I'm not a Mormon, but my brother is. He converted to the religion about a year ago. I came out as bisexual, as a Brony, as an Atheist, and told him that I was supporting my best friend, who is transgender and was disowned by her father. He took it very negatively. He disowned me, continuously condemns me, and he broke my heart. We were as inseparable as Twilight and Shining Armour before that happened. Now, my heart is in pieces. The loneliness me caused me drove me to depression and I attempted suicide a few times because of it. I'm not looking for approval of my sexuality, but rather how most Mormons would react to this.

Hey, guys. Legion here.

This guy sent me a PM this morning asking me to share his story in our group. Now, I don't know about all of you, but, while I don't support gay marriage, I can't stand to see people be treated poorly just because of their sexuality. I don't really know this guy at all, but I'd like to send out the call for some support. I'll be sharing a link to this thread with him/her, so just a post on this thread will be visible.

Thank you for reading.

Write on,
Legion

This is never right. Nopony should be harassed or condemned by others, especially if they're LDS. Don't we teach that we are all God's children? Then why are we treating each other like this? Ever since finding the show, I've tried to be more tolerant of people's views and ideas, and that includes sexuality. I don't like to read about faithful members who put down others, just because they're different. It's not right and there's no justification in their actions. I don't like people who are bisexual or gay, but I'm not going to shun them because of that. I'm not going to tell them that they're wrong and are going to Hell. I don't like it when people do that to me (and I got a lot of that on my mission).

In the end, live your life the way you want to. Leave it up to others to decide whether or not they want to support you. Besides, Isn't it great to be different? Isn't it wonderful to be exactly who you are?

My extended family was just talking about this when we got together on Sunday. We all agreed that it stinks when members miss the part about loving everyone. Disagreeing with someone else's lifestyle doesn't mean you go about being a jerk about it--that just creates contention and negative feelings, and to be honest, nobody wins when it comes to that.

I've never met someone I knew was gay in person, and I'm not sure how'd I feel once that happens. But I am going to try my best to treat them as Christ would. I know I'm not perfect, but I can at least try.

3764696 We are commanded to love the sinner and hate the sin. Never should we cast others out because of what they have done, instead we should invite them in, make them feel welcome, and pray for the best. After all, the savior of the world didn't condemn the adultress or the thieves, but instead sat with them, teaching them and us how we should treat our fellow man.

we are commanded to love our brothers and sisters, not love them as long as they don't do anything we disapprove of.

I've had several friends who have identified themselves as gay and bisexual. All of them knew that although I may not agree with their lifestyle, it did not mean that I thought they were bad people or cause me to love them any less. If you want to know the church's stance on homosexuality www.mormonsandgays.org is a good resource for that.

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Thank you, guys. He's done more such as insulting me for being an Atheist "moraless Atheist scum." To be honest, I thought about how we spent so much time together before he moved (he converted to Mormonism after he moved and I had known that I was bisexual for at least three years at that point, four years now.) Those thoughts and memories made me cry harder than I have cried in years. I don't know why, but I still love him and miss him even after he shattered my heart and even though he hates me.

3766064 You have the support of the New Empire, and mine. Even if you are Aetheist, don't stop trying. Don't stop fighting the darkness in the world.

Atra esterní ono thelduin. Mor'ranr lífa unin hjarta onr. Un du evarínya ono varda.

3766395 Thanks. What language is that last part?

3766735 The Ancient language, from Eragon. It says:

May good fortune rule over you. Peace live in your heart. And the stars watch over you.

3766813 Oh. I read Warriors by Erin Hunter.

3766852 Love those books. The end was sad, though.

3767653 Haven't read them all yet, so please, no spoilers.

3764926 1) You think that homosexuality is sinful, even though God must have made them that way

2) You compared homosexuals to thieves -.-

3873727 No, I was comparing them to adulterers. I was pointing out that Jesus Christ would talk with and eat with anyone, and that, while he did disapprove of their actions, instead of bringing the hellfire, he taught them and befriended them.

There is actually a quote about Jesus eating with the thief and the adulterer, and I was paraphrasing that quote to make my point.

Any sexual interaction outside of marriage is a sin, not just homosexuality. God made me a heterosexual, but you don't see me having sex outside of marriage. Stealing is a lot less serious sin than adultery, since stealing is merely taking worldly possessions, that which we cannot take with us, and has no lasting value in the eternities. Sexual sin of any kind is messing with the god-given powers of procreation. Those powers are sacred, and should be treated as such. That means just sex with your legal spouse. No sex with every woman in the club, no sex with partners of the same gender, and no sex outside of marriage.

When you say that God must have made them that way, you are discounting freedom of choice. It may be true that God gave homosexuals those urges, but he did that as a test, to see if they would resist those urges and follow his commandments instead. They are free to choose, just as I am free to choose, as well as anyone else in this world. He doesn't force them to be homosexuals, just in the same way that he doesn't force me to be heterosexual, or thieves to be thieves, or murderers to be murderers, or generous people to be generous, or kind people to be kind, or charitable people to be charitable.

