Without naming names, I have been made aware of a situation developing between two authors here - and yes, I mean here, the Quorum - and can't for the life of me find where this argument is situation is developing/has already developed. It's all well and good if you guys try and work things out between each other via PMs, but that sorta leaves me in the dark and thinking that everything is going along okay and enjoying finally sitting down to actually watch Deep Space 9 when all of a sudden I'm blindsided by a PM proclaiming doom and gloom.

So. Can we please try and hash things out here where I can be involved, maybe?

...

...it's Grass and Emeral, by the way, let's start by making that clear. So I'm naming names after all.

Okay, well, it would appear that none of you are online at the moment. Great. So I get to sit around wondering what the Hell specific incident prompted the PM I received for God knows how long.

This is not how I was hoping to spend my stay-home vacation from work. Fortunately I've still got the better part of a week left so, hopefully, this can be resolved quickly. But probably not. But I can hope.

I'm online. Had to go home early for...reasons.

This situation has been simmering for a long, long time. Emeral and G&C2 have disagreed about the direction of the Lunaverse since almost the beginning. I have no idea what the latest trigger was, but I've known Emeral was feeling extremely frustrated and voiceless in the situation, especially as G&C2 keeps churning out stories and has such an active and, frankly, defensive fanbase.

I won't say any more until more has come out, other than to say that I am really, really sorry I let things get this bad.

I'd like to be watching Deep Space 9 right now, but I want to be here the moment other people start to show up.

Just finished "Our Man Bashir," if you're curious. That was a good one. Gene Roddenberry would have hated it, but then Gene Roddenberry would have hated Deep Space 9 because humans are mean to each other sometimes and Roddenberry didn't go for that. Then again this is the same guy who gave us some truly awful TNG episodes. Like "Code of Honor." Roddenberry created a fantastic series but that doesn't necessarily mean that he was the best thing for that series. He's kind of like George Lucas in that respect.

Hmm. Wonder if I'm the same vis-a-vis the Lunaverse. I'm talking to myself about Trek to cheer me up/calm me down, incidentally. Also to waste time while waiting for people to show up.

I watched Star Trek: Generations yesterday, and Star Trek: The Motion Picutre. I maintain that if The Slow Motion Picture had been compressed a bit - cutting out some of the extraneous slow scenes showing off V'ger - and been split into two parts, it would have made a fine TV pilot. That's what it was originally supposed to be - the pilot episode for Star Trek: Phase II, the sequel series that never materialized. Turned into a movie instead. It's not bad, it's just slow. But it's definitely very Trek in feel and, well, I enjoy it in many places despite its failings. In particular the music. I haven't been able to get the Klingon battle theme out of my head.

Generations...I understand why it's considered one of the "bad" movies, but I'd rank it as the second-best of the bad movies, very enjoyable in many places. Certainly I remember when I saw it in theaters I had no problems with it. These days I'm a bit depressed how how Kirk was ultimately killed, but I can deal with it. The themes of death and time were well-conveyed, at least. I liked Soren as a villain, I like that we finally did away with those Klingon sisters. And, of course, the start of the movie with the launch of Enterprise B is great. Kirk's death there was perfect. Basically Generations needed a stronger final act, and it would have been just fine.

Kind of want to write up a short story about that dropped teddy bear and it ending up returning to the little girl who dropped it through innumerable contrived circumstances, as are wont to happen in Star Trek.

4112937
Ah. Well, then, let us waste time talking about Star Trek, but not Abrams-Trek or Enterprise since that's divisive between us (though you might be glad to hear my opinion of Into Darkness has dropped the more I think about it, though I hold that the opening on Planet Nibiru was great)

What's your favorite of the movies? Mine is Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, AKA Star Trek VI: The One With the Klingon that Quotes Shakespeare.

4112914
I'm sorry. I was feeling in a really bad way, and needed to get out of the house. Went out to dinner with my family to get some comfort food. Probablly shouldn't have left you hanging, like that.

I'll answer in full as soon as I'm home at my computer, instead of pecking away at my ccellphone

4112937
Please, this isn't your fault.

4112979

To watch, Star Trek IV. It's one of the few times Trek did comedy well, and while it's overbearing on the "SAVE THE WHALES!" stuff, it's an enjoyable, fun adventure. It's the perfect movie to put on when you're feeling down.

In terms of quality, it's a close match between II and VI. II is obviously the more acclaimed film, turned a one-episode villain into a thing of magnificence, and explored the characters deeper than nearly every other piece of Trek media. VI manages to mirror the crumbling of the Soviet Union and end of the Cold War the Klingons were built upon (it was admittedly a fluke, but the writing was on the wall by that point), and in so doing serves as a still-relevant commentary on how we should not let fear and hate ruin the opportunity to have peace.

4113026
VI is my favorite, but I will acknowledge that II is probably the superior movie.

I'll admit to having a soft spot for The Final Frontier, too. It's terrible, absolutely terrible...but it's not boring (unlike Insurrection). And I love the camping scenes at the beginning and the end, as well as the scene in the officer's lounge with Sybok doing his thing for Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

Plus I just love this:

4113068

Insurrection also had elves.

