Here's a thought I had, while talking in the comments section of “The PER: Michelson and Morely”.

Say, we have a version of Celestia who intentionally created the Bearer. Who's intentionally expanding it across the Earth, to force everyone to be Ponies. And we have a resistance fighter, who's doing what he can to oppose that.

Couldn't both Celestia and the resistance fighter both be acting out of compassion, principle, and a sense of duty?

Say Celestia wants everyone to become Equestrian Ponies. Because Ponies really are biologically less pone to violence and problematic/cruel/hateful behavior then we are. Plus if everyone were a single ethnic group, a single nation, under a world government: That would be a more peaceful world, less prone to harried and all (at least, in her opinion). She just wants to reduce suffering, and give people a better quality of life. She sees that as her duty.

Our resistance fighter would also like to reduce suffering, and give people a better quality of life. But he profoundly disagrees with the way Celesta's doing it!

He thinks out furless ape bodies are something beautiful, and feels we have the right to exist in our current form. He doesn't want his people, or the Earth's other peoples, being assimilated away. He sees the world's different cultures (American, Japanese, Zulu, etc.) as something beautiful, and he wants them to continue to exist. He sees that as his duty: To protect the existence of the Earth's peoples, the Human race, and to protect our right to control our bodies.

Edit: Actuality, I got this thought from two conversations I had. The first was this conversation I had at "The Optimalverse" group. And the second was the comments of “The PER: Michelson and Morely”.

Our resistance fighter would also like to reduce suffering, and give people a better quality of life. But he profoundly disagrees with the way Celesta's doing it!

He thinks out furless ape bodies are something beautiful, and feels we have the right to exist in our current form. He doesn't want his people, or the Earth's other peoples, being assimilated away. He sees the world's different cultures (American, Japanese, Zulu, etc.) as something beautiful, and he wants them to continue to exist. He sees that as his duty: To protect the existence of the Earth's peoples, the Human race, and to protect our right to control our bodies.

I'm not sure I follow. He wants things to stay the same and make things better by that, while Celestia wants them to change so that they'll be better? I think you're missing explaining how exactly he wants to make things better, other than the fact he disagrees with her.
If I remember correctly, in that story's universe, things on Earth are far past effed.

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There's a reason I'm not explaining how he wants to make things better: It doesn't matter. He could be a libertarian or a communist. He could be a political activist, or he could be someone who volunteers at a soup kitchen (or both). He could be an aid worker, a Rebel soldier, or a Government soldier in Syria.

There are any number of ideas he may have, or things he may be doing, to try to make the world better. The point is: He's a compassionate man who cares about people, and he's trying. Celestia's a compassionate mare who's trying too, but our resistance fighter profoundly disagrees with what she's doing.

6734344
Ah that's better.
Did you read Implacable?

6734372

Yes, I read Implacable a while back. But that's not how I got this idea. I got it from two conversations I had with Chatoyance.

well, I think situation described on those stories VERY different from anything humans meet so far. At other side of Barrier not just another Earth/planet, but something really different. In theory, if you are fast thinker, you will realize in land where no-one gives wrong look for wrong _form_ (only actions speak..) and where majority (99.99%) of population actually beyond nice and supportive and their ...Special Superpony (Celestia, +Luna, +even Discord, +who know who else) actually NOT human at very fundamental level (up to multiplication of personalities, not counting 'simpler' things about matter manipulation) - well, you can spend like 100 years studying local magic, then present your case . Everyone who _still_ want this particular human form - will, eventually, get it .. [just without shit and loopholes embedded, this time]

Realizing this IN TIME and on distorted/very partial info amid worldwide confusion is not easy task ...

6734485
I'm sorry, but I can't make out what you're trying to say.

see, Celestia IS powerful being, who can, in emergency, create whole new being out of local matter, "atom' by 'atom'. She also was able to babysit (sometimes literally) ~300 humans in different parts of Earth (so they agreed, very reluctantly, to allow HER plan as official. With Bureaus and such.).

Next, Equestria in this series (by Chatoyance) actually NOT just world like ours, but extropic world.

Extropy is the opposite of entropy. Extropy = A measure of intelligence, information, energy, vitality, experience, diversity, opportunity, and growth.

Extropianism = The philosophy that seeks to increase extropy.

- src: http://www.thespiritof76.com/NEX_NEWS/Storage/TO76/AD_DEEPA.HTM

So, this mean, if you start doing something there, and will insist on doing it ..it will give fruits of your labour MUCH better than on Earth. By not just social, but local-cosmological reasons.

Figuring _this_ out from just Hype(r)net talks and rare letter back to home from converted humans in first years of Conversion - is not easy. Yet! you say humans are intelligent etc?

With just 2% out of 200 mil of humans in ex-USA (one who had jobs, therefore access to forums, hobby, amateur clubs, etc, etc) = 4 million of humans! Surely someone will realize this little detail? But may be not fast enough..

Point (among many) is ..humans CAN be quite ..stubborn. For wrong reasons, and ..fatally ... But nothing stops _different_ humans (amateurs, non-government, in this case non-worldcorporation) from thinking this in and out even without computers, at Equestria' side of Barrier, after mass-conversions started!