We all have a choice, whether to choose the light or the dark, to worship God or Satan, to help our fellow man or condemn them. I will not condemn homosexuals for their choice, since it is not my place. Who knows? I may meet them in heaven one day, or find myself cast into hell alongside them. That is not my place to say, nor is it my place to judge. Only God can judge, and I am thankful for that, since I would probably make a pretty poor judge.

We all have trials in our lives, we all have choices that we must make. Call me prejudiced if you want. But you cannot silence me, nor can I silence you. I would like to think that we are both adult enough to allow the other to have their own opinion without this turning into a flame war, and that we can actually like each other despite our radically difference of opinion, but maybe that is too optimistic of me.

After all, this is the Internet, where the slightest of opinions against someone else's is turned into a racial slur, and where any mention of God is either attacked by overly enthusiastic atheist nuts, or complete and total religious zealots. Or trolls, those exist too.

Anyway, call me what you will, the commandments of God are here to safeguard us and the family, and that is what is most important.

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Any sexual interaction outside of marriage is a sin, not just homosexuality

So you'd be fine with married gays having sex? Because the reason many gays can't marry is because of the Christian Right.

And yeah, I agree. I'd be pretty upset if I discovered my partner was cheating on me. But it wouldn't be 'because God', it would be because they made a promise to me, no matter their gender.

Stealing is a lot less serious sin than adultery

So you'd rather have something of yours stolen than for two non-married, consenting adults to have sex?

Sexual sin of any kind is messing with the god-given powers of procreation ... No sex with every woman in the club, no sex with partners of the same gender, and no sex outside of marriage.

But why? I've asked so many people this, and nobody has given me a real answer. I agree that cheating is wrong, but that's a personal issue, not a religious one. But, if I've never been married, why would it be wrong for me to sleep with someone else who has never been married? I'm not breaking any vows or hurting anyone.

And why is it wrong to have sex with someone of the same gender? Most arguments I've seen have been 'because God'.

It may be true that God gave homosexuals those urges, but he did that as a test,

So everyone gets homosexual urges, and only the unrighteous act upon them? Okay, could you just do me one little thing? Think about two men having sex. Does that turn you off or even disgust you? Then clearly not everyone has homsexual urges.

Or maybe I misunderstood. Maybe you meant that only some people have them. Then, why? Does God just go around, putting the urge to sin into random people? That's just like the police going around planting cocaine on random people and arresting them. Either way, your agrument makes no sense.

We all have a choice ... to worship God or Satan

Or neither. I mean, you could be an atheist or a Hindu.

I would like to think that we are both adult enough to allow the other to have their own opinion without this turning into a flame war

I hope so too. I've tried to be civil and not post lots of passive-agressive insults...

I would like to think ... that we can actually like each other despite our radically difference of opinion, but maybe that is too optimistic of me.

...Aaaaand then you go and imply I'm unreasonable and angry because I believe that God (if He exists) has better things to do than worry about two men (or two women) having sex.

the commandments of God are here to safeguard us and the family

And how are 'we' or 'the family' safeguarded by banishing gays to Hell?

3874911
That also raises the question of if God truly implants homosexual urges into people, why does he, as a loving, all-knowing deity, instill such urges on people he knows cannot resist, only to send them to Hell for it?

Unless I know nothing about Mormonism, which is a distinct possibility.

3875015 That was sort of what I was getting at, but you said it fair more succinctly than I could.

And, I must confess, neither do I.

3874911 Let me first apologize for this statement:

I would like to think ... that we can actually like each other despite our radically difference of opinion, but maybe that is too optimistic of me.

This is the Internet, and I could not tell whether or not I was talking to a person who really wanted answers, or if I was just talking to someone who wanted to start a fight. That was totally my bad, and I'm sorry for that.

Anyway, you wanted an explenation, so here it is. It is a long one, so hold onto your horses. If you want the short version, no I don't believe that all homosexuals are going to Hell. Read on for the long version.

So, to fully explain all the questions you have for me, I'll have to give you a little background on what we Mormons believe. One of the more important things you must keep in mind is that we don't just believe in a hereafter, but also in a premortal world. We believe that we lived with God before this world was made, and while we were there, a plan of happiness was presented to us. We all agreed to this plan, and came to earth to be tested, to see if we would do what the Lord commanded, or if we would be disobedient.

Stealing is a lot less serious sin than adultery

So you'd rather have something of yours stolen than for two non-married, consenting adults to have sex?

With this eternal view in mind, material things are rather fleeting, so yes, stealing is a less serious offense.

Sexual sin of any kind is messing with the god-given powers of procreation ... No sex with every woman in the club, no sex with partners of the same gender, and no sex outside of marriage.