4113074
Yeah, that too. And it had a joystick for the Enterprise.

4113082

Now I'm remembering SF Debris' review of the film.

"Riker to Engineering: I need quarters. Lots of quarters!"

4113087
I should check out some Sci Fi Debris reviews.

4113101

Yes, you should.

Word of warning, though: you might want to stay away from the Enterprise reviews.

4113105
I'm sure it won't be anything that I haven't heard before, and besides, the third Birth of the Federation book comes out in March, so my Enterprise spirits are fairly high. The first two books were excellent.

No, seriously, I at the very least can't recommend the first one, A Choice of Futures, enough, if for nothing else but the scene wherein Tobin Dax explains why the Federation should use human-derived ships (saucer, outrigger nacelles) as opposed to Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, or other species' ship designs; he basically finally wins an argument that I've been making for years to people online about why Federation ships look the way they do.

I know you hate Enterprise, but I do recommend giving it a go. Worst comes to worst I still have your address somewhere and can reimburse you the $7.99 plus tax.

So, for those of you who don't know, I moved to Singapore within the last month. As such, I think I'm at about a 14 hour time difference from the rest of you, so our schedules will likely not overlap as much as they did back when I was on the Eastern seaboard.

Anyways, I'm here now, although I'm not really sure what there is to talk about. Emeral once again demanded that I change one of my stories, I considered and decided not to implement his critique, and he became angry, said I was destroying his love of the Lunaverse by refusing to do what he wanted, and said he'd have the quorum insist that I change the story (or presumably render it non-canon).

4113134

4112841
4112937 Not sure either what's going on but I think IAH's assessment is correct. G&C is just SO PRODUCTIVE compared to the rest of us, a machine really, that a few niggling problems that wouldn't be a problem to fix end up piling up and up and, since he's SO PRODUCTIVE, he feels like Emeral is just picking on him out of personal spite and nothing else, because it happens often.

And then there's his tendancy to not really work out all the kink in the brainstorming thread and just go full speed ahead with his story and get annoyed if we don't declare them canon...

Not saying Emeral is always right, but it's certainly a reason why their relationship is so rocky. G&C is a hard guy to follow and leaves plenty of us feeling inadequate in our writing speed.

Sorry if I'm not around that often... I was working the morning shift in the last few weeks and I do my best writing at night... and I've also recieved the Shout!Factory Zyuranger boxset... man such beautiful nonsense! BEAUTIFUL nonsense! I really want to plug a sphinx monster who traps people into trees now...

4113134 I should look into those books...

4113202 :

And then there's his tendancy to not really work out all the kink in the brainstorming thread and just go full speed ahead with his story and get annoyed if we don't declare them canon...

But here's the thing. Ice Hearts was betaed by 2 people--one of whom was RDD. So this isn't a case of me charging ahead on some hare-brained scheme. I ran this by other people, and there weren't any objections to the details Emeral is complaining about.

4113208 If you mean the crystal ball then I would have objected as well but I didn't really get the memo on that one until much later.

4113208
4113215

I fell behind on a lot of Lunaverse stuff. I didn't even know about the crystal ball until Emeral vented during our weekly Borderlands session.

That said, I have my own disagreements about it, but I think it could still be made to work...but not in a way G&C2 will be happy with, that's for sure.

4113215 4113208
At least some of this is my fault. I don't tend to think about larger implications for...anything, really. To me, Dinky having a crystal ball she can use to talk to Ice Heart is just that; it didn't occur to me that we were giving a very potent magical talky artifact to a "mere child."

This actually makes things a wee bit difficult for me as well because my upcoming Zaldia story is going to have a magic mirror connected to a magic hand mirror that two of the bad guys are gonna be using to talk to one another.

I don't know. It's interesting that the first part of this thread was dominated by Trek talk because I kind of have a Trekian approach to magical items. They show up when they're useful to move the plot along and are forgotten about when they wouldn't move the plot along, or invalidate the entire plot.

However. I'm given to understand that the problem isn't the crystal ball per se, it's just an ongoing feud/series of problems/etc. between Grass and Emeral that is finally basically coming to a head. Emeral feels that something should be "done" about the situation, and, well, we're here to "do" something.

Not sure what that something is, but damnit we're gonna do it.

4113257 And honestly I also had a mirror in my 'File Under "I" for Impossible' that allowed communication... it's just that the crystal ball is way more portable... and is apparently very rare? But then the pair is just left in the vault and Ponyville, when it could have been used to speed up the communication process between Luna and the L6, since the sending hat has its limit (since it sends to Luna's DESK and not the princess herself. If Iceheart was living in Canterlot it would be okay.

Plus there's the reason why this crystal ball is there in the first place, because apparently Ditzy and Dinky as SO CODEPENDANT that they can't spend a couple of days apart... despite the same thing happening in other stories.

And yeah, Icehearts and Dinky has friends super cute, blah blah blah, but you can't just always do stuff just because it's cute... at some point you gotta stop and think.