For giving you real-world estimate of how fast you can figure something as right or wrong ..I move from knowing dolphins only as book subject to strongly oppose their captivity in ..2005 - 2002 = 3 years. With real-world dolphinarium in-between.

My point: conflicting side of this world/timeline was at least cursory explored. This new idea - not ...(i have headcanon Celestia not just out of nothing was so reluctant to leave humans in their form - she and other ponies, in my view, just watched, helplessly, how humans ruined whole earth much faster than anyone was able to predict! So, things become unstable and rushed. And only _proven_ and _stable_ form Celestia knew 101% - was Pony form. But, this is my headcanon.)

PS: I think opponents of ponification united under HLF (human liberation front) banners. Even this term apparently link to some not-so-old classical sci-fi, but lets not dig into this sidetunnel too far.

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I'm sorry, but I still can't make heads or tails out of what you're saying. I think you're using too many words, and going into to much nittey-gritey detail. Can you just tell me your main point, in one or two sentences?

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as far as I can see you frame it in classical (for humans) One's good vs Someone's else good. many humans will probably think/react this way. This is realistic ...

But what is your question? What Celestia will do? Or what our human will do?

Good vs good is always an interesting dilemma. We can argue so many things just in our natural earth: freedom vs security, conservativism vs progressivism, intelligence vs wisdom. It's honestly a huge part of democracy and politics.

Assuming all members of the political parties are good, and believe what they are doing is best, this is the question voters ask themselves. Do I value women's rights or baby's rights more? So I value financial security or financial equality more?

Ideally, everyone running for office is good, but differences in values make two good people different.

6734508
I think I see. But I'm not asking what Celestia or the resistance fighter will do. I'm just makeing the point that it's one person's good vs someone's else's good. That two people can have good hearts, be trying to help, and be on opposite sides.

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Ideally, everyone running for office is good, but differences in values make two good people different.

I really wish modern American democracy worked that way!

6734742

That two people can have good hearts, be trying to help, and be on opposite sides.

What about addition of *head* to *heart*? because otherwise it will not work ... And if you have head - you will at least meet Celestia to see *why* exactly she does it this way. Next, she will explain it to you (probably in full sensory immersion). Next, of course, you can decide you better to die as human , in human form ..My guess most of humans will prefer life over death, and put all this ideology in very far corner...

Good beings by definition listen to each other. Consensus doesn't mean making compromises (from another page at this newly found by me site) - yet in situation where you can die in few years vs convert yourself (and your friends! assuming you have few, locally ...) and continue some studies Celestia and other ponies were unable to conduct in time? I think *reasonable* way out of it actually pretty clear? You might not believe Celestia can't stop barrier - but then best way to test this hypothesis, again, go to Equestria, and preferably as fast as possible (before accelerating growth will make communication between two point of Equestrian space hard even for flying ponies). After all, in mid-collusion very interesting situation occur - there will be already enough ex-humans (newfoals) at _another_ side of barrier to see and experience full reality, and may be come with new tricks. canonically, you probably can fit this into barrier's speed changes line. In more canonical version barrier (second one, magical construct) developed some common sense/sentience of on its own, you can add few converted humans in story about discovering this effect and using it ... In theory, you can completely counterwrite end of saga, if you want, by finding ways to switch humans into 'pony mode' permanently and in one shot, without physically turning them into another matter literally.

This is beauty of (radical fanfiction) writing - you can do nearly anything.. providing you are logical and love to describe events, characters, etc in enough details ( i can't do this .. I mean i can't do details. ideas yes, but not details.)

Actually, for me those specific psychologically-alien ponies much more interesting and attractive than standard, more human-like ponies in more mainstream fanfiction. With their programmable evironment they definitely can solve nearly any problem, given enough time, and in truely humane manner (humane as in - yo will not just like it, but application of their 'solution' will be good for you, your friends, your ex-enemies, your kids, etc, etc ...)

6734820
I'm sorry, but you lost me again.

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hm. I agree I tend to be BIG fan of this specific saga and therefore can use a lot of 'inside knowledge' from reading tons of comments, in addition to stories. In this specific universe barrier is _unstoppable_ by most powerful beings at Equestria side. They at best can alter it. Conversion into ponies done not because Celestia want more ponies (she doesn't, here) - but because _all_ our life, organic or not (AIs here somewhat based on advanced quantum effects) can't live in equestrian universe. If you forced to remake humans anyway (and this conversion will make _any_ of them superhero, by earth's standards) you definitely want to make sure their psychology match their level of individual and collective power.

Good human (or other-than-human being) good not due to (self-ascribed) label, but because _consequences_ of his/her/their actions actually ...good. try to unpack this 'good' label.

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I'm still lost. Like I said, I think you need fewer words and fewer nittey-gritey details.

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ok, I got your PM, but ... I don't think you can explain extremely complex situation in just sentence or two! This lead to confusion, harmless while all those worlds exist only on paper and we discuss them on forum.. not so harmless if you actually live in such world.

6734384
Yes, I understood you got the idea from those conversations. The reason I asked if you had read Implacable was because I though you might find it interesting in this context.

