636158
The U.S.A formed to take care of Nightmare Flare. They couldn't use the Elements of Harmony on her, due to that one of the ponies that was one of the Element's was killed...and was the main reason Celestia turned. She had loved the one element so much, like a mother would to their own child. Her anger grew so much over wanting to seek vengeance, she ended up wanting to plague the whole land with her hate consumed heart

In order to keep events from ever happening agian, the kingdoms in the Alliance made a decree to keep alicorns from ever ruling again, and to only allow there to be one to be alive to tend to the celestial bodies.

As for winged unicorn's, they are a genetic anomaly. Alicorns have to potential to become strong magic users, and tend to live longer or never die from age compared to normal ponies.

636036

I do it because it makes them feel more personal. Also, me? A respected member of the community?

636069

I must agree with 636158 here as well and won't bother to repeat his points. (Yay for people saying my thoughts for me!)

Ok, let's go through this again.

U.S.A. ...I'm going to ignore the obvious here and just push on.

United Species Alliance. So, the United Species team believes that all species can live together. Except Alicorns. And, perplexingly, Silver is seen as a winged unicorn rather than an alicorn, until her Nightmare powers reared their ugly heads. For that matter, what is the difference, to you, between a winged unicorn and an alicorn? Is Celestia an alicorn? Is Luna? What of Cadence? How would you classify Changelings?

Luna is kept in a special prison. Yet she still tends to the night sky. What.

Silver's talent...is the most illogical, useless, moronic thing I've yet to come across as a talent. Manipulating words in a book. It honestly hurts my head to think of this.

What happened to unleash Silver's Nightmare powers? How did they come to be, how did the U.S.A. (I can't ignore the elephant in the room anymore, so: SERIOUSLY!?) discover her powers? How will canon characters like Twilight, Celestia, and Luna deal with this potentially evil creature now in Equestria that has the very real possibility of going stark-raving mad like Luna did?!

You don't fully explain what these Nightmare powers are. They're not defined, meaning you can do whatever you want with them. Essentially, your OC is a God-Mode Sue with hints of Anti-Sue for perceived 'flaws' and sprinkled liberally with Sympathy Sue to evoke empathy in your audience.

636158

That it does. I'll have to fix that soon. Thanks for notifying me.

-Tricondon

636214 Well, you are a head of this group, and the creator of this and the equally helpful Deus Ex Machina avoidance guide.

While I'm here about Mary Sues, I know falling in love with a main character, and the main character doing likewise for no understandable reason, can repel the audience. So I ask this question: what if the OC and canon characters have been interacting in a work setting (the fic idea is set almost a decade into canon future) that they are both passionate about for two years? And the affection doesn't consume either character, they still have other things in the world that they tend to.

Is this a balanced approach to shipping OC's to canon?

It's not my falt she came out as she is, Silver's whole life came to me while I was RPing

This was the first time I had her Nightmare self showen....I do admit that the USA thing is a bit...WTHish

She's also not god-like....

I'm not trying to push her upon you, I'm only here to see if you can help me use my idea's of Silver in a way that not a Mary-sue.

636278

Basing your stories on RPs is not generally advisable.

636283

The Real story is actually based off of The Lost room.

636267

I think it could work, yes; but be warned, even a good idea can fail if done poorly. If you can show me that their love does not take over their lives, and if they share a common interest, I'd be willing to let the romance work, maybe even believe it.

636278

Ah, an RP-character. Very few good stories have ever come from RPing.

God-Mode Sue is not equal to being a god. Straight from my guide:

GM Sue does not conform to the world. She conforms the world to her. Or, to put it another way, the plot solves itself while Sue stands around looking pretty.

Also, just occurred to me now, but she also falls under Mary Sue as cliché'd character:

Draven, orphaned and abused since childhood, discovers he is the Chosen One destined to overthrow The Tyrant Celestia with a new power unique to him, and even within his own family, he is special.

It needs tweaking to conform to Silver, but all the clichés for her are still there.

-Tricondon

636306
I can change her back story.

How about : During Celstia's righn, Rune Word finds a barly one month old foal in the Santum Library during her runs. Since nopony clamed her when her finding was noted, Rune decides to adopt her.

Silver's CM could also be seen as being adept at forign langages, or just speaking well

During a bout with her one friend Shooting Star( he a pegasus, and really is her friend...but tend to use her due to how special she is.), talks her into pulling a prank on her old school bullies. It turn's bad, when a part of her want to trully harm them, and slightly manafests her as a Nightmare. before she does any true harm, she comes to her senses...and runs away in the Seanchai coves woods.

theres a bit of a gap there, but I think a magic disruption during her about to teleport would work best for ether a dimension jump, or a time one.

Please don't put me down with logical hate.

It's bad enough that she's an alicorn, which automatically marks her as Very Special. Giving her this whole Nightmare thing is going to make people queasy, especially if it's used as a source of woe-is-me navel gazing.

Have you seen any of the litmus tests? Unique backgrounds (of which you have two) and power-viewed-as-a-curse are two strong indicators of Sueness.

Consider why she needs to be an alicorn. The only reason any character should need to be an alicorn is to establish them as incredibly special and immensely powerful. If your OC is weaker than Twilight at magic, why does she need to be an alicorn?