But why? I've asked so many people this, and nobody has given me a real answer. I agree that cheating is wrong, but that's a personal issue, not a religious one. But, if I've never been married, why would it be wrong for me to sleep with someone else who has never been married? I'm not breaking any vows or hurting anyone.

And why is it wrong to have sex with someone of the same gender? Most arguments I've seen have been 'because God'.

Sex has a primary function, and a secondary function. Its primary function is to bring more souls from the premortal world, to this one. The Lord has a lot of children on the other side, all waiting to come here for a chance to gain a body, and experience this life for themselves. This makes the act of procreation incredibly sacred, and thus it needs to be safeguarded. That is why he instituted marriage and the family, to safeguard his children as they come to earth.

How many children are born to single parents out of wedlock? and how many have to deal without a parent? or without both? It makes it extremely difficult for those souls to get a leg up in this world without those two starting foundations in their lives. Now, I know that there are couples who live together and raise children together, and are married in all but name, and that is good. But the Lord has prescribed a set method and way that we should follow, as safeguards to protect his newborn children.

Anyway, I also know what you're about to say. "That still doesn't explain why we can't do it with contraceptives or in same sex relationships", and I was about to get to that.

As for sex with contraceptives, there are two reasons why this is bad. One, you are toying with the powers of creation, and as I've stated before, it is very sacred, and should be treated with the respect that it deserves. More often then not, it is treated as something that you pay for, or for one night stands, or in other disrespectful ways.
The other reason falls under the secondary function of sex. Sex is to bring a couple closer together in a very sacred and intimate way. Sex engenders very powerful emotions between the two parties involved, and treating it in such a disrespectful manner cheapens the experience and lessens its value for those involved. Not only that, but it also can very easily create resentment between the two parties if it is not treated with the proper respect.

As for why no same sex relationships, this falls back into bringing children into the world. Sex is supposed to be between man and woman to bring more of heavenly father's children into this world, so that they have loving families to turn to and to support them.

Now, say what you want about adoption and surrogacy for same sex partners, and say what you want about gender equality, but men and women were created differently. Not unequally , just different. Each were given specific skills and attributes that complement and play off of each other to strengthen the family and help raise children. With same sex marriages, you are missing half of the equation, and are therefore missing the point.

That is why we Mormons are so against sexual relationships outside of marriage between man and woman. It is because sex is extremely sacred to us, and should not be treated lightly.

It may be true that God gave homosexuals those urges, but he did that as a test,

So everyone gets homosexual urges, and only the unrighteous act upon them? Okay, could you just do me one little thing? Think about two men having sex. Does that turn you off or even disgust you? Then clearly not everyone has homosexual urges.

Or maybe I misunderstood. Maybe you meant that only some people have them. Then, why? Does God just go around, putting the urge to sin into random people? That's just like the police going around planting cocaine on random people and arresting them. Either way, your argument makes no sense.

God doesn't "put sin" into anybody. It isn't a sin to have those urges. It is a sin to act upon them. Again, I'm falling back on the fact that we believe in a life before this one, so bare with me. God gives us trials to test us, and part of those trials is allowing Satan to tempt us. It isn't so much of a thing as a police officer planting drugs, but more along the lines of the Lord giving us something, and telling us not to use it. If we prove faithful in handling something like this, he rewards us for it by giving us something much, much better.

Now, I do not pretend to know why some people have homosexual urges, while others do not. Maybe it is one of those trials that God has given people, or maybe it is him allowing Satan to tempt people. Either way, it is something that I am not capable of speculating about, nor will I try. I'm sorry for pontificating a little earlier, but once I die and see the Big Man, I'll ask him about it.

We all have a choice ... to worship God or Satan

Or neither. I mean, you could be an atheist or a Hindu.

Okay, now you're just being facetious. At any rate, I was trying to illustrate that we are free to serve/worship/believe in any God we choose, or to not believe in any God whatsoever. We can even worship idols if we so choose. I was just using those two examples as extremes, and only those two because it was kind of poetic.

the commandments of God are here to safeguard us and the family

And how are 'we' or 'the family' safeguarded by banishing gays to Hell?

Now, this is something that is very, very important, so listen carefully. The commandments are to safeguard us, and by keeping them we protect ourselves both physically and spiritually. As for "sending all gays to hell." That isn't something we believe in per se. There is a Hell, don't get me wrong, but you have to be purposefully trying your hardest to reach there to even think about getting there.

This falls back into that "plan of happiness" that I was talking about earlier. We were all presented with this plan, and we all agreed to come here, and the plan goes thusly:
We start out in the premortal world, or in the life before this one.
We come to this earth to gain a body, gain experience, and to be tested. It is a blind test, so we have no clue about the life before. He still loves us, so he has given us ways to learn about him and have faith in him, so that we may one day return to him.

