Suddenly, it's okay to cancel, censor, and blah blah blah on ordinary Russian people. Not the rich, just the poor and downtrodden just trying to earn a living. Their crime? Being born in the wrong place. I'm not here to talk about the Ukraine is situation. But I'm not sure this kind of thing would help against the deradicalizing Russian people. It may in fact radicalise them further. At the end of the day, they need to put food on the table to feed their families and loved ones.

7654672
As The Oregonian's Facebook page put it:

Don't be an asshole to Russians in your community. The restaurant owner who serves Russian-American fusion food did not invade Ukraine.

7654672 Well, the thing is, we're running out of things we can do to Russia indirectly. We can't face Russia directly because that would mean humanity's extinction, but at the same time, we do want to stop their aggression.

What happens when current sanctions just aren't enough? Do we just watch Russia turn Ukraine into a crater? Or do we try to find every little thing that has the potential to hurt Russia?

And where exactly do you draw the line? Russian sporting competitors have mostly been banned from sporting events. Is that good or bad? They're just trying to feed their families.

You know, after all of the sanctions, Putin won't be eating any poorer food. Sanctions won't hurt Putin. Sanctions will hurt Russians.

That's the best plan we have. We can't oppose Putin, but Russians can. We just need to... motivate them. That's why we're doing all the sanctions.

7654672

Being a dick to ordinary people just because they come from Russia is NEVER OK. But... imposing sanctions on their country that will hit them directly or indirectly is a different story. I assume you're talking about the latter... and, yes, it's a gamble, and it will make ordinary Russians suffer. But... this is NOTHING in comparison to what Ukrainians are going through right now (Poland just accepted the millionth refugee, and the flow is still going strong !)

This HAS TO be discussed in the current situation context. Russians are not getting 'canceled' because of gender pronouns, or because they were mean on Twitter. They're getting hit because their 'great' leader decided to bomb their peaceful neighbor to high heavens and insinuated to use NUKES if anyone tries to interfere ! We're all stomping on dangerous ground here, and if we don't stop it, this thing may blow up into a real WWIII!

The entire free world wants to prevent that, but our 'arsenal' is extremely limited, as Bad Dragon pointed out. Realistically we have two options:

• make Russia bankrupt
• inconvenience ordinary Russians enough, so they hit the streets and start demanding change

Sadly, both will hit ordinary people HARD, but I don't see any viable alternative...

Also, we have to remember that majority of these ordinary people are PARTLY to blame for this . They supported this madman when he bombed Chechnya, attacked Georgia, and annexed Crimea... Even now, most ordinary Russians think Ukraine is just a part of Russia and should be 'reunited !' If you think about it, this really is no different from ordinary Germans supporting the actions of one guy with a funny mustache 80 years ago...

Sorry, but it's time for a painful wake-up call for ordinary Russians. They need to stand up and clean their backyard before it's too late... for all of us .

7655799
Pretty sure Bendy's talking about the performative bullshit that people have been doing for virtue points.

Sanctions will hurt Russia, but there's some real pageantry going on that absolutely will not, such as:

• Liquor stores and bars dumping out Russian vodka. (You already bought the vodka. Russia already got the money.)
• Renaming dishes and drinks so that they're not "Russian" sounding any more.
• Banning Russian pet breeds from animal shows.
• Boycotting local businesses owned by Russian immigrants.

Also, we have to remember that majority of these ordinary people are PARTLY to blame for this

> The majority of Russian civilians are to blame for the actions of the deranged dictator that has usurped and curtailed their democracy.

Kindly go fuck yourself.

7656554

civilians are to blame for the actions of the deranged dictator

The polls say that the majority of Russians support Putin even more than before.

7656558
Oh? The polls?
The polls in Russia?
Controlled by the Russian government?
Say that most Russians are in favor of the Russian government?

How queer. How unexpected.

7656554

Pretty sure Bendy's talking about the performative bullshit that people have been doing for virtue points.

Well, if that's what he means then I find some of these stupid too. However, the idea at the moment is to make the life of ordinary Russians as irritating as humanly possible so they decide to do something about their 'great leader.' And the world doesn't exactly have many options here aside from what we're doing... and WWIII.

The majority of Russian civilians are to blame for the actions of the deranged dictator that has usurped and curtailed their democracy.

When you support your leader in his actions out of your free will (and sadly, the majority of Russians do for various reasons) then yes, you are responsible. The excuse 'I was just afraid to act!' becomes moot the moment it cost the lives of others . If all the Russians hit the streets today, tomorrow that war would be over.