If we work out some rules on communication magic (maybe make it a Zaldian specialty? They's apparently the Kingdom of Glass right?) then maybe I wouldn't mind... I just don't think leaving a supposedly rare artifact just doing what being pen pals would accomplish is a good use of ressource for Equestria.

Plus if Dinky sends letter to Iceheart we can have a whole story framed as letters from Dinky!!

4113230 : So Emeral has been complaining about me behind my back and pushing the rest of the quorum to oppose me, then.

I've suspected it for a while, thanks to a couple comments he made some time ago, but I guess now I know it's true.

***

4113257 : As I explained to Emeral, the crystal ball was carefully designed by me so that it was basically a (very expensive) toy. In particular, since it has to be charged magically on both ends before it can make or receive calls means that it's not useful for anything where the calls aren't scheduled in advance. It wouldn't be useful, for instance, as a kind of warning system for a border patrol to report in anomalous activity, because the headquarters wouldn't know to charge the crystal ball at that very moment to receive the call. Similarly, it wouldn't work for Trixie to keep it around to ping Luna with emergency messages because Luna also wouldn't know when to charge the ball--and if Trixie told her some other way, then she could just convey her actual message that way as well.

It's basically the ultimate Puissance-y artifact--very rare/expensive, but functionally it's more decorative than anything else. It has little practical use. Connecting Dinky and Ice Heart, allowing IH some face time with a non-Vault pony so he can get to know her and maybe start breaking out of 'the Vault is the only place you will feel safe!' is probably the most useful thing that could be done with it. And that's going to be a lot more effective when IH can actually look at the pony on the other end of the line and be reassured that it's really Dinky, as opposed to a letter, which could be from anyone.

4113291 : And there's that as well. Magic communication already exists in the Lunaverse. Letting Dinky use it is not a huge world building disaster.

As I posted above, it wouldn't be viable for Luna/L6 talk because Luna won't know in advance when the L6 are going to be messaging her, so she wouldn't know when to use magic to turn the crystal ball on. Imagine a phone that you had to crank before it could receive calls. It would only be useful for scheduled calls that you knew would show up in advance. That could be fine for a kid, where a parent sets their schedule anyway, but it would be pretty useless for an adult--especially an adult trying to send emergency messages.

That all said, I'm fine with adding a line about how the crystal balls are some kind Zaldian thingie.

4113295

So Emeral has been complaining about me behind my back and pushing the rest of the quorum to oppose me, then.

Gonna stop this one right now; it's not complaining behind your back, so much as venting frustration with a goal of not creating a big kerfluffle in the forums nor dragging me into it. Keeping things as internalized as possible so as to prevent, well, the Night Court Debacle. His intentions were...I won't go so far as to say "pure," but certainly not as negative as I think you think they were.

Thing is that he did such a "good job" on that this time around that when he PM'd me I was blindsided by the situation.

Thankfully IAH was here and for once he could help cheer me up. Thanks, IAH.

4113295 OOOH! See I didn't know that detail... You know if we make that a constant rule of magical communication, that BOTH side must power up the linked artifacts (and that only two artifacts can be linked at a time) then I'm totally with it. The 'phone' type of communication seems more like a Saurian type of magic that was lost when they dissapeared, everything else could just be attempting and failing to emulate that magitech.

Though it WOULD be useful for keeping up with border guards, since they would just need to keep to a schedule and the MOMENT the schedule isn't respected it's an automated alert.

Emeral hasn't been trying to manipulate us into opposing you, he's just been venting in private, he just needed an ear for his frustration, don't worry.

4113291
In fairness I've alluded to the idea that Trixie wants to change her hat to send things to Luna directly and, indeed, have been planning to work that in somewhere. So still less "efficient" than the crystal ball, but the point is that it's totally something I'm willing to change, especially since the limitations of Trixie's enchantment have been plot points before and, therefore, something that she, or Luna, or both, would want to "fix."

(Oh, and the "Glass Kingdom" thing was supposed to be more about how fragile the whole thing actually is and as an allusion to G1 pony episode (that I've never seen); the "magic mirror" I was planning on justifying with its user, Ispelu Magikoa, being a specialized in divination/communication magic and, well, his name is literally "Magic Mirror" in Basque).

4113295
I understand your reasoning, and I'm not even against it. Like I said, I think this is less about the crystal ball and more about...well, Fizzy touched on everything here,
4113202.

4113338 As long as we make communication magic less useful and convinient than a phone I'm fine with the mirrors and all. Maybe for it to work one of two linked artifaces would need to be 'grounded' so to speak and link up with natural ley lines?

4113378
Again, Emeral's problem seems to be larger than just the crystal ball, so I'm not too concerned with it right now.

4113384 I know, but we're all here together so why the heck no take the opportunity you know?

4113389
I don't want us to get off track until we've sorted this out.

4113400 Sure! I understand... though we ight have to wait for Emeral to show up again.

4113421 4113300
I'm willing to wait. Until then...

...so, what's you're favorite Trek movie?

Yes yes yes, technically off-track, but it's also not something Lunaverse-related that will bog us down.

All right, I'm here now... but before we get down and dirty.

