Obviously, I'm hoping to avoid the M rating because it would really hurt the story to restrict it to only those who have an account with M switched on. Problem is, the line between Teen and Mature seems to be rather subjective. And, Immortal Game recently switched to M for some reason.

So in thinking about this problem, we should talk about the peak horrors that the story depicts. I'm not too worried about any of the battle scenes, as I think those are fairly standard fare among teenagers, and today's youth are more or less used to that kind of violence. What worries me is how people will react to the actions of the infected ponies. This stuff is nightmare fuel, so some might call for the M tag. But honestly when I think of M, I view it as more of an attitude which the story itself has. Does the story glorify the gore relentlessly? Or does the gore simply exist? Again, it's so subjective it's hard to gauge.

For my infected ponies, they are almost precisely like the Reavers of Serenity. Interestingly, this is a PG-13 movie. But those Reavers are pants-wetting terrifying.

Their key traits are:
Organized assault as a group
Complete lack of fear
Complete lack of pain
Absolute aggression
Rape
Cannibalism
Eviscerating the victims and putting the entrails and carcasses on display
Otherwise reveling in the gore and horror, skinning victims alive, etc.

Now, there's ways of getting all of this across to the reader in varying degrees of explicitness. If you look at how I've depicted sex so far in the story, it's far from clop. But it's obvious sex is happening because most of us know what sex is. So our imaginations fill in the gaps. When it comes to things like rape, obviously, I wouldn't get all clop-levels of explicit in the actual deed.

Cannibalism is another where sometimes it's enough to say that the strike team saw a pony eating another pony while they were trying to sneak into town. Naturally, I'd like the freedom to go all-out with this, because the whole point of the memory orb trap is that Nyx is experiencing these horrors as if she herself were one of the infected. And so, to put the reader in Nyx's head would seem to require revealing to the reader in explicit detail exactly what she's experiencing.

And unlike many stories, I think it's sufficient to depict a thing explicitly one or two times and then if it happens again to simply name the deed. That's why we no longer see a description of how Flitter transforms. We already know how it looks, so the story doesn't have to describe it again. Some stories like Immortal Game and Project Horizons seem to think they're getting points for repeating violence. I'm fine with depicting something once or twice.

Regarding the rating then, what I'm inclined to do is to simply wait for a moderator to tell me that the story is mis-rated before changing anything. Then I can tone it back as necessary. That, or maybe we can talk about ideas on how explicit this story needs to be. What are your thoughts?

4948714
Personally, I think you're capable of depicting the more intense scenes in a mature and restrained fashion. You know when and when not to delve into detail, something Project Horizons could certainly have learned from. I liken your style to an artists brush whereas Somber uses a cudgel.

Crucially you let our imaginations fill in the blanks, this is something I feel is missing from movies these days.

So , I'm with you on this one. Best to wait and see what they think of it. It will only stifle your creativity if you're worried about its rating, best to let it flow and let us pick at it

4948866
Sounds like a plan! I'll just write it "naturally" and if it's too graphic, you all can help me tone it down.

4948871 , Well, if anything makes me vomit twice in the same sentence, that's a clear sign.

Heh, you know it occurs to me that it isn't really much more disturbing than anything from The Walking Dead...
I'm amazed that show actually airs on public TV.

To be honest, I'm a little confused as to what is considered "too disturbing" to society these days. The stuff in Walking Dead seems really graphic. Zombies literally eating live people, etc. To me, that is about as disturbing as this story is going to go. Granted things like rape are also very touchy topics and might get people to call for a Mature rating. I suppose it depends on how graphically it's depicted though. Even considering what happened to Fluttershy when the changeling fed on her could be considered a form of rape. It's super difficult to know where people draw the line when it comes to a Mature rating.

4950296
4951848
There's a difference between mature handling of sensitive topics and including content simply to get a reaction from a reader. For example, Fallout: Equestria and Cupcakes are both rated M, and are both considered grimdark. Fo:E gets that rating with an unflinching depiction of a post-apocalyptic setting, while Cupcakes gets it by making Pinkie Pie Hannibal Lecter on Grimdark Steroids.
On a slightly more relevant note, making the infected ponies rapists doesn't seem necessary from a narrative standpoint. Crazed, sadistic, murderous Raider-alikes seem scary enough, unless the rape thing is going to become important later somehow, and it's another thing that might push the story into Hey-This-Should-Probably-Be-Rated-Mature-Anyway-No-Matter-How-The-Subject-Matter-Is-Handled territory. As for changeling force-feeding, while it's a pretty clear rape analogy, it isn't actually rape. As long as you don't draw too many parallels or make it particularly explicit in-text, it shouldn't push the fic into M territory.
Anyway, every piece of content that has toed the line or might potentially toe the line seems to be included to aid in horribly traumatising Nyx:

In scenes like the balefire explosion, for example, I want the reader to know exactly what Nyx is seeing because she has this PTSD from it

Like so. It all comes down to exactly how much Nyx needs to be horribly traumatised for the story to work. If I'm reading the notes and stuff correctly, a bunch of other, fairly unrelated things will mess with her head later, like the trap-thing in the finale, so I'm not sure how necessary the Rapist Zombie Not-Quite-Apocalypse really is. If it isn't critical to the main character arc and might push the fic to the mature rating and thus remove a large portion of the viewership, it might need to be axed, or at least toned down. Given how important the plague is to the current story outline, modifying the behavior of the infected individuals seems like the easiest way of avoiding rating-related strife in the future. IMO

On a slightly more relevant note, making the infected ponies rapists doesn't seem necessary from a narrative standpoint.
...
unless the rape thing is going to become important later somehow

Well, it's the mechanism by which they spread.
http://www.fimfiction.net/group/205196/nightmare-nyx-development/thread/170715/lets-meet-the-infected-ponies

The parasites in question are, as Duvet said, essentially 'nits from hell'. Onlyanorthernsong once called it "sexually transmitted psychopathic rabies" if I recall. The idea being that the parasites hang out down under and await the forthcoming violation, then transfer onto the new host and repeat the process. I have no idea how far I'd go in depicting this or if it would simply be referred to. I guess that's part of the question at hand. I know in the "zebra journal" which I have already put into the story, in the next drafted chapter, Celestia of all ponies, can actually read it fluently. She tells those at the debriefing meeting what it says, and she has to stop reading because it's too horrific. Here's an excerpt from my original draft:

“This is an account of someone surviving his family being killed by… by their friends. The town had been raided by dozens of fellow zebras and many of them were captured and held in their homes for weeks. He was unaware of much going on outside his home, but for some reason they were spared and kept in makeshift cages. His best friend had been visiting at the time, and was molested and locked up with the family.

“His friend was in a separate cage on the other side of the room. He began to go crazy, and after a couple days someone from the zebra raiding party came into the house and let him out, but kept the rest caged. His friend then unlocked the cage with his wife and teenage daughter. Then… Then… I’m sorry this is too horrific.” She slid the paper back to Flitter and wiped a tear. “Death becomes us,” she said finally. “A fitting title.”

Sigh, anyway that was just a draft, so again, it's all up for grabs.

As for changeling force-feeding, while it's a pretty clear rape analogy, it isn't actually rape. As long as you don't draw too many parallels or make it particularly explicit in-text, it shouldn't push the fic into M territory.

Regarding that, I'd say that while there is nothing at all depicted with this, the effects on the victim are pretty much the same. And since this is poor Fluttershy... everyone will have a whole lot of sympathy for what happened. Strangely, this developed initially from my depiction that Flutters was just "scared of changelings" and that this was the reason for her reaction to Flitter. But that was super weak, so the idea of the "alternate type of feeding' was born because the changelings were in a famine and dying anyway, so it made perfect sense that she would approach a starving changeling with sympathy herself, and then get taken advantage of.

If I'm reading the notes and stuff correctly, a bunch of other, fairly unrelated things will mess with her head later, like the trap-thing in the finale, so I'm not sure how necessary the Rapist Zombie Not-Quite-Apocalypse really is

Right. What's important is that the memory orb trap is made from the memories of infected ponies. So the reader needs to understand what these memories consist of before they can really appreciate what it would do to Nyx to have to experience those for about four hours.

modifying the behavior of the infected individuals seems like the easiest way of avoiding rating-related strife

I guess it depends, again, on how explicit it is. Most older teens can handle the concepts implied here, I think. Especially if it doesn't drag them through the explicit showing of it. Some of the more sensitive parts like the rape can simply be told rather than shown. It's all going to depend on what parts are shown. You can get pretty gruesome in describing certain acts. And creative wording can get the same point across in a more palatable way.

Going back to Immortal Game (which was Teen rated for years until like last month for some reason) there are scenes in there which I was actually disturbed by. When the story describes what happens to Celestia, it made me very uncomfortable. She was genuinely brutalized, but a lot of it wasn't even described. It might be worth having a chat with one of the site mods about to see what they think.

4952217

Well, I've asked in the writers group about this, and after quite an interesting discussion, Meeester showed up and said that it comes down to "gratuitous" violence.

This means when the violence is uncalled for, unwarranted, or otherwise without justification, it is gratuitous and would likely call for the M rating.