636484
what does 'woe-is-me navel gazing' exactly?

I'm not trying to make the whole story focused on Silver, and everything you people say that's what I want.
I might just forget about writing due to how much hate it seems people have for other alicorns.... Even if I did write it, it's not like anyone would even read my crap, heck Brave only has one reader that even got upset I was going to cancel it.

The short form is that she constantly expresses concern about her Nightmare part, either because of what it says about her or what she might do to others because of it. It gets even worse if it's bad enough that others have to comfort her, and becomes terrible if they have to assure her that anything is not her fault.

Why not make it so the story revolves around your character though? That's what being a protagonist is all about. You just need to make sure that the world doesn't bend to your character. That's the problem with Mary Sues: the story doesn't just revolve around them, the world does.

636806
Well, I was going to write the first three chapter and wait for peoples thoughts. I could still follow the basic back ground, but tune it down...and replace the whole U.S.A thing.

does this seem like it has any mary sues....

636654

Well...the weak magic was mostly due to the RPing. I have come to see since being here that there are somethings about her I need to remove, and improve before writing more.

just incase a picture of Silver would help. She normally wears a black pettiecoat.

That still doesn't answer the question: why is she an alicorn? If the plot or her character does not demand it, don't make her one. There is little more Mary Sueish that piling on a bunch of powers and attributes "just cause".

636806>>637095>>638046

Ah, I think I figured it out. Silver suffers from Special Snowflake Syndrome.

As some of you may have guessed, I am an avid troper. Since some of you may not be aware of what that is, I won't bore you with the details. That said, here's the entry on SSS:

It's Friday night and you're running a Dungeons & Dragons campaign. You've invited four friends to play and they're submitting character concepts for your approval. Let's see, Johnny wants to be a human rogue: check. Alice wants to be an elven druid with a pet snake: Check. Bob wants to be a gnome bard: Check. Steve wants to be a wakyambi shaman. Che—wait, what? He eagerly pulls out a sourcebook you've never heard of and explains how Wakyambi are like African elves but with prehensile feet, and shaman are like clerics. Then why don't you just be an elven cleric? "Because Alice is already an elf!" he whines. You begrudgingly check the race and class's abilities. Nothing too gamebreaking. So now you're faced with the decision of allowing the character, though he'll probably hog the spotlight as no one has any idea what the hell he is and there's some reason why he's so far from home, or disallow him and deal with an irate player. Well, our mothers always told us we were special. We can be anything we want to be, right?

So maybe it's for this reason that when people create a character, they often choose the unusual. This can manifest in something as simple as being a member of a rare race and/or class. Or it can be a good-aligned member of an Always Chaotic Evil race, or vice versa.

Allow me to translate for those of you less fortunate (or more. I'm not entirely certain) that aren't tropers.

Staying purely within the realm of ponies, you have four choices: unicorn, earth pony, pegasus, alicorn. Alicorns, more often than not, are frowned upon because of how overpowered they often are. So, you, dear Allen, have 'fixed' this by making your alicorn OC underpowered. And as if that's not enough, she's also from an alternate universe, the magical daughter of a mad Celestia, has strange powers unique to her, and all the while is crying out I just want to be normal!

In trying to make Silver vastly different from every other alicorn OC out there, you've made her completely unbelievable. She's special in so many ways that it's hard to take her seriously.

-Tricondon

Well Tricondon, you certainly hit the nail on the head.

If you want to make an alicorn that isn't a Sue, you'd have much better luck making her royalty who struggles to be the kind of leader everyone expects her to be. She is, after all, young and inexperienced. She can still be manipulated by advisors, and doesn't know who to turn to when she doesn't know the answers which everyone seems to expect her to have.

I think if you want a successful alicorn OC, you need to embrace the alicornness. Treat it as if Luna, Celestia, or Cadence were the main characters, and don't try to tone it down and underpower them--otherwise you simply end up with a normal character that's an alicorn for no real reason. Alicorns are so rare being one should be their defining characteristic. Either build your character around it or don't do it at all.

Well, I could always just use the pony-verse version were she is Luna's daughter.... It could stick to my main story plot, which I have asked WanderD if it was ok to use some of it.

I still need to get her to the other pony-verse. Not sure it's overused, but could have been a Starswirl Spell that went wong.

"Silver," a voice of motherly essence echoed amonged the cramped selves, "Why are you here, I thought you were told your magic wasn't developed enough for such advance spell." The small alicorn whined in protest to her aunts athority. "Also...why are you wearing a coat?

638187
you could add this to your guide

>>Tricondon >>Allen H >>Heliostorm >>GC13

I hope I did those comment links correctly. After all, I am a new unicorn, shunned by all and yet somehow, I know every pony on this board will fall madly in love with me. It must be because of my multi-colored mane, which I hate! I am so tired of being loved for my superficial beauty, while nopony appreciates my teleportation abilities, which are better than Twilight Sparkle's. Oh, dear. I have chipped my platinum hoof. I am so very clumsy.

OK, obviously, I'm kidding, but that's clearly a glaring Sue. This one's shorter and far more amusing, even though it refers to the Harry Potter verse: Sparklypoo House

Note especially the cat person who is the last of her kind. Any special or unusual physical traits are very suspicious.