4112974

Roddenberry created a fantastic series but that doesn't necessarily mean that he was the best thing for that series. He's kind of like George Lucas in that respect.

Hmm. Wonder if I'm the same vis-a-vis the Lunaverse.

I can't really speak of Rodenberry, as I've never been quite into Star Trek enough to know what he did and didn't do, or what was and wasn't part of his view of what the series should be. I am however a pretty big Star Wars fan, so I can speak of my opinions on Lucas. The man was a creative genius, but as with many such individuals drive and passion could in many ways also be his own greatest enemies. It's sort of telling that the moving almost universally agreed to be the best is Empire Strikes Back, which is also the movie he had the least personal involvement with because he was to busy marketing and financing it. Still, without Lucas there wouldn't even be a Star Wars, and the whole shape of modern sci-fi might be entirely different.

In regards to the prequels (and to some extent the special edition remasterings of the originals), Lucas's greatest failing wasn't some change in his artistic sensibilities in the intervening decades, though yes, that was probably a contributing factor. Rather, his problem was a lack of peer review. When Lucas was writing the original Star Wars, he take his various drafts and show them off to his industry colleagues, many of whom out right told him it was trash. This in turn however allowed him take a more critical approach in determining what parts of his script mattered most, and what were just problematic authorial indulgences. Conversely when working on the prequels, Lucas would basically just lock himself in his office to write the script entirely in isolation. He never sought advice from any of his pees, so the only people who really ever got to see it during pre-production where his staff at ILM, all of whom where for whatever reason unwilling to call out their boss when he was making a mistake .

Short answer, RDD, you are the good kind of Lucas, the younger man who made the original trilogy, and we as your Quorum of personal advisors are the proof of that.

Anyway, I'm going to try to catch up and type up a coherent response to everything else -- truth be told I've been at it for a little bit now, but I'm woefully slow, and so probably should have at least announced my self sooner.

I have to go to a work thing. I'll be back later, if I can.

4113432 IV is pretty darn solid. Love the time travel hijinks! And First Contact which is also a time travel hijinks story...

4113526
In one way or another each of the four TNG movies deal with themes of time and age, I noticed...

4113541 Someone was affraid of growing old... certainly not Patrick Stewart, guy is practically immortal o.o

Speaking of TNG did I ever mention I got MArina Sirtis to sign my Gargoyles DVD? :D

4113295

So Emeral has been complaining about me behind my back and pushing the rest of the quorum to oppose me, then.

No he hasn't. He was upset, the conversation shifted to the Lunaverse, and that was it. Nobody else was in that conversation, and it had no impact on my opinion of IH. We talk shit about video games, comics, movies, anime, and other crap because we're already at the level cap, pretty much have optimized gear, and have nothing better to do.

If you want to know why I didn't like the crystal ball, here's why: it's a contrived plot point that continues one of the biggest issues the Lunaverse has had since day one - Dinky. The filly has absolutely no character to speak of outside of being the perfect child and the best friend ever. And that ending was just a continuation of that same broken theme. Dinky is boring. Dinky is pointless. Every story with Dinky as the lead role (including that treasure hunt story RDD is working on) feels flat and pointless because she is so personality-less that all life gets sucks out of the story.

So no, I didn't like the ending. I don't want it changed, though; I want us to work with it and around it, to make it better. Simply running back and wiping it out doesn't resolve anything.

Now I'm going to stop here until Emeral gets back, because I am about to say something really unkind.

4113673
Hmm...noted. I'll try and think of ways to make Dinky more interesting in Treasure Hunt and Season 3. Though I contest that she's "pointless," she does have a point, just not in and of herself; she was included so as to give Ditzy what I thought was an interesting angle, that is, she's a young mother that has to occasionally save the world at great risk to herself, and the potential issues that might cause Ditzy. Though I admit the result is Ditzy falling into what I'm going to call the Fluttershy Trap after what you've pointed out about Fluttershy in your own reviews; that is, every Ditzy-centric story or scene so far has related to Dinky in some way. Except in Through Fire and Flames where instead Ditzy had claustrophobia, so, go DagaYemar, I guess.

The big problem with Dinky is that I want most of the stories involving her to be relatively "normal"; that is, I want to try and get interesting stories out of her that don't involve things like love poisons or whatnot. I'm not that good at everyday slice of life, though, and I don't want to bring out the Missing Father card every time I write a story with her, either, as that would feel cheap.

I have an as-yet-untitled Ditzy/Carrot Top story in the works, so at least I can set about writing a Ditzy story that doesn't revolve around Dinky while still in Season 2.

4112841
I'd like to again apologize for my tardiness to this discussion. It was never my intent to leave you hanging, and I certainly didn't expect my PM to turn into the immediate subject of an emergency Quorum meeting.

So. Can we please try and hash things out here where I can be involved, maybe?

Maybe I should have done so from the start, but I really hate turning the gift of the Lunaverse into a repeated subject of strife and dissention, and in some small way maybe I'd hoped to spare you that this time around. Clearly I failed miserably at that.

