Lady Antiquity Antipathy: Success or Failure? · 3:12pm Sep 24th, 2017
So many comments from readers who want Antiquity to die after this arc. I wonder whether or not I can call her a successful villain from that? The best villains are those you love to hate, but for me that hardly ever means wishing them dead. When I love to hate a villain, nothing is more satisfying than imagining their future interactions with the character. Death doesn't usually factor into that desire because their death would be a finality that ends future interactions, if that makes sense. It's a natural conclusion in a lot of cases, but it isn't what I want from a villain when I love to hate them.
So is Antiquity a success if I'm getting comments she should die? Honestly, I'm not sure. I'd at least say I got a stronger reaction than I was expecting. This was, after all, a single introduction arc. That's probably for the best, though. I'm not sure when Antiquity herself will show up again.
I mean, one of the biggest problems with dC/dt is arguably the limiting perspectives. Don't get me wrong. The first person has excelled in getting people invested in Twi and Mo, if I do say so myself, but it also leads to a lot of things happening off screen readers don't know about. I'll arguably need to write an entire side story for Chrysalis when I'm done with dC/dt, and now I might need to do so for Antiquity and Carapace.
Regardless, let me know what you think of Antiquity.
Honestly it's more like they missed the massive difference and the reasons she's the way say she is.
She's cruel, manipulative and vile but thats whats allowed her to survive and thrive and has been ingrained by those who came before her and is a reinforced behavior.
Does she need some form of comeuppence?
Yes, but so do a lot of the good guys in Mlp in general and they typically do something withou even caring of the greater consequences and get to walk with a simple sorry.
Not read the latest chapter, but I like what else I've seen of her, she seems like an interesting character for Mo and Twilight to go up against, however long that fight ends up being.
She's an interesting villain, yes, but my desire to see her beaten and eventually killed comes from the fact that she's arguably done more damage than Chrysalis at this point. So far as we're aware, no one died as a result of Chrysalis' actions.
Plus the whole poisoning Twilight thing.
Well, it's not like you're going to listen to feedback so I'm not going to waste my time with a proper explanation this time, but the problem was her coming back to make things worse.
For me there is no love to have situation in regards to this villain. Only absolute loathing of her character archetype. I haven't even been able to read the story after the chapter that introduced her, because of how much her kind disgusts me and what she implies. To me, her surviving and prospering in any way or form is a clear indication of a society so rotten that if I survived meeting her, I would fully support any and all efforts purge her and any willing to work for her no matter the personal cost to myself. Heck, whenever I find one of her type in a story, I start wishing I could just step into the story to put a several bolter rounds into the bastard just to cleanse the world of such filth.
Sorry about getting a bit over emotional there but "Make sure to cause as much misery as possible" are in my eyes a cliche I never want to encounter. The archetype is usually a paper thin villain with no understanding of how the world works beyond their immediate gains.
Then again my bursts of anger might be have been caused by the total tone shift and my hatred of the plot type that's apparently starting.
And then there is the "Intelligent MC is suddenly a complete moron for plot convenience" trope that I keep running into far too often. Twilight had been warned several times that some changeling use poisons and what does she decide to do? Drink tea with a clearly hostile or at the very least extremely suspicious changeling?
Don't get me wrong. Your world building and character development have been enjoyable and most of the story has been treat to read, but the last few use elements, I absolutely hate, heavily.
And somehow what I intended as a short little message, turned into a long rant. Sorry about that. I really need to get some proper sleep one of these days. I get far too emotional and wordy when I haven't gotten enough sleep in a while.
4677500
Shrug. To be honest, I had reservations about that myself. It was decided mostly from the fact that I believed Twilight fully capable of shutting the riots down right then and there when she was talking to the city. Except for a few outliers, most ponies were thinking about what she said, and that was dangerous to Antiquity's plan.
4677556
I have a saying that "Cliches are just classics that are used more often. What you really want to watch out for are cli-shits." Is she cliche? Maybe. I can see why you'd say that, but it's really all a matter of perspective. I honestly pity her myself. She's just a result of her upbringing. She has no grand motives or master plan beyond that to accumulate power and make sure others know it, so if she ever succeeds she's probably going to end up just as miserable as her subjects even if she'll deny it fervently.