So when we look at the differences between Cupcakes and my story, we can see how the context changes the necessary rating. If we have Pinkie Pie suddenly go all Hannibal Lecter times ten, for no reason, it is jarring and the violence exists for its own sake. By contrast, in my story, the violence is definitely for a very good reason, and is an important plot element where you'd actually expect the violence in the context given. So there's no shock or surprise really when the reader sees the violence. It's shocking in the sense that our characters are shocked... but the reader understands the nature of this universe (hopefully), and is going to be mentally braced for that kind of thing.

Also, I do lead up to it, which means the reader does have a choice to set the story aside if it's starting to get too intense. The prologue sets a bar the existence of violence with the assassination attack and Nyx's accidental gibbing of two dozen zebras. It's not explicit, but in reading the prologue, a "sensitive" reader will probably be able to use that to judge whether they should continue.

Oh, also when I did initially publish the story, chapter one did have Nyx burning zebras alive, with them writhing around in pain for half a minute before dying and then continuing to burn. And the story approver didn't call for the M rating. Littlehorn was also approved as-is, with a Teen rating.

I shall therefore maintain the Teen rating unless told otherwise. I'll draft the gore scenes with full gore first, and then you all can help me tone it down to the appropriate level.

4953630

So when we look at the differences between Cupcakes and my story, we can see how the context changes the necessary rating. If we have Pinkie Pie suddenly go all Hannibal Lecter times ten, for no reason, it is jarring and the violence exists for its own sake.

The thing about Cupcakes that a lot of people don't seem to get is that it was written intentionally to unsettle or disgust the reader. While no in-universe reason was given for Pinkie's sadism - which is the main flaw of that fic, setting aside very legitimate complaints about the content - the out-of-universe reasoning is pretty clear, given the author's intent. Sergeant Sprinkles isn't saying "look at all the super-hot torture-porn! Violence is fantastic, you guys!", he's saying "Oh, hey, you thought that this would be a cute fic about Dash and Pinkie baking cupcakes? MOOD WHIPLASH!"
Of course, the M rating and the fic's reputation often mean that the author's intent gets muddled.
Oh, and Cupcakes is rated M because it has explicit descriptions of forced cannibalism, torture, mutilation and other really, really nasty stuff. I don't think the context has much to do with it.

but the reader understands the nature of this universe (hopefully), and is going to be mentally braced for that kind of thing.

The prologue does establish that NN will take more after Fo:E than Past Sins in terms of mood and content. It's good that you got that out of the way early. I'm still not sure if the Rape Zombies are 100 percent necessary - memories of butchering civilians would mess Nyx up plenty on their own, and it really pushes the boundaries of good taste - but it's still ultimately your decision.

Oh, also when I did initially publish the story, chapter one did have Nyx burning zebras alive, with them writhing around in pain for half a minute before dying and then continuing to burn. And the story approver didn't call for the M rating. Littlehorn was also approved as-is, with a Teen rating.

Bleh. Fimfic's rating system is a little borked. You might be able to just sneak past the M rating by glossing over stuff.

4959063

Yeah, the tricky part here is that while the tone of my story is closer to Fo:E, the fact remains that this is the conclusion of Nyx's character arc, and has been pretty much endorsed by Pen Stroke himself. So clearly, one part of my target audience is the entire Past Sins fandom, which of course, will include quite a few people who don't have any clue about Fo:E's tone. It's tricky because while I'm writing about Nyx as an adult, it is a much more "adult" story despite not desiring to be restricted to only adults. I believe many teens would not only be able to handle the level of gore presented, but would truly enjoy this story.

So, again, I'm going to just have to use the subjective nature of this whole thing and say that "my violence is not gratuitous". The violence has a very important in-story purpose. And the depictions will be handled carefully. I'll have to pick and choose which things to depict explicitly and which parts to leave to reader imagination.

Regarding the graphic depictions of explicit violence, I think the chapter where a good portion of this will come through is the upcoming Chapter 13 - Tales of Horror. Much of this will be told by account rather than direct showing. Mint Blossom's sister Jewel will be rescued from Withersberg and brought back to Gatorton where she will reveal what's been going on in the town for the past several days while our heroes were away in Canterlot. This is probably the most explicit the story will need to get when talking about what the infected ponies do.

There's also the scene while on the way to rescue Jewel where our heroes encounter an infected pony on the path who is busy eating another pony. This one scene sets the bar for the horror, really. How the infected pony reacts to the presence of the rescue team as well as how Nyx herself reacts will say a whole lot. What's worse, is that I plan on having the victim still be (barely) alive. Yeah, that would definitely be as bad as it gets. Y'all will have to help me shape this scene for maximum impact without being gratuitous.

It would seem that the updated tag rules are significantly more strict than before. If they are to be taken literally, I don't see any way that my story could be written to avoid the Mature tag. No war story, in fact, could probably be anything other than Mature, because they've defined it to be any sort of explicit violence. Bam, Mature.

