Riff of the Leaked Season Finale Pt 2 · 11:54pm Oct 8th, 2017
Warning: This episode is really, really bad. Oh, and there's also spoilers since I guess the episode hasn't aired yet. Believe me, though, you can read and you won't have much of any worth spoiled for you.
ACT ONE
Sc 2 - ext. PonHENGE - resumE
PONY OF SHADOWS
Your pitiful attempt to imprison me has FAILED, Starswirl!
I wouldn't exactly call a thousand years a failure, but whatever.
StARSWIRL
You must return us to limbo. It's the only way to stop him.
Wait, why can't they just send the Pony of Shadows back? This hasn't been explained yet. Is it some sort of special plea deal?
TwILIGHT
I only figured out how to bring you back.
SUNBURST
Working on it...No table of contents...
"Hang on, just give me a few more hours, Pony of Shadows."
PoNY OF SHADOWS
Allow me to assist.
PoNY OF SHADOWS (CONT'D)
There. Without the power of Ponhenge, your banishing spell is useless.
StARSWIRL
You have studied my writings. Surely you have some other plan.
TwILIGHT
No. I just wanted to save you, I didn't think--
PoNY OF SHADOWS
Don't fret. When I extinguish the light and hope of this miserable world...
A bit oxymoronical, but go on.
You won't remember any of this.
TwILIGHT
No!
PONY OF SHADOWS
This one is almost as strong as you, Starswirl. But even in my weakened state, she cannot stop the might of shadows!
Starlight
Lucky for her, she's not alone.
"She's got an OP-as-the-plot-demands unicorn on her side!"
PONY OF SHADOWS
ARRGGGHHH!
StaRSWIRL
Know this, fiend. We will not rest until we find a way to return you to limbo.
PONY OF SHADOWS
"Oh, really? Thanks for telling me your plan!"
Never. Your days of glory are through, Starswirl. Now my dark power will reign, and you six will bow to me!
raiNBOW DASH
Um... Where'd he go?
soMNAMBULA
That is a riddle we must unravel. And quickly.
"Now hand me my blindfold so I can swing at him! I'll bet he's full of black liquorice!"
meadowbrook
How long have we been gone?
FlUTTERSHY
Over a thousand years.
You didn't miss much. Just the plague.
StARSWIRL
Then my spell worked--before it was meddled with--
"By the way, how is it that you all understand me? Shouldn't I be speaking Olde Ponish?"
StARSWIRL (CONT'D)
--and the realm has been at peace for a millennia!
PinKIE PIE
Weeeeell... we did have to save everypony from Nightmare Moon, and Discord, and Chrysalis, and King Sombra, and Lord Tirek, and there was that one time when Starlight traveled through time and almost destroyed life as we know it! But that's all in the past.
"Or in the case of Starlight, it's all in the alternate timeline present."
flash MAGNUS
If you are truly this accomplished, we will stop the Pony of Shadows twice as fast together.
Yeah, not quite. We've still got 22 minutes of episode to fill.
STARSWIRL
We shall see. It is an easy thing to say you have saved the world. It is quite another to do it.
RaiNBOW DASH
Oh, we've saved the world, beardo.
"That's faceist!"
And we can do it again.
STARSWIRL
Be that as it may, the problem of locating the Pony of Shadows remains, and this land is vast.
"Oh, it's gotten even bigger, ever since the Louistalliana Purchase.
RarITY
It sounds like you need a map. Luckily, we have just the thing.
"Thanks, Rand McNally!"
Sc 3 - INT. TWILIGHT'S CASTLE – throne room – DAY
Wow, the land is so vast that it took an entire screen wipe to get back to Twilight's castle!
StaRSWIRL
Something about this magic seems familiar...
raRITY
Did you know he could do that?
TwiLIGHT
He's Starswirl! He can do anything!
"You know, anything except defeat the Pony of Shadows without banishing himself and his friends, that is."
StaRSWIRL
This map and, indeed, this very castle are grown from the seed we planted over a thousand years ago.
RockHOOF
Then it did work!
sunBURST
What worked?
SomNAMBULa
Each of us infused a crystal seed with our magic in hopes that it would grow into a force for good.
Six seeds, one castle. Math checks out.
MisTMANE
We wanted to leave something to protect the realm in our absence, but we never dreamed our gift would become so powerful.
apPLEJACK
Y'all mean the elements came from you?
PINKIE PIE
You know, the sparkly crystal things that grow from the Tree of Harmony and represent each of us?
PinKIE PIE
Laughter. Honesty. Generosity. Loyalty. Kindness. And magic!
SomNAMBULA
They are reflections of our own elements of hope, strength, beauty, bravery, healing, and sorcery.
Hope makes me laugh, too.
meaDOWBROOK
We had no idea our small seed would bloom into the living spirit of the land. I am glad our mantles have passed to such capable ponies.
StARSWIRL
More importantly, we no longer need Ponhenge to send our foe back to limbo. We can use the stored magic in this "Tree of Harmony."
TwILIGHT
But... Doesn't a banishing spell take a lot of power? We'd have to sacrifice the elements for that.
But why? You can't just use regular magic for that? How did they use a banishing spell in the first place?
FluTTERSHY
They’d be gone... Forever?
twILIGHT
Starswirl...I don't think the Tree can survive without the elements. If it dies, Equestria will suffer.
"I mean, Equestria did just fine for a thousand years without the tree having the elements, but whatever.
StARSWIRL
If the Pony of Shadows has his way, your land will not exist. So unless you have a better idea...?
StarSWIRL (CONT'D)
Our foe will seek dark places from which to draw power.
"He'll seek out every black and red alicorn OC in the land!"
I will prepare my spell, so that we may strike as soon as you find him.
RaiNBOW DASH
What are we waiting for?