I would love to weigh in, but I'm just starting Heart to Heart today... I'm guessing that I just found major spoilers?
4677556
Don't feel bad, you are 100% right about this. The only little caveat I would bring up is that her first appearance could have been an act to draw out a desired reaction, but the fact that she comes back makes it crystal clear that this is not the case and that she really is the unbelievable, shallow, evil bitch stereotype you rightly hate because it clearly shows a lack of genuine thought into the thoughts and motives of the character which are required to make a truly engaging antagonist.
4677587
Her plan was to be a distraction.
Also, this post right here highlights exactly the kind of behavior that makes giving you useful feedback a waste of time.
4677600
Shrug. Well I mean, it still is useful feedback to me. I like knowing what others think, and it's not like I'm denying she's shallow, but she was kind of meant to be -- at least as you two are defining it -- if that makes any sense? Her world view is meant to be twisted and jaded to the point it doesn't accurately reflect how the world actually works. In a land where friendship rules, she's deluded into thinking misery is the ultimate weapon.
And sometimes people are like that. Some people just delight in other's misery. So I don't quite understand your problem with her, but at least I'm aware of it now. Being aware of it means I can mull over the matter. Whether I act on it is a different question, but the fact people are raising the point is still useful. That's why I asked in the first place.
4677556
Whoops. Forgot the apology part in my first reply.
I'm sorry if you don't like this arc, but it needed to happen -- mostly because I needed to do more than hint at everything going on outside of Ponyville. It's a necessity to sprinkle a few more dramatic arcs in because not everypony is as friendly and tolerant as Ponyville and not everyling wants peace. I've spent over 200k words developing the characters. At some point, the plot needed to kick forward, though. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it had to happen at some point.
You should be happy to know that there are still arcs meant for the character building though. The next arc is, unfortunately for you, the second half of the riots -- namely how Mo deals with Carapace -- but after that we should be getting a Hearthswarming arc. I'm not abandoning the character building or anything. I just have to do more than hint at problems in the background every so often if I ever want to conclude the story.
It's like... Well, I don't want to belittle his work by comparing myself to him, but have you read Everythings Better With Robots by I think it was The Hat Man? Wonderful story, but it kinda faced the same issue. Eventually, the plot just has to happen even if you're having fun with all the fluffier arcs.
4677650
Moving the plot forward does not require stupid drama with poorly written characters, and if you actually listened to and acted on feedback you would understand that.
4677656
I wrote this entire arc based on a long and detailed talk with my editor and their feedback on the story as a whole -- an editor that provided much more useful feedback than your currently giving me -- so don't give me the not listening crap. Hell, your friend gave me much more useful feedback than you did on your own position in our other argument when he stepped in as mediator, so maybe that says something about what you think feedback is.
Just because I don't instantly agree or change things doesn't mean I'm not considering them. Did you know, for example, I'm still mulling over the idea that a breakup between AJ and Dash might be useful to the story, and that I'm actually intrigued by how well the idea of HeraXRD might be once it was pointed out by that other person and you?
4677668
Well, maybe you should have said that earlier. AdmiralTigerclaw sent me the PM log, and we both agreed that your response was to shove your fingers in your ears and go "la la la, not listening!" rather than actually consider our argument.
Also, contrary to what you are trying to present here, we were both saying exactly the same thing and he didn't mediate anything. He simply took over presenting my argument after I told him you were being an idiot.
4677681
Yes, I know you were both arguing the same thing. The difference was Admiral had tact about it so I could actually listen. You just go on and on about how wrong I am. Admiral was polite enough to make his point and then listen to what I had to say back -- even if he thought I was an idiot. There was an exchange of ideas. A give and take. Feedback given and received in kind. That is why I'm still considering both your points on the matter. I can't promise I'll act on them, but I'm not just ignoring them.
I find her to be fun. I don't loathe her in the way you intend... But Max Cash in Harmony Theory owns that space in my heart. (and in certain ways eventually Charisma although it was more pity with her once you understood her.)
We need more investment in her and she can't be a flat character, if you want us to like her we need more than "oooh she's evil. Look at her evil!"