Also, and I hope this is not out of turn, know your audience. Be aware that some readers will hate your fic and hit the downrate button simply because your protagonist is an alicorn. A lot of people are pretty upset about alicorns at the moment. You can't control a reader's reactions, and it's way better for your own sanity not to judge them. You have to be prepared to laugh that off. If it's going to hurt your feelings a lot to get a big string of downrates, then maybe you might consider working on something else for a little while polishing up and revising this fic.

I have a question of my own. Are all OCs bad? I've got some Babs Seed fics going on, and of course there are some OCs: her immediate family, fillies and colts in her neighborhood, etc. Or something hypothetical: Apple Bloom goes to Appleloosa for a visit to Cousin Braeburn, maybe to bring Bloomberg a girlfriend. She'd probably stay for a while, because it's an awfully long ride that requires an overnight on the train. Pretty much every character she meets is going to be new, since the only named characters are Braeburn, the Sheriff, Chief Thunderhooves, and Little Strongheart. Are the new characters Other Characters or the dreaded Original Characters?

Gosh darn it, now I want to write that story, maybe as a parody of The Rare Breed. I had other things I need to do today.

Well the summery to the plot was going to have Silver end up in a different ponyverse. later on something happens to Celestia and Luna, and they end up as Nightmares, declaring that day and night will forever be as one now. The mane six have gone missing as well. Silver tries to talk reason into to the princesses, but gets knocked out by a unicorn that seemed like Twilight...but wasn't.

639569 Oh, sure--I'm just thinking any alicorn stories are going to get some serious downrating right now, no matter how good they are or what you do with them.

I actually think I should do some branstorming, but right now I think I should be focusing on my main story at the moment. I come to admit that Silver Tongue's backstory seems to "look at me" like, but I think Eclipsus being the daughter of Luna might work out better. I'll come back after I get the first chapter done....

639886

has the number of Alicorn fics become that bad?

639355

Most of the characters you would meet in Applaloosa would indeed be OC's, because they aren't named characters from the show. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. The main thing is balancing out your OC's so that they fill their role properly in your fanfic, aren't overpowerful, have flaws, and don't steal the center of attention if they aren't supposed to be the main center of attention.

You might read through Wanderer D's guide on How to Write Original Characters for ideas of how to do them properly.

How much you flesh them out depends on their role in the story, too. If all they are doing is waiting on tables, and don't even get in a conversation with your characters beyond getting their orders, you don't even need a name or backstory.

And don't forget that there are Mary Sue test's like this one out there, too.

Also, a lot of the same things apply for writing background ponies as OC's, because you have to come up with most of their backstory and personality yourself. I've been writing Sparkler recently, and coming up with her personality and flaws has been fun...

639949 Thanks for the link! That was really helpful. It's certainly possible to write canon characters as Sues, too. I enjoy reading stories about minor characters and background characters--there's so much more you can do.

Allen H: It's not about the number of alicorn fics--it's that people have been getting steadily more paranoid about Alicorn Twilight, so some readers will probably hit the "down" button if they see anything like an alicorn and might not even give your story a chance. Once the season has finished, or even before that, the panic will have died down and you can do anything you like.

642294

No problem. I ran an OC through it a while ago that I have a chapter or two of a story sitting around for in my unpublished fanfics, and she ended up with a score of 15. And the fact that she's an orphan in an orphanage, who gets bullied because of her unusual name accounted for most of the points.

And given that the main characters of the fanfic I'm working on now are Ditzy, Scootaloo, Sparkler, Sweetie Belle, and Dinky, I'm actually having to watch my main cast pretty closely, since only two of them really have established personalities...

642294
I can understand that, but it wasn't like I would straight out say she's an alicorn. I only have a small thing in the first chapter that might hint something like that, but there is no proof she is one.

642997

Uh, what? Either she has a horn and wings, or she doesn't. This isn't really something you can hide.

643445

Haven't I been saying Silver normally likes wearing a black petticoat, which would cover her wings.

Applebloom was in fact too preoccupied, her eyes drop deadlocked on blue feathers that were clinging to the side of a black jacket the unicorn was garbed in. The young filly didn't know much about feathers, but it looked to be from a pegasus and not a bird. Rainbow Dash had spent enough time at their clubhouse because of the way the one orange pegasus, Scootaloo, begged her to. Sure, the cyan mare would every now and then shed a feather or two while she was in their clubhouse...but these feathers were a darker blue compared to the cyan pegasus's. Their color was more of a match to the unresponsive mare's dark blue. Being a young filly, and a Cutie Mark Crusader, she couldn't help feel the itch of curiosity to investigate the unconscious mare.

"Applebloom!?" Sweetie Belle's voice rung through the earth filly’s ears, stopping her from reaching into the unconscious mares jacket midway. "I really think we should tell somepony about her. We can't just leave her like this."

FYI, that is part of what I wrote for chapter one.

644200

That is not hinting towards it. That is blatantly yelling at the reader 'Look! She has wings! Pegasi have feathers, she has feathers! She has a horn too! She's an alicorn! But keep it a secret! I'm being subtle, gaiz!'

...a little harsher than intended, but you get my point.

A couple of the other people on here make good points about Alicorn OCs; read them and absorb their knowledge. Their precious knowledge...