I think that in this subject, considering what authors seem interested in doing with with these scenarios, you're not likely to find what you're looking for. It seems that in Conversion Bureau stories, either Celestia wants to conquer Earth or something has happened and she wants to help, and people like the HLF will always be in the way, but because of the nature of the stories, a 'good vs good' conflict is very unlikely. I can't remember ever reading a story that I could say that was the case.

Why don't you write one?

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Why don't you write one?

I don't think I could do it justice on my own. Or rather, I don't think I could do Celestia justice: I'm too much with our resistance fighter. But if someone wants to write this story with me, someone who can do Celestia justice: That might work.

There is little problem in whole 'good vs good' scenario. Namely, your idea of what is good can be ... fatally flawed. Like, you imagine removing (not to say killing) Celestia will stop barrier - yet due to your lack of real information barrier might just expand forward, killing everyone (on Earth side) momentally ..:(

By very definition Celestia HAVE some millenia of history behind her - and you (your human protagonist) ..you have 'internet-type 'rumors at best. This doesn't make her always right - but this is something to consider ...and not push forward with solutions potentially just making situation universally and completely bad.

In-world it will be MUCH harder to get accurate info first, but with increasing number of ponies things will become more clear. because, literally, it will be possible to just travel to places where they live/work and observe whole thing IRL, without filters. And well, even if your protagonist was moved initially into HLF - this doesn't mean he must stay there until very end. For any reasonable man pony's actions will eventually speak louder than any anti-pony propaganda.

Oh, I promised to keep it short, but ..I can't :( One final thing - humans usually try to find place where they think they will be safe. In this [imaginable] world ponification makes them immune to ..death, none the less. At least very immediate death-by-barrier. After humans realize ponies not just some barbarians but actually beings who will support them, and their 'land' IS land of opportunity (without sacrificing anypony in process) ... you can easily predict their vector of migration. Unlike our world, their sense of 'better world' will not desert them, finally .....

Your protagonist may NOT accept some world axioms, because he for example just healthy skeptical. Yet IMO only way to BE good man in such scenario - is to try and find out what REALLY goes on, without jumping to (potentially lethal) mis-conclusion. I hope in this imaginable future humans still can think before acting, at least when REAL lives depend on their actions.

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/131491/17/the-poly-little-pony/conspiracy-of-doves little story ala "Enemy mine"

6735239
I don't have the 'cred' in this site. But, I'm sure you can find people that would write a great Celestia for this concept in groups like
https://www.fimfiction.net/group/1216/celestia-is-the-best-pony
And
https://www.fimfiction.net/group/199784/aspects-of-celestia

Talk to people in the forums.

6734262
The "good vs. good" situation in my Bureau universe can easily be understood:

Picture a rusty, ancient, decrepit ship far out in the ocean. It is sinking, because there is a gigantic hole where the hull has buckled and water is rapidly filling the hold. There are no lifeboats, because nobody thought the expense was worth the cost. The ship has a hundred people on board, all of them grown, adult men. They will all die in mere hours. And, because they never maintained their ship, it is entirely their own fault.

Along comes a big, fancy, shiny luxury liner with thousands of cabins, a pool, recreational facilities and all manner of wonderful things on board. The fancy ship flies rainbow flags, and men are singing and dancing on its decks. It pulls up along side the sinking rustbucket and drops a gangplank. The captain of this ship calls out "Ahoy! Sinking ship! I promised one of your crew, years ago, that I would come save you if you ever began to sink! I keep my promises! Climb on board and you can live with us! You don't have to drown! There is only one thing - everybody on this ship has to wear nail polish! it's the rule!"

People from the sinking ship begin painting their nails, with help from beauticians sent over from the fancy ship. Then they dash across the gangplank to safety, as fast as they can.

But suddenly, some of the crew of the rustbucket stand up and block the gangplank, as best as they can. "Hey!" they say "Wearing nail polish is what faggots do! Everybody stay where you are! It's better to sink and die than to go on that boat and look like a faggot! We'll kill you if we have to! Nobody is going on that sissy faggot boat!"

Lots of men from the sinking ship still manage to get to the fancy ship, because more gang planks are dropped further along the deck. The angry rustbucket bigots try to run around stopping any of their crewmen from painting their nails. They beat any man they find doing that. They kill those that resist absolutely. The rustbucket bigots also try to cobble together small life rafts, but they don't have the skills or the materials. Some of the bigots just jump into the ocean to end it all, rather than face painting their nails. Some bigots try to invent some way to sink the fancy ship, or at least harm its captain.

Who is good and who is bad? Why?

In my stories, the earth is dying. It has been dying since our time. By the time of the Bureaus, it is essentially already dead. The world was killed because making money and having wars was more important than controlling population and creating a sustainable way of living. There is absolutely no way to save anyone. It is the absolute end of the world. Every human will die, and it is entirely their own fault.

Along comes Equestria. It is there because someone in the 13th century extorted a promise from Celestia. She always keeps her promises. She offers to allow humans a chance not to die, because she promised. They are free to take the offer, or not. But there is one thing - they have to wear pony bodies, with pony brains.

Some humans think that they would rather die than be a prissy pony. And they would rather everyone else die, too. They think they can find a way to save man on their own, but they don't have the skills or the resources. They are willing to beat or kill any human that becomes a pony and tries to go to Equestria. They plan ways to destroy Equestria and to try to kill Celestia for making her free offer.

