Background Pony: A Plea for Help · 8:22pm Nov 20th, 2012
Okay, I know that this story is supposed to be, like, the high-water mark of pony fiction. Now, in all honesty, I read the first chapter, and I loved it. It was dark, moody, haunting. It got all my feelz, as they say. It was perfect, a depressing, yet surprisingly open ending. I honestly got a bit misty.
Then came the second chapter.
And the third.
And they just kept getting longer, and longer, and longer. Guys, for real, I tried, really, I did. But for God's sake, GET ON WITH IT!!! I think it was chapter three, he spent like three paragraphs talking about a freaking apple! The whole time I'm reading it, I hear God from Holy Grail in my head:
GET ON WITH IT!!!
For crying out loud! Chapters 15 and 16, combined is longer than my entire story!! I'm sorry, guys. I think it's just my background(hur hur hur) as a Broadcast Journalist. In DINFOS, the Defense Information School(where the military trains its journalists), we were taught about the "Three C's": CLear, Correct, and Concise. CONCISE!!! And therein lies my problems with the story. SSnE spends four paragraphs saying what he could say in 3 sentences. He's WORDY, which is a cardinal sin where I come from. I have been pee-pee smacked many a time by my editors for being wordy, unclear, vague. Yet I see SSnE doing seemingly doing these very things, and where I am chastised for them, he is praised.
Now I know, fiction greatly differs from copy, so the comparison isn't really fair. But still, I can't look past the fact that he just takes too damn long to get to the bloody point! But it's more than that. The whole story is... jeez, I don't know, pretentious, I guess. It's just something about the way he talks about things, the way he makes Lyra see the world, it just goes past depressing and straight into emo. Also, if I may, that picture of Lyra in a black hoodie probably doesn't help matters. All she needs is some black eye liner, and she could be an employee at Hot Topic.
Now, before anyone accuses me of just being petty, let me openly admit this: yes, I am jealous of the story's success. It bothers me that this story, which I desperately tried to enjoy but couldn't make past the third chapter, has many tens of thousands of views, thousands of up votes, and hundreds of faves MORE than mine. Talk to Golden Vision, Piquo Pie, Guesswork, hell, pretty much every reviewer over on /fic/, and they'll testify that I have worked my ass off to make my story as good as I can make it. And yet, I have never made the featured box. I have never had the most respected writers in the fandom sing my praises. I have yet to have 30+ pages of comments on my story.
Stop, right now. I know you're thinking that I am thinking, "It should be me that has the fame! I should be the one being showered with praise!" Well... no. I am not saying these things because I feel I am better than SSnE, I say them because I'm not as good as him.
But I want to be. So what I am asking is this: please, someone, anyone, tell me what he is doing that I am not doing. I have no intention of copying him. I want to look at him, and see what I can learn and apply to my story and future stories. Again, I read the story, and I see redundancy, pseudo-philosophical diatribes that make no sense to me. Please, explain what my writing is missing.
Part of me is very afraid that, in this context, I am Jack Skellington from Nightmare Before Christmas, desperately trying to understand Christmas, yet unable to simply because of who he is. Maybe after all is said and done, the only thing anyone can say to me is, "Dude, you just don't get it." Maybe I just have no interest in the type of examination stories that he writes. Maybe I'll never be able to break my mold. I hope this is not the case.
Thanks for your time.
Applejack is Best Pony.
Its not about who has the better story, its about what people attempt to read. A lit of mediocre pony fics get a lot of views, why? Beause the picture or title interests them enough to read the descrion, and then the fic. Few stories get added plugs and recomendations from podcasts or other.
What fics get posted with it also matters because they all compete for viewers.
Also, background pony got a lot of interest by updating, on occasion, at the same time as anthropology.
I hate to say this, but a lot of what gets featured is pure luck. You could write something that totally panders to the fanbase, like a shipfic or something.
You can't predict what the readers will like. I tried reading Background Pony too and found it wasn't my cup of tea. It's just a matter of taste.
There are tons of stories with huge followings I don't 'get' and tons of stories with small followings which I think are unappreciated.