-Tricondon

And you still really haven't explained why she needs to be an alicorn either =/

645617

I have already thrown Silver away as a fan fic char.

The best I could possible do for an alicorn OC if i want to use one it ether have her be royalty like I have been told, or a character becomes one. I was thinking I could use one of the seasons as an alicorn, but probably is over used.

I seem to be talking to much on this thread...hope i'm not being a buzz kill.

now off the alicorn topic for a while, I have one question about dragons. I have two characters i originally made for a fic, but canceled it due to that i was having a hard time thinking through its plot.
Fire Blossom (basicly called Blossom) is a 14 year old dragoness hatchling that lost her memory due to griffions dropping her from a high height. being hungry, and sverly lost, she wandered into a barn that stored some gems
the other character, Onyx Flame ( the only born pegasus in her family...hey there could have been some in someponys family roots) ends up helping Blossom get back home (mostly due to the fact she seems like a baby version of a dragon she has been dreaming)

could be interesting...if I ever could figure out a plot for these OC's

645694
Amnesia makes people very wary of a Sue approaching, but if the only other major thing is that she is attacked by gryphons, you can likely get away with that with just a tiny bit of effort. That effort mainly being A) Dragons are commonplace where she is, at least enough so that her presence and Onyx' are not world shattering events, and B) Giving the gryphons a legitimate reason to attack Fire Blossom.

A caveat with point A, you can likely skip that if you write the fiction like a fugitive fic, that is the gryphons are hunting her and she and Onyx are constantly staying one step ahead, of course with this you then need to pour even more effort into point B. Villains need motivations, just like heroes, and only The Joker can get away with "I do it for the kicks" while still having a surprising number of resources to call upon.

I just put Whimper through that test linked above, and he came as über-Sue. Yet arcum42 assured me that he is nowhere near Gary Stu status and none of the commenting readers have identified this OC as such. This leads me to believe that the actual status of Mary Sue-ism really requires the context of the whole story to make a judgment. Him knowing martial arts served the story, and it wasn't considered something earth-shattering, throughout the entire story he's treated no different from any other foal with issue (to wit: Rumble and Scoots get counseling, too). If he has some special status or abilities, it's because I couldn't explore certain themes for the story without them. (The reason why RD is special, but also a jerk sometimes, the line between standing up for yourself and becoming a monster, whether or not violent urges make you inherently evil, etc.)

Anyway, all this talk of alicorns brings back the alicorn romance idea I posted some time ago. You basically have an alicorn colt (Ace, short for Acier, meaning Steel) who lives in Canterlot and gets private tutoring, and who has a cutie mark that everyone thinks implies a talent in magic when really his talent is something more mundane (a certain type of art, not to spoil it completely). He does learn magic, but it takes a lot of effort, and most of the advanced stuff he doesn't even start on (despite being a Twilight Sparkle fanboy). He has several abilities that seem abnormal but make perfect sense for the context he's in. His conflict is that he's afraid to socialise with non-alicorns because he hates the idea that no one will understand him. There's some headcanon about the differences between alicorn magic and unicorn magic, but that's an aside.

Anyway, this OC runs into another alicorn (yes, two alicorn OC's in one fic, both functional ) a filly who does actually have a talent for magic but cannot fly. They start hanging out, there's some jokes about nobility, they bond and grow very fond of each other, and it ends kind of bad because the filly isn't really who she says she is (spoiler: it's not the obvious response). There's a very painful breakup for him, but in the end he has to face the fact that everyone has their unique talents and interests. Even if he thinks he'll be alone, he should at least try to find some common ground with others and not worry so much about the wings and horn thing.

In other words: there's development, and all the things that make the characters special serve the story, not the other way around. That's how it is for normal characters, too, right?

Now, I can accept that on paper this looks like Mary Sue country all around. But there's a context, a setting, extenuating circumstances, if you will. It doesn't become a Mary Sue until the story makes it into one. My main gripe with the guide so far is that people take it as a means of analysing a character when it should be an analysis of the story.

Does the character fit in the story or does the story have rules that bend around the character? This, to me, is the only criterion that really matters.

Because seriously, when you read a masterpiece like 'The Invisibles' and run those guys through that test... their scores are off the charts, yet no one considers them Mary Sues. King Mob is a hypersigil, the very definition of a self-insert yet no one considers him a Mary Sue. I guess what I'm trying to say is: it's all relative and depends on context.

649189

Yes, of course it depends on context. A character with the power to destroy buildings with his bare hands (hooves) would be brokenly OP in MLP, but he'd just be a Superhero Of The Week in superhero comics. But the thing with fanfiction is that the context, the "world", already exists. When it comes to alicorns and MLP, you are inevitably bending the known rules of the universe in order to have an alicorn OC.

Commenting on your alicorn romance idea, I don't think it makes much sense as a premise. The key here is why is he afraid of the reactions of other ponies just because he's an alicorn? Young!Cadence was considered mundane enough to be a babysitter for a completely average unicorn (She foalsat for Twilight before she had her cutie mark, meaning before she was Celestia's student and anyone knew she had such great magical potential). Luna is treated with fear and Celestia with reverence, but the evidence indicates this is more due to how they themselves behave more than any inherent reaction on the part of normal ponies. When Cadence and Luna act like normal ponies, they are treated like normal ponies.

