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I have just now finished watching the Blu-Ray of My Little Pony: The Movie and I have some things to say about it.

There is much to reccommend about the production; the music is fine, the artwork is fine, the vocal talents are fine, the production values are fine. Hasbro didn't shove any of the regular staff and creative talent out the airlock, as so many TV-to-Movie efforts often do, all the regulars from the show were present in this movie. There was some clever bits in the dialogue, no denying that, and a few clever media references as well. Somebody clearly likes obscure Miyazaki (Cat, I am looking at you!), somebody else knows the history of the franchise (not quite true Seaponies, but close enough... and infinitely better all around.)

I'm not going to carp on basic canon worldbuilding tossed out the window, it's minor and picky. Neither am I going to complain about the 'dying in the desert' scene where everpony could have been saved in literally a canon twenty seconds flat, had Rainbow Dash merely looked up at the background scene and noticed the clouds in the sky. Clouds filled with water. That could be brought down and wrung out like spunges by any pegasus at all. Even Derpy could do that much. No, I am not going to complain about such minor problems.

A good writer should, and will, put their characters through hell on occasion. A good writer will always portray their characters with flaws and neurotic qualities: such traits make characters both relatable, and real. More than this, character flaws permit drama and problems which need solving, and are fundimental, basic tools in the toolbox of any talented author.

What you never, ever, ever do is assassinate an established character.

In the movie, Twilight Sparkle, the established Princess Of Friendship, who has ascended to a higher plane of existence because she has worked to become the very essence of friendship itself within her entire universe, with a power of friendship supposedly equal to the ability to raise the sun and the moon, an alicorn - the very equivalent of a greek goddess within (Faustian, if not Hasbro) canon, Twilight Sparkle betrays her friends, acts like a common thief, and destroys relations with a foreign power, all under the lying guise of pretending to make friends. She uses her best friends as pawns, setting them up to be loathed and despised and seen as betrayers, while she ineffectually tries to steal a magical whatsit from seapony-ized hippogryphs that are trying to be nice to her.

Let's put that more clearly.

Twilight Sparkle, who literally is friendship, betrays her values, friends, and character... for no reason at all.

"Oh! You are SOOOO wrong! Jesus fuck, did you even watch the movie? Her entire nation was captured and enslaved, Celestia and all the other princesses were overthrown, and she was desperate to save all the ponies! THAT'S the reason, IDIOT!"

I see. Then it is reasonable for a person, a character, to suddenly, and with no prior esablished basis, to just throw away everything they stand for and are and ever were, because bad stuff happened? Really? If you think this, I never want to have to depend on you. That is the very definition of faithless and untrustworthy, which Twilight, as a character, has clearly never been shown to be. She is the princess of friendship. The basis of any friendship is trust. The second basis of friendship is faith in your friends, which also is trust. In fact trust and friendship are the same thing. Absolute trust: absolute frienship.

A real friend will never stab you in the back, not ever, especially not when everything is terrible, because that is exactly the entire point of friendship as a thing. Anything less and that is no friend, and never was.

This is a storytelling mistake so awesome in its wretchedness that it is almost beyond comprehension. It is literal character assassination. It destroys Twilight Sparkle - despite all the forgiveness, despite all the happy words - forever.

"But they made up! Her friends forgave her and they said everyone makes mistakes and..."

Yes, they said that. And yes, forgiveness is important, especially in friendship. And yes, everyone makes mistakes, even big ones. But what people don't do, what a character must never, ever do, is suddenly become a completely different person entirely, with completely different values, for no reason at all.

"But she had a reason! I just said that her kingdom was under attack and..."

No. That is not a reason. That is a circumstance. There is a literary difference.

The circumstance in the movie is that Bad Stuff Is Happening. Bad stuff always happens in stories, it's how you have drama and adventure. There are always bad guys, there is always a problem that is Too Horrible. Nasty circumstances are the opportunities for characters to show... their true character.

Remember the two-part pilot? Nightmare Moon, bad stuff, endless night, world-destroying madness? Each of the Mane Six are individually tempted by that shape-shifting Luna-As-Moon to turn and betray the party. That circumstance is how they all became friends and how Twilight learned friendship in the first place. That circumstance of Bad Things Happening is how we learned who these characters are: because every one of them refused to turn against each other, or their own ideals. That is what made them heroes. That literally defined them. They are the Elements Of Harmony - they can be confused or tempted, but in the end, they are heroically incorruptible. That is the basis of all of their enormous power. That is why they are the Mane Six at all.

In My Little Pony: The Movie, Twilight Sparkle, the most heroically incorruptible pony of all (she became an alicorn!) literally turns one-hundred-and-eighty degrees on her own ideals to use her friends as tools and betray their trust, their friendship, and any possible real trust between Equestria and this new nation of Hippogryphs. Yes, bad stuff was happening. That is the moment when ideals matter the most, when character is proven, where the true self comes out.

Until this point, in all of My Little Pony, Twilight might do anything: she might be neurotic. She might be afraid. She might run away for a bit. She might yell, or get upset, or stomp around. She might complain, or cry or whimper. She might fail and look like a fool. She might screw up everything - but she would never, ever, ever betray her friends.

Why?