FlasH MAGNUS
I like your spirit!
Get it? 'Cause they're both fast.
Sc 4 - Int. TwiLIGHT'S CASTLE – liBRARY - soon
SpIKE
What about this one?
TwILIGHT
Sea Pony etiquette isn't going to help right now, Spike.
"Other than to establish a tenuous connection with the lore, that is."
starlIGHT
Twilight? Are you okay?
"You've been awake for like, seven days now, and we're all starting to worry."
TwILIGHT
I just unleashed ultimate evil and doomed Equestria because I was obsessed with meeting my idol. Why wouldn't I be okay?
StarligHT
You didn't know that was gonna happen.
TWILIGHT
But I should have listened to you and left things alone. Now the elements of harmony will be lost to fix my mistake!
"It's not your fault, Twilight. Just bad writing."
StARLIGHT
Maybe there's another way...
SpiKE
If there is, Twilight will find it.
"After three days of looking through books, at which point it will be too late."
TwILIGHT
Portal gate... Portal keys... Portal spells
Portal 3 confirmed.
-- YES! If the Pillars can hold open the gateway to limbo, a powerful pony can do the banishing spell herself! Do you know what this means?
SpIKE
I can stop carrying books?
TwILIGHT
The Pillars don't have to leave Equestria! Even though we'll lose the elements, we'll have the ponies that created them. And the Pony of shadows will be banished for good!
Until Celestia opens it up and asks you to "reform" him.
starlIGHT
That's great... But I was thinking of another way that maybe doesn't involve "banishing" at all?
Yeah, why can't you just beat his ass like you did with Sombra?
TWILIGHT
Starswirl knew what he was doing when he cast that spell.
TWILIGHT
If I can make it even better...Maybe he'll see I take magic as seriously as he does.
Transition to:
SC 5 - ext. street (MANEHATTAN)– night
RocKHOOF
It seems the dark places Starswirl indicated on the map have changed.
Yeah, Manehattan's gotten a lot nicer since mayor Muleiani cleaned up all the crack addicts and porno theaters.
ApPLEJACK
I bet the Pony of Shadows woulda loved the Ghastly Caverns--before 1000 years of erosion turned it into the Ghastly Gorge...
"Ah read up on geology in muh spare time!"
FluTTERSHY
The "Appeloosian Wastes" sure sounded dark and desolate.
RarITY
Who knew they would become such a popular square dancing destination?
That's okay, there's plenty of darkness and desolation on the nearby buffalo reservation, with rampant alcoholism and poverty.
PinKIE PIE (o.S.)
And I get how this part of Equestria used to be cast in eternal night
Wait, what? How did just one area of Equestria get cast into eternal night? EXPLAIN!
where the Pony of Shadows could draw power and wreak havoc while ponies were powerless to stop him, but...
Pinkie's giant light face
...it's kinda made a comeback.
Ever since the pony Ghostbusters defeated the Stay-puft Marshmallow Mare, that is.
Pinkie's giant light face (CONT'D)
Did I mention it's really bright?!
Transition to:
SC 6 - INT. TWILIGHT'S CASTLE – MAP ROOM - DAY
StaRSWIRL
It seems there are fewer dark corners in the realm these days.
RaiNBOW DASH
Isn't that a good thing?
"Gentrification rules!"
FLASH MAGNUS
True. The Pony of Shadows will have a hard time regaining power.
"He'll have to go to the dark Everfree Forest or something!"
When he rears his head, we'll be ready!
FlUTTERSHY
Isn't there some way to banish him without losing all of you?
MeADOWBROOK
I wish there were. But to save our home, we are willing to leave it.
TwiLIGHT
I don't think you'll have to!
My spell isn't finished yet, but I think we can send The Pony of Shadows to limbo without all of you having to go as well!
Couldn't this have been explained offscreen, and the bizarre "Manehattan cloaked in darkness" thing be fleshed out a little more? Put me in as a writer, coach, I'm ready!
STARSWIRL
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, Twilight, this is hardly the time to take risks on half-baked spells.
"But hey, you did it before, so why stop now?"
AppLEJACK
Begging your pardon, Mr. The Bearded. But Twilight doesn't do anything half-way.
piNKIE PIE
Especially not magic!
"You know, except for that half-finished Starswirl cutie mark spell she cast that one time."
raiNBOW DASH
Seriously! She got her wings by finishing one of your spells.
RarITY
I think you’ll find her work is worth reading before you dismiss it out of hoof!
MeADOWBROOK
While it is an unconventional approach, I believe it could work.
But there's still 11 minutes in the episode, so no. It won't.
StarSWIRL
Hm. I suppose there is a chance...
SunBURST
...but we still have no idea where to find the villain.
"The villain?" Somebody's dialogue was written by a writer.
SpIKE
Maybe we should try there.
END ACT ONE
ACT TWO
SC 7 - INT. TWILIGHT'S CASTLE – MAP ROOM - RESUME
ApPLEJACK
The Hollow Shades. I think a branch of the Apple family lives there.
SuNBURST
They'd have to be pretty distant. The Hollow Shades was abandoned eons ago.
Wait, we're in a new dark place? Did the writers just forget the Everfree Forest or something?
RarITY
Hm, that's odd. The only time the map's called all of us to one place was Starlight's village.
RainBOW DASH
So it's like a super-villain tracker! No offence.
MULE: "None taken."
TwILIGHT
Do you think the map could be trying to tell us where the Pony of Shadows is?
StaRSWIRL
Tree of Harmony acting to protect the light of the realm...Yes, a good thought, Twilight.
StARSWIRL (CONT'D)
I will make my notes on this spell. Ready yourselves for battle.
"Wait, he gets to write and we have to fight? No fair!"