There's simply no evidence in the show that alicorns would be reacted to in such a way where your alicorn foal would be afraid of it. If he gets fear and misunderstanding, then it's the fault of his personality, not his alicornness. And if it's the fault of his personality, why is being an alicorn essential to the plot? IMO, it seems like an excuse to deal with the issues you raise (isolation, finding common ground, etc.) without having to deal with the complex sociological causes of such. Essentially, the storyline you've suggested can easily be done without alicorns, and in fact would be a much more emotionally complex and rich story for doing so as there's no simple excuse for why he's afraid of being treated differently.

My rule of thumb with alicorns is that, if you're deliberately gimping your alicorn OC so that they're not overpowered compared to normal ponies (basically, if you're making him "like a normal pony just with horns and wings"), you'd best take a long, hard look at if your story actually needs an alicorn.

649601
Well, that's the thing, isn't it? There are parts to the story that I didn't elaborate on, because it would make it too long. The OC doesn't so much have a lack of power, he's a normal alicorn in that regard, but he's struggling with the idea of having to grow up and use it one day. His talent is art, which in my headcanon means he's happy doing that. He does show an interest in magic, he does practise. He's not actually gimped, is what I mean. He does have issues with unicorn magic (for reasons that are explained later on), but he's not considered handicapped compared to the rest.

As for Cadence being considered normal enough to foalsit Twilight: that strikes me more as a grownup thing than a child thing. Filly Twilight was just excited to have a princess as a foalsitter, but Cadence was in her mid-teens at that point. We don't know how it is for an alicorn foal of CMC age, which is what Ace is, sort of. One of the scenes that I thought of was that he'd ask to join in a ball game, and the kids start arguing about how he can't play because whichever team he's on has an unfair advantage. When we saw the (biased and possibly not completely reliable) flashback from Twilight, Cadence was already older. We don't know what happened when she was little, and kids can be cruel. Even barring that, we have no idea how many more alicorns there are and how they are treated. Léon still hasn't shown up in the show, nor has Skyla. It's not set in stone, as far as I'm concerned.

What would I like to say with this story, then?
-a little exploration of what it means to be labelled a genius, or more accurately to have good work rewarded with more work.
-a couple of gags revolving royalty and nobility that really only work if the main character is a noble.
-portray a situation where what you're good at, what you're expected to do later in life and what makes you happy don't all add up.
-get a character who progresses to the point that he realises most of the pressure put on him is pressure he put on himself. And so on and so forth, those are some of the first things that come to mind.

Why wouldn't this work with Ace as a unicorn character?
-part of the reason he doesn't want to get signed up for Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns is because he feels that not being a unicorn excludes him from it. Again: his perception, not reality.

-if he is a unicorn, then there is no reason for him not to be able to do unicorn magic and part of of the character is just gone. The whole point is that alicorns work a little differently, and he was scared to ask for help, because... finding out that no one can help you because you're so special is a scary prospect. Also: there's a silly prejudice some ponies have that alicorns are perfect and immortal, and he does not look forward to getting that from a doctor. Again: his view on things. It's another alicorn who explains that things really aren't as bad as he's making them out to be. With unicorns... I already did something like that once with my Rarity and Waiwai fic -- and the judges loved that one -- but I kind of want to do something new.

-as for the reason why he's scared? I haven't worked out the exact details yet, but here goes: the day he got his cutie mark was when he submitted his artwork for a contest. He didn't win, but he got a lot of praise from the critics and everyone who saw it. And everyone was at least ten years his senior. The thing that makes him happy is something no one his age does, and somewhere along the line the idea of him being an alicorn and the idea of him being good at something mixed. He has to work out if his talent has any merit, if his lineage is all there is to him. It doesn't help that some ponies do actually think he's good at things because of his race, and take it for granted.

-there is a subplot about him meeting Twilight Sparkle, because he is sort of to Twilight what Scootaloo is to Rainbow Dash before Season 3. Them being separated by race feels like a hurdle to him.

Ace basically feels stuck, because on one hand he can follow his talent and ponies would think it's because of his lineage, or he could do what his lineage suggests and be alone. That's not how it is, that's how he sees it. He doesn't really wish he was normal, he does enjoy the fact that he's special and the perks of nobility, to some degree. It's the loneliness that comes with being unique that bothers him. His experiences led him to think no one would really understand him (and those who do are really old, compared to him, which is pretty depressing for a little kid).

But this story is just a concept so far, my sequels take priority. Changeling fics get a lot of sequel requests, I find....

So... yeah, back to my point: the Mary Sue-ism comes from having a character who bends the rules around him. But even an alicorn OC can be justified if they serve the story. It's not just 'Alicorn, BOOM! Mary Sue.' It can be done, and I just don't think it's fair to judge a concept just because an incomplete description of the plot matches a test that doesn't account for context or even setting. There are very definite indicators of it in the design process, true, but that doesn't mean every alicorn OC automatically makes for a bad story. Which is still the focus here: good stories and bad stories.

649884

You're arguing that we don't know how alicorn OCs work, and while that's true, there's a difference between extrapolating from what the show indicates and twisting the show to fit your story. Watching the show, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Cadence wasn't raised in tender love and kindness. There's nothing in her character that hints at a sad and troubled childhood. Frankly speaking, there's nothing in the show you can point to and say "Alicorn foals are raised and treated in such a manner as to cause suffering and isolation." While it's true that we don't know for sure that they aren't, that is twisting the canon to fit your story, not filling the gaps by extrapolating from the canon. Gaps in canon are not excuses to fill them with whatever you want.