Still... I'm not going to change my story's rating until a site mod tells me to do so. I think it's ridiculous in the current system with the mature filter and all. If they're not going to make a separate filter for clop, then people will automatically assume M means clop and avoid stories they'd probably enjoy.

Also, I added the Drama tag.

This type of story focuses on the realistic, emotional reactions of characters involved in some serious life-affecting problem. It explores the various characters’ conflicting feelings between each other and within themselves.

I think this qualifies.

5044762

No war story, in fact, could probably be anything other than Mature, because they've defined it to be any sort of explicit violence. Bam, Mature.

What
That's...I don't even.
The flipping show would be rated mature, in that case.

Surely there's more leeway than what you're implying. Knighty and Xaquseg aren't that dumb.

5044762

Surely there's more leeway than what you're implying.

After having looked at the updates and stuff for myself, it looks to be about as subjective as ever. Am I missing something?

5044981

Unlike teen and everyone, mature stories can include detailed descriptions of sex and/or violence

Also...

Teen is likely best defined by what is not allowed: description of sexual acts, highly charged sexual situations, and detailed description of violence or injuries.

Detailed descriptions of violence or injuries?? Yeah well that is unavoidable in a story like mine. The violence has detailed descriptions. The injuries have detailed descriptions. Any battle scene. Even the zebras getting killed in chapter one, had "detailed descriptions".

Suddenly, flesh separated from bone and was smeared across the grass in a crimson paste as the shrapnel and pressure wave from the grenade tore his body to ribbons.

They began to scream, then burst into violent flames.
After a long moment, they fell to the ground and writhed around for over half a minute before lying still, continuing to burn.

Nevermind the balefire explosion or the depiction of the butchered zebra camp.

The thing is, the reader isn't deluged with this stuff... The story is not saturated with violence. It's just punctuated here and there with it. By no means is this an overwhelming thing for a 'teen' reader to take in on occasion.

5045230

Unlike teen and everyone, mature stories can include detailed descriptions of sex and/or violence

'Detailed' is the key word there, and it could mean anything from one-sentence high-impact descriptions like you have there to paragraph-long descriptions of Chrysalis ripping Fluttershy's organs out. I would have put a specific maximum amount of gore, violence or sexual content that could be described in explicit detail while still remaining teen-rated, which would have solved this whole problem on the spot.
Then again, I'm not the Almighty Site Administrator, O Hear His Unpronounceable Name And Tremble, so what do I know?

Oh, and Xaquseg said that this was merely more clearly stating already-existing rules rather than changing anything, so I'd chalk this whole thing up to poor phrasing.

5045385

merely more clearly stating
...
poor phrasing

Yeah... very helpful.

This is why I won't change the rating unless a site mod explicitly tells me to. Due to the subjective nature of it all, there's no way to tell whether my story in particular crosses "the line". I do suspect that at some point down the road, my story will be forced in to the M category. I just hope it happens after it's fully published, and after there's separate filters for M-sex and M-gore. Personally, I think teens can handle my story just fine, so I don't feel bad about claiming the T rating. And I'm a very conservative person who believes in protecting the young from inappropriate things. I do suspect that fimfiction is being forced into this by external pressure, though. When I suggested that M be enabled by default and let people switch it off, he said that no, that's not gonna happen, for reasons he wasn't gonna get into.

The main thing I don't want to happen with my story is for it to be taken out of view of the general public, thus requiring a fimfiction account and the decision to turn off the M filter. I think that would hurt the story's exposure by quite a bit. But if I've already published, then the fan base can build up first and if I have to put it to M afterward, those people will already know about the story.

There's also other annoyances such as the site rule which says that you cannot make a direct link to any M rated story in a forum. That one would piss me off quite a bit not being able to link to my while in a discussion.

The whole thing is just stupid. People can police themselves whether a story is beyond what they are comfortable reading. It doesn't take much reading through my story to see that it does not bludgeon the reader over the head with evisceration constantly. Yeah, there's moments where I heavily insinuate horrific things. Like Celestia reading the journal. It's an emotional gut punch which is meant to get over quickly. Most teens can handle that kind of thing, last time I checked.

5045446

When I suggested that M be enabled by default

Dude, under-tens use this site, and most users don't have accounts. Do you really want one of them to stumble across 120 Days of Blueblood? Have you seen some of the stuff that pops up in the freaking feature box, like the one that's there right now about Twily getting gangbanged by a bunch of guards? I'm sure that would go over wonderfully once little Lizzy asks her mommy why Princess Twilight is dreaming about having a bunch of nasty boys stick their boy-thingies in her. ()
Not to mention the new stories and most recently updated columns on the front page are stuffed with horrible shit when Mature is turned on. Well, more horrible shit than they otherwise would be.
If the world was a significantly better place then children too young or immature to see that kind of thing wouldn't have access to Fimfic (or almost any other part of the web) without responsible parental supervision and the appropriate management. Unfortunately for impressionable children and/or Orwellian perfectionists such as myself, the real world is full of clueless or just plain irresponsible legal guardians.
Anyway, yeah, the system could use an overhaul. That's unlikely to happen, though - the current one works fine for the management and is generally functional, if not always logical.

