Just in case the title wasn't read, I['m goign to warn you here, this thread will contain spoilers for this week's episode You have been warned
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(Spoilers Begin)
So... Orchard Blossom happened. And I'm wondering what to think about it.

On one hand, we have a character behaving in a very non-cisgender fashion, and the judges being accepting of it in and of itself, which implies some experience with crossdresssing and out and out TG matters to be canon to the show.

On the other hand. Mac's Orchard voice is painfully cliche falsetto, any pre-HRT girl with a modicum of care (and I know we're "Twi looks relatively sane" OCD lot..) can sound far more natural, even myself with a natural vocal register comparable to Big Mac's.

All that said, what's the general consensus. Is Big Mac just doing something to help his little sister, or will we see Orchard Blossom spread her wings a bit more?

4757161
I am just going to link my thread from LGBT regarding the episode: Linky

Is Big Mac just doing something to help his little sister, or will we see Orchard Blossom spread her wings a bit more?

Big Mac is just crossdressing and wanting to help his young sister, there are ZERO signs of a trans character, but the episode does open some light for gender identity in some minor instances. It's definitely my favorite episode this season.

4757167
Edit: Okay, that was fast.

Ah, my bad. I'm not in that group so I don't get notices about it's threads in my alerts.

4757161
Probably not but maybe a different character may show this. But that's unlikely as well. But I can see a show like SU doing this though.

4757169

I got the impression from this episode that Big Mac kind of liked being "Orchard Blossom" -- but not so much because Orchard was female. More because Orchard wasn't Big Mac, so Mackie got the chance to express himself.

Big Mac, remember, is extremely shy. He isn't comfortable expressing his thoughts and feelings to others -- he only really does so with family, and even with family he's not comfortable discussing his deeper emotions. But we know from the comics that he's actually very intelligent -- as smart as Applejack -- and he has complex thoughts and emotions.

Big Mac loves to perform --- to express himself under circumstances where it's a bit artificial -- singing with the Ponytones, for instance. I think the reason is that since it's not his own words, but rather a pre-written song (or, as "Orchard Blossom," pretending to be somepony else) he doesn't feel as shy.

I also think that Big Mac and Applejack have a history of amateur theatricals, possibly with friends growing up on Sweet Apple Acres. Note that he basically did the exact same thing Applejack did when she created "Applejewel." Maybe this isn't the first time Big Mac's dressed up in drag -- the other times, playing skirt roles in plays with AJ and their friends, when he was a colt.

Oh, and did any of you get the huge joke implicit in his name? "Orchard" is a pun on "orchid," and the latter word derives from "orchis" and that from "orkhis" -- Greek for "testicle." Big Mac was basically saying that he was a mare with testicles -- which is to say, that he was in drag. And I'm guessing that the Translation Convention means that he was saying the exact same thing in Equestrian. Furthermore, Mackie is smart, so he probably picked the name on purpose.

Interesting theories, Jordan179. love your work, btw. especially your shadowverse stuff, double especially "A Meeting By Moonlight"

Honestly, I realize we're all putting a lot of thought into what amounts to pastel ponies geared towards little girls, but, as you yourself have demonstrated, there's a lot of depth there.

I absolutely refuse to watch it.
I watch Steven Universe and the episode "Sadie's Song" had Steven wearing a cute little outfit and being feminine in front of a large crowd, and it was good.
The pictures I've seen of "Transphobic Nightmare" do not look like that at all, and honestly I will stop watching the show as it airs now.
I go from 0 to 100 real quick, and I don't just cool off.
My anger is an eternal flame, and this managed to light it.
I wish it had never been made.
Because no matter good something tries to do or hints at, it is the surface that touches the most people.
And if that impression is a bad one and is aimed at kids, double whammy here, then it's even worse.
I wish I could scrub out every memory related to this.
It's going to be torturing me for weeks now, I can just tell.

Link to Sadie's Song because everyone should watch it
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x375yso_su-sadie-s-song_fun

Links to testimonials on why is episode is harmful overall
http://ikaricrossinglines.tumblr.com/post/130467295161/hi-i-saw-some-discussion-of-transmisogyny-in
http://ponydreamdiary.tumblr.com/post/130426189790/servingspoon69-ponydreamdiary-man-i-like

Just so angry......