Also, non-alicorn royalty exists. In fact, the only male royal we know of is a unicorn, not an alicorn.

-part of the reason he doesn't want to get signed up for Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns is because he feels that not being a unicorn excludes him from it. Again: his perception, not reality.

You say this is part of the reason, but what are the others? Is this so major a reason that he wouldn't want to go to the school even if he was a unicorn?

-if he is a unicorn, then there is no reason for him not to be able to do unicorn magic and part of of the character is just gone. The whole point is that alicorns work a little differently, and he was scared to ask for help, because... finding out that no one can help you because you're so special is a scary prospect. Also: there's a silly prejudice some ponies have that alicorns are perfect and immortal, and he does not look forward to getting that from a doctor.

Here you're trying to cut it both ways, by making him special, then treating him like a normal pony. If he's a royal alicorn, then he should be treated as such. That means he ought to have his own doctor/tutor/nanny/parent whatever. There has to be someone who takes care of him that will notice that his magic isn't working properly. If royal alicorn foals are a thing, then there will realistically be an entire infrastructure around them to take care of them and guide them on their path to maturity, because they are that damn special. Royal children are not left to figure things out on their own, they have their own personal tutors in everything to make sure they grow up right, and they are constantly being watched to make sure that they do. That's how royalty works.

Alicorns are special, yes, but they're not one-of-a-kind. The fact that other alicorns exist means that their society knows how to raise them.

It doesn't help that some ponies do actually think he's good at things because of his race, and take it for granted.

... I cannot see this ever realistically happening in a society where what is known explicitly as your "special talent" is tattooed onto your body. This is not at all how cutie marks are treated in the show. Do people take Rainbow Dash's skill at flying for granted because of her race? No. Their society revolves around cutie marks, and it's universally acknowledged that what a pony is good at they are good at on their own merits. In a human society, these issues are realistic. In a society with something like cutie marks? No, not really. This is a fundamental difference between being a human and being a pony, that there's no question as a pony what your special talent is and whether it's genetic or not.

I don't want you to think I'm saying "Your story can't have an alicorn." The premise of dealing with the uniqueness of being an alicorn is not a bad one, and it can work very well as a story. But there's kinks in your concept that don't quite work with that concept and could use some ironing out. It's kind of hanging in this middle ground here, and if it wants to work as an alicorn story then it needs to swing more strongly in that direction.

Which goes back to what I was saying earlier: Alicorns and overpowered characters in general can work, but the story has to be built around them.

I have an OC here I'd like to use as an example. He's a big character--in that he's a major character to the plot, not in actual size just for clarity--in one of my fanfics (that can be read here: http://www.fimfiction.net/story/56218/ethereal-chaos). I'm using him as an example because he's the most developed and complex of the characters; not saying the thers are just cardboard cut-outs, but they're not as developed.

Name: Infernalo
Race: Trossel (unique race, which may or may not be an immediate red flag)
Special Talent: (Trossels receive their cutie marks in a completely different way than normal ponies. Instead of finding what their best at, Trossels' cutie marks are discovered when their elemental power reveals itself which is usually at a young age. For example, using Leafwind her cutie was revealed by a gust of wind that circled her and revealed that she was a Wind and Nature Trossel).
Personality and Bio: Infernalo is a very intelligent, very reserved, and very levelheaded pony, who isolated himself from others for quite a while in order to master his own elements, since being a Heaven and Darkness Trossel, two elements in particular that require a lot of focus and discipline in order to use properly; Darkness is an element of great power and magnitude that can be extremely dangerous for others and even one's self if not harnessed. He did, however, begin simply avoiding ponies out of the assumption that they simply wouldn't be smart enough--with the exception of his little sister Frostburn's boyfriend Steelmind, an awkward but nevertheless intelligent equal and his little sister's twin Stonebolt's best friend Zephyroak. Despite Stonebolt being his clearly more favored sister for being more mature, and Infernalo's consistent annoyance with Frostburn, he's still a caring older brother to both of them and shows love and even concern for their safety at all times. Despite this, he rarely expresses his emotions unless they are particularly strong. It's revealed that he, his siblings, and even his ex-girlfriend Aquashine, who he inevitably pushed away after falling for Twilight Sparkle, were the reincarnations of the Sixth Elements, a group of powerful warriors destined to destroy and recontain the ancient evil known as the Cursed Trossels. Despite defeating them, and even being honored as heroes after returning their home world to peace and prosperity, Infernalo and his friends--sans Aquashine--decided that their true place was with their new Equestrian friends and returned to Ponyville, where Infernalo confessed his love for Twilight.

There's a lot more to Infernalo's character that's shown in his story, and I'm looking for anyone to give me some feedback or tell me how I can fix my character to make him less likely to be labelled as a Gary Stu.

712724

Holy names! Leafwind. Infernalo. Stonebolt. Steelmind. Zephyroak. (????????) What is this I don't even.

Alright, I'll give you my thoughts, for what they're worth. Also note that my tune may change once I read the story, since I'm merely going by the info you've provided here.