StarliGHT
I know I'm not as experienced as all of you, but is banishment really the only option? I mean, it's been a long time. Maybe the Pony of Shadows is ready to talk.
stARSWIRL
I doubt we can save our homeland with a conversation.
"We prefer shooting rainbows at things."
STARLIGHT
But we could try.
TwILIGHT
Starlight, I'm sure Starswirl and the others did try.
StarSWIRL
The Pony of Shadows was not interested in reconciliation. Once a villain, always a villain.
You know, except for like the fifty villains the show has reformed before. Why is only Starlight calling attention to this?
StaRSWIRL
Twilight, Sunburst, would you accompany me? I wish to refine this spell for our use.
RocKHOOF
Come. We must prepare for the struggle ahead.
STARLIGHT
I know Starswirl is a great wizard, but this whole plan seems wrong. The map's only ever sent us to solve friendship problems.
SPike
Maybe so, but the Pony of Shadows doesn't really seem like the friendship type.
STARLIGHT
Honestly? We don't know anything about him.
You can thank the writers for that.
SpIKE
Nopony does.
STARLIGHT
That's not entirely true.
Sc 8 - Ext. twILIGHT'S CASTLE – DAY
StarlIGHT
You all knew the Pony of Shadows before he became what he is now. You must've been friends. So what happened?
And nopony thought to ask this on the train or whatever while they were traveling from Ponehenge back to Twilight's castle? Or when they traveled all the way to Manehattan? What did they talk about, the WEATHER?
RockHOOF
The tale of our rift is a sad one.
The tale of this riff is even sadder.
Transition to:
Sc 9 - ext. Village - flashback
ROCKHOOF (V.O.)
Stygian was a pony like the rest of us-- though more scholar than hero. He recognized our emerging world would need champions to defend it.
FLASH MAGNUS (v.O.)
He may have gathered us together, but he, himself, was just an ordinary unicorn who soon grew jealous of our abilities.
Too bad there was no Element of Upper Management for him to have.
Sc 10 - ext. ponhenge - flashback
MiSTMANE (V.O.)
He stole objects from each of us - artifacts to use in a spell.
"At the time they weren't artifacts, though, just 'stuff.'"
MeaDOWBROOK (v.O.)
And we cast him out for it.
SoMNAMBULA
We always thought he'd return and seek forgiveness...
SomNAMBULA (CONT'D)
But when we saw him again, his heart was bent on revenge. He dashed even my hope of saving him.
"And since he was a unicorn, and only unicorns are villains in this show, that was the final straw."
end flashback
Sc 11 - EXT. twILIGHT'S CASTLE – resume
StarlIGHT
But why did he steal the artifacts from you?
He wanted to curate a museum, obviously.
MeADOWBROOK
No doubt it was an enchantment to take our powers for himself.
Sc 12 - Int. TwILIGHT'S CASTLE – liBRARY - day
StarlIGHT
That looks like a lot of work.
StaRSWIRL
It is what must be done, and it would be best if we were not disturbed.
"So SHUT UP!"
TwILIGHT
I'm sorry, Starlight, but we can't stop to talk, the stakes are too high and we have to--
STARLIGHT
Banish Stygian to limbo. I get it.
sunbuRST
Who?
"Don't you mean 'He who must not be named?'"
StaRSWIRL
Stygian was the name the Pony of Shadows gave up when he turned to darkness.
"Which, again, nopony but me bothered to ask."
StaRlIGHT
And I'm just trying to figure out why.
STARSWIRL
Envy. He wanted more power than he had, and that desire led him down a path from which there is no return.
STARLIGHT
I know from experience that's not always true. When the map called you six to my village, it was for a friendship problem. Are you sure this is different?
"No, we're all blind to the possibility of redemption because reasons."
TWILIGHT
I...
STARSWIRL
Stygian wants to destroy all that is good in this world. There's no way to befriend a pony like that.
If he's into explosions, though, then I'm sure the Mythbusters would take him.
StarlIGHT
I guess I'm lucky your idol wasn't around when you decided to be my friend. I might've been banished to limbo too.
What's so stupid about this is that Twilight finished Starswirl's spell and became the princess of friendship... BECAUSE Starswirl didn't understand friendship fully! Did she just forget all that, like she forgot about it being dangerous to mess around with unknown magic?
END ACT TWO
ACT THREE
SC 13 - INT. cave of harmony – DAY
SomNAMBULA
I am glad we have the chance to see what has grown from our efforts so long ago.
MisTMANE
It seems a shame to harm it.
The Lorax would be pissed.
staRSWIRL
A necessary sacrifice. With the elements' power, we will bind the Pony of Shadows in limbo. And thanks to Twilight, we will remain to watch over the realm ourselves.
"You six girls can finally go on vacation!"
RoCKHOOF
Um... How do we use them?
RaRITY
Well, you!... Oh. I'm not sure. They simply work for us.
StARSWIRL
The elements are attuned to you. We must use their magic in pairs.
RaiNBOW DASH
No problem. We're used to banishing evil before breakfast.
Saturdays at 8:30/9P on the Hub!
APPLEJACK
And it'll be an honor to save Equestria with y'all.
StarlIGHT
I really hope Twilight knows what she's doing...
"Did I mention that I have a problem with all of this?"
Dissolve to:
SC 14 - EXT. THE HOLLOW SHADES - perpetual NIGHT
SuNBURST
I don't remember reading anything that said the Hollow Shades was like this.
misTMANE
The Pony of Shadows must have twisted it to his purposes.
Wait, if he could just turn any place into darkness, then why did he pick such an obvious place to do so?
StARSWIRL (CONT'D)
Prepare yourselves. He is here.
STARSWIRL (CONT'D)
Stygian!
What a non-pony, stupid name by the way.