Honestly I liked the episode, but when I tried to mention trans issues in the context of it my story did not go over well. Honestly I found some of the comments unnerving.

4757426

4757426
You've clearly been extremely misinformed, and your unwillingness to watch and episode combined with your willingness to leave a fandom based on nothing but rumors is even more shameful than your Drake reference.

4757161
This was an episode about a brother's devotion to his sister. Everything else is incidental.

4757427 I introduced a transgendered Lyra in my story and have hadno backlash, but Lyra is a support character just starting a relationship with Bonbon. Maybe because I have tried to be quiet and respectful with the issue people dont mind? Good luck anyways!

weird thing. I had Fluttershy in my one published fic be very peripherally involved and be MtF, and didn't get any backlash, in anything people liked the idea. granted I credit a large part of that to Lady Froey and this group.

Ugh, look the reason I'm so angry and unwilling to watch it at all is because they made Big Mac look like a caricature, and I'm sick and tired of caricature. It could've been the best representation of anything in the world, but if it looks like caricature I can't enjoy it. Maybe that's just a me thing, but for it was a nail in a coffin that's been a long time coming.
I'll keep up with the show when interesting or world changing episodes come out, but because of this I no longer have much trust in the show's staff to at least be respectful.

4757750 Have you even watched the episode? Just curious

And hum...*looks at half finished orchard blossom story written, shocks head, scrapes it*

not today my friend.

4757668
My fic with a lead trans character has been featured multiple times, it's all about how you write the characters and story.

Main thing to focus is that you want to write a character, not write a trans character who is only defined for being trans.

4758082 Well to be fair your fanfic did have a cohesive plot besides "I am trans and that affects me so and so". It focused on a pretty common pairing (it probably helped, though I'm not saying it was the deciding factor), and it was pretty well written. It was also written in a way that most people can't even dare or hope to achieve in their writing.

Vinyl wasn't defined by being trans* he was trans sure, but he was a character that happened to be trans, not a trans character who happened to be a character, so to speak.

Also, it brought me tears of joy several times, and (imo) it deserved every recognition it got.

4758097
Aww... Thanks.

4757427 What did they say ?

4757790 please link the story when it's done. please

4762707

See for yourself:
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/292440/would-it-matter-if-i-was-trans

4762707 Oh, no, no, no. I can do it with spike in spike the princess because he constantly refers to himself as a princess. (Even if that story frankly isn't my best, not by a longshot).

I can do it to scootaloo, and silver spoon and babs, because, well...I was questioning.

But this? This was just a guy trying to gain his sister's respect and trust again, that much was clear, I am not drawing social commentary out of it again. I'm not going to dig a hole and jump in it

4762709 I C

I gotta say, I cringed so hard through this episode. In and of itself, I don't so much mind Mac-in-a-dress. What I do mind was the way they continued to bring attention to it, like they could have run the entire thing with everyone acting as if Orchard Blossom was just another mare, without changing the end part where they got disqualified.
There wasn't any reason to point out all the points where he didn't pass, except to laugh at him for it. If it had been anyone else, a large and strong cis-mare or Mac-not-in-a-dress, I think it would have been easier for people to see why it bothers me. I've never been able to laugh at people just because they fail; it just seems mean spirited.
Sorry, I'm not expressing this very well.
What I also mind is how contrived the whole thing was. Like, we know from the comics that Mac is a smart, no nonsense guy. There is no reason he wouldn't just turn to Granny Smith, when he found out Rainbow was also competing, and ask if he could compete as well.