Do you really have to ask? Because she is the Princess Of Friendship itself! She is the physical embodyment of friendship in her world. Whatever else her character can be made to do by an author, the one thing she can never do is betray friendship. Because it literally defines her as a character in the first place. That is her one incorruptible trait.

"But authors DO corrupt characters!"

Yes, they do. But a good author trying this trick understands two vital things. One, that if they pull that string, if they corrupt a character, then no matter how much forgiveness and redemption comes, that character is forever tainted. They can never be completely trusted again. They have been given a permanent weakness.

The second thing is that there must be a basis for such a corruption to occur. There has to be some kind - any kind - of previous history, some indication, that such corruption is possible at all. This is even more vital in a heroic character, who is defined by being Better Than Ordinary Folk.

Only terrible authors, only the worst writers, arbitrarily and without basis, force their established characters to do something entirely antithetical to their nature. Things don't happen without a cause. Only poor writers have things happen without a cause.

"But, her e-mails! No! I mean, but her kingdom!"

Again, that is a circumstance, not a cause. A cause for character corruption has to be within them. There has to be an established reason why they have a weakness that can be corrupted. If a character is defined by being incorruptable, then something incredibly powerful has to happen to break them, to shatter the very core of their identity... and that something cannot be just another Problem Of The Week.

"But the army of the Storm King immobilized and captured Celestia and Luna and..."

So did the Changeling Queen. Problem of the week. Besides - what in any of that is inside Twilight herself? Nothing. All of that is external to her identity. All of any of that is circumstances happening around her... and even then, circumstances she has dealt with before.

"But Equestria was DOOOMED!"

Equestria is always doomed. Every villian dooms Equestria. Sombra doomed Equestria. Discord doomed Equestria. The Changelings doomed Equestria. Equestria has been doomed more often than some people have ever tasted ice cream. 'Doomed' is a nationally recognized day of the week in Equestria. It is no reason for Twilight Sparkle, Alicorn Of Friendship to suddenly spit on everything she is, believes in, and is defined by. That's not possible.

That is not even marginally decent writing. It's bad writing. It's terrible, amateurish writing. It's the Worst Of Fimfiction Bad level writing. In a movie. In a professionally created movie.

*Drops Mic*

Twilight was never defined as being incorruptible. I mean, maybe you've forgotten since she became a princess and started being 'heavily medicated' as someone put it, but she's kind of prone to doing crazy things under stress.

She uses her best friends as pawns, setting them up to be loathed and despised and seen as betrayers, while she ineffectually tries to steal a magical whatsit from seapony-ized hippogryphs that are trying to be nice to her.

Yes, obviously being ineffective was her plan. If she hadn't gotten caught (by the ridiculous contrivance of the hippogryphs deciding to help because of a song and dance number, which didn't even make sense) they would have all been out of there before anyone knew the pearl was missing. She couldn't 'betray' the hippogryphs because they were being jerks.

She was setting herself up to be a hero like Daring Do. Only... somehow she screwed it up.

In a previous episode she showed that she'll happily sneak into places she's not allowed and borrow things that don't belong to her. She's not planning to keep them, but she wasn't planning to keep the pearl either. ... she got caught that time too, I guess.

Oh this is a very interesting review. I've watched the movie twice (once at home, once at the local cinema) and really liked it. Here's why I never really thought much about the whole "Twilight betrays friendship" thing.

There's this one premise that the review rests upon, which I fervently disagree with.

Do you really have to ask? Because she is the Princess Of Friendship itself! She is the physical embodyment of friendship in her world. Whatever else her character can be made to do by an author, the one thing she can never do is betray friendship. Because it literally defines her as a character in the first place. That is her one incorruptible trait.

The second thing is that there must be a basis for such a corruption to occur. There has to be some kind - any kind - of previous history, some indication, that such corruption is possible at all. This is even more vital in a heroic character, who is defined by being Better Than Ordinary Folk.

My impression of MLP has been precisely the opposite of this. In other words, that the (former) Elements of Harmony are intentionally imperfect. They're not flawless or incorruptible beings that always uphold their key personality traits; no, they are flawed beings who have a dominant personality trait which forms their Element, but this part of who they are can always be worn down sometimes.

In real life, there is no such thing as a flawless or incorruptible being. The characters of MLP:FiM are the same. They're not some idealistic flawless beings; no, they're designed to be realistic beings who make mistakes. In fact, it could be argued that there's no such thing as a flawless being who always upholds their personality trait, because such traits are subjective, and morality is never black and white.

A few examples of ponies going against their elements:

S1 E25 and S4 E12– Pinkie lost her laughter.
S6 E11– Fluttershy behaved in a way that didn't seem very kind towards Zephyr Breeze, because from her perspective doing so was for the greater good.
S7 E9– Applejack learned that it isn't always good to be completely honest.
S7 E26– Twilight thought that friendship couldn't work out with Stygian.

I'm sure there are more examples of similar things,
So... the fact that Twilight abandoned friendship in the movie because she thought it was the right thing... I find it believeable.

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Ultimately it all depends on each viewer's headcanon, though. If you consider the Mane 6 to be incorruptible and moral beings, then the movie obviously flies in the face of that, and you might be inclined to not like the movie as much as a result.

Maybe, had Lauren Faust continued as a writer, things would have been different and the Mane 6 would have been more flawless and ideal beings. Who knows.