Show yourself and face us!
Sc 15 - Int. Well of shade - continuOUS
SunBURST
I definitely would have remembered reading about this.
PONY OF SHADOWS (o.S.)
Welcome to the Well of Shade!
"Please exit through the gift shop and try our DARK chocolate ice cream!"
PonY OF SHADOWS (CONT'D)
When you turned your backs on me, I discovered this place. The darkness spoke to me of a power beyond any I could imagine-- and I listened.
PONY OF SHADOWS (CONT'D)
The shadow and I became one. Soon all of the realm will be the same. Then all ponies will feel the despair I did when you cast me out!
Uh, for stealing artifacts? This guy does sound like an irredemable prick, but I guess they'll have Starlight be right because they can't have an unredeemed villain on the show anymore.
StaRSWIRL
We did what we had to do. You tried to steal our powers for yourself.
PONY OF SHADOWS
No. It was you who were selfish. And now you will pay!
StarlIGHT
Are you still sure this isn't a friendship problem?
We get it, writers. Your pet is the one who's in the right and has absolutely no allies, none of her kind-hearted friends who have DONE REDEMPTIONS BEFORE. Which would be more believable. You know, I defended Starlight before, but even I'm objective enough to see them obviously warping the other characters to make her look good. Anyway, I've talked enough. Back to the riff!
StARSWIRL
Ready? Open the portal... NOW!
PonY OF SHADOWS
No! You will not trap me again!
StARSWIRL
Twilight! Push him in!
"He's too fat! Grease the sides so he'll fit!"
TwILIGHT
Huh?
TwILIGHT
There's...A pony in there.
Sc 16 - Int. Magical light bubble - coNTINUOUS
TwILIGHT
Are you... Stygian?
StyGIAN
I was, once. Until my friends betrayed me.
His motive for villainy is almost as shallow as Discord's. CHAOS! SHADOWS!
TWILIGHT
But Starswirl says you betrayed them. You wanted their magic...
StyGIAN
No! I wanted their respect.
StyGIAN (CONT'D)
I brought them together. I planned strategy, and I read all I could about the beasts we faced... But I didn't have magic or strength. So nopony every noticed me.
"They even took my red stapler!"
StyGIAN (CONT'D)
I went to Ponhenge to make my own copies of the artifacts. With them, I thought I could be a Pillar too! And stand by their side in battle.
"Oh, I wish I was an Oscar Meyer pillar..."
StyGIAN (CONT'D)
I never wanted to steal their power.
StyGIAN (CONT'D)
But instead of sharing and letting me help... My friends threw me out.
StyGIAN (CONT'D)
So I became stronger than any of them!
styGIAN (CONT'D)
The darkness welcomed me when no pony would and I will do what I must to protect it!
TwILIGHT
This is all a misunderstanding! If the Pillars knew how you felt, I'm sure they wouldn't have turned their backs on you.
"But since nopony ever bothers to talk to each other in this show about friendship, they were all dicks."
The shadow isn't who you really are. Let me help you be Stygian again.
styGIAN
Even if my friends did still care, what makes you think you have the power to help me?
StarlIGHT
Because it's what she does. I wasn't so different from you and Twilight helped me change. If there's one pony in Equestria that can save a friendship, it's her.
"And, you know, those other five also-rans she hangs with."
styGIAN
I-- I want to believe you...
PoNY OF SHADOWS
But the darkness will not be stopped!
See, this would be a perfect time to mention how they all stopped Nightmare Moon, but the writers don't seem to remember anything before season 4.
Sc 17 - int. Well of shade - coNTINUOUS
TwiLIGHT
Fight the darkness, Stygian! You don't need it anymore. Revenge isn't what you want, friendship is!
"Revenge!" "Friendship!" "Revenge!" "Revenge!" "Friendship... ah dammit, you pulled a Bugs Bunny on me!"
starlIGHT
Twilight!
TWILIGHT
The shadow won't let go of him. He wants to stop, but he can't do it alone.
STARSWIRL
Then we must help him.
Sc 18 - Ext. Hollow shades - day
RaiNBOW DASH
YEAH! It felt sooooo good to do that again!
PiNKIE PIE
Friendship power rush! WOO!
"It's like heroin, but SAFE!"
RaRITY
The elements! They didn't disappear.
fluTTERSHY
Maybe because we used them for healing magic instead of banishing?
"Which is something that I should have suggested, being the element of kindness and all."
ApPLEJACK
Look!
StARSWIRL
Long ago you needed our help, Stygian, but instead of listening, we turned our backs on you. Pride clouded my judgment... And I owe you an apology.
"And I owe you an apology too for trying to destroy Equestri--ah, fuck it, we're doing unearned forgiveness this time,
I guess."
StARSWIRL (CONT'D)
Thank you for helping us see the errors of our ways, Twilight. It seems I never accounted for the magic of friendship.
TwILIGHT
Thank you, Swirlstar. Starswirl!
StARliGHT
AHEM. So apparently a conversation can save Equestria?
Only if you select the correct responses from the dialogue tree, otherwise you get the bad ending.
StARSWIRL
Something tells me I will be making a lot of apologies today.
Sc 19 - Int. canterlot castle - day
StaRSWIRL
I simply cannot believe how tall you've gotten!
CelESTIA
Well, it has been over a thousand years.
"Legs are like earlobes, apparently, and never stop growing."
Will you stay here and teach magic once again? My sister and I have such fond memories of your lessons.
lunA
As long as you don't ask for those essays we owed you before you disappeared.
"Wow, Luna, you sound different. Quieter. I like this."
StaRSWIRL
I am not certain Canterlot is where I belong. The realm has grown and I believe I'll have a look around before I settle in any one place.
MeaDOWBROOK
And I long to see what has become of my home.