Some universes have instant feature, like the WinningVerse or the Lunaverse.
Some authors have so many followers that anything they write shoots up to the top.
It's not a matter of what you are or are not doing. It's just the numbers game.
Twilight Sparkle is best pony
There are actually many people who think the same way about BP, myself included. I haven't read past Chapter 10, and I guess I could only last so long because I had been following the fic since the release of the first chapter, so that I could read one chapter at a time when it updated and wasn't confronted with the whole mass of words at once.
I like SSnE's other long fic, The End of Ponies, far better--in fact, it is my favourite MLP:FiM fic--but I can't really tell what he is doing right. I have never read anything like it. It is even longer than BP, but to me it seems far more focused and less redundant. Although the writing is as wordy and purple as in BP, it somehow just works for me in EoP. However, I haven't seen any other writer so far who can write this way and yet make it so captivating. I am not sure if there is much that he does that you (or anyone else) can learn to make your writing better or more appealing to the masses, but I don't think that you need to learn anything from him. You are already a very good writer, and popularity on fimfiction has often nothing to do with how good a story is.
If I remember correctly, BP got most of its upvotes and favourites for the first chapter, and I think that this was not only due to the quality of SSnE's writing, but because of a variety of factors:
SSnE had already gained a readership of over 300 followers with The End of Ponies when he published the first chapter of BP, and BP was originally meant to be a one-shot, which is more appealing to many people than the prospect of a 400000 words epic. I assume that it also was published on the frontpage at a time at which many people were online. Put all that together and the result is the Feature Box. Since there was no time limit for staying in the Box at that time and the first chapter was indeed remarkably well written, the fic got more and more likes/faves and remained featured for almost a week. That's how it became so popular, and then SSnE decided to expand the story.
Under A Luminous Sky, on the other hand, has a Dark tag and is a multichapter fic. Moreover, it is a crime story, and for some reason such stories aren't all that well received on fimfiction (at least I don't know any extremely popular story of this kind). Therefore, your fic has a "natural" disadvantage when it comes to gaining popularity. Nevertheless, the EQD feature and the approval of reviewers like Golden Vision as well as the good like/dislike ratio for a fic of this genre are a clear sign that nothing is wrong with your writing, and it's not that I follow you out of fun. If you are not as popular as you wish, it's not because you are not good enough. I think it's more of a genre thing. You are sure to become popular with fics tagged as follows:
- (Romance and) Sex / Human + a little luck
- Romance / Adventure / Comedy / Random / Crossover + moderate luck
- Slice of Life + a great deal of luck
- Dark + God's blessings
I don't know how to explain BP having so many views; your criticisms about length are valid, but what ends up popular and what ends up great are two different things.
Background Pony has a lot of merits, it spends a lot of time on introspective character development that isn't preachy (too much) and does a great job of really presenting a whole being. It is not so much a story about unsung realms as it is a story about Lyra.
That said, holy fuckballs is it long, and holyfuckballs does it drawl out points to the point that they look more like raw hamburger than metaphors or symbolism. Yet there are so many other places to find critique in the story than on length, especially length juxtaposed with view count. There's the abundance of philosophizing becoming redundant, there are flow and pacing issues, the non-linear storytelling can sometimes be more confusing than beneficial to the narrative, some of the character fall flat, a lot of world-building is introduced but then never touched upon, and so on. Not that I disagree, Background Pony is 200,000 words too long, but to view length versus view count is to critique from a false premise.
Concise is the name of the game when you need to get across a very specific point, not when you want your reader to have to reflect on character choices or their own choices vicariously. Concise works for the news, it works plot-driven fiction, it works for lots of things, but being concise is something that requires balance. Otherwise, most stories could be told in a paragraph or less.
Now, why is Background Pony super popular? I'm sure someone else has a better grasp, but from where I'm standing it had a few things going for it. 1) End of Ponies was/is a popular grimdark that capitalized on the same grimdark fascination Fo:E did. 2) That popularity meant any subsequent story would get at least a few looks. 3) Background Pony was posted during the height of the "Lyra loves humans" obsession, but was a story that featured her, but not that trope. 4) It's dark. 5) It's an interesting concept. 6) Snowball effect.