----------------------

This reminds me of a lot of philosophical debates, actually. Like that old question "do different people see colors differently". Basically, anyone who watches MLP will come out with slightly different beliefs about the nature of each of the characters... The Twilight Sparkle living in my head is slightly different to the one living in Chatoyance's head, which is slightly different to the one living in terrycloth's head, which is slightly different to the one living in Lauren Faust's head...

There's not a lot that can be done about this problem really. It's just the way perception works. :)

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6275630

As I stated, flaws make the character and are vitally important. All of the Mane Six were originally concieved of as having many flaws, indeed, Faust used a chart that listed both their primary characteristic and its companioning fault. That is not in any way disputed. Without flaws, every character becomes boring. Twilight has to be a bit autistic and nerdy, neurotic and obssessive, Fluttershy has to suffer from generalized anxiety disorder, Rainbow Dash needs that boastful pride and cocky, abrasive attitude. As I stated, that is where drama and story comes from... in part.

What I am objecting to is something quite different than mere flaws. At the core of every heroic - non ordinary - character, be it Superman, or Heracles, or Twilight Sparkle, there has to be some heroically superhuman, incorruptable core. All ordinary folk are easily led astray, but heroes must be better. That is what makes them heroes, rather than just ordinary folk who never save the day or save the universe, or save the world.

This movie broke the core characteristic of Twilight. It chose to violate - for no reason given, with no previously demonstrated basis - the essential truth, the ultimate core of the character as described and shown over countless episodes. That is different than giving a character a flaw. That is why it is character assassination.

Consider the myth of Jesus Christ. Son of god, but human too, he has many flaws - he can get very angry, for example, and kick over the livlihoods of businessmen just because they are (with full permission) operating near a house of worship. But that is just a flaw, a simple character flaw. He isn't nice, or peaceful all of the time, he has issues.

But what if some bible author broke Jesus in the manner done to Twilight in this movie? Jesus, say, unconsciously uses his god powers to see into the future. He is so upset at Judas betraying him that he tracks Judas down, and murders the man in a dramatic and horrifying scene reminiscent of the Inquisition? That would be against every thing that Jesus - as a character - stands for, is, and is represented to be in every story about the man. That would be character assassination. Whether or not he is forgiven and turns himself in for a quick crucifixion, we now know that the 'prince of peace' doesn't just get angry, he gets vengeance just like any common schub in the Roman Jewish ghetto. He is no longer heroic, he is no longer special... beyond having magic. The magical powers are not what makes the character of Jesus interesting... what makes the character matter is that he is incorruptable, a hero, who forgives even Judas.

I made my case clearly, I thought, but perhaps not clearly enough. Characters should have flaws: but if they are heroes, only if they are heroes, they must have some indestructable something within them. Or they are not heroes.

That is my point, and I see nothing in either of your comments that offers an alternative. Flaws: good! Completely breaking the character: bad! That is what Hasbro did.

That said, I enjoyed the movie. Had a great time. But... they screwed that one bit.

6275651
understood...

I think we just have completely different views of what MLP canon actually is.

I don't consider the Mane 6 to be heroes who have some incorruptible aspect that makes them heroes. No, I consider them to be completely-ordinary ponies, who were magically sought out by the Elements of Harmony due to them having certain traits. And that the Elements gave them the magical ability to do heroic deeds. But this doesn't change their nature as corruptible and flawed ponies. The Mane 6 are less corruptible than most ponies, yes, but still fully corruptible.

As for the Biblical analogy... the Bible is an ideal story with a clear hero... Jesus is a hero who's clearly different to ordinary people. But I believe the Mane 6 are just normal ponies, the same as everypony else. And the Mane 6 only gained their abilities because the Elements, quasi-sentient and magical objects, believed that the Mane 6 were the most suitable ponies to attach to. And so the Elements began the path to bring their bearers together, with the Rainboom.

----------------

Now, I don't mean to discredit your beliefs regarding the nature of the Mane 6. They're perfectly sensible beliefs to have, and I completely respect those beliefs. It's just that my headcanon developed differently to yours... that's all.

I hope that's okay. Peace? :)

6275651
I don't agree with your basic premise about heroes, at all. Superman and Captain America might have that, but most don't. It's a special, optional thing that makes for a particular, small, subset of heroes.

Also, I think you're vastly, vastly overstating the horribleness of what Twilight did.

This movie broke the core characteristic of Twilight. It chose to violate - for no reason given, with no previously demonstrated basis - the essential truth, the ultimate core of the character as described and shown over countless episodes. That is different than giving a character a flaw. That is why it is character assassination.

What, that she'll always trust her friends? She's violated that dozens of times. She usually ends up coming around and trusting them in the end but there have been plenty of plot points where she initially cuts them out of her plans.

She's not good at friendship. It's valuable to her but she struggles with it. Since she became a princess she *thinks* she's good at it but she's still really not. Discord teases her about that all the time.

6275618
I certainly agree Hasbro didn't put their best foot forward (yeah, understatement I know). Seriously, would it have killed them to be bring back Lauren Faust for the MLP movie?!? Hasn't the toy salespeople figured out that the best way to sell a toyline is to have a good story and compelling characters. Even without a toyline, at least companies will pay top dollar for commercials if a show has good ratings.