People can police themselves whether a story is beyond what they are comfortable reading

Yes. Yes.
The two big problems with that are the children too young to manage themselves on the internet but who have access to it anyway, and the advertisers who might be ticked off by their ads being displayed above an easily-visible furry smut fic. Those are the two I can think of, anyway.

5045502

Do you really want one of them to stumble across

Well, when it comes to clop it's a bit different than other mature stuff. Clop, specifically, is some pretty nasty stuff. There's a huge difference between realistic/respectful and ridiculous/insane. When you consider the disgusting activities in most clop, it's easy to see why children shouldn't even know such things are thought of. But the point I was making is in the medium. With movies, children can stumble upon a sex scene quite by accident. But it takes some actual reading skill to open up a text-only story and read through it. Especially for longer stories like mine, by the time it gets really serious and disturbing, you've had plenty of warning that this is coming. It takes reading skill, time, and effort to actually read a mature story. Even with my 8yo, there's no way she can even open up Past Sins and get very far without getting stuck on words she doesn't know within the first or second paragraph. So literature is way, way different than video in this respect.

Also in regards to mature/gore, there's an enormous difference based on the theme of the story. Compare Saw with Saving Private Ryan. Saw is like Cupcakes. Right? Saving Private Ryan is like my story. Both are rated R because of violence and gore. But the effect each one has on the viewer is very different. One is meant to gross out, and is probably inappropriate. The other is meant to portray things that are a part of real life. A very awful part of real life, mind you, but real nonetheless. And that's the kind of story I tell because I think people need stories like this in today's sugar-coated world where most of us have forgotten the harsh realities we are generally protected from in our cushy Western culture. These are lessons few are teaching, that are taught well via stories of adventure and heroism. And I strongly think that teens would benefit from them.

Not to mention the new stories and most recently updated columns on the front page are stuffed with horrible shit when Mature is turned on.

This makes my argument quite nicely, thank you. The fact that this annoyance exists demonstrates why people turn the M filter on. Because the clop is so pervasive on this site, people are filtering it out. And thus, stories like mine (if it were M) would also get filtered out. Hence why I want to retain the T rating.

children too young to manage themselves

So yeah... my argument is that such children are too young to even be capable of reading a story like mine. I highly doubt anyone so young as my story would be inappropriate would even be able to physically get through the text anyway. So the story is really self-regulating. No censorship necessary.

5045519

Especially for longer stories like mine, by the time it gets really serious and disturbing, you've had plenty of warning that this is coming. It takes reading skill, time, and effort to actually read a mature story. Even with my 8yo, there's no way she can even open up Past Sins and get very far without getting stuck on words she doesn't know within the first or second paragraph. So literature is way, way different than video in this respect.

Eh, I suppose that's true. However, the average clopfic is hardly very complex, and I was chewing through and understanding novels that were around as difficult as Past Sins when I was ten or so.
I'm not sure why I'm arguing this particular point so much though, given that...stuff like this is just lying around on youtube, with no age restriction at all.

my argument is that such children are too young to even be capable of reading a story like mine

Nightmare Nyx is far more difficult to comprehend than 90% of M-rated fics. Clop is not complex at all. Likewise with gore. Even so, my ten-year-old self would have made fairly short work of your story over the course of a week or so, and I sure wouldn't show any M-rated fic to him. The little brat was screwed up enough already.

5045549
Hmm. Well then maybe it's just my personal bias since I'm more exposed to my own story than anyone else's and I consider my own story "safe" because I'd assume anyone capable of reading it should be okay reading it.

Honestly though, I know lots and lots of adults who would probably be disturbed by it. At this point, it's not even really about age, is it?

Well, hopefully the site admins will let me keep the T rating. I'll just wait and see.

4948714

One of the problems with the Mature tag is that a lot of the best readers don't want to read Mature stories, and a lot of the ones who DO wind up reading a Mature-tagged story expect mindless sex and violence, just because. I think that An Equestrian Gentlemare ... is unpopular for this reason, and I suspect the same of "His Recipe For Love." Neither are just there for sex and violence.

5045766
Oy! I completely forgot you were in this group. Hey there. Thanks for chiming in. Do you actually lurk here?

Also... well said!
That is a problem, and I wish the admins would address it.
Fact is... my story is a story for more "mature" readers. But it's the existing story demographics within the Mature rating which create an inaccurate picture of what my story might be like if I were to use the M tag.