The poisoning? nnnn.... Sure, that can work but you'd get more of your goal from her having played Twilight, maybe have her constantly hinting stuff poisoned but it isn't. Throwing the changeling at the crowd? That's evil for evil's sake, that's not going to endear her to us, yes it gets that changeling involved in the story and generates sympathy for her. BUT it poisons us against Antipathy not JUST because she did it but because it didn't suit her character. You have to be creative if you want us to like a villain. Want her to seem callus? Have a random changeling serving her and Twilight die and she just giggles and comments on how that changeling must have touched the saucer with the contact poison or sat in the chair with the hidden cyanide needle in the cushion. As much as I feel you dropped the ball later on, you did do a good job of setting her up as a character that enjoys "playing with her food" mentally and using poison to get her way, even have her use something as odd as a love poison to get Twilight distracted and unable to focus.
I know these ideas sound like I'm trying to turn her into a 1 note character but at the same time if your fans expect someone to get poisoned every time she's in the room (even if it's some random guard found asleep on his hooves from a sleep dart) then they'll start looking forward to seeing what inventive or unique poison or delivery method she's going to use next.
Also my suggestion is just ignore D48. He's become one of the more toxic commenters on the site.
:Edit:
You'll notice I gave abnormal suggestions. I agree with others here that she's a bit too 1 note evil. Just because she poisons everyone doesn't mean it needs to be lethal, in fact the non-lethal route would probably be better for her most of the time, especially when dealing with ponies/food where killing them means less food to her already starving people.
4677822
Hmm... Thanks for the advice. In all honesty, I probably shouldn't have had Antiquity reappear where she did, and it shows in that scene being a bit weaker, but I had basically written myself into a small corner. I had hinted at how the Manehatten Riots were a big deal, but, since I write with a lot of improve, I hit a point where Twilight would have resolved everything without them actually having the kind of impact they _should_ have had. Like, I couldn't have written the fire scene -- or rather any of the scenes I wanted to show the severity of the Riots -- without Antiquity restarting the panic when it faltered. I guess I could have rewritten that part with Twilight, but it felt like a disservice to Twilight's character to not have her almost succeed in stopping the riots all on her own.
As to how to handle Antiquity, I unfortunately can't use your advice. As much as I'd like to, Mo just won't excuse her actions here. If I want to portray her like you advised... Well, I'd probably need a side story. It's not something I'm opposed to, of course, but it'll make a lot more work, so I'll need to think on it.
4677697
I always listen, and I am always clear, direct, and honest even when that honesty isn't what you want to hear. You may not like it, but plenty of other people around here value that kind of useful, actionable feedback, and my general stance is that if you don't want to face reality it's not my problem.
4677868
*shrugs* I never mind stepping in for a bit to do consulting. It's been awhile since I've done it.
4677920
Clearly somebody needs to rewatch Honest Apple. Having tact matters when you're giving feedback, otherwise people are liable to ignore what you say, even if it has value. And if that happens, it can't really be called feedback, can it?
4677969
In my experience, sugarcoating things like that tends to cause far more miscommunication than being blunt because most people can understand the difference between being direct and being rude. This is even more true of people I deal with on a regular basis since they get used to my direct approach very quickly, and they are generally far more important than people I only deal with once or twice.
4677979
Shrug. I've had much more experience in the opposite being true. I can't tell you how many times being blunt with my reasoning has done nothing but make people ignore a critique of mine -- or worse actively avoid taking my advice in the future. In fact, it's arguably hypocritical of me to tell you tact matters, but such is life.
My honest thoughts? She is too severe a villain for the story you are actually writing. You seem to be trying to write a much more serious story than you are actually accomplishing. The whole story has felt like a light hearted slice of life. It began with serious overtones, but every time you've tried to make a more serious plot point it seems to fall flat, don't know why but they just don't fit.
4678081
Hmm? That is actually one of the things I worry about most. I mean, I've only really hinted at the problems faced outside of Ponyville, and, while not every city is Manehatten either, I wanted to show not everypony or everyling is onboard with the integration. It might just be a consequence of everything being so character driven that any time I try to progress the actual story things it doesn't work for you.
What other serious points have fallen flat for you?