Edit: though a friend of mine said the MLP movie was better than the Wonder Woman movie but that's not saying much since that was the only DC cinematic universe movie he liked.

6275618

I'm not going to carp (I think you mean crap) on basic canon worldbuilding tossed out the window, it's minor and picky. Neither am I going to complain about the 'dying in the desert' scene where everpony could have been saved in literally a canon twenty seconds flat, had Rainbow Dash merely looked up at the background scene and noticed the clouds in the sky. Clouds filled with water. That could be brought down and wrung out like spunges by any pegasus at all. Even Derpy could do that much. No, I am not going to complain about such minor problems.

I personally think that made it better, MUCH BETTER. It showed that they struggled to get through the desert rather than simply having a quick save to make it easier.

Twilight Sparkle, who literally is friendship, betrays her values, friends, and character... for no reason at all.

She thought that pearl would aid in defeating the Storm King but yeah, she was rather ignorant in not knowing that things would go straight to hell when she could have used diplomacy with Queen Novo after establishing a decent friendship with her.

I see. Then it is reasonable for a person, a character, to suddenly, and with no prior esablished basis, to just throw away everything they stand for and are and ever were, because bad stuff happened? Really? If you think this, I never want to have to depend on you. That is the very definition of faithless and untrustworthy, which Twilight, as a character, has clearly never been shown to be. She is the princess of friendship. The basis of any friendship is trust. The second basis of friendship is faith in your friends, which also is trust. In fact trust and friendship are the same thing. Absolute trust: absolute frienship.

A real friend will never stab you in the back, not ever, especially not when everything is terrible, because that is exactly the entire point of friendship as a thing. Anything less and that is no friend, and never was.

This is a storytelling mistake so awesome in its wretchedness that it is almost beyond comprehension. It is literal character assassination. It destroys Twilight Sparkle - despite all the forgiveness, despite all the happy words - forever.

"But they made up! Her friends forgave her and they said everyone makes mistakes and..."

Yes, they said that. And yes, forgiveness is important, especially in friendship. And yes, everyone makes mistakes, even big ones. But what people don't do, what a character must never, ever do, is suddenly become a completely different person entirely, with completely different values, for no reason at all.

"But she had a reason! I just said that her kingdom was under attack and..."

No. That is not a reason. That is a circumstance. There is a literary difference.

Ever think they may have done that to add to the drama and add depth to the story line? I personally think it was a very good learning lesson for Twilight....don't try and commit larceny, don't use your friends to aid in said larceny, think about how you screwed up and why your friends are so mad at you rather than throwing a fit. Think you could have done better? From what you are saying, you would have kept things the same old-same old, nothing new. I honestly think they had Twilight showing that she isn't this perfect pony and does make mistakes in her decisions LIKE THE REST OF US. It makes her seem more real.

In My Little Pony: The Movie, Twilight Sparkle, the most heroically incorruptible pony of all (she became an alicorn!) literally turns one-hundred-and-eighty degrees on her own ideals to use her friends as tools and betray their trust, their friendship, and any possible real trust between Equestria and this new nation of Hippogryphs. Yes, bad stuff was happening. That is the moment when ideals matter the most, when character is proven, where the true self comes out.

Until this point, in all of My Little Pony, Twilight might do anything: she might be neurotic. She might be afraid. She might run away for a bit. She might yell, or get upset, or stomp around. She might complain, or cry or whimper. She might fail and look like a fool. She might screw up everything - but she would never, ever, ever betray her friends.

Why?

Do you really have to ask? Because she is the Princess Of Friendship itself! She is the physical embodyment of friendship in her world. Whatever else her character can be made to do by an author, the one thing she can never do is betray friendship. Because it literally defines her as a character in the first place. That is her one incorruptible trait.

So basically she must remain perfect then, right? Nopony is perfect, not Twilight, not Celestia, not Luna, etc. Did you think this in "Putting Your Hoof Down" when Fluttershy did a complete 180? Did you think this in "Tanks for the Memories" when Rainbow cried and cried over Tank going to hibernate? To me it makes her more interesting and could give more story ideas for her rather than simply being perfect.

Only terrible authors, only the worst writers, arbitrarily and without basis, force their established characters to do something entirely antithetical to their nature. Things don't happen without a cause. Only poor writers have things happen without a cause.

But there WAS a reason. Yes Twilight tricked her friends into keeping Princess Skystar occupied while Queen Novo was getting her seaweed wrap or whatever it was so she could steal the pearl BUT it was because Equestria was under attack. Ever think that she just lost all rational thought and simply snapped when her friends yelled at her? This was not terrible writing, it was showing that Twilight is not the embodiment of perfection, NOPONY is perfect.

"But the army of the Storm King immobilized and captured Celestia and Luna and..."

So did the Changeling Queen. Problem of the week. Besides - what in any of that is inside Twilight herself? Nothing. All of that is external to her identity. All of any of that is circumstances happening around her... and even then, circumstances she has dealt with before.

"But Equestria was DOOOMED!"

Equestria is always doomed. Every villian dooms Equestria. Sombra doomed Equestria. Discord doomed Equestria. The Changelings doomed Equestria. Equestria has been doomed more often than some people have ever tasted ice cream. 'Doomed' is a nationally recognized day of the week in Equestria. It is no reason for Twilight Sparkle, Alicorn Of Friendship to suddenly spit on everything she is, believes in, and is defined by. That's not possible.