4948714 Great this whole conversation is driving me bonkers on whether to return my Fo:E story to T like it originally was or it leave it at M... in all honesty about all of this, I'd say leave it at T for awhile... I've read a T story that has the detail level this story has and it hasn't changed from T to M at all to my surprise, heck it even has a few swears out of the bat for it...

5045737

I'd assume anyone capable of reading it should be okay reading it

No offence, but that's pretty flawed reasoning. As I already 'explained' with an anecdote, children can have reading skills far ahead of their maturity level, and even the goriest of content isn't especially hard to understand. Not to mention that there's any number of intelligent, mature individuals with poor reading comprehension, or simply have english as a second language.

Honestly though, I know lots and lots of adults who would probably be disturbed by it.

That's true, but those adults can generally be trusted to manage themselves, as you said.

At this point, it's not even really about age, is it?

Well, hopefully the site admins will let me keep the T rating. I'll just wait and see.

Going Mature would cripple your long-term readership, barring a major shakeup of the current system. If they don't let you keep the rating as-is, then you'll probably need to do some panic-editing to fix things. The exception would be if you had to edit out literally all the violence.
As I've said previously, if the M rating ends up as an inevitability, then extra care will have to be taken to avoid the sex tag. If a story is M-rated but lacks the sex tag then even the lowest common denominator can generally figure out that it's not a clopfic. 'Generally' being the key word there.
5045766
Ex-actly! The mature rating carries certain assumptions, and most of them are usually unhealthy for a 'serious' story that isn't mindless clop or gore.
5046567

That is a problem, and I wish the admins would address it.

Hopefully the creation of separate ratings for erotic and gorey fics will address it.
5046626
O...kay? Good, I suppose. Would you mind expanding on what exactly make that story a tossup between mature and teen? We could use some more examples to analyse.

5046649

The exception would be if you had to edit out literally all the violence.

Which isn't really an option, probably, eh? I mean, you have a pretty solid understanding of this story. Do you think it could be told without detailed violence? Would I have to make a "director's cut" version as well, which has the text that I'd prefer it had?

No offence, but that's pretty flawed reasoning. As I already 'explained' with an anecdote, children can have reading skills far ahead of their maturity level, and even the goriest of content isn't especially hard to understand.

Fair enough. Though that means there's a seemingly contradictory problem with the rating system. If they have to protect certain readers from certain content, how does one protect their story from being unfairly rated?

if the M rating ends up as an inevitability, then extra care will have to be taken to avoid the sex tag

That won't be a problem because the site rules already say that if your story is rated M, you can have "T sex" without the need of a sex tag.

even the lowest common denominator can generally figure out that it's not a clopfic

While that may be true, it's still an issue if the story can't be seen by default accounts. I wager many, many people sign up on fimfiction who are not even aware that such filters exist simply because they haven't paid attention. So if the filter is turned on by default, then it may very well remain on for people who would be okay with the mature content.

We could use some more examples to analyse

The best example is probably Immortal Game, which was rated Teen for years until just a couple months ago when the author switched it to M.

5046649 Most of the stuff involved pretty much what Recon is struggling with, the level of detail with violence and what-not so we can ignore that. But hmm, example of stories that are struggling with what we are dealing and yet still managed to stay T... Well there is this one story I have mentioned about that goes through what we're trying to deal with, finished it I believe around March... Here let me link it for you...

It's called The Secret Life of Rarity

It's a good book. Now let's get back into topic, this book handles what we're dealing with and surprisingly hasn't changed it's T rating at all despite what lays ahead when I was reading it. The details of the executions performed by Rarity are rather... um... I can't seem to find a good word for those executions... I guess quick and detailed is my only words I could think of? Anyway, the details of them are rather interesting... I can't seem to say anything else about them other than a bit surprising that this story managed to stay T because of the level of detail put into the executions... Then again, it does cut off when it knows it's going to be too serious in the gore department...

5046729 Wow I never got the chance to read the Immortal Game and it stayed T for years? Now I'm wondering if the I just linked to Questionable is another statistic

5046757
Since you're a fast reader, I recommend you go read it now. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the story anyway. But yes, Immortal Game most certainly was rated Teen until sometime in late 2015. The story is 300k words long, and was published between July 2012 and January 2013. So that's a good long time to be sitting there with a Teen rating. Looking at its Stats, it has had a VERY steady upvote curve. Curiously, this curve does not seem to have slowed down at any point recently due to the rating change.

A further curiosity is the effects of publishing the final chapter. You can see a massive spike of upvotes at that point. I wager this represents people who do not read incomplete stories suddenly flooding in.

5046729

Do you think it could be told without detailed violence?

