"Little Girl's Show, My Flank." · 3:58pm Jul 28th, 2014
You know that little voice that tells you when something may not be such a good idea? Well, mine's yelling at me right now about this post. Oh well, I do need to get this off my chest, so let's hope it doesn't blow up in my face. Or start a flame war.
Remember the Season 4 finale? The one with Avatar Twilight badassery? Well, it kind of dominated conversations between fans for some time after it aired. And what made me a little uncomfortable was that a fairly large portion (from my observation) of comments were along the lines of "MLP is a little girl's show? Yeah, right."
Now, I understand that some folks might've been using that statement to poke fun at the discrepancy in quality between shows aimed at girls and those aimed at boys, but I can't shake off the feeling that too many people sincerely believe that MLP's quality somehow elevates it above the status of 'show for little girls'.
This attitude bothers me because it kind of implies that girl's shows are automatically inferior. Or that a guy's approval is a mark of quality. Saying "Little girl's show, my ass," is almost like saying "This show is awesome. Therefore, it can't possibly be made for little girls." Or, at least, that seems to be the spirit in which most people use that statement or similar ones. It doesn't seem very fair to the ladies, does it? I suspect girls won't be too happy if someone told them that their favourite cartoon isn't really meant for them because it is too awesome.
Try looking at it this way:
- MLP has badass scenes in it. Therefore, it's not a little girl's show.
- This grown-up guy likes MLP. Therefore, he's not a real man.
I'm pretty sure that neither of these are fair assessments.
Basically, what I'm trying to say this this: My Little Pony still appears to be very much a little girl's show, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. The badass energy battles do not nullify the fact that it's about colourful magical ponies and princesses any more than a guy's love for MLP could nullify the rest of his traits that define him as a man. If a someone feels the need to preserve his masculinity/adulthood in a conversation, can't we instead say that it's a show for little girls and everyone else? Or preferably, skip the urge to defend walls that don't need to exist in the first place and just say, "So what if it's for little girls? It's still awesome!"
First of all: even if your statement maybe be polemic, you´re doing it in such a nice way that it does not deserve any punishment. Well, sure, this is the internet, we´ll still beat the living crap out of you just for the love of our lower god, The Troll. But being nice helps a lot.
In second place, IMHO, the "little girl´s show, right ?" thing is related to a something completly different. First, the violence level. let´s get real: season 4 is VERY violent. No blood, no severedd bodies but, still, it´s very violent for it´s target public. And i´m talking as a DBZ fan. Samurai Jack showed us you don´t need to go all gore, showing every little detail, to be a violent show.
Another thing: usually those lighter shows have a status quo that never, EVER, changes. One char uses a diferent outfit, a new char is introduced, but things NEVER really change. Then come MLP and they obliterate the main scenario of the show. Personally, this was even more choking then the fight itself, the place where 90% of the show happens burned to the very ground. And, again: VIOLENCE ! The place was decimated in a murder atempet !!!! No, scratch that...a DOUBLE murder atempet !!!! Owlicious is as much sentient as Spike !
So those two points, only trying to be short, probably with more time, and talent, i could point more things, alone are enough to say that the it is not a "little girl´s show" (not in a way that implies that little girl´s shows are bad, they are only not that intense) argument is valid, at least when it comes to season 4 ending.
Sorry in advance for my bad english, not my native language.
2322897
Don't forget PowerPuff Girls
Its a little girl show with blood and violence
I prefer to look at MLP as a show that is for EVERYONE, from little boys and girls, to the toughest men and women out there.
Not 'automatically,' rather 'historically.' There is no implication: shows made for little girls, with very few exceptions, ARE inferior, at least in terms of things guys value in a show, in numerous dimensions, including story, character development, and usually production values. This is readily observable.
Indeed, Laurin explicitly stated that MLP FIM was NOT for little girls, but rather was intended for all ages. The story, character development, and production values are, in accordance with historical trends relating to age-based marketing, very high quality. If Lauren had intended the show to be aimed directly and exclusively at little girls, the resulting production would likely better resemble previous generations of MLP, instead of what we know as FIM today.
I think you are misunderstanding the use of the word "awesome." Awesome is a relative, and personally subjective term to describe a thing's perceived quality. You must evaluate these phrases in the context of the speaker and listener. I know several girls who dislike FIM because "it's so different from the classic MLP. I liked them better." My insistence that the show was awesome did nothing to sway their opinions.
When guys say "FIM is awesome," they are saying that, as males, for those aspects of quality for which they currently and historically value in a show (good, deep story, complex characters, theme progression, good use of action, high production values, and subject matter that speaks to their human condition), they find FIM to score very high. The point is emphasized repeatedly because of the historic stereotype that classic MLP intentionally generated for itself. By guys emphasizing, that this show is not (explicitly) for little girls, through sarcastic statements you mention, they are assuring other guys that the historical trend does not apply here and they should give the show a chance.