Yes Equestria has been doomed in the past but take this into account, Twilight and her friends were in a foreign land and she discovers this object that could potentially save Equestria. She didn't have the Elements with her, she didn't have her brother and Cadence to spread love, she didn't have a crystal heart, she didn't have Rainbow Power and everypony and their dog knows that diplomacy sure the hell wasn't going to work with the Storm King the way it did Starlight Glimmer.

That is not even marginally decent writing. It's bad writing. It's terrible, amateurish writing. It's the Worst Of Fimfiction Bad level writing. In a movie. In a professionally created movie.

*Drops Mic*

You know what I see here? I see someone throwing a fit because the movie did not go the way they thought it should. You are upset because they gave Twilight a flaw, which is something that every good character has. There is a reason people despise overpowered OCs with zero flaws....nopony can relate with them and they completely ruin the story line....and besides, is Twilight's betrayal even going to carry over into season 8 or will it be like Twilight's visit to the human world that isn't even part of the series in FiM. So calm the hell down, it won't affect her character in the show.

6275618
Dang it twilight -_-tho to be fair, the level stress and pressure for dire the situation it was might have played a part on Twilight's mistake.There is no magic macguffin,no alicorn help other than herself,and it is only just her and her friends fighting the army of King Storm.I blame the writers for her 180.Tho I also thank them for giving the lesson to not backstab her friends.
Tho I understand your plight. Let's hope for if another mlp movie comes, The mane six don't go through another one 180 unless mind control is involved.

6275932

I'm not going to carp (I think you mean cr**) on basic canon worldbuilding

I believe "carp" is correct. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carp#Etymology_2

You know what I see here? I see someone throwing a fit because the movie did not go the way they thought it should. You are upset because they gave Twilight a flaw, which is something that every good character has. There is a reason people despise overpowered OCs with zero flaws....nopony can relate with them and they completely ruin the story line....and besides, is Twilight's betrayal even going to carry over into season 8 or will it be like Twilight's visit to the human world that isn't even part of the series in FiM. So calm the hell down, it won't affect her character in the show.

until this final paragraph I was with you... I do agree that it's a good thing that characters like Twilight have flaws, that Twilight might abandon her key values like friendship when under immense pressure and she thinks there's no alternative.

But that's no reason to be belligerent towards those who have different beliefs about the nature of character flaws. To me, the tone of this paragraph feels a bit disrespectful and not conducive to civil discourse. It's nicer when we try to criticize the argument itself, not the person making the argument. :)

The especially sad part about this is that they had several ways of handling it which would leave the friends feeling betrayed but Twilight considerably more justified.

- ONE -

The queen says they can't leave because only the power of the gem hides them. Twilight asks if she can study the gem to understand its power of concealment. Queen says she can't – it's too powerful. Twilight takes this as a challenge. She doesn't try to steal it, just get a much closer, in-depth look… but this is interpreted as trying to steal it.

- TWO -

The queen makes it clear that they will not be allowed to leave. Twilight asks to simply go, and the queen denies her request. Twilight insists, and the queen insists harder. Twilight asks if she's a prisoner; the queen denies it; Twilight denies her denial, and only backs down to say that she will not fight her.

The other 5 miss this exchange, and Twilight stews, and keeps it secret from them - possibly as she is required to by the queen. But privately, she considers their imprisonment an act of war. So… taking stuff on the way out would not be out of line.

Then things happen as in the movie for a while, and Twilight describes the incident saying they couldn't leave, and is not believed.

- THREE -

Daughter steals it after talking with Twilight. Twilight didn't exactly ask her to, but when daughter summarizes their conversation that way, she can't deny that it's accurate. She tries to explain that she was just venting about her situation, but they queen and other mane 5 are not impressed.

- FOUR, not such a small change, but still pretty well contained -

Strife (from the prequels, some foreshadowing would be needed in the movie itself, not such a small change) followed them in. It tries to steal the gem and kidnap Twilight in the same move - his method is to make her 'overhear' the falsified voice of the queen expounding some sort of evil plot involving the gem. This would make Twilight think that taking it would be morally imperative in itself. Like, must do it right now, no time to get the others.

They are then kicked out; Strife then summons Tempest to pick up the bounty on Twilight; since he wants the gem for himself doesn't tell her about that.

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I certainly agree Hasbro didn't put their best foot forward (yeah, understatement I know). Seriously, would it have killed them to be bring back Lauren Faust for the MLP movie?!?

Regarding Lauren Faust, I have a friend who met her at Equestria LA last year and from what she told me, Faust was basically forced out after season two because of story line differences so even if they had asked her, she likely would have said no.

6275974

until this final paragraph I was with you... I do agree that it's a good thing that characters like Twilight have flaws, that Twilight might abandon her key values like friendship when under immense pressure and she thinks there's no alternative.

But that's no reason to be belligerent towards those who have different beliefs about the nature of character flaws. To me, the tone of this paragraph feels a bit disrespectful and not conducive to civil discourse. It's nicer when we try to criticize the argument itself, not the person making the argument. :)

Ok, maybe I was a bit of an asshole in the way I stated it but I am right about it not affecting Twilight, how she is perceived by her friends and the fact that Twilight's betrayal won't even be thought of in season 8.