I'm not entirely sure what to discuss here though. My specific problem with G&C2 most recent fic aren't really the root of the problem, just another in a long line of symptoms, even assuming the quorum acquiesced to all my supposed "demands" nothing would really change, and we'd just all be here again repeating this same song and dance with his next fic... or maybe if we were all lucky the one after that instead.

The truth of it is that, no matter how much G&C2 might like to try and play the victim, the rest of you all know there's quite a bit I hold back and refrain from. You all know because at various times I've sought council from each of you. Moreover, you have all to various degrees agreed with or even exceeded my concerns at times. Normally, that's the kind of private discussions I like to keep on the down low, because I'd never want to break confidence with any of you. I guess the cat is out of the bag now so to speak so maybe some full discretion is warranted. That said...

4113295

So Emeral has been complaining about me behind my back and pushing the rest of the quorum to oppose me, then.

There is lot less "pushing" than you seem to think. Again you're making the mistake of presuming I possess some undeserved sway over the Quorum -- if things were really that simple and I had everyone dancing like puppets on a string we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place, now would we?

No, I talk with RDD, Fizzy, and IAH privately, because... well, because they are people I consider to be my friends, people whom I can confide in and seek guidance from. Also, while I might often be the one to start such venting sessions, the "dirt" we ostensibly discuss behind your back has never been one-sided.

Moving on...

4113291

And honestly I also had a mirror in my 'File Under "I" for Impossible' that allowed communication...

You know, I'd honestly forgotten about that. Then again, that story also predated the later establishment that the Telegraph was supposedly the most advanced form of communication typically available. So I'd more so consider your mirrors a case of Early Installment Weirdness. Plus, well, I'm not entirely opposed to the basic existence of such items as rare or semi-unique artifacts. Even Trixie's own magic hat is a recurrent example of magic being used to circumvent normal limitations. Regardless, with every inclusion, such items become even the implicitly less rare (Uniqueness Decay), and is only further compounded if such items are shown to be of such trivial unimportance as to be casually relegated as mere children's toys.

Still, it is true that my bigger problem has less to do with the inclusion of the crystals, and more so how they are used in this particular story and the implications it places on multiple characters involved.

4113257

I don't know. It's interesting that the first part of this thread was dominated by Trek talk because I kind of have a Trekian approach to magical items. They show up when they're useful to move the plot along and are forgotten about when they wouldn't move the plot along, or invalidate the entire plot.

I'd be more or less fine with that kind of approach. It's why the simplest of my proposed solutions was only to excise the part wherein Dinky and Iceheart keep the crystals.

It wouldn't actually resolve any of my other problems with how the crystals were used. I'd still think their initial inclusion paints Ditzy and Dinky as overly codependent out of nowhere. Likewise, I'd still find it insulting the way that Dinky (a member of our cast ostensibly second in importance only to the L6) is reduced to a mere plot device and that her talent for making friends is not only exploited by the narrative to serve as a Deus-Ex-Machina, but seemingly by her own mother as well. Speaking of which, Ditzy is rather uncharacteristically duplicitous in her behaviors at the end of this story Not only does she introduce Iceheart to an outside foal in overt defiance of Puissance requests for approval (and mind the Vicereine is still the child's legal guardian), but she does so without consulting any of her friends, despite the fact that all of them might end up the subject of the Vicereine's subsequent ire. Moreover, she strategically saves the reveal of her actions until Luna is present, presumably counting on Puissance being unwilling to misbehave in front of the Princess, which is more or less the same kind of shenanigans Luna chewed Trixie out for towards the end of AtGGG and the entire reason the L6 were given right of approach.

Still, I would be willing to hand-wave ALL of that as necessary contrivances of this particular story, if it weren't for the foals getting to KEEP the crystals, which in turn would then only serve as a constant callback to these events. After all, Dinky having a pen-pal is a minor background detail that can be unobtrusively dropped into the background of any story. Dinky having one half of a pair of magic crystals with which she uses to regular chat with said friend is significantly more conspicuous and begging for repeated expositional explanations.

To go back to the some of the other Star Trek examples. There have been some downright terrible episodes in regards to certain ideas or implications, but one of the strengths of Star Trek has always been that since most episodes are by and large self-contained, it's easy enough to just ignore the most troubling parts and instead focus on only the good.

That's really all I'm asking for here. Yes I have some more exacting suggestions as to how my problems with this story could be further smoothed over, all of which I've tried to make as non-intrusive as possible to G&C2 primary narrative, but the only thing I really need out of this is for the foals to not keep the magic talkie crystals and instead just be ordinary pen-pals -- with maybe the addition caveat that Puissance, when she privately goes to try and convince Iceheart he doesn't need outside friends, would upon seeing just how excited the foal is while already writing his first letter (and in consideration of her own concerns over not having recently received mail from Red Rose), offer up display of ostensibly magnanimous affluence, by agreeing to let him send the message using her personal telegraph (as mentioned in AtGGG), and perhaps likewise offering to pay for Dinky to reply to such message in turn as well. This I think would provide a great back door for the entire vault to become less isolated. After all if the crystals are something supposedly unique, than they only really help Iceheart. If Puissance instead allows the foal more mundane means of communication, then invariable other residents of the vault might start asking for the same favor, which might eventually lead to Puissance having a telegraph installed in the vault village itself.