You may of course argue that girls want the same things in their shows, and indeed some do. But not all. The past 30 or 40 years of marketing to children has given two generations more than enough time to vote with their feet. If the vast majority of women and girls wanted the same kinds of things men did in a show, one of two things would have already happened: nearly all show makers would have adjusted their productions to speak to these differing values, or most women would be watch "shows for men" exclusively. Neither of these things has happened.
My conclusion is that, in general, men and women value different things, and that this is ok. Guys do not generally like shows aimed directly at women, just as women generally do not like shows aimed directly at men.
I have made similar sounding comments about the Season 4 finale, but it didn't have to do with me being of the opinion that the show was 'too good to be considered a girl's show'. My comments were in light of a 3 minute battle that was more satisfying than a 30-episode Dragon Ball Z slugfest.
I guess that your own Avatar analogy could have merit, though: the Avatar final slugfest only lasted 10 minutes, against some three episodes to the simplest, most boring Krillin death scene.
To quote Count Rugen, "Well spoken, sir."
2323207
My source for my statements, third paragraph, first sentence:
ic.pics.livejournal.com/athelind/730089/5661/5661_original.png
2323389
I do not dispute this. If boys want to enjoy traditionally girl things, that's fine. I know I do. I liked horses, rainbows, cutely drawn things, and couple girl-focused animes long before FIM came on the scene. If girls want to enjoy traditionally boy things, that's fine. I know some girls that do.
Exactly my point: historically, girl-focused programming has been what most men (and girls who also value the same things) consider, "low quality."
She states it clearly: she intended the show for more than just girls, such that all ages and genders can enjoy it. FIM did, in fact, market to all ages, and it was, in fact, successful in part because of this. I only claim that, were the situation different, and someone was tasked with making an exclusively little girl show, the result would end up being what is considered the stereotypical little girl show content, i.e. "low quality," 9 times out of 10. That is why this stereotype exists: it happens all the time.
As a challenge, can anyone list for me some shows that were explicitly designed exclusively for girls or women, yet has a large following among boys or men? I do not claim that the other side exists, mind you. I personally don't know of any show explicitly and exclusively designed for boys or men for which girls and women flock to. Every show I know that is popular among both groups was designed to appeal to both groups.
She literally says:
"I didn't create this show for little girls". Obviously, given the context, she is not saying she was designing the show to EXCLUDE little girls. I agree with you there. She's obviously saying she made the show for everybody, all ages and genders. As a show directed at all ages and genders, it is not "directed at girls (exclusively)". That is all I'm saying. You can't call a "show designed for everybody" a "girl's show." That would conflate "girl" to mean "everybody."
Good entertainment can be enjoyed by anyone who can appreciate good entertainment. Gender based entertainment is like meme pandering, a joke only a portion will even care about. There's a broad range of things people can appreciate.
The songs, many of which go way beyond what I think all of us expect from a cartoon. The animations carry well, eye catching and while there are errors in a lot of cases they can be pretty funny. The voices, professionally done. The episodes can be amusingly silly and serious enough to be satisfying.
It even tries to teach people important lessons, most shows are JUST entertainment and avoid anything legitimately meaningful. Admittedly, the lessons can be iffy and a bit light but even trying seems to be something most shows are too terrified to do.
Remember when we could watch television and not argue over who the intended audience is?
Honestly, I think you are looking at that statement wrong. My experience has generally been that men and women can and do like most of the same things from MLP to wargames, so I think that trying to apply gender to things is silly.
What does stick out to me in the statement "not for little girls" is the word "little" because FIM is unarguably far better than the vast majority of children's programming regardless of target gender. While the older generations of MLP were terrible, that is really no different from many of the little boy shows like Power Rangers and Transformers which were just as painfully shallow. We just tend to have fond memories of them because of nostalgia which can make them enjoyable to watch even now, and this is especially obvious if you did not really watch them as a kid so watching them as an adult tends to be painfully bad just like going back to watch the older generations of MLP.
2323557
Alright, that's fair. I was not aware of those quotes by Lauren. I only knew about the older quote about her gearing the show to be entertaining both to little girls and their parents, including male parents, which I personally interpret to mean 'all age groups and genders', but it is possible Lauren had something slightly different in mind.