6276259
Ask yourself this, StormLuna: has there ever been, anywhere in the televison series, any evidence that the character of Twilight Sparkle was a cold-hearted user and a straight-up thief?

If not, then... that is my entire point. That is the only point I am making. Is there any basis to ever believe, even under duress, that The Princess Of Friendship is a user and a thief?

If not, if that cannot be justified, if that is against everything she is as a character... then that is bad writing. That is all that I am saying.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with whether or not I liked the movie (I did) or whether the movie went any particular direction I wanted it to (I had no expectations at all) or any other factor.

Is Twilight, historically, a thief and a liar who uses people? The answer, yes or no, determines whether or not you agree with me.

6276904

Is Twilight, historically, a thief and a liar who uses people? The answer, yes or no, determines whether or not you agree with me.

First off, regardless of what the answer is, it does not mean anything about whether I agree with you or not. Regarding Twilight, she hasn't exhibited such behavior BUT I do not think it is bad writing. I personally think it was brilliant because it showed that there is a first time for everything. Yes Twilight was a bitch and a thief in that part of the movie but she learned a damn good lesson out of what happened. Isn't that what MLP is supposed to be about?, learning lessons about friendship?

Could they have handled that situation in a different way?, yes they could have but it would not have been as entertaining. Also you bring up how Twilight is basically the embodiment of friendship and deemed her as a hero who should be exempt from having really bad moments. You can sit there and think that heroes are on a higher level than the "common folk" and not have moments like that but Twilight is still a pony like everypony else....Extreme stress can cause people to devolve into something they're not and given everything that was going on and her extreme desire to save Equestria and free her fellow princesses, it isn't all that surprising the writers had her do that. We all have our own opinions on this. You think it was bad writing while I think it was a stroke of pure genius, going against the grain like that.

6276931

Regarding Twilight, she hasn't exhibited such behavior BUT I do not think it is bad writing.

To accept this, you ask me to accept that a person can - for no reason whatsoever - suddenly and completely change their core personality and ideals. Because it is convenient at the time.

Every effect must have a cause. There must be a cause for something to happen.

Outside of a stroke, I can think of no thing that will change a person fundamentally, in an instant, for no reason. Base personality in humans is set by the age of six. A person may grow and change over time, but their base personality does not - with the exception of damage to the brain. Values may change, but it is a process that takes time - years - of experiences and events that slowly, gradually can be seen to alter a person. This didn't happen in this movie, and it hasn't happened in the series.

There is no believable reason for Twilight to suddenly despise her friends and use them, to turn her back on friendship as a thing, to betray all trust, and to turn into a common thief.

“It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.” - Mark Twain

And this is what I am saying. If you believe that good writing must make sense and be believable to the reader, then we agree, and Twilight's betrayal of herself and her nature was bad writing.

If you think that good writers can just make any character act completely unlike themselves for no reason at all, and that such a thing is just fine, then... we disagree. Also, the entire field of literature disagrees. If you are in school or college, ask an english teacher. If you know a professional writer - besides me, though I am currently out of print - ask them.

But, I don't think there is much to argue about at this point. Of course just arbitrarily destroying the truth of a character is bad writing. On this very site, it is the one thing that will be called out first in any review as an egregious crime.

We should hold professionals to higher standards than what we do on Fimfiction, don't you agree?

Isn't that what MLP is supposed to be about?, learning lessons about friendship?

Sometimes, yes. But there is no believable reason for Twilight to learn any lesson in this case. There was nothing to learn - she supposedly already knows friendship and trust. She is the Princess of Trust. It would be like Celestia suddenly forgetting, for no reason at all, how to raise the sun. Just because. For drama, no reason, just for drama.

And that is bad writing.

Consider this: what if Twilight's Big Plan had not been to use her friends as scapegoats and fools so that she could steal the national treasure of a foreign power. What other story could have been told?

How about this: Twilight actually trusts and values her friends. She knows their strengths, she knows Pinkie is genius at making fun. She actually states that in the movie. What if she simply acted like... Twilight Sparkle. No betrayal, and no stealing. She goes with the others, and genuinely lives up to her title as a princess. She makes friends with the sea-hippogryphs. This teaches THEM the important lesson that there is good in the world. Because of this, they willingly come to Equestria's aid.

A lesson has been learned - by the hyppogryphs - taught by the greatest friendship teachers in the world.

You know what that would have done?

It would have made Twilight's appeals to friendship mean something on Tempest's ship, when Twilight was caged. It would have made all of that make sense. It would have made everything... make sense.

That, would have been good writing. Why? Because Twilight would have remained Twilight, and the real lesson - that friendship and trust is better than selfishness and evil - would have been consistent throughout the movie.

Seriously, wouldn't that have been true to the show, true to the character, and better in every way?

Yes - the question is rhetorical - yes, it would absolutely have been better.

6277140

And this is what I am saying. If you believe that good writing must make sense and be believable to the reader, then we agree, and Twilight's betrayal of herself and her nature was bad writing.