For what it's worth, I really dig Luminous Sky (despite a few critiques I have of it) and I wish it was more widely viewed, but that's just how it is. Wrap that up, write some more, post some one-shots, cultivate a user base; view count is not the be-all-end-all of writing. Skirts has said on multiple occasions he's not a good writer, he just writes a lot.
522197
Thanks. And yeah, I know it ain't all about the views in the end. This was just irking me to no end. I see so many people telling me that BGP is one of the best stories in the fandom, and I need to read it, and all the rest. All the while, I sit back, scratch my head, and say "..... I don't get it."
Granted, I could say the exact same thing about MLD, or any number of stories that people love and I don't. BGP is just the biggest outside the meme-level stories.
Again, SSnE, no offense, it's just an Army thing: when you do really good, Drill Sergeant learns your name, he's that much harsher on you. Much love.
See? I can copy/pasta just as good as you.
522226
I left this out of my original reply, but you're totally on point with it. Popular things are popular, good things are good. Sometimes good things are popular. Lots of times crappy things are even more popular.
I would read a few of his one-shots, you'll get a better idea of where his strengths as a writer are and a much better idea of his schtick in general. There's also this adventure and its sequel to consider.
(FWIW, I posted to /fic/ first
)
522256
I have read the first part of Ause...Auts... that story, and I liked it. A bit confused as to why it's in such little chunks, but I honestly don't mind, it doesn't bother me.
FWIW, so did I.
522281
~1chapter/day, that's why.
522286
Ah-ha. Makes sense, kind of like a challenge to himself. I could never, I kill myself editing, if only because I fear my prereaders so.
But still, 200 chapters?!?!
charliedigital.com/content/binary/comment-friday-damn.jpg
522292
253 if you count the (on-going) sequel. Editing? Where we're going we don't need... editing.
522317
Shoot, then we must be going two completely different places.
One thing I'm thinking about doing after UALS is finished is publish the VERY first draft, from before anyone ever looked at it. Kind of like a joke on myself, you know? A good laugh for everyone.
Also, Australiayu-gi-oh Has got me on the edge of my seat by chapter 32. What the hell is going on?!
522350
Vimbert does that, it's eye-opening. Certainly for anything serious you need editors, at the very least a pre-reader or two. Austraeoh... that's something else entirely. I'm glad you're enjoying it, because you are in for a whirlwind of a ride if you can stomach some blatant deus ex machina and twists that leave M. Night shedding a tear. Make sure you read the comments for each chapter, too, they start getting really important.
We'll be waiting in the Noble Jury if you make it that far.
521736>>521740>>522185>>522197
Thanks for the confidence boost. I frickin' love you guys, for real.
522450
But ,no, I've never been featured. But I honestly think that has more to do with the system than myself. Five bucks says whatever story I post next will be.
Been slowly working my way through BP, and to be honest, I am with you 100%. But what I think SSnE has on you is novelty. Don't get me wrong at all, Luminous Sky is a solid work, but turn on the TV nowadays and what are you usually going to see? Law and Order (chose your flavor), NCIS, Rizzoli and Isles, The Mentalist, Castle, the damn list of cop dramas goes on for miles! Ever since Law and fucking Order aired, if your show isn't a motherfucking COP DRAMA, its probably going to fail. If you were to take the high concept of BP and compare it to Sky, BP just stands out a bit more in its ideas.
A girl cursed to be forgotten by the people she meets hears songs in her head that may hold the key to her salvation, or lead her to damnation.
I read a premise like that, even outside the realm of pony fanfiction, and my head screams "sign me the fuck up!"
522906
And I, as well, said sign me up! The problem is three chapters,thousands of words in, and I say, "Are we there yet?"
Author responds,. "But... where is 'there?' What is 'there?' Did we ever really move? Is there gas in the car? Is there even a car? Come, let us paint our nails black and write poetry about it."