Not how you currently have it planned unless you skip over a whole lot of stuff, which would weaken the whole thing considerably. You could tone it down, though, so if an admin does happen by and tells you to change the rating, some respectful negotiation and quick editing should save it. That might weaken the impact of certain scenes somewhat, but there you go. Better than losing three-quarters of your potential readership.

Would I have to make a "director's cut" version as well, which has the text that I'd prefer it had?

Only if editing the story to fit a teen rating removes a large amount of content.

how does one protect their story from being unfairly rated?

What do mean by 'unfairly' rated? If I understand the story submission process correctly, the author sets the rating. If the story approvers don't agree, then...something happens, idunno. It's rejected with an instruction to change the rating, presumably. That's hardly unfair.

That won't be a problem because the site rules already say that if your story is rated M, you can have "T sex" without the need of a sex tag.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that.

While that may be true, it's still an issue

That wasn't the issue I was talking about there. The problem I was predicting is the less intelligent subspecies of cloppers showing up, going "Hey, where's the porn?" and then downvoting on reflex. That site rule you talked about fixes that nicely anyway.

The best example is probably Immortal Game, which was rated Teen for years until just a couple months ago when the author switched it to M.

Do you know why? I haven't read it myself.
5046750

I guess quick and detailed is my only words I could think of

Saying a lot with a little, or letting the reader's imagination fill in the blanks. They're both literary techniques, although the first one is more of a skill.
As for the fic you linked...isn't that the one where serial killing is like an addiction? I read the TVTropes page for it a while back, and it sounded...odd.

5046792 In a bit of a way, yes...

5046781 This is probably the second time someone suggested me to read it... but okay then...

5046792

What do mean by 'unfairly' rated? If I understand the story submission process correctly, the author sets the rating. If the story approvers don't agree, then...something happens, idunno. It's rejected with an instruction to change the rating, presumably. That's hardly unfair.

Two things: First, the process you described is only for the first published chapter. Presumably, if further chapters show up with content the admins deem inappropriate for the rating, they will either demand the author change the story's rating or just change it themselves. In my Littlehorn story, an admin added the "crossover" tag himself without asking me first. I was fine with that of course, since I had forgotten to put it in myself.

Second, what I mean by "unfairly" is that the story is placed in a category where the average person will judge it as having certain content or theme/tone which it does not, in fact, have. If all rated R movies were like Saw (or Showgirls), and someone made a movie like Saving Private Ryan which then got rated R, would not the public assume (without looking) that this was yet another movie like Saw?

Huh. I wasn't aware of that.

Sex
The sex tag, when used with the mature rating, is used as a warning that the story contains detailed descriptions of sexual acts. teen-level sexual acts are generally fine in Mature without this tag, however.

Yeah, at least there's that.

That wasn't the issue I was talking about there. The problem I was predicting is the less intelligent subspecies of cloppers showing up, going "Hey, where's the porn?" and then downvoting on reflex.

Yikes!
I hadn't even considered that particular angle.

Do you know why? I haven't read it myself.

Sadly, no. I haven't been able to get in touch with the author. I did PM him once or twice as a friendly hello, but he didn't reply. And there have been discussions in his comments section about the rating change, but he doesn't chime in.

5045446
Addressing something I missed before.

That one would piss me off quite a bit not being able to link to my while in a discussion.

You couldn't link to it directly, sure, but there's nothing stopping you from linking the public group or your account's stories page.

5046825
Bahaha! That's epic!

So... if you link an M story and someone who has the M filter turned on clicks on it, what happens? Why is this even a rule? Wouldn't the link fail for those people?

5046819

Second, what I mean by "unfairly" is that the story is placed in a category where the average person will judge it as having certain content or theme/tone which it does not, in fact, have. If all rated R movies were like Saw, and someone made a movie like Saving Private Ryan which then got rated R, would not the public assume (without looking) that this was yet another movie like Saw?

That's more the audience being unfair that the system. Blame crappy authors saturating everything with garbage.
Still, I see your point. It boils down to another reason to avoid the M tag like the plague.

Yikes!
I hadn't even considered that particular angle.

Yeah, it's not a nice scenario. Especially since Nyx is mostly known as a cute little filly...
Thankfully, that little rule you mentioned should take care of that problem nicely, no matter what rating the story ends up having.

Sadly, no. I haven't been able to get in touch with the author. I did PM him once or twice as a friendly hello, but he didn't reply. And there have been discussions in his comments section about the rating change, but he doesn't chime in.

Huh. Why do you think he changed it? There's a lot of gore, from what little I've read, so maybe an admin stopped by and told him to change it?
5046964

So... if you link an M story and someone who has the M filter turned on clicks on it, what happens? Why is this even a rule? Wouldn't the link fail for those people?