MistMANE
I believe we all do.
CELESTIA
Then I hope you will return to Canterlot on occasion and share the wisdom of your great experience with the next generation of ponies.
Hopefully they don't drop a bridge on him like they did with Captain Kirk.
StaRSWIRL
We would be honored, but if it is wisdom you seek, look no further than your own pupil. She showed me that the power of friendship is a magical force indeed.
StARSWIRL (CONT'D)
And that in turning away from others, you hurt yourself as well.
TwILIGHT
It's funny...I thought meeting my idol would give me all the answers I ever wanted. But instead, I forgot what I already knew.
It's not your fault, Twilight. It's the writers'.
TwILIGHT (CONT'D)
Good thing I had a student of my own to remind me.
"Who will become equally dense as soon as she takes on a student of her own."[color]
Wow, that was really, really bad. The writers totally forgot the dark and foreboding Everfree Forest. They had everypony except for Starlight forget that it's possible to redeem villains. Even Fluttershy, who redeemed Discord, didn't seem keen on it at all. Stygian looked and sounded like a bad OC, and his motivations for being evil were almost as shallow as Discord's. And he didn't even have to apologize for being evil! Instead, it was all put on the good ponies to apologize for a misunderstanding that Stygian didn't have the smarts to clear up himself before embracing literally darkness. This episode was a real stinker. I don't plan on watching it when it comes out.
Check my most recent blog post.I've already watched all of season 7. Finale was pretty damn good.EDIT: blog post got deleted. Eh, you can still google it.
4691741
My main problems with it were...
1. Nopony else but Starlight bothered to ask about the possibility of redemption for the villain, not even the kindhearted Fluttershy
2. The writers seemingly forgot the dark and forboding Everfree Forest existed
3. Stygian's shallow motivations for turning evil.
4. He never had to apologize himself for being a villain. Remember when Luna had to apologize, and Starlight did? Instead in this episode they put his evil all on his friends.
5. There was never an explanation for how magic worked exactly. So Starswirl and his friends didn't need the Elements to banish themselves and Stygian to Limbo. But now, they need the Elements to do that?
4691758
1) Sure, but when the two most powerful and knowledgeable unicorns in the room (Twilight and Starswirl) are against the evil guy, you kinda go along and assume they know what they're doing. They were trusting Twilight's intuition. Starlight's way more disagreeable than Fluttershy, so I can understand why the former would throw an alternative in the air but not the latter. I guess you can bring up the Bats! episode to counter this point, but this was a much graver situation and Starswirl was present (who was the freaking teacher of Celestia and Luna). He was the competent one. I'd sure as hell trust his decisions.
2) Maybe, but I don't think it seriously detracted from the plot. That's like saying A Canterlot Wedding sucks because the writers forgot about Luna.
3) It wasn't shallow, just not thoroughly explained. Starlight turning evil because of one friend leaving? That's shallow. Stygian turns evil because no one recognized his usefulness for a span of years, despite his efforts, all while the other heroes got the glory? It's plausible. I do admit that they should have explored it more, but it could've been a lot worse.
4) Hmm, didn't really notice that. Fine, that's a valid point.
5) There could be a number of reasons. Maybe the magic changed over the course of a thousand years, or they got weaker, or the circumstances weren't right. But other than that, when is magic ever really explained in this show?
You could at least watch the finale. Cool visuals and music can make a difference from just reading the script.
This was worse then the season six final. It's like the writers were sitting around talking after the season six final and saying, "You know what that final needed: more Starlight. In the next final lets make everyone so stupid that Starlight is the only one who can point out basic logic."
Discord's motivations for being evil never bothered me, because he was chaos; he didn't need a reason beyond I'm bored and I would have been happy. Stygian, on the other hand, has a back story as bad as Starlight's, only far more edgy. It's to the point I'm afraid I will cut myself on it.
I thought Fame and Misfortune was the worse episode in the show, but somehow they made one even worse.
4691795
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4691795
1. Trusting his decisions regarding what magic to use is one thing, but we are discussing whether the magic even needed to be used in the first place. Fluttershy was the only one who tried to reform Discord. She should've at least put up an argument for reform once Starlight did. That would enable her to gather the courage to say something, knowing that she wasn't alone in feeling that way. I agree that Starlight is the natural malcontent of the group, but that doesn't mean she should be the only one protesting what is ultimately a non-magical decision. Strong-willed Applejack or Rainbow Dash also could've said something. Again, being best at magic doesn't entitle you to make life-or-death decisions like banishment.
2. Luna is nocturnal so her absence at least makes sense. But the Everfree is always in the same spot. It detracted in the sense that it's the darkest, most foreboding part of Equestria, and it wasn't even mentioned in passing. Instead we got Hollow Shades for some reason, which has never really been relevant to the plot up until this point. The Everfree is connected to the lore of the show in a way that Hollow Shades simply isn't. Call it a missed opportunity.
3. I'd question why the so-called heroes acted in such a dismissive manner towards one of their friends to start with, but evil should be proportional. Starlight never wanted to destroy Equestria; her time travel shenanigans led to consequences beyond her understanding. It was a tit-for-tat response that was appropriate, in her mind, given what the mane six had done to her town. As soon as she saw the consequences for Equestria, she softened her stance. Vs. Stygian who targeted all of Equestria because of a personal vendetta against the pillars. Fine, then why not just target the pillars? He was just being evil for the sake of evil, engaging in wanton destruction. Starlight never had those sorts of one-dimensional motivations.
5. I don't expect magic to be explained in the show beyond what is needed, but there was never a reason given for why the pillars had to go into limbo with the Pony of Shadows. If they were strong enough to create the elements, why couldn't they just use that power to seal him away? If they created the elements once, why couldn't they do it again to save the Tree of Harmony? The plot just seems to me to be a jumbled mess.