Who is good and who is bad? Why?

6735695 (Chatoyance)

Welcome back!

I think there is little problem for anyone who _lives_ inside your world and have no access to all additional explanations given, no access to 'overview mode'. Probably, from strictly in-world information some humans can accept HLF position as legitime _initially_.

Thing is, as far as I remember ONLY near 100% sure way to talk with Celestia personally - is via Conversion Dream. And this experience is not something local cybernet can translate or fake. So, only humane AND sure way to talk with Celestia - actually go and allow yourself to be converted. Even if Celestia was said to be extremely strong willed (she outwitted most manipulative humans on Earth!) - I think she will listen to reasonable arguments, and provide reasons why such total conversion was necessary. [and some non-canon yet ways forward too]

I'm not sure if I can play part of this role, because ..well, I'm male, huh. And additionally, I can't just thrown modern web link like I did in this thread - because in-world Celestia will have memory only about selected periods of human history (personally observed/lived together, or recorder from few rare humans who somehow made connection to her between 13 and 21 century <-- this is my own addition/speculation).

So, may be we can make one Celestia out of two (or more) actors? Like in theater?

6735695

aw, nearly forgot! Was 'Going pony' <very good source of in-world information, I think> actually reference to phrase "Going native"?

"Going native" is a phrase passed on to us from 1800's America and before. It has lost some of it's history. As it turns out, many "pale face" -- including a surprising number of women -- would leave their communities to join native American tribes. Such an emmigration is anything but trivial.

same src as before

6735731

Thing is, as far as I remember ONLY near 100% sure way to talk with Celestia personally - is via Conversion Dream.

Celestia is available to any pony - or other creature - to have an audience with by appointment. She is available between mid morning and late afternoon, for four days of the six-day Equestrian week. Special audiences are available for dignitaries and emissaries by special arrangement. Additionally, four times a year - coinciding with the seasons - she holds galas and parties where she mingles with guests. The average waiting time for common appointments was originally two to three weeks, that rapidly jumped to six to eight weeks as the population of Equestria increased. By the one-hundred year mark, after Zero Point, a personal appointment with Celestia (or Luna) could involve a wait of up to a decade - but, to be fair, the population is over eleven billion by then, and every creature in the Equestrian cosmos is now completely immortal. So... a decade is nothing.

All of this is in the novels and shorts.

She has also interacted greatly outside of Equestria with the human ruling families, going so far as to split herself into more than nine hundred holographic duplicates which lived with every man, woman, and child of the ruling class for more than six months. For every second, of every day, for the entire six months. She also has appeared in person at every capital on the planet earth, giving speeches and meeting whoever attended, during the years of the Conversion Bureaus. She could also be summoned by high ranking officials according to various agreements and contracts. This is all in the novels too.

Additionally, she was directly involved with the creation of the conversion serum in various ways, and interacted with countless high-ranking scientists and officials. And occasionally... she simply went on day trips to talk and meet with the human populations of the favelas that spanned the globe. She made a point of being available. This is also all in the novels.

The six ambassadors, the Mane Six, covered where she was not available, and are depicted in several stories in that function and capacity.

Lastly - it is never proven in any way that the Conversion Dreams are actually real. They might be, or they might simply be an artifact of the reconstruction of the brain by encoded nanomachines and Equestrian thaumatic programs. In all of the books, there is great debate and question as to the veracity of the Conversion Dreams, with many convinced they are real, and others just as sure they are hallucinations. This is deliberate on my part.

And, again, all of this is in the novels and short stories.

6735750
(Chatoyance)

Yeah, this is part of my point -

She made a point of being available.

. Yet, as far as I remember, Celestia's power actually much better at Equestrian side. So, if for example she want to explain something by directly connecting human to reality of forces at play (via her body/senses) - then best place for doing so is Equestria... Majority of mages and their boos/scrolls actually lives there, etc, etc. Basically, same reason why one famous russian historical figure supposedly traveled very far .... (

In 1730, at nineteen, Lomonosov went to Moscow on foot, because he was determined to "study sciences".[7]

)

But if you _live_ in the world as described in Going Pony for example - you (as any human, or even Celestia) don't have information from your own future, only projections, extrapolations, and so on. And information for 'generic human population' quite ..filtered. So, figuring who is who will take some time ...

On human body - well, this one serve? :) (yes, pun intended). No, seriously, if for earthpony type you can just model something ...more-human-like, for pegasai ...well, _winged humans_ (yess!!) then for unicorns ....considering they need their horn not just for display .... :}

also, semi-related .. it seems phrase "Bam, Zoom, Straight to the Moon" actually measn something ... quite unfriendly.

The use of space travel as a metaphor for beating your wife.

Still, if celestia about to do this ... both _real_ reason, method and end result will be different. For example, I imagined soldier catapulted to nearly suborbit (with suitable protection, so he or she actually can enjoy it ..and remember it) as means to show at least one human what humans did with earth....