It's not a hard line. It's a soft line, and hard to grab a hold of. That's why I keep using words like 'generally' and 'usually' and '9 out of 10 times' and 'mostly' and 'trends'. There are and have been examples of high quality (in my subjective view) programming aimed at little girls prior to MLP:FIM. But, as I said, it is readily observable that this is not the typical or historical trend, hence the statements people often make. If we classify things that way, FIM would not be considered a "girl's show," because it only resembles older girls shows on a superficial level (the species of the primary characters). If you want to classify shows as girl shows or boy shows by their relative horse-to-human content, absolutely, there can be no show more 'intended for girls' than My Little Pony. However, for the purposes of this discussion, I classify the shows as 'for girls', 'for boys', and 'for everyone' based on the historical trends, namely the subjective qualities generally more highly valued by males, which is the subject of this discussion.
I agree, though. Entertainment is entertainment. People should be able to like what they like, that's fine.
It's not so much as it is "this is awesome, so it isn't for little girls" it's more like "this giant energy-blasting DBZ-style fight scene is what you would expect in entertainment explicitly for little boys." Props for violating gender stereotypes even more, MLP, I suppose.
Thumbs up to this. I really have nothing to disagree with in this post, but I wanted to express my support for what you are saying.
I know exactly what you mean and I get flak quite often when I say that it isn't a little girls show.
But, when I say that, I don't mean that little girls can't watch it and neither that it is nothing for them.
What I mean when I say "It's not a little girls show." is "It's a show for everyone, not just for little girls."
Hasbro can see it as a little girls show and probably still sees it like that (despite that it releases, in the meanwhile, merchandise and fan articles that are clearly not aimed at just little girls), but in the end, what determines what type of show it is, is the way how the show is made and presented.
If My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic would be just about pretty dresses, birthdays and tea parties, and if it would have a kitschy style, like it was the case with G3, then it would be a true little girls show, and only that, because most little girls are interested in things like that.
But instead of the things mentioned above, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has mature topics, and a (sometimes even extreme) dark story, epicness, laser battles, black parasites that feed of ponies, DBZ-style battles (since the S4 finale) and a general style that is not just appealing for little girls, but for everyone.
I don't say that the show is nothing for little girls because it's awesome and I agree with you on the view that this would be an insult.
But what I say is that the term "little girls show" isn't fitting and that everyone should replace it with "family show" because My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is exactly that, a family show. Not a little girls show.
Even Lauren Faust herself, whose words are valued so much by bronies, says that she "did not make this show for little girls, but for little girls AND their parents, including MALE parents".
So it's just naturally that this show contains things adult men are interested in too and again Lauren Faust herself said that it "only stands to reason that adult animations fans without children may like it too".
And also because to call it a "little girls show" is something that does neither do justice to the nature of the show, that contains things grown-up men are interested in as well, nor to the huge adult fanbase.
Calling it a "little girls show" is like saying "It's a show only for little girls.", which is just not true.
And aside from that, it also gives the show a wrong image to outsiders who don't know it yet and makes it harder to get others to watch it, when it's called a "little girls show".
Because when people hear "little girls show" they immediately think of all things girly and thus, confuse G4 with it's G3 and G1 past.
And then they will never watch it, at least not until a brony ties them to a chair and forces them to watch some episodes so that they can see the awesomeness.
It's bad for the image of "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" to call it a "little girls show".
And another reason why it's not okay to call it that is, because this term fuels the machines of haters, that accuse bronies of "invading a little girls show".
Try to look at it that way:
Little girls can certainly be interested in epic magic laser battles and things like that, but would a grown-up man be interested in a G3-style show about girly tea parties, dressing up and making yourself up?
Certainly not.
These things are only interesting for little girls (not necessarily for all little girls, but for most), but epic laser battles, changelings, dark rulers that give you nightmares, dark, epic storylines in general, these are things every audience is interested in, from little girls to adult men.
And this is the point here; the shows' elements, that define which kind of show it is, contain things that are not just for little girls, but also for everyone else, for boys, for adult women and for adult men, interesting, and this is it what elevates My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic from a little girls show to, as I already said, a family show.
It's just that some bronies, when you say "it's not a little girls show.", for the reasons I named above, and when you just mean with that "Look guys, you shouldn't call it a little girls show when it's made for a broader audience than just little girls and when it has elements that are appealing to everyone, not just little girls." immediately hear "It's nothing for little girls."
Which no one is saying. Some bronies are too sensitive about this.
TL;DR: My Little Pony Friendship is Magic is not a little girls show, but a family show, cause it contains elements that are interesting for every audience, not just little girls, but that does NOT mean it is nothing for little girls to watch, and it shouldn't be called a "little girls show", because this term doesn't to the style and type of the show and it's broad audience justice, because it gives MLP: FiM a bad image and because even Lauren Faust herself said that she did not make this show for little girls.
And to add something personal especially for you:
>>>The badass energy battles do not nullify the fact that it's about colourful magical ponies and princesses<<<
Forgive me if I understand this statement wrong, but this sounds like you're, despite four seasons of MLP: FiM that proofed the opposite, still think: Ponies and princesses = Little girls.