The visuals and the sound could be the best in the series, but without a good story to back it up, visuals and sound are useless. The Star Wars prequels had good visuals and sound. Visuals and sound are tools for telling a good story. They can't carry a broken story by themselves.
4691910
1) No, but experience and competence entitles you to make big decisions, and Starswirl had an abundance of that over ever other pony. The ponies didn't have any real reason to question him. Starlight did because, as we agree, that's her character.
2) Okay, replace the Hallow Shades with the Everfree Forest. What changes other than the superficial setting? They may as well be the same thing for the sake of the plot.
3) I disagree. Sombra is evil for the sake of being evil. Stygian had a lot of resentment slowly build up over time. His thoughts took a dark turn. It's the same reason why some teenagers go out and shoot up schools: resentment builds up in them over many years. This video explains it pretty well. It explains how if you brood over your worst misfortunes for long enough it can take you down a very dark path.
5) I chalk it up to sacrifice: sealing the Pillars was a one-time sacrifice, but now that Twilight released them, they had to find a different way. Yeah, it falls apart if you over-analyze it... just like any other two-parter falls apart under similar scrutiny.
Yeah, well, if you don't want to watch the finale, that's your decision. I'm just recommending you to.
The Mane 6 rarely redeem their villains - Nightmare Moon and Sunset were pure luck via rainbow blasts, Discord was forced upon them by Celestia and they were all harsh on them, threw out the Changelings, blasted Sombra, Flim and Flam not forgiven, Trixie shamed into weakness, Tirek friendship blasted to hell. Starlight was pretty much the first purposeful attempt at redemption, and that only happened because Twilight was out of options. The eventual Changeling redemption happened because Thorax was an outlier that proved they could be different. Sci-Twi was the only other real attempt and that was again done by a former villain - Sunset Shimmer while the Sirens were blasted and chased off.
So the idea that they like to redeem villains all the time is completely laughable.
It's honestly only Starlight and Sunset - both villains without possession - that try to redeem other villains. Luna rarely gives any input in any way.
As for the Everfree - it would honestly be annoying that the place was used once again like there's no other dark place. They actually had it make sense here - it was a hidden underground location that Stygion found the dark powers he needed and thus chose that place to refuel. As for anywhere else? Well, for starters, the dark places were based on old locations from a 1000 years ago and we didn't even see all the locations on the map because that wasn't the point but how much better Equestria was now.
It's true he didn't apologize, but then again it was only Starswirl who basically instigated it all by acting like a jerk in the first place.
As for motivation - we got a jealous sister, because I'm chaos, because I'm evil and hungry, because I'm evil and edgy, because plants, because I'm evil and power hungry, because my friend abandoned me and I overreact to everything, because I'm still evil and hungry, because I want more power, because popularity, because I want to win a high school game, because I'm nuts, because I want to be popular, and now because I did a lot of the hardwork and got zero recognition and then my friends came to the worst conclusion and banished me and was thus susceptible to the dark shadow that housed the place.
As for the magic? In the original spell, they used their artifacts to cast the banishment spell which Twilight in the first part even said was because it was harder to keep them between worlds. As for the usage of the Elements of Harmony - part of why they had to do it was because they were the original elementals here, so the Elements could work as substitutes for the spell. Plus being used in conjuction with the original elementals they were able to substitute whatever ancient make the henge had with them as well thus allowing for the spell to be used anywhere rather than a single location.
Honestly, you were being so nitpicky here that you missed the fact that it pretty much played out like your typical season opener and finale.
4692153
There is so many things wrong with what you just said that I could literally spend hours picking it apart, but that would feel like homework. So instead I'm going to just leave you with this:
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4692206
If you're going to refute, refute. Such a post as this is nothing more than blowing smoke as a means of to try and sell yourself as better without actually trying to engage in a form of conversation. Your words are smoke and blown in the wind.
4692211
Oh I never said I was better, just that your post got far too many things wrong for me to even bother trying to sort through.
4692220
Except it didn't.
Twilight never talked about saving Luna, but defeating Nightmare Moon. The fact it purified her was luck. Discord was just taken down by them, but thrust upon them to reform by Celestia. Other than Fluttershy who was given the task and bonded, the other five remained hostile until the season 4 finale. Chrysilis was treated as an enemy and expelled as one - no talks. Sombra was treated purely as an enemy and blasted to pieces as one. Tirek was an enemy and took a super laser to the face that weakened him and sent him back to Tartarus. Starlight was gven one interrupted speech in the opening and then told by Twilight she was there to stop her. During the finale of season 5, she tried to beat Starlight first and made no negotiations until it was clear she could only talk her down if they wanted to get past it. She played no part in the season 6 finale. Trixie was forgiven but not forgotten. Thorax wasn't someone who was reformed but an outlier who aligned with Equestria ideals and then thanks to prodding by Starlight showed what following his ideals did. Ember was never a villain and the dragons are forced by Ember to not attack them. Flim and Flam are not reformed. Lightning Dust was not reformed. Sunset Shimmer was luck like Luna. The Sirens were blasted and chased away. Twilight wasn't involved for any of the others. Juniper was Starlight who is all for reformation.
So, no the Mane 6 do not seek reformation as a means of dealing with villains.
Starswirl's locations are based on a thousand years ago and we don't see all of the locations. Thus can't confirm if Everfree was a choice or should have been a choice back then (the Castle of the Two Sisters was there after all).
Starswirl was the main cause of Stygeon's transformation through his arrogance. He even admits it. Stygeon was possessed and unlike Luna who was supposedly bitter pre-Nightmare Moon and transformed through it and Sunset who was shown to be bitter pre-transformation, it was more likely for him to be pushed because of his banishment and coercion of the shade.