Also, side-effect of having all your memories with you during ponification and after it, as long as you live - you can, and probably should watch ALL your favourite films/cartoons/shows, (re)read your favourite books, etc etc :} Only time when overconsumption of [selected] media actually not bad :} And no, exactly thanks to changes in very fundamental structures of our empathy - you will not use all those tactics, strategy and demolition books against anypony* (* please use extended term from strict initial array from three types of ponies)

6735695

That might be less “Good vs Good”. And more “Good vs Insane”, or even “Good vs Petty Hate”. Feeling that your culture/people have the right to exist, doesn't mean hating other cultures.

If our resistance fighter would resort to methods like that (and that's quite an “if”), it would probably be with a heavy heart, and with the hope of it doing some greater good. Actuality, I kind of wish I hasn't said “resistance fighter”, because his means of resistance wouldn't necessarily be fighting (it might be non-violent or something). I just didn't know what other term to use.

With classical TCB in general: The aim seems to be to turn everyone into Equestrian Ponies, not simply to turn them into Ponies (i.e. no more Japanese, no more Zulus, etc). But if we're talking about the Chatoyance-verse specifically: Is that Celestia's aim? To make everyone into Equestrians?

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I'm sure Chatoyance can answer question about Zebras especially much better.

Problem with earth in this 'verse ..its killed, nearly completely!

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/272155/cross-the-amazon

Large swaths of the rain forest that had once covered the region had first been burned away to convert them to grasslands. The grasslands were used to raise cattle - but not intelligent, speaking cows. Calloway had been very quick to explain this when Dropspindle had become enraged. Unthinking cows. Like meat machines, and not at all like the bovine people she had met and known.

The humans murdered the cattle and ground up their corpses because in the Northamerizone, before the Collapse, 'hamburgers' were an inexpensive meal. 'Fast food' corporations made billions, even trillions of units of human money, and some of the poor people of the Southamerizone got to live - for a short time - almost as well as those who ate the hamburgers up north. But others paid the price of this temporary boon - the aboriginal humans who lived in the rainforest. They were just pushed off of the land, or killed, or forced into camps, or ended up wandering the concrete streets of the Spanish speaking humans.

The hamburger lords lived well by Southamerizone standards, but soon the grasslands died off and became sand and cracked earth. The rainforest was like a carpet over a desert, and when the carpet unraveled, it could never grow back. Grass lived for only a short time on the ruined soil left by the burning of the forest. Once the cattle had eaten it, it could not grow back either. So the hamburger lords sat on their fortunes until those too ran out.

- search for keyword 'desert'

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/72572/1/recombinant-63-a-conversion-bureau-story/one-the-siren-call-of-secrets

Nanotechnology had fully bloomed during the worst of the Great Collapse. It had been touted as the great salvation of humankind, but there had been problems. Soon, it was clear there would be no Diamond Age, no essentially magical future of mechanical pixie powder constructing houses while you watched, or granting immortality from within your bloodstream. The little machines were not magic. They needed power, and lots of it, and that was a problem, because most of the world's resources had already been giddily spent like some sailor's paycheck on shore leave. Oil was all but gone, what was left took more energy to get at than the energy it could provide. Nuclear power had left the Japanese people as wandering gypsies forever barred from ever setting foot on their homeland again - and they were not alone in the world in that regard. Solar and wind were not enough for everyone, and the demand just kept growing.

But even that was not the main problem. Nanotechnology generated heat when it did its microscopic magic. A great deal more heat than could be economically dealt with. It simply cost too much to use nanotech in every regard. And in medicine, it had very limited applications. The dream of using nanosurgical devices to construct a new arm or spleen or body from base elements was fundamentally impossible. The little machines moved, and movement was heat, and the heat was so great that it cooked living cells even as they tried to construct or repair them. The main thing nanotech turned out to be good for was manufacturing a simple, edible foodstuff from human waste.

So, humans in this 'verse literally were living due to machines, not real plants... It was already as much 'technomagical' as local physics allowed .... and if you read more you will realize climate was turning superhot (Antarctic ice was long gone, oceans ..dead), and having all this now essential machinery generating their own heat added to the problem .. so, this earth, despite somewhat optimistic humankind views (humans always ..overoptimistic), was strictly on path to become unlivable even by humans planet. Don't even ask for space travel - it never had chance to develop into billion-carrying, space-industrial category.

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With classical TCB in general: The aim seems to be to turn everyone into Equestrian Ponies, not simply to turn them into Ponies (i.e. no more Japanese, no more Zulus, etc). But if we're talking about the Chatoyance-verse specifically: Is that Celestia's aim? To make everyone into Equestrians?

While, in the tenth story of 'Tales Of Los Pegasus' we see that Celestia permitted three large cities to retain entirely and completely human cultures and nationalities and values from three different civilizations for about a hundred years, in general, She will not allow converted humans to make the same mistakes in her home. Just as any immigrant is expected to conform to the culture and laws of their new nation, so is humanity expected to conform to the culture of their new universe. This conforming is not generally caused by any law or rule or enforcement, rather human culture and nationality and ethnicity simply is discovered to be irrelevant once inside a new universe. With the earth gone, clinging to a nation becomes pointless. With no holy book predicting ponies or colliding universes, religion is rapidly seen as a fiction - after all, if any god could really see the future, or was in control of anything, surely they would have seen Equestria coming!

