This one's a little dark, but I've been wondering where exactly Sunset Shimmer stands on the morality scale. We see that in both EQG1 and Rainbow Rocks that she's willing to confront her enemies directly, and her demon form didn't have any qualms about killing.

For comparison, Twilight strikes me as the kind of character who wouldn't even think about taking another life. When she's upset, she seems to internalize all of her angst, blowing up or breaking down off by herself when things go wrong (Lesson Zero, Rainbow Rocks, Magical Mystery Cure). With Sunset, she's been shown to lash out against others if she gets upset (against Twilight in the first film and Trixie in the second).

But at the same time, Sunset's not the kind of character to disregard possible redemption. After all, the same thing happened to her. So wouldn't it stand to reason that she'd be willing to help redeem characters instead of killing them?

After pondering this, I came up with a result that fits both of these. Sunset's morality is similar to the Tenth's Doctor's. She'll give you your one chance to stop; but if you refuse, then her wrath is on your head.

What do you guys think? How would you place her on the moral compass?

East.

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It's a bit hard to talk about realistic morality in a cartoon where megalomaniac villains are completely redeemed via Care Bear Stare and "having friends" can make all the difference between rampaging supervillainy and being a productive member of society.

Suffice to say, I view Sunset as a natural rebel, and very goal-oriented. Post-redemption, she is essentially Chaotic Good: She has a good heart but a free spirit, and will break the rules if that's what it takes to do the right thing.

Unlike Twilight, whose canonical greatest fear is doing anything that will disappoint or upset Celestia (which probably makes her Lawful Good), Sunset ultimately only answers to herself.

For comparison, Twilight strikes me as the kind of character who wouldn't even think about taking another life. When she's upset, she seems to internalize all of her angst, blowing up or breaking down off by herself when things go wrong (Lesson Zero, Rainbow Rocks, Magical Mystery Cure). With Sunset, she's been shown to lash out against others if she gets upset (against Twilight in the first film and Trixie in the second).

This is a matter of temperament, though, not morality.

And, frankly, we have seen far more examples of Twilight resorting to violence than Sunset, and usually unflinchingly too boot. If anything, Twilight has always been pretty pragmatic.

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Probably Chaotic Good, sliding to Lawful Good the more the Humane Five temper her.

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Wouldn't sliding into Neutral Good make more sense?

4538747 Initially, I'd say she started True Neutral, then dipped towards Neutral Evil with a slight Lawful slant, before going Lawful Evil as a raging she-demon (law = control, she used mind control magic, that's my logic and I'm sticking to it). Post her stint as a raging she-demon, she moved towards Lawful Good (first instinct when the Sirens showed they were bad news was go to an authority figure), and now she's either Lawful Good or Neutral Good. Or somewhere inbetween.

4538747 I think most of the main cast could, in sufficiently extreme situations, react with extreme measures.

For Sunset specifically... I think she may have some lingering anger issues, and that she would react badly if provoked in the right way. (Or if defending her friends.) Being a master of social manipulation, this is harder to pull off, and she's more likely to lash out socially than physically.

It's hard to say, really. It would depend a lot on the type of villain and the situation they're in. I don't think Sunset would risk putting her friends lives in danger just to redeem a villain, for instance. She couldn't do what Fluttershy did with Discord, and wouldn't even try.

Also DnD alignment classifications are dumb and tell you nothing.

I thought of an idea where the Rainbooms got their asses kicked (Sunset didn't help) and Sunset watches in horror of seeing her friends getting slaughtered (darkly) at the hands of the Dazzlings. Not willing to see them die, anger quickly gets the best out of her and she turns into the demon from the first film. She then goes fighting against the Sirens with extreme and dark magic to protect- HEY NEW STORY IDEA OF SUNSET'S HOTHEADDED ISSUES ON A POSITIVE NOTE!

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Yes, probably. I was half-asleep when I wrote that.

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D&D Ali—

Carry on.

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Also DnD alignment classifications are dumb and tell you nothing.

This.

MtG colors are so much better.

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Also DnD alignment classifications are dumb and tell you nothing.

Meh. It's a simple way to exemplify something that is actually incredibly complicated, and I'm lazy.

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Sure I can, if that two word phrase comes with a 3000 word article explaining how to interpret it and apply it to a given character in a fictional context where moral standards are much more objective and standardized than in the real world, and where archetypical characterization is actually pretty common and acceptable.

What I can't do is sort actual real people into a small number of categories based on superficially similar moral beliefs and personality/behavioral traits, and then claim to have figured out human nature. Because that would be silly. Not that people haven't been trying to do that anyway since antiquity, and we still see traces of that in how we characterize fictional people to this day.

And at the end of the day, isn't that sorta what we writers do? Make life a bit easier to understand by abstracting it all down to relatively simple formulas?

So when I call Sunset a Chaotic Good character, I'm not making a statement about how human morals function in the real world, but rather I'm trying to give you an easy way of understanding how I view this particular cartoon character by referencing a well-known popculture morality system.