523106
Granted, he has a tendency to overdo the philosophizing in BP. I also have a tendency to get in too deep in the stuff I write sometimes. There are also his one-shots to consider (Gift probably being my personal favorite of his). Others have mentioned that he had a bit of a follower base prior to BP due to those, so that always helps. All things considered, I'd look at it more for the fact that he has an established presence as a writer than anything else.
523151
And again, I'm not trying to disparage him as a writer. This was just irking me to no end.
It's kind of the same reason I don't go to art museums a lot. I sit there for four hours staring at a can of soup, while everyone around me rants and raves about it being so deep and expressive and "the most important piece of our time," and I'm stuck there saying, "... I don't get it."
523209
But then what is getting it? Is the soup really there? or is it just tomatoes in a can? Why is the soup coming from my wrists?
523221
....... Reg, don't let the fact that you are a valued reader, friend, and compatriot lead you to the assumption that I will not slap you.
Because I will.
523226
On the topic of the feature box, look what is number one and two right now.
A Spike centric 'mature' fic.
And a Ayn Rand propaganda piece masquerading as a pony story.
So take that as you will.
Personally, the way I see it, BP became popular due to its MC (Lyra), the theme (The fear of being forgotten, one I know very well since returning from my year-long absence), the author (SSnS was already popular when made this tale), and of course, the writing.
BP is definitely purple. Matter of fact, it's just as purple as they come. However, the story manages to use this otherwise undesirable trait to its advantage. See, if you look deeper into it, you realize that the Character WOULD look at everything in a detailed manner. She would ensure that every second is treasured, for soon only she will recall it, and only via mental will. The Purple Prose then serves to remind the reader that this isn't some simple story they are reading. It's the struggle of a mare who attempts to make every second count, every memory last.
Can the story be told in a quicker fashion? Absolutely. Doing so however, would destroy some of the mystique. The way I see it, Background Pony isn't so much writing as it is something that's experienced. In that regard, this story succeeds.
523828
Copy/Pasta from /fic/:
You all make good points. And I thank you for not devolving into what I've experienced over on FIMFic, the attitude of, "Oh, you don't get it? Well, you just don't know anything about writing!" I never claimed to be an expert. I may not know art, but I know what I like. And this?
I wish I could like.
Honestly, looking at my feelings, pulling a Lyra, I guess you could say, everything you have said about the intricate character study, the emotion, the empathy for the character. I REALLY want to read this. But I can't, for three reasons:
1. I can't read purple prose. I just can't. I think it's the whole ADHD thing. I need dialogue, I need things happening. A lot of this story isn't things happening, it's Lyra talking about what she feels about things happening. That just can't hold my interest. And the worst part about it is that in many places, this philosophical talk blends in with the actual action, making it even harder to tell what is actually going on!
2. Let's be honest, because we've all said it: the length is intimidating. When I see one chapter at 40,000 words, I freak out. Hell, my two all time favorite stories, Flight of the Alicorn and Immortal Game, both had multiple chapters over 10,000 words. But I loved those because of Number One above: things happened. But 40,000 words, AND I have to read slow to make sure I'm tracking what's happening? I can't.
3. And this is the one that draws the most ire from fans: it's too damn depressing. Seriously, even if I didn't know how it ends, I coulda told you that how it would end from the beginning of Chapter Two. Hell, the second I found out he was making it a series instead of a one-shot, I knew! From the very start, this story makes it clear that this will not be a happy one. And that's FINE! Who wants only good things to happen? Hell, my story is about a serial killer! But the tone of the story is so defeatist and beaten. Even in the few chapters I read, when she succeeded at something, she won one round, it was almost immediately punctuated by sorrow. In case you can't tell from my typing style, I deal with depression, anxiety, and self-doubt enough. Again, even the picture, Lyra in a black hoodie, that right there tells me that this will not be fun, this will suck. That's actually the main reason why I haven't, and don't plan on reading EoP. Why would I want to read when the author tells me, straight up, in the synopsis, "Yeah, everyone dies?" Sure, the stories are about happier times, but when you frame it around an inescapable calamity where everybody dies a horrible, burning, fiery death... why? If he had left it more open, then maybe. But telling me first thing that everybody dies? Just don't see the point.