Celestia definitely is not going to allow humans to live in human ghettos and plot revolution. She is smarter than that. And she absolutely is not going to permit humans to continue their ethnic-cleansing, mass murdery, nationalistically violent, warlike ways - much less the horrors of capitalistic excess.

This is most perfectly stated in the short story '[url= https://www.fimfiction.net/story/131491/7/the-poly-little-pony/the-truth]The Truth', from my story collection 'The Poly Little Pony'. Let me allow Celestia herself to speak, as taken from that very story. The circumstance is that, in an alternate potential history, Celestia has been forced to address all of Equestria, long after the earth is gone, by former members of the Human Liberation Front. With a figurative gun to her head, she must tell all of Equestria the complete truth about everything she did, and why she did it. This is the relevant part:

"You were forced to become ponies. This was done because my subjects have had enough of violent, selfish, dangerous species being inflicted upon them. In the distant past, I allowed the dragons, the griffons, and the diamond dogs succor and a place to live in Equestria. They too came from dying worlds. The terrible toll their arrival caused my people nearly brought the downfall of Equestria itself. Only a fragile agreement - the Pax Equestria - has maintained peace. For now.

"You, former humans, were seen as being vastly more dangerous and frightening than either dragons or griffons. They merely killed and ate ponies. You killed and devoured a planet, and not because you needed to, but because it was profitable in the moment to do so. You were a ruthless and dominating species, driven to conquest and war. Your history was an abattoir of your own flesh, your own kin. Not even dragons slaughter entire races of their own kind. By any reasonable terms, you were an abomination to we magical beings.

"As ponies, you are incapable now of doing any more harm. Your songs, your stories, your thoughts - what of them that can be allowed - will continue. You and your cultures will not be erased forever from eternity. But the price to me in saving you was high, and because I am immortal, I will never entirely forgive your representative for forcing this upon me.

You should read the entire short story, it is short and there are many more answers within it.

I should mention that simply reading my works in general would answer every possible question: I am a very conscientious and thorough writer, and I have made it a point to craft a fully realized future history where nothing is left unexplained.

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Interesting. I'll read those stories.

And I agree that it's (usually) not right to immigrate to some other country, and make a bunch of demands that the country change to fit you. The immigrant should generally be expected to adapt to the host-country, instead of the other way around.

I also agree that if you wreak your own country (or planet): You can't demand that Equestria, America, or any other country take in massive numbers of refugees. It's justifiable to say “we can't trust you not to wreak our country the way you wreaked yours” (but say it with a heavy heart).

But here's where I think the immigration/refugee analogy is problematic (at least, if I understand the Chatoyance-verse correctly):

Equestria-proper is an island in the Pacific. But the lands the Barrier eats the “Exponential Lands” (I think): That's not Equestria. That's other countries, other people's homelands. That's America, Japan, the Zululands, etc. For Celestia to demand that a Zulu “adapt to Equestria” (or radically alter his body) if he wants to remain in his own homeland, that's pretty questionable.

But the keyword there is “questionable”, meaning it can be questioned. Good people can do questionable things. They can have different values, or make different judgment calls. They can even disagree on when it becomes morally acceptable, to do something that's normally-wrong for the greater good. That's why there are “good vs good” conflicts. Like a conflict between a good-hearted Celestia, and a good-hearted resistance fighter.

6737049 (solarfollow)

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/107318/13/human-in-equestria-a-conversion-bureau-story/13-the-six-new-mornings-asher-and-milo-part-three

Only one thing in their universe remained still - the ruins of their simple castle. It seemed ancient, yet it might have been thrown forth from Discord's chaos newly created to appear old. The sisters had memories, broken, fragmented memories, of having lived in the castle, but even these might well be entirely false.

The ruins of the castle were stable and still, and the sisters - for that is how they thought of themselves - clung to it while all around changed and swirled in senseless horror. The castle was also a clue - it was a direction that pointed beyond chaos to something the sisters wanted more than anything. Order.

Tiny peepholes, no larger than an earthly proton, were Celestia's answer. The castle had pointed the way, and Celestia had followed that glimmer of hope, and each brief new glimpse left the sisters hungry for more. New concepts entered their minds - flat surfaces that did not change, flat surfaces called 'land'. Piles of land, 'mountains', and pools of stable, constant water in 'lakes' and 'oceans' and 'ponds'. An arching dome above of pale blue and deep black that seemed to turn somehow.

Over great time, they took what they could see of the other world, and interpreted it as best they could. In this way the chaos was divided into land and chaos above, and eventually the chaos itself plastered over with a dome made from the underside of the land, space easily wrapped and twisted upon itself, for that is what the sisters understood and knew.

Eventually, Celestia spied life. The solid thing ran on hooves and panted with breath. It possessed tail and ears and eyes. If the universe was made better by order, then existence could only be better by being solid and still as well. The sisters took permanent shape, and walked, for the first time, upon the flatness they had made. And then, in such overwhelming stillness, they cried, for they knew they were alone.

Life, was a pattern. It could be reproduced. And in time, smaller, simpler versions of the now pony sisters walked the rugged land and nibbled the sparse vegetation that Celestia developed from her visions of beyond. The smaller ponies had eyes, and ears, and tails and hooves, and those hooves pounded the land as they galloped.