Kindly go fuck yourself.

Tomorrow, I promise !

7656565 You have a point. But can you really be certain that those few people protesting in Russia aren't just a vocal minority?

7656571

However, the idea at the moment is to make the life of ordinary Russians as irritating as humanly possible

Punishing people for the actions of their dictator is unhelpful and also extremely immoral. If your goal is to harm Russian citizens, you are not the good guy.

so they decide to do something about their 'great leader.'

Did you know that within 24 hours of the invasion, massive anti-war protests started up all across Russia?

They involve hundreds of thousands of people, and are still ongoing. They are being brutally suppressed, and thousands of Russian citizens have been arrested.

The goal for which you are so willing to stain your hands was already accomplished over a week ago. Without your input.

the majority of Russians do for various reasons

According to who, exactly?

Because, if you're getting this information from Russian media, which is bankrolled by the government and is not allowed to criticize the administration and its actions, then hoo boy. You're being mislead.

The excuse 'I was just afraid to act!' becomes moot the moment it cost the lives of others.

Strong disagree.

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and criticize others for not acting, when you've never had to face the reality of what they're facing.

Have you ever had to deal with the possibility that you'll be arrested and beaten if you say the wrong things?

If all the Russians hit the streets today, tomorrow that war would be over.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence.

7656572
When have wars of aggression ever been supported by anything close to a majority of a nation's populace?

The people of Russia are intimately aware of the fact that openly opposing their government will come with brutal suppression, and yet hundreds of thousands have shown themselves to be willing to stand up anyway.

How many more do you think are opposed to the invasion, but are too afraid to speak up? Many Russians alive today can personally remember the times when opposing the government would get you disappeared.

Yes, Putin and his administration do have ardent supporters, but I absolutely do not believe that such support comes from the majority of Russians.

7656593

Punishing people for the actions of their dictator is unhelpful and also extremely immoral. If your goal is to harm Russian citizens, you are not the good guy.

The rule of thumb is that every sanction imposed on a country will hurt ordinary people living there much more than the ruling class. There is no way around it. It is not about good vs. evil. It's about stopping the goddamn war before more lives are lost. Let the world know when you find a more 'moral' way to stop a war and get rid of a dictator. You gonna get a Noble Prize. But until then, we have a choice between punishing people with sanctions, trying to make them do something about their dictator. Or... trying to remove him ourselves by force, which in this case means WWIII. Take your pick.

Did you know that within 24 hours of the invasion, massive anti-war protests started up all across Russia?

I know some brave Russians are protesting, and kudos to them. However, as you can see, it's not enough. And if we compare those ~100 000 protesters from Russia to 1 200 000 refugees that crossed the Polish border alone since the invasion, those numbers are not very impressive. I'm very sorry that protests can get you beaten and jailed in Russia. But I think that getting a bomb dropped on your head, and having to run from your country for your lives, is a 'tad' worse .

According to who, exactly?

1. Independent telephone polls such as one quoted here
2. Quotes from people who talk to their Russian friends

In Poland, we have good relations with ordinary Russians. Many people here have Russian friends and talk with them regularly. What they say about Putin, Ukraine, Crimea, Donbas has been consistent for years and not pretty. Granted, most of the sentiment is thanks to Putin's propaganda... but so what? Believing and acting based on propaganda doesn't make you innocent - especially in today's age.

Have you ever had to deal with the possibility that you'll be arrested and beaten if you say the wrong things?

I was born two years before communism in Poland fell, so thankfully no. BUT my parents and their friends had to face that reality. Thanks to the brave souls that sacrifice their health, freedom, and lives, we're living in a free and democratic country right now. If everyone decided they were too afraid to do anything back then, we probably wouldn't be talking.

And now, there is a growing possibility that Mr. Putin decides to cross our border to make Poland a part of the 'great' Russian Empire again. I'm scared shitless even thinking of such a scenario, and I really, Really, REALLY hope it won't come to that. But IF that happens, I have already told my family I'm following the Ukrainian example and grabbing the gun.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence.

You may want to check out the history of how we got rid of communism in Central Europe . See... In every communist country back then, we had laws similar to those in Russia right now (if not harsher), and commies were beating, locking up, and murdering people who dared to oppose them. But once protest passed a certain threshold, there was nothing the regimes could do anymore to suppress it, and it fell apart like a house of cards.

It worked back then; it would work now. Why do you think Putin is pacifying all those protests? He fears the history will repeat itself, and for everyone's sake, let's pray it does.

7657164

The rule of thumb is that every sanction

Removing Russian-made indie films from a film festival isn't a sanction, buddy.