I like to think that Sunset is the Anti Twilight. She carves her own destiny, fights for what she believes, and doesn't let legal bullshit get in the way of doing what she thinks is right

Even back in the first movie, Sunset had standards that she sincerely believed in. They weren't particularly strict standards -- she was callous, manipulative, fine with inflicting emotional trauma, and probably a petty thief -- but those standards were there.

She didn't kill Twilight in her sleep, when she had the chance; but then, she didn't think that the situation was particularly serious at the time, and certainly didn't expect to trip and have Twilight chase her practically into the portal.

More importantly, at the portal, she let Spike go because she wasn't willing to hurt him, or even threaten to hurt him. She knew perfectly well that letting him go meant losing her heart's desire -- not getting the crown, not getting another shot at princesshood, ultimately dying a natural death in an alien world -- but even so, she didn't sell out. When given the choice between being right and winning, she decided that she'd rather be right. That's not a virtue that's modeled in D&D.

And that virtue is why Sunset's one of the good guys now. She tried to take the crown off when it started to transform her malevolently... and then she had to watch as the worst part of her personality, brought to the fore, violated all her principles, trying to kill Twilight and launching a plan that would lead to war in Equestria. We saw in the yak episode that Princess Celestia regards war as something both evil and embarrassingly atavistic; Sunset, Celestia's student, probably thinks the same way, and we certainly know that she wasn't down with murder.

So, when Sunset was rainbow-laser-exorcised, she was already horrified at what she'd seen. (She probably has PTSD from that moment when her nightmare form threw a fireball at Twilight.) She needed no prompting to repent; she interrupted Twilight's condemnations to offer her apologies. That's the advantage of having objective morality: if there are some actions that you will never do, then if you do one of them, you know that you did something very wrong.

But still. As a good guy or a bad guy, she's aggressive, lawless, hot-tempered, impetuous, and generally wild -- not in the sense of being debauched or undisciplined (she's a brilliant scholar and amazingly athletic; her daily regimen must be formidable), but in the sense of being uncontrollable. She doesn't really know how to deal with negative emotions, and when she's angry, she takes it out on other people where Twilight takes it out on herself.

She's also enormously brave; and while she's a good manipulator, she's not particularly calculating or paranoid. She was willing to stand up to Princess Celestia even though it meant going from "third most important pony in Equestria" to "possibly-homeless undocumented immigrant in an alternate universe" in a matter of hours; she's generally willing to speak her mind and stand up for herself and others, even when the consequences will be an enormous mess.

You see why I'm one of Sunset's cultists. I'm outspoken by most people's standards, but I've always cultivated a crafty, paranoid streak, learning to tell powerful people what they want to hear in order to ensure that my life doesn't end up too miserable; but Sunset is willing to live with misery, if that's what being straightforward involves. (I headcanon that she isn't an orphan, she just hasn't been on speaking terms with her family since the age of eight.) I don't have the courage to live that way, and I don't know if I wish I had that courage or not; but I can't help but be impressed by it when I see it.

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When given the choice between being right and winning, she decided that she'd rather be right. That's not a virtue that's modeled in D&D.

The counterbalance is that she doesn't yet believe that she has lost. She couldn't blackmail Twi, but she still had Plan B: Play Tag. Her confidence in success was still there.

Sunset, Celestia's student, probably thinks the same way, and we certainly know that she wasn't down with murder.

I'm not too quick to attribute her unwillingness to kill to a latent sense of justice or mercy. Ponies have a very different moral outlook from humans. IMO, the pony unwillingness to kill a sapient is akin to the human unwillingness to get it on with a reviled animal (say, a warthog). Most humans are willing to kill for the right reasons, so all that is required is some self-rationalization of circumstances. For ponies it impacts their very sense of self.

She's also enormously brave; and while she's a good manipulator, she's not particularly calculating or paranoid.

You spin it into a positive trait, but it can also be a negative trait. For example, Chengar Qordath's opinion on this is that Sunset has too high an opinion of her own Machiavellian prowess. She's actually less crafty than she thinks she is. Not only does her temper get in the way, she's also prone to being manipulated. There's more to being a chessmaster than social charm.

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You spin it into a positive trait, but it can also be a negative trait. For example, Chengar Qordath's opinion on this is that Sunset has too high an opinion of her own Machiavellian prowess. She's actually less crafty than she thinks she is. Not only does her temper get in the way, she's also prone to being manipulated. There's more to being a chessmaster than social charm.

I was thinking of the part where she doesn't second-guess herself, or present a false face to stay in a good position; she's too proud or too honest to play her cards close to the vest. I certainly agree that her main weakness is her false belief that she's a sly, cunning Machiavellian manipulator. (And I see The Freeport Venture as up there with The Witch of the Everfree for really good depictions of Sunset Shimmer. For all her abilities, she's as much a threat to herself as she is to anyone else...)