After this life, we return to the spirit world, and are sent to one of two places: Spirit Paradise, and Spirit Prison. Both places are kind of like "waiting rooms," with one being more peaceful than the other. This is far from the final reward, so bare with me. What marks the divide here is twofold: whether or not the person in question has been baptized, and whether or not that person has been a good person.

Now, I know what you're thinking: How on earth is that just? I know many good people that haven't been baptized, so what gives?

Again, this isn't the final resting place, and Spirit Prison isn't Hell by any stretch of the imagination. Also, we Mormons practice something called 'baptisms for the dead', through which we can vicariously perform baptisms for those that have gone before us, to allow our ancestors a chance to escape from Spirit Prison. Also, we believe that spirits from Spirit Paradise frequently visit the spirits in Spirit Prison to declare the word of God, and to give those people a chance to repent.

After a time spent in this state, all of humanity will be raised from the dead, both wicked and righteous, both male and female, both baptized and not, and are brought to God to be judged. And according to our works, we are assigned to three kingdoms of glory, or are cast into Hell.
The first (and best) is the Celestia Kingdom, and this is where all the people who have lived righteous and godly lives will end up here. And no, this is not restricted to 'just members of my church,' I fully expect such noble people like Gandhi to get here.
The next is the Terrestrial Kingdom, and this is for those who have lived good lives, but didn't live up to their potential, or who were unfaithful in their experience on earth, or who didn't keep their covenants in the church. This is still a much better place then the world we live in by a huge margin.
The third and least is the Telestial Kingdom, and this is for the wicked. It is for the murderers, the pedophiles, the unrepentant, and everybody along the same vein. These people have to suffer unbelievable torment before they can reach here, but after they do, they will find that this is still a better place than the world we currently live in.
Finally, there is Hell. This is for those who have tasted the goodness of God, and have rejected him completely. They have pretty much been guaranteed a place on the right hand of God, but have completely run counter to his will and wishes.
On record, there is only one known person who is to be sent here, and that is Judas, the Apostle that betrayed Jesus. As I have said, it is really, really hard to be sent to Hell.

We Mormons have a different concept of Heaven and Hell than most. To us, we are all children of God, each and every one of us are brothers and sisters, and God wants to see us all happy. The reason we tell others about God and Jesus and all of this, is because we want to see as many of our brothers and sisters in the Celestial Kingdom as possible. We want them to experience the same happiness that we have experienced in our own lives, and we want them to experience that happiness in the world to come.

No, I don't believe all homosexuals are going to Hell. I do believe that they are not living up to their potential, though. And that they are not obeying God's commandments. As such, unless they repent, they will not be going to the Celestial Kingdom.

Now, I know that you probably don't believe any of this, and you probably weren't asking for a whole book on the subject. However, the question of 'why is sexual sin such a big deal?' is an extremely complex one, and one that we do not take lightly. That being said, thank you for giving me a chance to explain my stance, and to explain what we believe in. I've had more people than I'd care to remember simply give me the middle finger and call me a homophobe simply because I told them I was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I'm sorry for being a little short with you earlier because of that, and I hope that you can forgive me for that.

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Hi there, I'm gonna hop into this without your permission.

So, to fully explain all the questions you have for me, I'll have to give you a little background on what we Mormons believe. One of the more important things you must keep in mind is that we don't just believe in a hereafter, but also in a premortal world. We believe that we lived with God before this world was made, and while we were there, a plan of happiness was presented to us. We all agreed to this plan, and came to earth to be tested, to see if we would do what the Lord commanded, or if we would be disobedient.

I learned something new about Mormonism. Cool.

Any who, the whole "deal" shabamf is pretty...odd.

I have no memory of such a deal, and frankly if I l, with my specific personality, were approached by any deity telling me to enter into a pact that sent me onto the Earth and required me to live by a specific set of standards I would say no.

There's also the problem of Mormonism not existing until rather recently,so such a deal would have gone unknown for several millennia. As I said, no memory of a deal and no Mormonism means no knowledge of a deal. Heck, even Judaism, the oldest of Abrahamic Religions wasn't around for very much of humanity.

Those Mesopotamians with their gay marriage didn't know anything about your religion or your pact.

That is why he instituted marriage and the family,

That's not a thing that happened, marriage is very much a human invention, it's existed in various forms for a lot longer than any religion that mentions marriage, especially yours.

As for sex with contraceptives, there are two reasons why this is bad. One, you are toying with the powers of creation, and as I've stated before, it is very sacred, and should be treated with the respect that it deserves. More often then not, it is treated as something that you pay for, or for one night stands, or in other disrespectful ways.
The other reason falls under the secondary function of sex. Sex is to bring a couple closer together in a very sacred and intimate way. Sex engenders very powerful emotions between the two parties involved, and treating it in such a disrespectful manner cheapens the experience and lessens its value for those involved. Not only that, but it also can very easily create resentment between the two parties if it is not treated with the proper respect.