4778258 I'm only awake for less than an hour right now so forgive me if my theory is not very eloquent.

Remember that the show is still geared towards little kids. Kids laugh easily as long as it is actually funny. Other than Mac being clumsy or whatever there was not many jokes. So in the end they had to do something for the kids who aren't, are not aware of, or simply don't care about trans related stuff. If it was just Mac in a dress ...and that's it nothing funny happened, then the little boy or girl who watches just because they think it's a funny show will get bored and change the channel.

edit:

4779293

Nothing funny did happen. The 'jokes,' which I'm not sure were even intended as jokes, were all about how Mac wasn't passing, and it was all done in the context of gender normativity. It made me feel awful in multiple ways, as opposed to the one or two ways FiM normally does. This is not a considerate portrayal of drag. It made Mac the fool, and the story ended up revealing that the awful ruse wasn't even necessary. If they hadn't had Orchard Blossom in such an awful dress, hair, and makeup, it would have been ten times better. The falsetto was nightmarish, but plausible, though Mac's diction was equally ridiculous (this isn't entirely believable as well, as he isn't used to speaking this much).

Froey gives them points for Sweetie Belle and Rainbow Dash dropping it, and the DJ that doesn't misgender Mac's representation, but these are incidental. Rainbow Dash backs off because Mac points out that Scootaloo isn't actually her sister. Sweetie Belle's initial reaction was incredulity and disgust. The DJ's portrayal is the same 'awkward "sir, ma'am, sir ma'am",' it's only made implicit in his obvious hesitance and doubting tone. The old courter's attraction is purely a joke on his bad eyesight. The gags, like Mac crushing the table? The falsetto going bad and Mac singing the last bar of that song as deeply as possible? (The crowd's reaction to it?) The juggling routine, failed due to the dress, and another mention about how he shouldn't have worn high heels that I can't remember? Mac is completely un-self-conscious while doing this, all for the sake of these gags, and all of these gags are supposed to motivate Applebloom's obvious disgust for her brother, which hits way too close to home for my comfort. It's faux transphobia; all of these are trans-negative tropes inserted by the writers, and made justifiable by the awfulness of Big Mac's disguise, which just so happened to be inserted by the writers as well. This is nothing to congratulate.

That said, the ending was the most touching MLP has been in a while, if not ever. I may not be remembering other touching conversations, but last conversation between Applebloom and Big Mac at the very end felt real to me, palpably emotional. Mac's soliloquy was interesting, and in my opinion paid for the rest of the episode's shittiness. It's too bad they spoiled the moment at the last second with the now-typical Everybody Laughs Ending.

4757426

To call this episode 'harmful' or a 'passive form of trans violence' is just as wrong and stupid as calling this episode 'progressive,' 'considerate,' or 'a light-hearted silly joke.' Eldorado is completely full of shit when he says that this is not the place for heavy social commentary. Overanalyzing this show is almost literally half of the fandom. At the same time, calling it an assault or whatever SJWs may think of it is equally wrong, because the showrunners believe that what they've done is progressive. They have been unconsciously affected by these tropes as well; if they weren't, they would understand that their portrayal is not! It boggles my mind how SJWs can understand that tropes can affect people's opinions and beliefs unconsciously, and then turn right back around and demonize people for producing something that is very much a product of their culture.

4801379
I agree with 87/43% of what you said. Personally, I feel this was exceptionally tasteful for this typical scenario, especially seeing how completely "normal" ponies considered the situation. Sweetie Belle was incredulous, not disgusted, methinks. What matters is that while ponies didn't understand why, they didn't question it.
It's also worth noting that Peter New is an ally.

4801467

Peter New does seem awesome, but the outcome was pretty disappointing to me.

What matters is that while ponies didn't understand why, they didn't question it.

That's cherrypicking a good element. That is not "what matters" (as if there is any one thing that is all that matters); that is what presents the episode in the most favorable light.

4801586
It depends on your interpretation, like with most things in this show. I appreciated how little Mac was made fun of:3 Of course, it could have been better, but then, that's the case with many things. I felt that the ambiguous nature of Mac's decision both serves as a fairly successful effort to normalise "crossdressing" and as a nod to gender dysphoria, considering the wordiness when in the persona of Orchard Blossom. It kind of feels like awareness is being spread, and something LGBT is indirectly "okayed" in the show, which is a good message~
Really tired, but trying to make a point for why I don't think it's as bad as you think it is.)

4801818

The elements I consider more important were handled worse than the elements you consider more important. That's all there is to say about it.

4801864
Okay, then we're settled on that~

4757427 I just think some people are mean, plus we (as a fandom) have a pretty solid picture of Big Mac, and alot of people don't like having those views challenged.