Some people may think that but I sometimes like a curve ball thrown into writing. To me it seems you are treating good writing more like the laws of physics, something that is cut and dried and will never change. Of course good writing is relative and not universal. What I see as good writing may be seen as horrible by you and what you see as good writing may be viewed as too orderly and uninteresting by me. As far as making sense goes,

"What fun is there in making sense?" -- Discord "Return of Harmony, Part 1"

This is something where you and I are likely never going to see eye to eye. To me, good writing is making things interesting and enjoyable....and sometimes things can be enjoyable even if a character is completely OOC....hell sometimes it makes it all the better....Twilight's betrayal is one of them. Would it have been better had Twilight tried to use diplomacy, that depends on the viewer. I personally liked seeing the shit hit the fan and then the forgiveness between Twilight's friends and her.

You said earlier about Twilight never being able to be completely trusted again....this is a work of fiction so that doesn't really apply. That would be 100% up to the writers as to whether she is deemed completely trustworthy again. You are treating this like it were real life, which it is not. Fiction is not as cut and dried as you think it is and good writing does not have to result in something just as orderly as the laws of physics.

6277241

There are good and bad curveballs. Betraying your characters is almost always a bad curveball. To run with the metaphor, it's beaning the batter in the face.

And trustworthiness… just because an author says a character is reliable, doesn't mean that the ensemble of authors writing that character is itself reliable, which is what is required for the character to actually be reliable.

"Goddammit Twilight..."

I found myself saying this at least twice during the movie.

While i think calling it "character assassination" is a bit much, I concur that Twilight's behavior was the result of poor writing. It could have been done better.

Character assassination is something done with the intent of ruining someone's reputation. Twilight's actions, I think, were merely some screenwriters' attempt to create conflict for the sake of plot. "How can we separate Twilight from her friends so the ensemble cast can swoop in with the rest of the Mane 6 and save the day?" There are poor writing elements that crop up more often than they should: Plot Armor, Deus Ex Machina, et cetera ad nauseam. I'll call this one a Plot Wedge (if there is already a term for it, please feel free to correct me).

The Plot Wedge In this case is Twilight's "desperation-driven" attempted theft followed by lashing out at her friends. I agree that there has been nothing in the series that at all presupposes Twilight's actions could be justified, least of all to herself. So the only reason I can see this conflict occurring is to establish the above situation in the story.

Personally, I saw it as an extention of an already existing flaw in Twilight, she has been shown to, if she thinks Equestria is at stake, break into forbidden areas to 'borrow' a spell to stop time, the fact that her sneaking and breaking was not needed, due to the fact she forgot she was allowed, does not negate the fact she had snuck into a forbidden section of the palace, past guards, to use a spell she at the time believed she shouldn't have access to. However, I can see at the same time how it may be different.

6275618
I always considered "Will do whatever it takes to get the job done" a subtle but character flaw/trait of hers, but you make a valid point: It was definitely a bit much here. She should have attempted other solutions to the problem first.

6281478
been thinking about this thread rescently again. And I realised something, part of the plot wedge, was caused by the rest of the mane 6. After the whole Want it need it incident, they agreed NOT to ignore and brush away twilight's worries, even if they think they are unfounded. Throughout the whole movie they pretty much do that.

6530378
YES!
It makes me wonder if the screenwriters for the movie ever watched the show. The Mane 6 have learned different facets of "why don't do this" multiple times through the show.

6530390
Honestly, it looks like they were working off the original lore the season 1 writers were given. It seems to work on their original flaws, more then the fact they overcame them, learned from already.

This movie did kinda suck, but you mentioned emails so I have to talk about those, just in case anyone here isn't up to speed on them.

I'll be quick.

There is a reason why politicians have to use the .gov email address. It's because that server has oversight. When shit goes wrong, the relevant authorities can check through the emails in a centralized location and gather evidence. Hillary's illegal private email server was... well, illegal. She violated the law by owning one while being a politician.

Her first excuse was to claim that she made her own server because it's "More Convenient" that way, which is BS. Trust me, making a private server is a pain in the ass.

What was she using it for? I could say we don't know. I could tell you she could be doing anything with that server, but I don't have to. Because we know what she did with it. We know. Thanks to that pedo idiot Podesta logging into that secure secret email server using a tapped public wifi server (His password for that account was password) we know what this email server was used for.

Here https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/ is something you can use to search through some of Hillary's leaked emails. We don't have all the illegal emails from that server, but we have enough to prove she's a criminal. If she wasn't so politically connected, she'd be rotting in jail where she belongs? If you don't have the time to search that, this http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/ compiles the emails into a "Best hits" sort of thing. A list of the worst 100 things revealed and proven by those leaked emails.

Remember: When the feds came for Hillary's server... Instead of smashing into the place, they gave her 2 weeks notice, and when the 2 weeks were done, she gave them a CD full of emails and said "That's all there is". A week later, they came back and asked for more, she gave them another CD and said "That's all there is", and they bought that and called the investigation off. There's a reason why the feds don't give 2 weeks of warning to drug kingpins and other criminals, but I guess the USA's ruling elite just decided unchecked government corruption is fine when the shadow government is the DNC.

6275618
Twilight is the Princess/Goddess of Friendship. But she's still just a young woman. She going to make mistakes. She's going to look back on her youth, and wonder what she was thinking, how she could have been so stupid. Because everyone does.

Plus Twilight's only a baby Alicorn, a baby Friendship Goddess. She's just a little bigger then a normal Pony at this point. Give her a few centuries to grow up, to become (figuratively and literally) closer in size to Celestia then a normal Pony, before we seriously expect her to be an all-knowing Friendship Princess.