You failed to mention couples that aren't ready to have children, but still wish to be closer. If sex brings people closer(boy does it) then the only argument against consentual sex between couples who use contraceptives would be that premortal souls exist in the testicles, and when you mate with someone you end up shooting souls into a rubber sock and throw them in the garbage, and only if they're lost forever.

If that is anywhere in the Mormon doctrine then your religion-based stance is mildly defendable. It probably isn't though.

As for why no same sex relationships, this falls back into bringing children into the world. Sex is supposed to be between man and woman to bring more of heavenly father's children into this world, so that they have loving families to turn to and to support them.

So God sends naturally gay animals to hell?

Now, say what you want about adoption and surrogacy for same sex partners, and say what you want about gender equality, but men and women were created differently. Not unequally , just different. Each were given specific skills and attributes that complement and play off of each other to strengthen the family and help raise children. With same sex marriages, you are missing half of the equation, and are therefore missing the point.

Except that you're completely wrong and children raised in same-sex households do just as good and sometimes better than children raised in "regular" homes.

So what is the point if not to ensure the well-being of the child, and what is the argument if same-sex couples are just as good or better at raising children?

You could cite a study that contrasts this but your study would almost be guaranteed to be older and more poorly conducted.

Now the only argument you have is "God's Plan to Happiness," which has no bearing if same-sex couples are just as happy as hetero couples which they very demonstrably are.

God doesn't "put sin" into anybody. It isn't a sin to have those urges. It is a sin to act upon them. Again, I'm falling back on the fact that we believe in a life before this one, so bare with me. God gives us trials to test us, and part of those trials is allowing Satan to tempt us. It isn't so much of a thing as a police officer planting drugs, but more along the lines of the Lord giving us something, and telling us not to use it. If we prove faithful in handling something like this, he rewards us for it by giving us something much, much better.
Now, I do not pretend to know why some people have homosexual urges, while others do not. Maybe it is one of those trials that God has given people, or maybe it is him allowing Satan to tempt people. Either way, it is something that I am not capable of speculating about, nor will I try. I'm sorry for pontificating a little earlier, but once I die and see the Big Man, I'll ask him about it.

If you believe in an all-knowing God, then the idea that God imposes urges, or allows urges to be imposed automatically places blame upon God, because if such urges are imposed upon someone who cannot handle them, and he knows they can't, he damns them automatically.

It would be akin to me going to my weekly gym visit, and while I'm in the middle of doing bench presses, a guy comes and adds an extra hundred pounds to my bar despite knowing I can't handle that much more weight, and then blaming me when the weight comes down and crushes me. And then he sends me to hell.

It would also be like if we blamed Anne Frank for not finding a better hiding place.

Also, we Mormons practice something called 'baptisms for the dead', through which we can vicariously perform baptisms for those that have gone before us, to allow our ancestors a chance to escape from Spirit Prison.

That's fucked up and you should stop.

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I learned something new about Mormonism. Cool.

Any who, the whole "deal" shabamf is pretty...odd.

I have no memory of such a deal, and frankly if I l, with my specific personality, were approached by any deity telling me to enter into a pact that sent me onto the Earth and required me to live by a specific set of standards I would say no.

This wasn't a 'deal', per se. Something you must understand is that having a body is important. In this premortal world, we were created as spirits, each and every one of us. We lived in this fashion for quite some time, as brothers and sisters, with God as our Heavenly Father. When we in the LDS faith say that God is our father, we mean it quite literally.
At any rate, we all saw that God had a body, but we did not. We all wanted this blessing for ourselves, so God presented a plan to us, a way for us all to not only gain a body, but to also be tested and have experiences, so that one day we could be like him and return to him. He told us flat out that it wasn't going to be easy, and that there was a chance that some of us wouldn't make it.

God knew that we weren't always going to follow his plan, that we were going to make mistakes, or some of us weren't even going to be able to hear about his word, which is why he prepared a savior for us from the foundation of the world. Jesus Christ stepped forward, and offered himself as the savior of the world, to give us the ability to repent of our sins, to return to God despite what we had done on this earth.

However, there was another who stepped forward, saying that God's plan was completely stupid, and presented a second plan. In this plan, he stated that not one soul would be lost, but that God's glory should be given to him for this plan.
How was he going to make it so that not even one soul wasn't going to be saved? simple. He was going to eliminate freedom of choice. Your ability to choose to argue with me? gone. Our choice to live righteously or wickedly? gone. Anyone's choice to make decisions for themselves? gone.