...

Seriously though, it's not in anyway my desire to take this story away from G&C2, nor to see it blanket removed from canon. This it in truth my favorite story he's written all season. Yes I'm pointing out flaws that detract from my personal enjoyment of the story, but I do also genuinely believe that with a little tweaking, the whole thing could be even better. Maybe I came across as overbearing in my approach, but truth be told, I miss the old days, back when me and G&C2 weren't always fighting about... well, most everything. Yes, we've always had our disagreements, but we used to also be able to at least occasionally work together in spite of those.

...

Anyway, much as I might like to further go into detail about each and every little tweak or suggestion. My greater concern real is with the entire function of the Quorum as a whole, and well... how I just don't think any of us really talk nearly as much as we should. To many decisions are relegated to arbitrary votes, before we've adequately discussed the pros and cons, and thus we never really reach a meaningful consensus, which in turn leads to these petty resentments and misunderstandings.

Maybe that wouldn't be such a problem for the rest of you, who are all much more lax and easy going (at least publicly), but G&C2 and my self are both far to strongly opinionated, and I think we both tend to fixate on the instances where a vote has swung in the others favor. If the two of us are both going to coexist in this Quorum, than it's all the more important that we be able to reach some kind of mutual compromise in these matters, and well, maybe that's sort of where the rest of you come into play.

Of course maybe, that tow would be all to easily mistaken for lining up and taking sides, doubly so RDD with his executive privilege. So maybe it's far to late for mutual compromise and consensus to ever be a realistic possibility. Yet while G&C2 would be right to believe that it would be my preference if he were the one to leave... still it's never really been how I expected this to work out in the end.

I know that as a far more prolific and ostensibly popular author than myself, it might wreck the entire Lunaverse if G&C2 was ever forced to leave against his will. Which is why much as I've always feared the prospect, I've always been willing to resign, if RDD (or I suppose the Quorum as a whole now) thought it would be for the best. Which is what brought all of here tonight.

I've reached the end of my rope. As things currently stand I can no longer see myself ever being ably to willingly read another story written by G&C2 again. I can no longer give any benefit of the doubt to an author who so clearly is unwilling to work with me in turn. It's not just because of this one story, but because of multiple other stories as well. Moreover it's because no less than three times last year, when I had peaceably negotiated a compromise with another author in regard to some story they were either currently writing or intending to write in the future, G&C2 stepped in after the fact to completely undermine all of my efforts.

Yes, I get more than a little envious of how quickly diligently G&C2 can write his stories (an envy I think we all share), but the thing I absolutely can't compete with is his permissiveness. Of course other authors will always take the side of the nice admin who tells them they can do whatever they want, but that kind of permissiveness and creative recklessness is no way to manage an ostensibly coherent continuity, but instead only results in an ever increasingly jumbled mess.

4113687
Let's start with this (abridged to keep the quote from being larger than the response) so as to get the crystal ball thing out of the way early:

That's really all I'm asking for here. [...] If Puissance instead allows the foal more mundane means of communication, then invariable other residents of the vault might start asking for the same favor, which might eventually lead to Puissance having a telegraph installed in the vault village itself.

This seems thought-out and reasonable. It solves the problems of the crystal ball and, as Emeral points out, suggests a way for the Vault in general to become more open as ponies other than Ice Heart might acquire pen pals in one form or another. So, Grass, any objections? It is your story, and as you pointed out it was proofread by two people, including me, so there's no mandate for change here, just an acknowledgement of Emeral's points and a suggesting that it might not be a bad idea.

Okay, moving on...

how I just don't think any of us really talk nearly as much as we should.

We really don't...

To many decisions are relegated to arbitrary votes, before we've adequately discussed the pros and cons, and thus we never really reach a meaningful consensus, which in turn leads to these petty resentments and misunderstandings.

...but there is a reason why things are done this way. Namely, bluntly, there are stories that we will be at odds about, irreconcilably. Me and you, you and Grass, Grass and me, Fizzy and IAH might eventually have one out of a sense of being left out...and meanwhile while we're debating and trying to compromise the author of the given story is waiting and waiting and waiting for whether or not his or her story will be approved...

Point being that, while I don't necessarily want things to be rushed through, there should be a point at which a final decision is reached by us so that a story can be canonized. Otherwise some stories would end up caught in limbo here forever. Now, a simple solution to this might be to impose a, say, five-day Discussion period during which time a fic can be discussed and debated over, and at the end of this period is when the fic's canon or non-canon status is decided. Does that sound good?

Part of the problem, as well, might be that we canonize things based on initial impressions rather than completed stories. But, there's a reason for that too, namely that a lot of people don't want to have to wait until they've finished a story to know whether or not what they're writing is going to be canonized (and yes yes yes, you feel that "canonization" shouldn't be important, and to some it isn't, but to others it is, and that's just the way they feel)

Of course maybe, that too would be all to easily mistaken for lining up and taking sides, doubly so RDD with his executive privilege.