His modem operendi is actually one of the few that isn't "just because I'm evil" having been coerced at his lowest point with the jealousy he felt (jealousy that would have him merely create duplicates of their great items to fight alongside them).
And, it was through their magic that the Tree of Harmony sprouted so their magic could substitute for the physical bodies necessary to push to limbo by completely upping their magical power thus draining them. Added with the original power, it also made them strong enough to open the rift to limbo and push the Shade in.
4692227
Nice explanation. I couldn't have said it better myself.
4692227
Except it did.
I'm still not in the mood to go over all of your errors, so I will just touch on the biggest one I see. Whether or not the main 6 meant to reform the villains or not is irreverent. The fact is that nearly every villain that appears in the show gets reformed in someway.
The idea that they like to redeem villains all the time is not completely laughable, because that's what happens over and over again.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go get chemotherapy for this cancer you gave me.
4692653
Except as I pointed out, most aren't reformed by choice of reformation by the Mane 6 but by coincidence or through others encouraging it. Reforming villains is not how the Mane 6 go about dealing with villains. And, of the major villains: Nightmare Moon was a coincidence, Discord was reformed later by Celestia's request, Chrysilis was blasted off, Sombra was blown up, Tirek sent back to Tartarus, and Starlight reformed. So far, only Discord and Starlight had purposeful reformations and neither were done as a first choice in dealing with them.
Trying to claim that reformation is what they do is factually incorrect no matter how much you try to say it. So, I'll say it again, two out of five major villains were reformed. Chrysilis was given the choice by Starlight. Add in EQG and we got lucky with Sunset like Nightmare Moon and the Sirens weren't given a chance.
And, intent does matter because the argument is that the Mane 6 always reforms their villains when that's just plain not true and it's rarely an intentional outcome of events (so far Starlight,Sci-Twi, Juniper, and Stygeon are the only intentional reformations, and three of them are done by former villains themselves).
4692706
And I as I pointed out the main 6's intentions are irreverent. The villeins were still reformed. Seriously, if we are just going to go back an forth with the same arguments then any discussion is pointless.
4692722
But, intentions are not irrelevant because the characters not choosing to reform him rather than banish is in character for them. And, again, only one was purposefully reformed by the Mane 6 and one was reformed because Celestia asked them to do so long after his defeat. Two were reformed by chance and not intent. The others were just taken care of like villains.
The author's issue is that reforming villains is what they do, but it's not. Your argument does not validate his claims on it being a problem they didn't intentionally try to reform the Pony of Shadows because it is not out of character for them to do so.
This is why I call your words smoke - they lack substance. You are just going to the result rather than paying attention to the intent and characterization. If it was Starlight who was all for banishment, that would be out of character. Like Sunset, Starlight is more empathetic to villains because of her past and thus more willing to reform. That's a major part of her character.
So, explain to me, why is it an issue that the Mane 6 didn't attempt to reform the Pony of Shadows?
4692847
My main issue with it is that it shows a lack of learning and character development on their part. After villains reformed by them (Discord, Starlight), or with their direct involvement (Luna) you would expect them to eventually start to connect the dots. Pinkie even mentions in this episode how many villains they have dealt with. As Applejack would say, "I didn't learn anything!"
The fact that they didn't even ask about who this guy Stygian was even though they had all the chance in the world while traveling with the pillars to far-flung corners of Equestria? That is just straight up out of character. They should at least be curious about the chance of reform, perhaps bring it up as a possibility, and then Starlight could still be the main advocate for it, but then at least I know that there is some sort of growth and character development. As of now the only character receiving any development is Starlight. I'm a huge fan of her, but she should never steal the spotlight as brazenly as the writers had her do.
4692847
I never said it was. I was addressing your comment on intent to reform, which as I stated, is irrelevant due to the fact that they were reformed.
This may be a bad analogy but stick with me: say someone gets shot but the gunman says they never intended to shot them they only wanted to scar them. At the moment of getting shot the gunman's intentions become meaningless because he did shot the person.
The main 6 may not set out to reform said villeins but it's the end results that count.
As for Starlight, she is more willing to reform because she is the writers pet. In this episode she is more of an empath then Deanna Troi (star trek reference). In other episodes she can use OP magic to swap cutie marks around. Starlight's 'character' is what ever the writer think will serve the plot best and make her look good at the same time.
4692896
Here I would disagree with you, I think that up until this episode the writers did a fairly decent job at keeping their "preference" for Starlight relevant to a believable plot. Switching the princesses' cutie marks was absolutely necessary due to their past history with Nightmare Moon. Starlight had already used cutie mark magic in her very first appearance so it wasn't OP given that she already did it... unless in your mind it's OP to have a villain use it.
Having her be the only advocate for reform was where they crossed the line into having the plot be overly Starlight-centric when it didn't really need to be. Starlight's character is that she is naturally the malcontent of the group, and that is reflected in this episode... at the detriment of giving any other character a chance to shine or show development. Okay writers, we get it, Starlight is a good pony now. But did anyone else learn anything from their reforming, intentional or not? Nope.
You hit the nail on the head with intent, though. It doesn't matter if they initially intended to reform a villain. It was, as Bob Ross says, a happy little accident.... that they should have LEARNED from!
4692925
Some episodes have been more obvious then others, but I will agree with you on that. And yes this episode was very Starlight-centric.
No I don't think swapping cutie marks itself is OP magic, it's more in how effortlessly she does it, (However this may be more due to how poorly the magic in this show is explained) but my main point was that she uses OP magic and a lot of the time it doesn't come off as believable that she would know this stuff.