In short, ponies were created. Initially. And then evolved as society. Remarkably reluctant to those human problems.

Mind/body/environment even more interleaved in equestrian cosmos then they are/were on earth. So, I think, Celestia had _known working_ composite type of social beings, and not wanted to risk everypony with very same kind of rushed experiments as those ruined Earth.

Those ponies don't need 'governance' in human sense, they feel for each other, not just episodically, but all the time. No need to endlessly fighting your legacy, be it cultural or genetical.

So, I think you can shape your body in any form - as long you don't damage your mind to the point of removing literally part of your nature. For stopping this we have good old 'instinct' of self-preservation. With additions dealing with magical energies flow, and other things humans had not.

If you follow to Chatoyance's profile here you probably will find few links from me on her 'wall' (facebook term). One link explains how complex our brain (any brain) is. Ponies had basic structure of their bodies and brains copied from earth horses, yet they had separate 'evolution' (self-guided, informational). So, at point of collusion they were even more complex beings, both relative to first created by Celestia ponies and humans. Making changes to those living beings on the fly ...sounds too risky. Feels bad, too! I mean making changes to 'body plan' as it unfolds into organism. Humans were converted into form most known, and proven stable. keeping human body copied 1:1 with all flaws was possible, as link above explains, but ... it predictably lead to same problem as before.

It was civilization-wide rebirth, yet with all memory / conscious intact.

Nations probably never developed in (Chatoyance's) Equestria because ponies felt at all times their interconnection. Sensitivity bordering with empathy. Virtual infinite (!) Dunbar's number - number of beings you meaningfully can interact with. Probably something only possible in Equestrian space, too.

It all interconnected ...

6737049

Equestria-proper is an island in the Pacific. But the lands the Barrier eats (the “Exponential Lands”, I think): That's not Equestria. That's other countries, other people's homelands. That's America, Japan, the Zululands, etc. For Celestia to demand that a Zulu “adapt to Equestria” (or radically alter his body) if he wants to remain in his own homeland, that's pretty questionable.

Um... no. Not exactly. It's a little more complicated than that.

My Equestria is a pocket universe, approximately 24,000 km in diameter before it gobbles the spacetime and matter that comprise the region around the earth. It is essentially a flat plane covered with a crystal dome, the surface of the 'sky' wrapping hyperdimensionally into the material of the 'ground'. It is a hypersphere, existing outside our universe entirely. It is also a ship - a ship that sails the multiverse between universes - built by an ancient and enigmatic species long, long ago. But that is only revealed at the end, though it is hinted at throughout my series.

The cosmos of Equestria passes through the plane of our universe, like a sphere passing through a 2D surface. It starts as a point, enlarges to a maximum size of 24,000 kms, then shrinks back to a point and vanishes. It is not an island in the pacific. It is the intersection of two universes, each with differing physical constants and laws.

Celestia built the interior of the... ship.. that is Equestria based on tiny wormhole 'peeks' at our earth, in our universe. That is why she did not understand that the sky was not a dome, but a vast vacuum filled with other suns. Her imitation of our sun is a flat disk a thousand plus km in diameter that slides across the frictionless crystal 'sky'. She based her plants and ponies and other life on brief glimpses of the earth. That is why they don't look exactly 'right' and are cartoonish and odd.

Eventually, she visits our world, and that is when she is extorted by a human in the 13th century to save all of mankind. That story is here, in The 800 Year Promise.

When she finally comes, thanks to humans inventing nanotechnology - at last - she comes just before the earth dies. If she never came, mankind would slowly, agonizingly suffocate as the planet's air fouled. Then the earth would become a duplicate of venus, dead, hellish, and covered in sterile slag as the temperature grows to above the melting point of lead.

But, when Celestia pilots Equestria to intersect our spacetime, she absorbs the 24000 km sphere of our cosmos that contains the earth in order to afford to support all the humans she is saving. That spacetime and matter are both fuel and new... deck... for her vast ship. She uses that spacetime and matter to make more Equestria, to support the eleven billion humans she ultimately rescues from death. The earth is doomed anyway, and she needs the energy, time, and space to make room for so many humans, and all the air, ground, water, and time they will need to exist in. In effect, she uses the earth to build more room for the humans to live in within her cosmos. Without that new timespace and matter, she would not be able to save humanity at all.

So, basically, Celestia performs cosmic salvage on a wrecked planet, and uses the materials salvaged to provide living space for a vast number of refugees from an already dead world. She isn't being greedy: she is using the humans planet only to save the humans... who would have died if she had not intervened. Always keep in mind that without Equestria, the story is simply that all humans die because they were stupid and killed their own planet, the end.

I have one reader who does not like my Bureau stories because she thinks that the humans shouldn't be saved: they should suffer and die because they killed the earth. She feels that letting the humans off, and giving them a free ticket to survive isn't justice. I suppose... I am more forgiving, which is why I have Celestia ultimately save them.

I don't write fantasy. There is zero magic in my Bureau stories. What humans and ponies call 'magic' is just alien physics and high technology so advanced that it can manufacture time, space, and life itself... with enough fuel. The earth... and the spacetime it sits in... becomes that fuel. All of this is explained in the very last novel, Adrift On Fiddler's Green.