In fairness, I plan to only use that to break tie votes if/when they come up, or tyrannically decide to let some non-Lunaverse stories be considered Lunaverse fanfiction.

I can no longer give any benefit of the doubt to an author who so clearly is unwilling to work with me in turn.

In the interest of absolute fairness, you are aware that, by becoming fixated on certain ideas or suggestions and then steadfastly clinging to those and arguing for them no matter what, you can come across as just as unwilling to compromise? I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, it's just...you understand that from the outside looking in, or from Grass' perspective, that's how you can come across, yes?

4113687

I know that as a far more prolific and ostensibly popular author than myself, it might wreck the entire Lunaverse if G&C2 was ever forced to leave against his will. Which is why much as I've always feared the prospect, I've always been willing to resign, if RDD (or I suppose the Quorum as a whole now) thought it would be for the best. Which is what brought all of here tonight.

I don't want you to leave, so the Quorum as a whole can't demand that now.

I haven't been the most active in the Quorum. Real life has taken a toll on my time, as evidenced by my minuscule writing turnout these days. You're right that we need to discuss things more...but we actually need things to discuss. Every thread that's created here is just another story that needs approval; everything else that happens goes on in the group forum. The Quorum needs to be more than just a yay/nay on what's canon or not.

If you decide to leave, I'm sorry I wasn't able to catch all this earlier. Maybe I could have stepped in and resolved something. As it stands, I'll be busy contemplating jamming a knife into my throat for the rest of the evening.

4113755

As it stands, I'll be busy contemplating jamming a knife into my throat for the rest of the evening.

Please don't. I realize we don't "talk" much, but I'm pretty sure bleeding out would impair your ability to type, too...

...also, you raise a good point about how we in the Quorum need to talk more here. I kind of didn't want to because I want the Lunaverse as a whole to be involved in our discussions, but...maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we hashed things out here, more than just stories. Still in the public eye, though, since the Lunaverse's other members can peak in at their discretion.

4113753

This seems thought-out and reasonable. It solves the problems of the crystal ball and, as Emeral points out, suggests a way for the Vault in general to become more open as ponies other than Ice Heart might acquire pen pals in one form or another. So, Grass, any objections? It is your story, and as you pointed out it was proofread by two people, including me, so there's no mandate for change here, just an acknowledgement of Emeral's points and a suggesting that it might not be a bad idea.

Sorry, but I don't think that works as well.

I want IH to be able to communicate with Dinky, and by extension her other friends, at a higher level than just words. I want Dinky to be able to show her things--games, or pictures, or some cool new spell she learned--and vice versa. I want Dinky to be able to to smile at IH if IH says he's feeling sad, and for IH to be able to see it. I want IH to be able to potentially meet other foals if Dinky brings them over to sit in while she chats with IH, even if it's off-screen and unmentioned.

A letter could come from anyone; IH is still somewhat paranoid, thanks to Puissance, and would be unlikely to just trust that it's authentic. Even if he did, there's limits to what you can do in a letter. I feel that personal communication via the balls is much better.

4113687

I've reached the end of my rope. As things currently stand I can no longer see myself ever being ably to willingly read another story written by G&C2 again. I can no longer give any benefit of the doubt to an author who so clearly is unwilling to work with me in turn. It's not just because of this one story, but because of multiple other stories as well. Moreover it's because no less than three times last year, when I had peaceably negotiated a compromise with another author in regard to some story they were either currently writing or intending to write in the future, G&C2 stepped in after the fact to completely undermine all of my efforts.

Emeral, you badger the other authors in the group and make it clear that you will not shut up until they acquiesce and do what you want. You have completely forgotten that our authors need to be willing to write the stories to expand our universe. Flipping out because TGV, for instance, wanted to do a cute Bloodpie story, or T&T wanted to have talking sheep--even though it would not have had catastrophic or significant implications for the verse as a whole and it fit tonally with the generally pleasant nature of the verse--did nothing other than drive them away from writing a story or plot points which could have been good and something they really wanted to write. And then when they finally give in, you crow about how you 'negotiated' a compromise, even though the compromise is usually you getting everything you want and them just not wanting to fight anymore.

You get obsessed with the most minute of details and grind everything to a halt until people say they'll just write what you consider the perfect conception of the Lunaverse to be. But it's not all about you. The verse is for all of its contributors, and while we should act as guides, we as quorum members should never shut down a good idea just because it's not what we would have done. If another author wants to write a story, and it won't hurt anything, there's no reason to shoot them down.

but the thing I absolutely can't compete with is his permissiveness. Of course other authors will always take the side of the nice admin who tells them they can do whatever they want, but that kind of permissiveness and creative recklessness is no way to manage an ostensibly coherent continuity, but instead only results in an ever increasingly jumbled mess.

This is supposed to be fun. We aren't getting paid for this; there's no reason for anyone to write for the Lunaverse unless they enjoy it. So yes, I'm permissive, particularly with minor details that don't really matter. If an author wants to do something and it won't hurt anything, why stop them?