Nope. It comes up with a screen that asks you to confirm that you want to view mature content. For people without accounts, it's the only way to turn mature on (I think). That's so that if someone without an account accesses a M-rated story - say, some curious non-brony clicks a link to Fallout: Equestria to see what all the fuss is about - they can still view the story without making an account and turning the filter off.
Links to mature fics in public forums could lead to young children accidentally turning the in-place-by-default mature filter off, which is why that rule exists.

5046989

There's a lot of gore, from what little I've read, so maybe an admin stopped by and told him to change it?

I'd say that this is the most likely scenario, yes. There's no mention of it whatsoever from what I can tell. AestheticB hasn't even made a blog post since 2013. Hell, maybe an admin himself changed the rating. They can do that.

So I have to consider the possibility that at some point in the future my story might get the M tag. Unless, as you suggested, I do some quick editing to save it. And that's fine, I suppose. If they'd be willing to strike up a dialogue here in this dev forum with us, maybe we can come to a reasonable arrangement as far as how much needs to be edited.

Nope. It comes up with a screen that asks you to confirm that you want to view mature content.

Sigh. I just tried it in another browser, not signed in. It's worse than that! It says "adult content". That's a term almost universally recognized as porn!!

Links to mature fics in public forums could lead to young children accidentally turning the in-place-by-default mature filter off, which is why that rule exists.

Accidentally, my ass. Who actually believes a button is going to do anything to keep a child from reading a Mature rated story? The whole idea of a button is an insult to humanity's collective intelligence. Really.

"Halt! We are blocking your. Do you wish to proceed?"
"Yep"
"Okay"

5047043 I agree with you on the button part for a mature filter... can we have something a bit more advanced then that?

5047056
No. It serves exactly one purpose. To cover their asses legally.

They don't actually care about protecting people from inappropriate material. Are you kidding? This is a site where foalcon is a popular genre. The purpose of the button is to force people to pass through a legal gateway which puts responsibility onto the viewer rather than the site. You clicked that you are of legal age. Therefore it's not our problem.

5047085 Okay you have a good point there... but I really wish we have something better than just pressing a simple button for the mature filter you know what I mean?

5047093
Personally, I am anti-censorship. I think children need to be properly parented rather than relying on external mechanisms to decide what content they can or cannot have access to. If someone raises a child well, they will be just fine.

5047102 True enough, at least I try to not let my little cousins read any books that may seem suspicious without me watching them Those little, energetic kids, oh how I love them

5047043

Sigh. I just tried it in another browser, not signed in. It's worse than that! It says "adult content". That's a term almost universally recognized as porn!!

To be fair, it's pretty difficult to stumble across a mature fic by accident with the mature filter turned on. Plus, well, most M fics are porn.

The purpose of the button is to force people to pass through a legal gateway which puts responsibility onto the viewer rather than the site

That's totally fair. Who wants to get sued?
The other M-filter mechanisms are pretty effective anyway.
Besides, it's not like you need explicit gore or erotica to be creepy as Tartarus.
Now I'm not sure what I'm saying. Help, Aegis Shield broke me with creepiness.
5047093

Okay you have a good point there... but I really wish we have something better than just pressing a simple button for the mature filter you know what I mean?

Dude, that already exists. Mature fics won't show up anywhere unless you turn the filter off, and to turn the filter off you need to find a mature fic. See? You'd have to deliberately search out an offsite link to a mature fic, excepting rulebreakers who post links on-site.
5047102

I am anti-censorship

Is there such a thing as pro-censorship, outside of nutcases?
I don't think that putting an age restriction on erotica and extreme gore counts as censorship. More like keeping the pornography in a separate section of the library that kids have a hard time accessing.

I think children need to be properly parented rather than relying on external mechanisms to decide what content they can or cannot have access to. If someone raises a child well, they will be just fine.

Very much agreed. It's worth keeping in mind that there are a lot of bad parents, though.

5047198
Ugh. Fair arguments - it's just shit that my story is at-risk of losing a significant portion of its target audience due to this messed up system.

5047198 Er... okay then, my mind is not clearly thinking about this right now... besides this is a topic I can't seem to handle well so why am I even arguing about mature filters?

I think this entire thread is worth revisiting now that it's been over a year since we've discussed it, and we're finally getting to the point where "explicit gore" is about to show up in a published chapter.

Chapter seven, Blood and Fire, is due to be published as soon as it's ready. Preferably in 2-3 weeks. I need to do my rewrite of the final two scenes and then it'll be ready. But the bar has already been set for this chapter in the parts I've written already. If you go to the chapter seven link, you can see how things are coming and what kind of violence we're talking about. Naturally, the actual battle will contain additional violence. But we should really discuss this one more time after the rewrite is finished, just before we actually publish.