Well, first off, big props for creating an entirely new species. That's not an easy task, though I'm curious about one thing; if they're essentially ponies, why make them a new species at all? Your main difference seems to be regarding their cutie marks, and here is where I meet my first bit of resistance.

First of all, you state that they get their marks when they master their elemental powers; you go on to say that Infernalo (I'll get to that momentarily) controls Heaven and Darkness. DAFUQ does that even mean?! I'll assume, having not read it, that Heaven is a stand-in for light, so Infernalo (nnnggggg...) controls light and dark. That is an incredibly broad topic, meaning unless you define precisely what the scope of his powers are, you can do pretty well whatever you want. (God-Mode Sue, essentially)

Secondly, I feel as if you've created this bizarre not-Cutie Mark system for no reason than to make something different as opposed to interesting, entertaining, or enjoyable. The whole process seems less like the show, which is based on finding your own path in the world, and more like predetermination and You Can't Fight Fate. While this is not an inherently bad thing, and it certainly seems like you've thought this out, I need to see this detail. Maybe it's better than I'm imagining, maybe it's far worse. Just judging by this little blurb, I have to say I'm wholly against the idea.

Moving on, the names. Holy Sweet Celestia, the names! It's not that they're so distant from the pony-fare we've gotten used to; it's that they're awkward, both to read and to write. They just don't seem like the type of names that normal sane individuals would give their children. Assuming they speak the same indigenous language as ponies, they're awkward to say. Just say a few out loud. Infernalo. Aquashine. Zephyroak. How do you even pronounce that last one? One can typically get away with bizarre-sounding names if it's plain that what we call them is a translation into our language, but actually meeting someone named Frostburn?

Also on names, I think I can guess with 80% accuracy what most of their 'talents' are. I mean, seriously. Aquashine controls water. Frostburn controls fire and ice. Stonebolt controls earth/rock and lightning. This ties back to your not-Cutie Mark idea. It's even less impressive, since their name is the thing defining their powers now, meaning their parents (or whomever names newborns) decides their powers. If I wanted a Trussel with awesome powers, I'd name it Soulbind or Grimsever or Flashfire or something.

Whew! And I haven't even gotten started on Infernalo himself.

His relationship with other characters seems fairly complex, though your peculiar word choice and sentence structure makes it difficult for me to know if I'm getting the whole idea or not. I'm quite afraid I'm stuck for any more character analysis without having read the entire story.

Just judging by this blurb, I'd have to say Infernalo (nnnngggggggg...) toes the line between Marty Stu and balanced character. He has rare and hard to control powers which doesn't overly affect his day-to-day life. He looks down on those perceived to be less intelligent, with exception to his family and their chosen friends. He dumps his current girlfriend to court Twilight Sparkle. He's the reincarnation of an ancient hero destined to seal away an ancient evil. I can make such arguments for and against his Sue-ness, but I cannot be assured of my final outcome until I read the story itself and get a better idea.

-Tricondon

712946 I can kinda see a lot of your concerns about Infernalo (a fusion of Inferno--italian for Hell and reference to Dante's Divine Comedy--and halo; I'll be covering his elements in a moment) being valid enough, and you're not the first one to say the whole cutie mark thing or even the concept of Trossels being 'something different, not something interesting' or whatever. I can actually defend quite a bit of this. First and foremost, his relationship with others: Infernalo used to be a very playful and active pony who had plenty of friends, including the future Queen Paragontal, the Omni Trossel (more on that later) who'd had a crush on him for a long time. His powers and training years since getting his cutie mark to ensure that his powers were in check and controlled enough ended up isolating him from other for a long while and he started becoming more opposed to confrontation with anypony in favor of further educating himself and gaining more knowledge about the world around him rather than everypony else in between. It's only after his home is destroyed by the release of the Cursed Trossels that he finds Ponyville, takes refuge in Twilight's home, and begins to slowly open up and realize (I'm going to hate myself for this) 'the magic of friendship' and in fact even leaves his home to be with the ones he loves and the mare of his dreams.

Now, I'm going to start talking about Aquashine. In this story, she's a bit of a minor character but has a much bigger role in the sequel that I haven't published to the site yet for several reasons including being between projects in order to edit it to a more manageable, less canon-defecating state. Anyway, Aquashine and Infernalo's relationship was a one-way street from day one, which his sisters' continually tell him but he either doesn't realize or doesn't care. Aquashine (a Water and Light Trossel, yes there's a LIGHT element as well; in fact there are 35 total elements, but all will be explained) was never tied down to simply one pony, always just toying with them and using her beauty to manipulate stallions to giving her whatever she wanted and then tossing them away just as quickly, Infernalo being not much different. They were never an item, at least not officially, and Infernalo almost completely forgets about her after coming to Ponyville and meeting Twilight and her friends. When she actually does fully offer herself to him, he rejects her in favor of Twilight. However, this doesn't even phase her that much as she immediately goes on the rebound for the next pony to twist to her whim.