There is no way around it. It is not about good vs. evil. It's about stopping the goddamn war before more lives are lost.

"Boycotting domestic businesses owned by Russian immigrants isn't about good or evil, it's about stopping the war!"

You're so far up your own ass you're starting to choke on your head.

I know some brave Russians are protesting, and kudos to them. However, as you can see, it's not enough.

You: "We need to make Russian citizens suffer so that they protest the invasion!"

Me: "But they are protesting. They've been protesting this whole time."

You: "That's not good enough!"

Galaxy brain. You really think you're helping anyone.

I'm very sorry that protests can get you beaten and jailed in Russia. But I think that getting a bomb dropped on your head, and having to run from your country for your lives, is a 'tad' worse.

Me: "There are massive widespread protests happening all over Russia in spite of the fact that they're being brutally suppressed."

You: "Yeah, but Ukrainians are being killed, so there!"

The mental gymnastics you did to pull this false equivalency were so rapid and acute that I'm genuinely surprised your head is still attached.

Independent telephone polls such as one quoted here

By which you mean, "This one article written by one very biased 'news' company that cites one survey conducted by unnamed 'independent surveyors' in Russia, which had a ridiculously small sample size and still found only the barest of majorities."

Quotes from people who talk to their Russian friends

So your sources are a laughably poorly sourced article and a few anecdotes.

Very convincing.

BUT my parents and their friends had to face that reality.

And I'm sure they'd be so proud of your attempt to usurp their struggles for internet points.

But IF that happens, I have already told my family I'm following the Ukrainian example and grabbing the gun.

It's very easy to talk about what you'd do in a given situation. The reality is much more complicated.

It worked back then; it would work now.

"Protests work, but the protests happening now aren't going to work."

Please donate your body to science when you die. Whatever mental condition you have really needs to be studied.

7657320

So your sources are a laughably poorly sourced article and a few anecdotes.

Right...

• the 'official' Russian sources say most Russians support Putin
• independent Western sources say most Russians support Putin
• people who have Russian friends say most of them support Putin

But of course, everybody must be lying, right? Because it's not possible that most ordinary people in Russia are buying into Putin's propaganda and really think he's defending them from 'evil West!' Surely people wouldn't be fooled to actually support some maniac out of their free will! That never happened before... right ? (*Hitler, Lenin, and Stalin laughing and spinning in their graves *)

... and you the one to talk about 'intoxicating innocence .'

Judging by the ignorance of Russia's history and the way you reject any evidence that goes against your naive preconceptions while providing NONE legitimate counter-evidence of your own, I doubt anything I say will be able to make a dent in your worldview.

I'm done here. Keep believing whatever you want to believe.

7657663

the 'official' Russian sources say most Russians support Putin

The official Russian sources are not allowed to say otherwise.

independent Western sources say most Russians support Putin

Which western sources?

Please show a western source. The only western source you've named so far was A) Already known to be extremely biased, and B) Was itself sourced from a Russian survey.

people who have Russian friends say most of them support Putin

Anecdotes are still not good evidence.

You can tell me you know a guy who knows ten thousand Russians, and they all support Putin. It doesn't fucking mean anything.

But of course, everybody must be lying, right?

It's been known for fucking decades that freedom of the press is non-existent in Russia.

The way Russian media is censored by and directly payed for by the Russian government gives US politicians jealousy boners that can pierce diamond.

Your only sources have been: 1) Russian media outlets. 2) One Western media outlet that cited a Russian media outlet. 3) "Well, this one guy said that he heard this one guy say that most Russians support Putin, so that must be true."

Stop trying to gaslight people. It doesn't matter how many filters the misinformation goes through, it won't make it true.

while providing NONE legitimate counter-evidence of your own

All I've done is reject your claim. I haven't made a counter-point. I don't have any burden to supply evidence.

I doubt anything I say will be able to make a dent in your worldview

My "worldview" of what?

The fact that I don't trust Russian news outlets?

Is that even a worldview?

Let's be real here, nothing Russia has done in Ukraine is worse than Western actions in the middle east for the past 20 years. Not a year ago America airstrike civilians and kids simply to make a show of force after screwing up the Afghanistan withdraw. Personally I can't stand hypocrisy, so I won't give a society build on it an inch.
Fix your own damn issues before throwing rocks at your neighbors.

P.S.
Ukraine is far from innocent, any faction seldom is. If you can blame every Russian for the actions of Putin you must blame every Ukrainian for the actions of the Azov Battalion and Co, so pick your poison.