6737121

I think my point stands. Yes, Equestria is a universe. Yes, Equestria isn't native to the Earth or to our universe (I've read “Cross The Amazon”, so I know that much). Regardless, Equestria appeared on Earth in the Pacific Ocean. Then the Barrier expanded, and ate the Earth.

And yes, if it weren't for Celesta's intervention, we'd be toast (well, our grandkids would be). That's quite an argument in Celesta's favor! I'm just saying that there's room for a good vs good conflict, between a good-hearted Celestia and a good-hearted resistance fighter.

Well, that's my main point. My secondary point is: I think your immigration/refugee comparison has some holes in it. And that's okay. Different situations are different. When it comes to complicated subjects like this, it's not often that you can make a truly exact comparison. But it's still useful to make comparisons.

“I don't write fantasy. There is zero magic in my Bureau stories.”

If magic existed, it would not be “outside of science”. Because science's job is to understand the universe, and that includes magic in a universe where magic exists. I suppose what I'm saying is: I'm not seeing the difference between “magic” and “alien physics”.

...and I still insist for both Celestia and human still having their heads with them, at usual places, during their conflict discussion ...

I understand 'good-hearted' is common expression. Still, use head, please ....

6737152
Heart without head can be a problem (and visa versa).

Absolutely!

I was also thinking about one not minor detail. Body. In this universe ponification not just changes you into pony body, and tweaks your brain, but this body will be in 'near perfect' condition for everypony, and will age .. nicely. Not counting in-world 'afterlife'. This was something promised officially, If i remember correctly. In other words - Celestia's level promise.

I don't think you can yank this away from all those humans who seriously wanted and/or objectively need this. Nor, by extension, your human protagonist..

While from start to end longevity observation is not possible (you have less than 8 years, and last half of this period ...will be intense) - i think some surprisingly old (by year count) but surprisingly young native ponies might visit Earth, confirming in person this talk about _long_ and _good_ life was not just another empty/exaggerated talk ...

6737049
Actually, question about what is culture (and cultures) today, and how they will be translated forward in such globally-transformative scenario is very interesting.

For example, as far as I understand, ponies can freely use all human spoken languages (no specific anatomical or neurocontrol problems). They most likely will use one or few common languages <Esperanto, anyone? [1]> in addition to their past one, because learning them will be easier. As long as you have magical unicorn, and you nearly always will have one around ..

next, on harder questions like 'cultural transmission by force'. What if somepony will want all his/her kids (few, due to different biology, but still), or friends, or villagers to make same ritual, or literally paint themselves into same color? Well, first this idea will become ..unattractive, universally unattractive. I mean forcing part. Nearly nopony will like to PUSH it into others. Second, ~everpony will feel free to disagree, unless you need this specific dance, or ceremony for something (something can be just fun way to spend time. sometimes fun can be quiet.).

It really hard to imagine this process on mass-scale, because yes, modern humans (most of them, most of the time) do not think, and do not act like this. May be one epoch long ago we were more able. I really hope my new find (L. Reichard White's unfinished manuscript) will provide some fuel for your/our imagination.

[1]

I do not know the whole story of the 1966 Petition; some or all of what I have heard may be a part of Esperanto's mythology, alluded to elsewhere in this book. To start with, the Secretariat of the United Nations informed UEA that it could do nothing about this Petition, because any resolution having to do with language would have to be introduced in the General Assembly by one of the member-states of the U.N. UEA prepared, from time to time, to raise the matter again, but each time it came up -- or so I remember! -- one or more member-states seemed also prepared to raise the matter, and UEA held its intervention in abeyance, not wanting to offend or interfere with any possible ally. In this way, nothing ever got done. Eventually UEA inquired into the status of the Petition, and was coolly informed that in the course of events it had been lost. To my knowledge, that was the end of the affair.

Since I played a (very minor) role in collection of that Petition, the question of its loss has bothered me for many years now. If I remember the page I collected correctly, and assuming that not all sheets were completely filled with signatures, the Petition must have contained between twenty-five and a hundred thousand pages -- the equivalent of several shelves of Steven King novels. Lost? I hope that the high officials of the U.N. Secretariat during that period will pardon my public incredulity!

(yes, I read this piece some time ago, remembered it just enough to make new web search much later. here it is. Ponies will not have (initially!) anything like Internet, but spoken language, their personal stories and favourites will be all with them .... It sort of hard to argue you are big supporter of cultural aspect X - if you can't even recall few lines about it from memory. I known nearly nothing about my father's african roots, I just have heap of letters in French from my mother to him, all from nearly 40 years ago, and I never learned French in all those years! Only truely _russian_ thing I do everyday is speaking in russian, and most of jokes etc already international.)

6736901
I've read those stories (actuality, I read them a few days ago). And they were gold! It was bittersweet to see that three nations remained. Bitter that the Earth's other nations were gone, but sweet that three live.

I can see Celestia and our resistance fighter respecting each-other, and seeing each-other as good people. Maybe after Celestia defeats our resistance fighter, she gives him the choice to live with the renaming cultural-humans. To help them build those cities. Both as an act of respect to a worthy opponent, and because she wants those “human” cities to succeed.