This person who stepped forward was named Lucifer, and he drew one third of the host of heaven to his cause. A war over agency was fought in heaven that day, and ultimately Lucifer was cast down, and he became Satan, The devil. HE and his followers were denied a chance to gain a mortal body, and a chance to come to earth for their rebellion. Because of this, he and his devils are all miserable, and they all seek to make us miserable like themselves. This is why Satan tempts mankind, why he wants to bring down as many souls as possible, because he wants us to be as miserable as he is.
He was cast down by Jesus Christ, who championed God's original plan, and offered himself as the savior of mankind.

Part of God's plan was to test us, to see if we would obey God without him constantly looking over our shoulders. At the time, we knew exactly what the price of failure and the reward for success was, and we also knew all the answers to the test. So how on earth is that a test?
We chose to have our memories withheld, so that we could properly take his test. If you didn't chose to do this, then there was only one other choice you could have made. And I know that you didn't side with Satan and his devils, because you are on this earth right now, talking with me on an Internet forum.

There's also the problem of Mormonism not existing until rather recently,so such a deal would have gone unknown for several millennia. As I said, no memory of a deal and no Mormonism means no knowledge of a deal. Heck, even Judaism, the oldest of Abrahamic Religions wasn't around for very much of humanity.

Those Mesopotamians with their gay marriage didn't know anything about your religion or your pact.

With this explanation, I am going to have to correct you on something. Our church's name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Not the mormon church, or mormonism. 'Mormon' and 'Mormonism' were monikers that people of my faith were branded with by detractors of our religion roughly around the time that the church was organized and formed. They saw that we had a book called The Book of Mormon, so they told everybody that we worshiped some devil called Mormon.
Something else you must understand, is that we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ has existed in one form or another since early times, but each time it has existed, it has fallen away, with the first person to establish this church being Adam, as the very first prophet, and the very first man on earth.
We claim that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was restored. In the spring of 1820, young man named Joseph Smith entered the woods, kneeled down, and prayed.
At the time, there had been a great confusion in his area over the matter of religion. There were members of all different sects and religious denominations, all arguing and attempting to convert the populace to their cause. Joseph noticed something strange about them, though. The each had the bible, but would interpret it so completely differently, that it became quite impossible to tell which church was right, and which was wrong.
As he found himself lost in this war of words, he stumbled upon a certain passage of scripture, found in James 1:5. It states: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
This passage of scripture hit him so hard, so forcefully, that he couldn't stop thinking about it. Eventually, he resolved to find out for himself. He had entered those woods, and had kneeled down to pray to ask God which church was right, and which he should join.
In his own words, he said: "I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
Joseph Smith asked of the Lord which of all the churches were true. The Lord said that none of them were. He said that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
He then called upon Joseph Smith to restore His church, and to bring forth His gospel. Over the course of Joseph Smith's life, many things were revealed, such as the fact that the church had existed in one form or another in the past, but each time it had been on the earth, the church had fallen away. The first Prophet was Adam, he also being the first man on earth.
Why doesn't the Bible have any good record of this? I'm glad you asked.
The Bible, over the years, has had things either purposefully removed, or has had things mistranslated. As such, while the Bible does contain the word of God, it has lost bits and pieces of it over the years. This is why we place so much emphasis on the Book of Mormon. I give you my personal testimony that that book was revealed by God, to restore the fullness of God's word to this earth, and to sweep away the confusion that the mistranslations and errors that are found within the bible.
Does it destroy the bible? of course not. It strengthens it by clarifying certain points of doctrine.
My whole argument hinges upon this book, whether it is true or not, and the best way to find out that is by reading it and praying about it. You can find an online copy here: www.lds.org

Anyway, we do not claim that God appeared and told us to create an entirely new church, but that God appeared and restored His gospel, and restored His church.

As to the Mesopotamians not knowing any of this gospel, you are correct about this. God knows this as well, which is why I don't think you read my comment very thoroughly. I clearly stated that he sends spirits in spirit paradise to spirit prison, to teach those who have not had a chance to hear about Jesus Christ, or the possibility of redemption. It is also why we perform baptisms for the dead. No, this does not take away their freedom of choice, it merely gives them the option to accept that ordinance for themselves, after they have lost the ability to do it for themselves. They still have the freedom to choose to not accept that baptism.
No, we do not dig up the dead and baptize them. As I've stated before, we do baptisms for the dead through proxy. A member of the church stands in for the person being baptized, to allow those that have gone on before a chance to accept this saving ordinance. So how is that messed up? No one's agency is being trampled upon, and no one's corpse is being violated. How is it messed up?

That is why he instituted marriage and the family,

That's not a thing that happened, marriage is very much a human invention, it's existed in various forms for a lot longer than any religion that mentions marriage, especially yours.

When I said that He instituted marriage, I was talking about Adam and Eve, and how they were the first people on this earth. They were also the first married couple.

You failed to mention couples that aren't ready to have children, but still wish to be closer. If sex brings people closer(boy does it) then the only argument against consensual sex between couples who use contraceptives would be that premortal souls exist in the testicles, and when you mate with someone you end up shooting souls into a rubber sock and throw them in the garbage, and only if they're lost forever.