D) [because I said only three things, and dammit I'm a man of my word] I feel bad for Lyra. That's it. I just feel bad for her. But then, I don't want to wade through 200,000 words feeling ad for her. I got that from chapter one. I don't want to sit and watch this character suffer, knowing full well that it won't work out. Sure, it KINDA works out, from a nihilistic, defeatist point of view, but that doesn't count for me.
But once more, I realize the appeal to some. They want that melancholy depression type feels. Again, being honest, I think its because when I see stories like this that everyone loves, but I don't, I can't help but feel like I'm missing out on something, that I'm just not capable of getting it. If I'm being TOTALLY honest, Props, firing off your massive list of things that make you smarter than me probably doesn't help that much. :) For the thousandth time, SSnE, please take no insult from this.
I have a question. I used this word in my initial post, but now I feel I may have thrown it out there without using it right: pretentious. I felt like the fic is talking down to me somehow, or being preachy. Is this just a manifestation of my own insecurities, or is it a thing?
Blah, ranting. Staff Duty at 0530 is no time to be discussing the finer elements of philosophy and literature. I severely hope I'm not coming off as a bitter, jealous hack author attacking the better guys. Can't think, brain no workey no mores. Wish there was a story with the kind of character study here, but with out the Numbers One, Two, and Three above. Why can't there be more character-driven thrillers? Why do I think I'm writing one? What's the air speed velo—
I'm gonna stop now.
522812
BTW I was rear ended and probably have a mild concussion so edits will be a little slow when you combine that with the holidays.
523983
Oh, shit? Dude, don't worry about it. Take whatever time you need! You okay, though?
523209
Funny enough about the soup, that's one of the big points of that piece: pop-culture has art, so is art a big deal?
523452
The feature box is, to me, a living example of why popular things are not always good things. In the case of the cited fic, it's also a great indicator of the fandom's demographic (not Ayn Rand fans, but opinionated young people).
525084
What's the Ayn Rand story?
525205
Looks like it got pushed off, it was called And I Asked Why (or something close). It got a thumbs-down from me.
"It bothers me that this story, which I desperately tried to enjoy but couldn't make past the third chapter, has many tens of thousands of views, thousands of up votes, and hundreds of faves MORE than mine. Talk to Golden Vision, Piquo Pie, Guesswork, hell, pretty much every reviewer over on /fic/, and they'll testify that I have worked my ass off to make my story as good as I can make it. And yet, I have never made the featured box. I have never had the most respected writers in the fandom sing my praises. I have yet to have 30+ pages of comments on my story."
Welcome to Earth. This is life for 90% of people. I feel the same way about a lot of stories that have been praised which I feel are just pretenious or unoriginal or boring or... you get the idea. Complaining won't do anything but get fanboys on your ass and it's really just a waste of time. My plan is to write an amazing story that gets more praise than everyone else, THEN totally rip those writers a new one. Until then, I swallow my pride and let near talentless authors get their fifteen minutes.
EDIT: That second last part about "respected writers singing praise" is a load of shit. The only reason those guys praise other authors is to keep their own ego in check. "If I go around saying nice things about other writers, nobody will ever think I'm a pretentious hack!"
See, my problem is that I'm too concise. This one time, I managed to introduce a battleship to Equestria, and then start and finish a war all in the space of about 16,000 words. Lucky I didn't submit that to FOB Equestria. Thank you for the constructive criticism, by the way.
570479
I dial it way up for comedic purposes in my reviews, and some authors don't like that, or don't get the joke. The author of Faith & Doubt got pretty butthurt...
Well, I'm glad you saw through the snark.
But yeah, I liked your story, despite the flaws.
In all honesty, Background Pony is wordy because lyra is wordy more than anything.
The numbers game is proof positive that SS&E can write concise stories, but I feel like Background pony was made the way it was because of just how long Lyra's been dealing with the curse, and how it has changed her character.
It might have been a bit excessive at times, and even I found myself accidentally skimming sentences once or twice, but at the same time I never once could stop myself from hitting that "next chapter" button.