As for the elements themselves, it's explained in the prologue that the Trossels were once unicorns long, long ago who uncovered a mysterious source of 'Raw Magic' that evolved/mutated them to what they are now, the ponies now able to control an element of their own, starting with about 7 who then bred with other tribes as well as infrequent New Elements cropping up throughout the generations, meaning the offspring inherited the powers of their parents and future generations would inherit the powers from their family trees, hence the names being a combination of what their powers would likely be. It gets more complex when factoring in Kwincol (non-Trossel) breeding partners and pure elements. The characters' names all have something to do with what their elements are, as you mentioned: Frostburn (Fire and Ice), Stonebolt (Earth and Thunder), Infernalo (aforementioned Heaven and Darkness), Leafwind (Nature and Air), Zephyroak (Zephyr- Sky and Oak- Wood), and finally Steelmind (Metal and Thought). Names like this may seem more than a bit odd by pony standards but their names and powers have essentially become common place in their society, as well as the brutal slander of the Alicorn Princesses throughout their recorded history, texts, and culture.

Getting back to that whole Omni Trossel thing, and its current incarnation of Paragontal herself (derived from the word paragon, meaning best possible example of something), the thing is that the Trossels' royalty works differently. Since they don't have an (nigh) immortal ruler, the Omni Trossel is a pony reincarnated into a new pony every other generation, gifted with the powers of every element. Paragontal, however, despite having mastered nearly all of them thanks to her father (revealed to be an Earthbound Ascended Trossel--basically a demigod [her mother Queen Benevolence became an Ascended Trossel--a god or close to it--with her husband and Paragontal's father King Universal Reign the squire of the first ever Omni Trossel, stayed on the earthly plane but was given the power; it gets really confusing and raises a lot of questions]), came to realize that she was very lonely, never able to have any real friends without knowing deep down that they'd only really like her because of her power and authority, if they could even approach her at all. This was meant to be touched upon deeper in a non-canon crossover with the G1 ponies, where she actually finds an Aether Trossel named Zoey with a similar problem of making any friends.

I kinda got off-track there, i'm sorry, but I think that I just about covered almost everything with Infernalo, if I didn't screw it up and end up making things about a million billion times more complicated.

714006

You have clearly put a lot of thought and effort into this. I commend you on that front.

I'm almost hesitant to say this next part, though; you introduce waaaaaaaay too much information. You have to remember, when writing a fanfic you're playing with established rules and laws. You bring up a beautifully constructed society/species with its own internal rules and such. The problem arises when you stick this subset into Equestria. Despite their equine appearance I highly doubt Trossels and Ponies can truly live together in harmony. Their brand of magic is too varied, too different from each other. If Trossels can control the weather, why have Pegasi to do the same? If Trossels can command the skies and the stars, what use have we of the Princesses? The Omni Trossel is essentially Celestia, Luna, Cadance, Discord, Sombra, and Chrysalis combined, when comparing magical strength.

As a MLP fanfic, I'd have to say it simply introduces too many foreign concepts to be truly enjoyable.

HOWEVER!

With a little tweaking, I think your fic, once everything relating to Equestria is purged, could actually be a stand-alone novel/series of novels. Great internal ruleset, wonderfully designed characters, imaginative backstory, creative character powers. I'd certainly read it. Just not on this site.

-Tricondon

714573 I do actually agree with you on that last part about making the Trossels their own seperate series altogether. The backstory of the Trossels do state, however, that Trossels and Kwincols would often pass through each other's territorry from time to time but eventually, the other ponies simply stopped coming and started building their own territories and their own homes. The Trossels were always welcome, but it wasn't until the events of the first story Ethereal Chaos when the first Trossels to ever come to Equestria in over 700 years arrived that they were greeted with, at best, mixed reactions of how to approach something almost nopony had seen in almost a millennium. Likewise, when Trossels actually meet the First Kwincols in as far back as their recorded history, they're equally as amazed; their backstory is fleshed out a bit more in a future canon sequel which was a remake of another story. The thing is, I do flesh out a lot about this species, but then again I FLESH OUT THIS SPECIES, unlike the show which simply gives us maybe a single character and doesn't give us anything about them (i.e. zebras, minotaurs, griffins, changelings, whatever Discord was supposed to be but I just can't remember how to spell it, and just about everything else that isn't a unicorn, pegasus, or earth pony--we get vague at best descriptions of the Princesses but we don't know if all alicorns are this powerful or it's simply them or even the possibility of if they are the only alicorns in existence). I know that last part seems a bit nitpicking but it's true. Again, I do agree with your idea of making this series into a separate franchise unto itself, sorta like how Fifty Shades of Grey was originally fanfiction.

714660

Well, it's only my opinion. Take it or leave it as you desire.

-Tricondon

390099
Holy hay! That's a lot of notes to take in!

715328 Comes with the field of fan-fiction writing. Just be glad there are so many great fellows to help you along the way.

715419
Ur right. But still...

715328

It took me roughly two weeks to write it all. And I'm still thinking up things to add to it.

-Tricondon

715979
I c. Would you mind looking over my lone fanfic "Of Tutoring and Love"? ...not doing so well as I expected and hoping you'd give some advice...

Hmm...
Would an OC being trained under Shining Armor before he leaves for the Crystal Empire work?

751554

I see no reason why it wouldn't. But it is a very basic idea without much plot. Remember, it's not just one or two details a Mary Sue makes. It's everything working together in imperfect harmony that repulses readers.

-Tricondon

753272
So it wouldn't be a MS trait?