This is something that is not true either.
It doesn't matter if a show is about strong, badass human soldiers or colorful little ponies and their pony princesses.
It all depends on the style and this is already quite easy to see if you look at the difference between G3 and Friendship is Magic.
Where one show was kitschy, girly, childish and just overall stupid and bland, the other one is epic, exciting, mature and very, very dark.
You can make every concept, no matter how bland it may seem at the beginning, epic and awesome; this show could be about cute little teddy bears and it would still be epic and awesome if done the right way and especially if DHX would make it.
They could, if they would want to, even make an "Adult Only" version of MLP: FiM that goes straight into grimdark territory (and in all honesty, I can see Hasbro doing that one day, considering the huge adult fanbase and the big potential to earn even more money that is there with it), because MLP: FiM is so flexible, due to the mature style of it, that it would work, like dozens of excellently written fanfic's, that are far more dark than the show so far, proof.
It's not what you say, but how you say it.
You would think that everyone had already understood that back in Season 1.
2433403 Hi there, thanks for taking the time for that extensive reply.
I understand that a fair number people hold this view, and it's one that I share. My discomfort stems from my experience of seeing a large number of people who make the "little girl's show, my ass" statement without clarifying further, and often in a tone that comes off as a tad too defensive of their masculinity. Perhaps it's just me, but if I'm getting that perception, it stands to reason that there probably are others who feel the same, and it's not exactly cool if it hurts feelings in the way I described.
That's not quite what I meant, but it's my fault for not making it clearer.
I do believe that ponies and princesses shouldn't be exclusively girl things, but that's not what most people perceive at the moment. I brought up that point to show that society is generally going to categorise MLP as a girl's show regardless of bronies' opinions, and attempts to say it's not a girl's show just strikes me as an evasive attempt to distance oneself from the feminine aspects of the show (especially if one stops just at saying 'it's not a girl's show', which many do, from what I've seen).
The point I was trying to make is that I feel it would be better to tackle the issue along the lines of "What's wrong with a guy liking a girly show?" as opposed to "It's not just for little girls." The latter only defines away the conflict of gender roles whilst still sort of conforming to it, whilst the former addresses it more directly.
Speaking of which...
I'm pretty sure that there are some guys out in the big world who would disagree, and I don't think this statement would be very fair to them. This relates to my previous point where I would prefer to address how people are perceived in relation to gender roles as opposed to how the show is categorised.
That's a good point. I think the unfortunate problem is that the issue is too big for people to stop at saying "It's not a little girls show", for the reasons mentioned before. I feel that most people leave it at that, which opens it up to a lot of misinterpretation from others. I've seen people who hold the opinion that attempts to define MLP as anything other than a girl's show constitutes an 'invasion'.
In short, call it what you like, but be prepared to be diplomatic about it. I applaud you and those who take the time to explain their views as you have, but I've also seen many who react to criticism by taking up a defensive attitude and blaming the critics for misunderstanding, or even reaching straight for the 'butthurt', 'haters gonna hate' or 'troll alert' defences. Once that happens, ugh.
2434626
Is My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic meant to break gender stereotypes?
Yes, but not in the way you describe here, not in the way that men can like girly things and that little girls can like manly things.
It is breaking gender stereotypes by showing that things are never exclusively "manly" or exclusively "girly", and that all depends on it how things are portrayed and presented, which I explained through my examples above.
I, for one, say that it is way more important to point to it that My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has no gender boundaries or restrictions, because then people watch it and then they say (maybe) things like:
"But there's a fashion show in this episode! That's girly!"
And then you can ask him "But why should a fashion show only be interesting for little girls? Why can't men like that too if it's done interesting? Just look at it how cool this episode is with this song and all! It's not 'girly', it's 'gender neutral'."
These would be the people that associate My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic still with the old generations and that haven't even seen it, because if they would have, it would become obvious to them that the cliched girly crap times are over with G4 and why it is appealing to anyone else too.
I also think it's a show for little kids (though not necessarily girls) but that's why I like it. Adult series always are so extremely complicated that it's nearly impossible to keep up with what is actually happening.
2435569 Nice speech there...
2617475
Impressive, yes, but also mostly useless.
I got a bit overboard when writing this comment and just repeated myself with things that I had already wrote in my other comment and that Raugos had already understood anyway, which is the reason why Raugos hasn't answered on it anymore.
I just realized that and so I deleted most of the comment. The things I deleted can still be found in my first comment, just in a more simple way.
2617810 Maybe, but impressive nonetheless.
2617814
Thanks.
I hope you could take away something from it.
It's not so much about quality as it is intensity, since shows targeted at little girls are stereotypically not as intense.