6734505

But she's still just a young woman. She going to make mistakes. She's going to look back on her youth, and wonder what she was thinking, how she could have been so stupid. Because everyone does.

I feel like you didn't actually read what I wrote. Was it too long? Too wordy?

I'll make my point in TL:DR format.

Twilight Sparkle, in that movie, fucks all of her friends over because she wants to commit the crime of thievery against innocent people.

It doesn't matter if she is young. That isn't a 'mistake'. That is absolute betrayal of every possible value within civilization. That is sociopathology.

Twilight is, at the very minimum, supposed to be 'Good'. Not evil. Not a villain. Not a lying, cheating, betraying thief. Even a tiny child can understand such morality.

That is why it is bad writing. The entire scene where she does this criminal betrayal could be cut and it would not change a thing.

THAT is the problem with the movie.

And that should answer you perfectly. But... in case - just in case - that it does not... then...

Do you still disagree?

Really?

If it isn't clear to you that lying, looting and plundering, and betraying your best friends is wrong and evil, and not just a 'mistake', then... fuck. I just can't even... I mean. Fuck. What the hell am I supposed to say that can fix the lack of understanding that? That's a parental-teaching and raising failure, if that is the case. I can't fix that kind of broken.

If you know anything at all about friendship, then the first thing you know is that friendship is trust. And that means honor. And that means no stealing and no lying and no fucking over your friends. That is the first component, the primal essence of what friendship is. Trust. Trust not to be stabbed in the back.

You might want to try reading the blog all the way through again.

6536196
It wasn't illegal, just reckless, and the government concluded no wrongdoing. Ivanka Trump did the very same thing. That hasn't stopped Trump from trumping up false charges against Ms. Clinton, of course. Because Trump is an evil asshole who lies to harm others and get his way.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46271021
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-20/ivanka-trump-s-private-email-scandal-has-a-familiar-moral
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/11/but-her-emails/576298/
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/20/ivanka-trumps-emails-investigate-222642

6734550
I think I understand your point. And yeah, stealing is bad. Betraying you're friends trust, that's bad too. So is lying. I do think there were extreme circumstances, even compared to the other threats Twilight's faced (6275950 kind of made that point with his “to be fair” bit).

But even putting aside the extreme circumstances: When an otherwise ethical young person pulls a stunt like that, the solution is not to brand her a sociopath. The solution is for her parents, peers, and all to give her a good talking too. And to punish her, if need be. But most of all: To make sure she understands that she did wrong!

6734714
Personally, depending on the situation, I would consider taking such a child to the doctor. A sudden change in behavior - such as, basically losing all conscience - in a person who previously had one indicates potential neurological problems. Tumors of the brain, for example. Stroke. Or genetic problems with neurotransmitter uptake. Proper medication might restore function. Sudden personality changes are a very dire warning symptom in anyone.

I would like to add that I did enjoy the movie - my criticism of this issue with Twilight did not mean that I hated the thing. I liked the movie otherwise, and had fun with it.

It's just that I am very offended by bad writing. I am very firm on the concept that all character behavior must stem from what a character knows and believes to be true, and who they are as a person. A sudden, arbitrary change in a character that happens without any process that explains it is just... bad writing. Real people don't just suddenly change who they are... at least unless something inside of their brains or bodies has become deathly wrong with them. Fictional characters must follow that too, or else it destroys the suspension of disbelief that permits immersion in a fictional world.

“Truth is stranger than fiction; fiction has to make sense.” — Leo Rosten

6735509
I suppose I'm thinking of my own experience. I've done stuff before, looked back, and wondered what I was thinking. I've had my share of youthful lapses in judgment! Compared to that, Twilight's lapse in judgment (even with it being ethical judgment) seems rather mild to me.

hm, trying to rething this post and discussion (?) in comments ...

It seems I understand a little bit more why Chatoyance so much wanted 'uncorruptable' (at least by normal means) ponies.. because, well ..having friend who can just disappear when you need him/her ...ooops. Results in something more serious than just 'bad'. So, in real world it was really painful to discover ....friends (humans) usually not up to their ideals.

Also, on 'bad' writing ..I think there was some confusion - technically, writing was not that bad, but some unintended consequences between real and imaginable worlds were ...bad. As far as I understand Chatoaynce wants not just believability and enjoyability of story - but also strong logical links between elements, because in our real reality those links exist ..and ignoring them lead ...to problems. To be honest, as someone who preferred book/text as medium for presenting complex ideas I'm not even sure you can explain everything you want in a movie...

I for example still have no idea how this problem of break-ability should be handled in real-world? Just by saying up front : "i can break, most likely by that kind and duration and amplitude of force(s)'? With some safety coefficient . I think at least some of our politicial and sociological problems rooted into fact human assumed (hoped?) to be unbreakable - while in reality they breaks quite easily. As someone who feels broken by unsuccessfull attempt at changing some not so global aspect of reality - I wonder where are other broken activist end up ..Yes, there are some humans who can remain activists for their whole lives (usually, if they live at relatively high level, where their efforts at least on surface give back _some_ results ...), but what happen to those who both don't want illusions of change instead of real change and not projected into some social sphere where they feel like their activism worth continuing?