If that is anywhere in the Mormon doctrine then your religion-based stance is mildly defendable. It probably isn't though.

Again, I wasn't stating just sex with contraceptives, but sex with contraceptives outside of marriage. If you had read what I had said previously, I had stated that sex is something incredibly sacred, and should be treated with the respect that it deserves. This means that it should only be used within the bonds of marriage, as laid out by God. That was my problem with sex outside of marriage with contraceptives.

No, we don't believe that premortal souls exist within the testicles, and no, they are not lost forever. Sheesh, pay attention.

So God sends naturally gay animals to hell?

Again, I don't think you read my previous comment thouroughly. I specifically said that I don't think that all gays are going to hell. As for animals, they are not held to the same standard that we are, and are less accountable before God.

Except that you're completely wrong and children raised in same-sex households do just as good and sometimes better than children raised in "regular" homes.

So what is the point if not to ensure the well-being of the child, and what is the argument if same-sex couples are just as good or better at raising children?

You could cite a study that contrasts this but your study would almost be guaranteed to be older and more poorly conducted.

Now the only argument you have is "God's Plan to Happiness," which has no bearing if same-sex couples are just as happy as hetero couples which they very demonstrably are.

As to the study that you pointed out, I read the offered links, as well as the others on that page. Do you know what I found? I saw that the study was a survey of about 390 people, and only same sex couples took the survey. The sample size is far too small. That means that you are missing a lot of data. not to mention that it broke a few other principles of the scientific method there. You might have had a point, if the data wasn't so skewed.

Again, the most important factor here isn't that the children aren't raised in a family with both parents, but as I stated before, sex's primary purpose is to bring children into this world. Same sex relationships are unable to do this, and something as sacred as sex should be treated with the proper respect that it deserves. This means that it should only be between a man and woman, and only within the bonds of marriage, as I have stated before. The familiy with both parents is still incredibly important, don't get me wrong, but it is still the least important reason here.

If you believe in an all-knowing God, then the idea that God imposes urges, or allows urges to be imposed automatically places blame upon God, because if such urges are imposed upon someone who cannot handle them, and he knows they can't, he damns them automatically.

It would be akin to me going to my weekly gym visit, and while I'm in the middle of doing bench presses, a guy comes and adds an extra hundred pounds to my bar despite knowing I can't handle that much more weight, and then blaming me when the weight comes down and crushes me. And then he sends me to hell.

Dude, you completely missed what I said before. God has promised us that he will not give us a trial or challenge greater than we can bare. Also, as I've stated before, I do not pretend to know what God did with homosexuals, and if someone has urges that they can truly not handle (such as the mentally unfit, or the mentally handicapped), then they are judged according to the knowledge that they have received, and not according to that which they have no control over. God isn't going to condemn the mentally handicapped for something that they have no control over, so don't even go there.

Does this mean I'm calling homosexuals mentally handicapped? heck no! they have full control over their faculties, and are able to make their choices the same as anyone else. This also means that they are able to resist that temptation. As I've stated before, I am heterosexual. does that mean that I go out and have sex with every woman I see? no. They are capable of controlling themselves, just as I am capable of controlling myself.

Again, If you read what I said before, I said that I didn't believe that all homosexuals are going to hell. Please read the last part about what we as mormons believe the afterlife is going to be like, because it is very important to what we've been discussing, and it sounds to me like you completely ignored all of it.

Also, yes he is an all knowing God, and as such, he understands our limitations, strengths, and weaknesses far better than we do. He knows that we will stumble, he knows that we will fall. That is why he provided a Savior, one Jesus Christ, the redeemer of the world. He has given us the ability to repent, to change in so many ways, that I cannot even begin to describe them.

It would also be like if we blamed Anne Frank for not finding a better hiding place.

Dude, that is just insulting, and isn't even in the same vein. Not cool.

Lastly, I know that you don't believe any of this, but I do. And the most important part to understanding any of this is for you to read The Book Of Mormon, since my whole faith and argument hinges on that book. Please read it, and don't skim.

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Something else you must understand, is that we believe that the Church of Jesus Christ has existed in one form or another since early times, but each time it has existed, it has fallen away, with the first person to establish this church being Adam, as the very first prophet, and the very first man on earth.

That's not historically accurate though. At all.

How was he going to make it so that not even one soul wasn't going to be saved? simple. He was going to eliminate freedom of choice. Your ability to choose to argue with me? gone. Our choice to live righteously or wickedly? gone. Anyone's choice to make decisions for themselves? gone.

An omnipotent omniscient being is not bound by paradox by definition, and would therefore know exactly how to save everyone without removing these things and have the means to do it.

