable. In general, however, if one is going to compare our cartoon ponies to the real terrestrial horses, I would prefer that they abstained from it at all.

Simply put, I find the discrepancies more of an obstacle than an asset.

If I missed your point, I'm sorry, I skimmed over your post, stopping when I saw the remark about the 135 degree spinal bend(ouch), which led me to think about animals that have that capability, which led me to the comment about the spine made out of muscular tissue. This was intended as a joke, and was more intended to point out the fact that this is not so serious of a conversation, one that, while there contains is enough material for contention, this subject is not one that I can justify as being worth any sort of contention.

Besides, I kind of like the improbably large eyes. I find them to be capable of great expressiveness.

#1249898
its those eyes man and how round the head is it just needs to be killed or something

like sweetie bell is awsum i love the cmc scootaloo is best pony hands down but fuck my dog that shit so creepy how ? how can something so cute as a cartoon look so bad in real life why dose it look ok as a cartoon but not done up looking real even my none brony friend says it looks fucking evil o gods i almost scared to ask but do you got one of scoots theres no way scoots can look that bad maybe is just how pail and dead looking sweeties color is that sick pasty white like shes fucking an undead child or alien or something