You act like the Lunaverse is your own personal commission, and that any deviation from what you want is sacrilege. You have become incensed that I dared write details you disapprove of. But that isn't how it works. Other people matter too.

4113864

I want IH to be able to communicate with Dinky, and by extension her other friends, at a higher level than just words. I want Dinky to be able to show her things--games, or pictures, or some cool new spell she learned--and vice versa. I want Dinky to be able to to smile at IH if IH says he's feeling sad, and for IH to be able to see it. I want IH to be able to potentially meet other foals if Dinky brings them over to sit in while she chats with IH, even if it's off-screen and unmentioned.

Let me ask a question...how often do you plan on any of this coming up?

4113871 : Personally, I don't plan to reference it again until S3. I know TGV has already referenced it in CoC, and I expect that it might pop up now and then as a background detail in a goofy way (e.g., Dinky asks her mom for some absurdly expensive toy, because IH showed it to her via crystal ball and made it sound like it was trivial to obtain {because for Puissance, it is}).

Incidentally, if we want to develop Dinky, how about letting some of IH's absurdly permissive environment rub off on her? As long as IH doesn't try to leave the Vault, Puissance will get him any toy or let him do pretty much activity that he likes. Maybe Dinky starts getting annoyed at all the rules she has to follow? ("Ice Heart can study any subject he wants in school. Ice Heart can eat two bowls of ice cream for dessert. Ice Heart...")

(In S3, I hope to do something more with Solar Flare. And I also hope to reference the Vault becoming a bit more open--maybe the Elements visit for some reason. So it would be relevant then, I think).

4113878
The thing is, none of this seems like something that can't be accomplished via letters.

I'm not telling you to change anything, I'm just sayin'. There isn't a whole lot here that requires the Crystal Ball, since its purpose (speedy communication) isn't ever going to be utilized except in the background (for example, if Ice Heart is feeling down, saying "I got a letter from Icy saying he's feeling sad" won't have any more Effect than "I talked to Icy and he's feeling sad". Either way the audience knows that Ice Hearts is feeling sad and Dinky knows this), so snail mail would work just as well.

But again, just sayin', not mandating anything. Personally I think the advantage of using mail over the crystal ball is that it connects Ditzy in better since she's a mailmare. "Dinky, guess who sent you a letter?"

Anyway. It's getting late where I am, so I'll have to pick this up again tomorrow.

Maybe y'all could surprise me by having everything sorted out all happy-like when I come back tomorrow? Maybe? Because I just want things to be happy again, and also because I was planning on using tomorrow to finish up chapter 1 on Glass Kingdom, and really don't need this bringing me down when I'm trying to do so.

4113687
4113753
4113755 We really do need to talk more about other stuff... maybe we should, for exemple, sit down and decide once and for all how many sentient species are out there. Hash out stuff like the structure of the Equestrian army or, I dunno, what is the Crystal Empire like?

4113864 It sounds like you just don't want your precious Iceheart to be forgotten and want to weight down our already large foal cast with one of your creation. You have a bad tendency to create characters and not being willing to let them go once they fulfilled their narrative purposes. I'm not saying Iceheart should dissapear though, just using him as a sort of exemple. Like RDD asked, how often do you really expect it to come up? And what would it add to stories where it DID come up aside from being narrative bloat that would demand exposition for readers who didn't read Ice Heart? It's cute but is there any reason beyond that? Iceheart isn't a main character or a secondary character, he's a tertiary character at best.

If we really want to continue this whole continuity thing, we should be wary of modifying our status quo TOO often in a single season. It's nice for Dinky and Iceheart to be friend, but maybe it would be better emphasized if they get to SEE each other only once in a while instead of everyweek? But in PERSON this time? Trying to dilute these Icehearts bits everywhere just feel like tedious minutae to me, when we could instead make a good story out of Icehart and Dinky meeting face to face for the first time.

Plus think of the other Vault residents! Is it fair for them to be so isolated while little Iceheart gets his magical Skype call every week? If we went with the telegraph idea it would be open to everypony in the Vault, AND it would play in with Puissance's redemption if she became less strict with the Vault's isolation .

I don't know what happened with the Bloodpie fic but can you just let go of the sheep thing? Seriously you make it sound like it ruined the story that we didn't allow sentient sheep! The goats turned out fine and I rather enjoy them in Climbing the Mountain. I saw the argument and it was perfectly civil! You're the only one making a big deal out of it!

4113910 :

ZAS was forced to change one of his fics, which he had already completed, because Emeral suddenly objected to the baabaashop quartet having sheep in it. Even though he clearly didn't want to. That's a problem.

And it's not that I don't want IH to be forgotten. I want him to be able to communicate with Dinky at a level beyond just words. Like I said above--IH should be able to see Dinky showing him things like spells or toys. If he's sad, he should be able to see Dinky's smile. You can't do that with letters or telegraphs.

And IH won't weigh anything down. He's not present in PV, so he never needs to be accounted for.

And as for the other Vault residents, maybe this is a first step. I have no objection to the other Vaulters eventually getting to use a telegraph or letters or something to talk with other people (although many of them have no one to talk to).