With this explanation, I am going to have to correct you on something. Our church's name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Not the mormon church, or mormonism. 'Mormon' and 'Mormonism' were monikers that people of my faith were branded with by detractors of our religion roughly around the time that the church was organized and formed. They saw that we had a book called The Book of Mormon, so they told everybody that we worshiped some devil called Mormon.

I'm aware of this but every Latter-Day Saint I've ever met has addressed them self as "Mormon" so I do it by reflex. It's shorter than "Latter-Day Saintism anyway and I mean no offense by it so I will not change my vocabulary.

My whole argument hinges upon this book, whether it is true or not, and the best way to find out that is by reading it and praying about it. You can find an online copy here: www.lds.org

Actually the best way to find out whether or not the book makes accurate claims is to find some evidence of various claims.

We could look for records or remnants of sea-faring Jews in or around the time going off to North America, and date it to see if it fit the timeframe stated in the book.

If historical claims made by the Book of Mormon were found to be accurate then then that would be a much stronger argument for the accuracy of Mormonism than the book itself, much like transitional fossils and DNA testing, as well as cross-references and testable accounts of beneficial animal mutation would be a better argument for evolution than just reading Origin of Species and taking a dead guy's word for it.

I saw that the study was a survey of about 390 people, and only same sex couples took the survey. The sample size is far too small.

I would imagine that the reason homosexuals took the survey exclusively is because we already know how hetero-raised kids perform on average.
As far as the sample size, I'd agree that it's a tad miniscule, but it does bring to light that children can be properly raised by homosexuals.

Again, the most important factor here isn't that the children aren't raised in a family with both parents, but as I stated before, sex's primary purpose is to bring children into this world. Same sex relationships are unable to do this, and something as sacred as sex should be treated with the proper respect that it deserves. This means that it should only be between a man and woman, and only within the bonds of marriage, as I have stated before. The familiy with both parents is still incredibly important, don't get me wrong, but it is still the least important reason here.

So you have no issue with a sexless homosexual marriage that involves two consenting homosexuals under legal doctrines raising a child? Cool.

Unless you do, in which case, well, not cool.

I'd argue the validity of your particular religion, but that's a rude thing to do, and I would rather not surf the web telling people that the doctrine they've based their moral upbringing on is a lie. I only bring this up because you stated that your argument hinges on what you believe in being true. If that's the case it would be better to apply non-religious arguments against things in addition to the argument of "because God," as people like myself are often going to disregard religious arguments, simply on the grounds that we don't believe in it. Much like if you told (insert religious person) that (insert ideal of a conflicting religion) they would likely discard it without some other form of backing.

I will however point out that nobody in their right mind would take the story of Adam and Eve as literal.

3879359 I could argue all day with you about this statistic or that piece of data, how we don't have enough information about history, about seafaring Jews, and all that sort of stuff. But again, before we go any further, I would ask you to read that book. My entire argument, religion, and values are based upon that book, and whether it is true or not.

And since I claim that the book was given by God, it is a pretty hefty claim.

Whether you read it or not is up to you. Just know that I have my reasons for believing the way I do, no, we don't believe all homosexuals are going to hell, and yes, my religion says it is a sin.

Just know that I have a personal testimony that it is true, not because someone told me so, but because God told me in my heart. You can take that however you care to, it doesn't really matter to me. Just know that I we mormons believe that everyone on this earth is a spirit son or daughter of god. We don't believe we are better than others, we just want to share the happiness that we have found in this church with others.

Anyway, that is what I believe. Take what you will from my words, so long as I have said something that may help you in this life, I am content.

p.s. no I'm not offended by you calling us mormons, I do it all the time. I was just explaining the historical significance of our church's name because it relates to how we believe this church is the restored church, not something that someone just made up.

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Whether you read it or not is up to you.

I probably will at some point during my vacation in Yosemite, I've read the Bible enough times, might as well read something else.

I honestly don't particularly care if Mormonism is true or not, as most of the Mormons I've met have been pretty fantastic. I like the whole "be a better person" part, I just disagree with a lot of the social and political opinions behind it(I'm unsure of whether or not to address the Mormon teaching conglomerate as "the church"). I probably always will.

Just know that I have a personal testimony that it is true, not because someone told me so, but because God told me in my heart. You can take that however you care to, it doesn't really matter to me. Just know that I we mormons believe that everyone on this earth is a spirit son or daughter of god. We don't believe we are better than others, we just want to share the happiness that we have found in this church with others.

That's fine, I'm sure you know my answer on the acceptance of personal testimony at this point.

Either way, have a swell day.

3879389 You too. Have a fantastic vacation. I tell you, it is a relief to be able to have an intelligent conversation like this without it degenerating into a pissing match, or into a flame war.

Thank you for being a decent, intelligent human being and for restoring my faith in humanity.

You rock!

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Such kind words.

Reciprocation: you were polite, level-headed, and quite honest.

You rock also!