4692890
Except you have Chrysilis who just rejected reformation, Sombra who was just evil, and Tirek who is just evil. Then you have Discord who took a huge amount of effort to reform, and Starlight who could only be conviced by showing her the terrible future, diving into her past, and pleading with her. Luna was reformed thanks to the elements and the originals as it were couldn't even do that for the Pony of Shadows.
As for wanting to know his past? They never ask this. Never. Even Starlight's was initiated by her.
Learning? There was nothing to learn. You are taking happenstance and applying it as if its normal and constant. It is neither. There's no pattern to it to learn from, and time was of the essence.
4692968
Starlight's lack of a formal magic education, given everything she knows, is incongruous, I agree. How does she know all of these spells without going to school? My headcanon is that she experiments a lot with magic and just uses what works, and occasionally she hits up a public library like Twilight's treehouse used to be, and then just reads from magic books.
BTW I plan on posting a Starlight story soon, which attempts to give her a more consistent character . If you're interested, you should please follow me so that you'll see it
4692971
Personally I think that Discord's reformation was one of the biggest mistakes that the show has ever made, because now they have to explain why he can't just come along and snap his fingers and make everything better. Where was Discord in the finale? They could've relied on his magic quite a bit; I doubt a single unicorn like Stygian could stand up to him.
Chrysalis herself rejected the chance for reformation, but most of the other changelings seemed keen on it. I think that experience should've taught the mane six that everypony is different and some can be reformed, others cannot. They should have learned this over the course of seven seasons. What did the pillars and the mane six talk about on the train, or however else they got to
Twilight's Castle and Manehattan and back? The weather? Twelve ponies and not one of them evens mentions reformation as a possibility? I'm not buying it. It's not that much of a stretch for someone to suggest. Fluttershy could've piped up... unless the writers are still playing the "shyness" card with her.
4692896
I heavily disagree here. First of all, Starlight since her reformation has been shown to be the first to think of possible reformation - she was the first to show signs of agreeing with Spike about Thorax in "To Change a Changeling", she was the one that pushed for the other Changelings to follow Thorax example of giving love and made an attempt to reform Chrysilis in "To Where and Back Again", and she was the one that pushed for Juniper to turn to normal in "Mirror Magic". Add that with her ability to get along with Discord ("Celestial Advice") and her friendship with Trixie based on the pasts ("No Second Prances") it shows Starlight as a character all about believing in reformation and second chances. Something the Mane 6 are willing to give, but not willing to seek out.
Furthermore, intention does in fact play into characterization as well as frequency. Their villains rarely reform and especially not on their first visit. Not just the huge villains either. Look at Svengallop. Look at Lightning Dust. Or Flim and Flam. Look at the season long arc it took with Discord. Most of their villains do not go for reformation until honestly completely cornered or because of magic forced it upon them. History only speaks of two occasions of purposeful reformation and both took extremes - Starlight literally seeing it would be the end of the world and Discord being betrayed and stipped of his magic - to do so. The Mane Six seek to defeat evil, not reform bad guys and it would be out of character for them to just start believing they can.
4693047
I think we're talking past each other. I agree with you that Starlight should've been pro-reformation. She could've even been the first to suggest it. But to have nopony else take her side and make her the sole voice in the wilderness is out of character for ponies who are supposed to be learning friendship lessons. Shouldn't at some point it have sunk in that, "Even the darkest villains can find redemption?" At the very least they could've entertained the idea, but nopony even considered Starlight's idea remotely possible until the end, by which point it was already working.
4693047
For the first part:
The second part is just a rehash of what I have already addressed.
4692993
Discord lives in a different dimension that takes effort to reach. He comes and goes as he pleases.
Anyway, over the course of seven seasons, only two villains reformed. Nightmare Moon too, but that was by super magical force so it wasn't exactly by choice. If anything, they would learn that most villains are not likely to become good guys. And, the fact is, none of the Mane 6 ever intend on doing so. It would be weirder if they suggested it because its never been an intention of yours. Experience has taught them that most bad ponies stay bad ponies.
You are trying to speak of learning but go through the seasons - season one was a magical force to return Luna but was intended on destroying, Discord was turned to stone, Chrysilis thrown out, Sombra blasted to pieces, magical plants destroyed, Tirek sent back to Tartarus, Starlight chased from the village, Starlight talked down after force failed to work, magical artifact restored, Chrysilis rejects friendship and runs away, and Celestia gives advice. Past experiences teach that reformation is the unlikely choice in success, and it is in fact only recently that it has become more possible because Starlight - a former villain - is more open to the idea of redemption.
As for talks on the train? Well, I mean, there's the whole "What'd we miss the last 1000 years" thing, y'know.
4693063
I dunno, "Every Little Thing She Does" and "All Bottled Up" portrayed Starlight as making pretty big mistakes with magic. Not exactly a flattering depiction.
4693059
The darkest villains tend to not be reformed and reject it until pushed into a corner that it becomes better to reform. And, you are forgetting the fact that Twilight believed that the pillars would have already tried and failed before reaching the point of banishment. Twilight saying that would also sway the others.
Starlight spent most of the episode prodding Twilight about it. The same Twilight who is known to be biased in her idol's favor and Starswirl is up there with Princess Celestia for her. That is one of her biggest character flaws. Starlight is known for being less biased because of her past experiences and impulsive personality.
But, the fact remains that when Starlight prodded, Twilight's first response is "I'm sure they did try" because of her belief in the best of her idols.
4693077
Well the looking good part can be depended on the episode, but her character is still largely depended on the plot of the day.
This riff was more entertaining than the episode itself.
4696591
Glad you liked it!
4692993
Well considering that in Every Little Thing She Does, it kinda shows us that Starlight has been mixing spells, so by going through that logic it could be assumed that Starlight has been experiment with these spells via trial and error which eventually culminated in the spell that she used to enslave that village of hers.