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Like one time this year heard on the radio saying how saying try in your work environment is not good.
So like wanna know is saying to God you will try your best to do what's right a bad thing? Not like I think it is, I guess.
6165861
Even on a psychological level, going about something in an "I'll try" attitude is going to make things feel more effortfull and difficult. You either give something your all or you don't do it at all.
6165861 Imagine having a brain tumor and a surgeon says to you, "Sure, I might fail at it, and you'll be permanently brain dead. But hey! At least I'll give it my best, that's something, right?"
You either do good or you don't. Trying and failing gets you nowhere.
6165861
As long as you actually try, it's perfectly fine. All of us sin, but we should constantly strive to avoid it.
Let people do what they will, as long as a person actually tries, then there's no need to be nitpicky about arbitrary terminology.
6165861
As a great philosopher once said: “Do or do not, there is no try.”
6166439
I agree that it’s important to give your best effort and if you fall short then it’s not the end of the world. I might disagree with the other part of your statement, depending on what you mean when you say ‘sin’. Can you define it please?
6166476
Sin is something that separates you from God and His perfectness.
6166724
How do you know there even is a god to be separated from though?
6166727
Through my faith and His Son Jesus Christ
6166728
Ok, what do you mean when you use the word ‘faith’.
I hope you don’t mind these questions, I just don’t want to assume anything and make as ass out of you and me!
6166731
Nah, I don't mind.
Faith is belief with action. So I believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that he died for our sins and I try to live my life according to His teachings.
6166746
So your saying faith is believing something and taking actions as a result?
Is there any reason or evidence for your beliefs?
6166815
Yep. And I'd say my belief comes from Christ's ministry/resurrection, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit working in my life
6166870
So your saying you believe in Jesus’s teachings and life story as presented in the bible, and your evidence is the Holy Spirit working in your life, right?
What does the ‘Holy Spirit working in your life’ look like?
6167379
The Holy Spirit leads me away from sin and encourages me in my persuit of God.
6167473
Do you have anything else? That answer was circular.
6167477
How so?
6167533
What is Sin?
How do you know there is a god to be separated from?
What is faith?
What’s your reason for believing?
What does the Holy Spirit working in your life look like?
Right back where we started.
How do you know there’s a god? Because of the Holy Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit do? It leads you to god. How do you know here is a god to be led too? Because of the Holy Spirit. Rinse and repeat.
The term ‘sin’ is meaningless If god doesn’t exist, so you can’t use sin as a way to prove god. You have to prove god first, then we can talk about sin. I reject your concept of sin because I see no reason (at this time) to believe there is a god.
I’m not saying your wrong in your conclusion, but the reasoning you’ve given so far is circular.
Do you have any other evidence? What exactly does the ‘Holy Spirit working in your life’ look like?
6167664
There are many ways that the Spirit works in a believer's life. He is the one who draws us to God, He regenerates us when we accept Christ as our Savior, He is the Helper that Jesus told us the Father would send after Jesus' Ascension, and He gives us different gifts, as well as increases what is called the "fruits of the Spirit" in believers (some of these "fruits" include peace, love, joy, kindness, and patience). The Holy Spirit works in other ways besides these.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-today.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/what-does-the-Holy-Spirit-do.html
6167664
Profs got some good links for the Holy Spirit.
I also think that the ministry and ressurection of Christ leads me to believe
6167718
I’ll read yours if you read mine. 😜
https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/summary.htm
6167722
Website links that sombody else posted can’t possibly be the reason you already believed (and I’m not implying that you said they are). Links to other people’s thoughts are fine if we are talking about facts or research or where you originally encountered an argument you’ve adopted, but I was asking why you believe.
I’m a little confused by this. You believe in the ministry and life story of Jesus as presented in the bible. That’s what you believe, I’m asking why.
What does it look like when the holy spirit acts in your life?
What should I be watching out for as evidence it’s acting in my life?
6167718
This article makes a bunch of claims that the spirit does stuff and then cites a bunch of bible verses that make the same or similar claims, as if a claim in an ancient book somehow counts as evidence!?!
This article does the exact same thing.
Ok cool, what does that look like? People changing their minds and being more open minded and moral? How do you tell the difference between Jim here that has the Holy Spirit affecting him, John who’s just deluding himself, and Kyle who has schizophrenia?
That just repeats the claim. Great that you originally got the idea from this ancient book, but I’m still wondering if there is any good reason to think it’s true.
I look forward to your thoughts on the page I sent you.
6167858
The links just explain it better than I could.
I see the case of the disciples spreading word of Jesus' ressurection to be compelling. They claim to have seen Jesus resurrected before they went out to spread the Gospel. They would have to be either liars, crazy men, or they were telling the truth. Seems like too many of them for them all to be crazy, and it doesn't make much sense for them to go to their deaths in Rome if they were lying.
The Holy Spirit can only come to dwell with you if you believe in Jesus Christ
6167882
Maybe they were just wrong? The 9/11 highjackers believed in their god and the idea of martyrdom enough to die, as do thousands of other Muslims around the world. Does the fact that they were willing to die for their beliefs some how make their beliefs true?
They could also just be legends. The biblical account could have simply been exaggerated over the years. How did you rule that possibility out? (Please don’t say faith!)
That’s ok. The placebo effect only works on people that believe they are taking a drug/medication. We can still test the drugs and see if they actually are medication or just sugar pills.
How do we test if the Holy Spirit is real and not Just a proverbial sugar pill? If two christians claim to have the Holy Spirit and they disagree on a point of doctrine, how do we tell which one actually has it?
6167882
Millions of people state that they saw UFOs. If a few eye-witnesses 2 thousand years ago are enough to convince you of something, you should be a million times more convinced of UFOs than Jesus. Are you? Are you surer there are UFOs above your head than there is Jesus sitting on a cloud? If what you say is the real reason why you believe what you believe (and not brainwashing) then this should be the case. If it's not, you're not being honest in your reasons for believing what you believe.
6167890
It's whoever out-talks the other.
6168065
Lol
6168110
6168065
Or on a national scale, it's whoever commits the most terrorism.
6168124
I don’t think there’s many examples of modern Christian terrorists....
6168192
Except there kind of is. :/
6167890
True, however the disciples claimed to see a resurrected Jesus in the flesh with their own eyes. They would have known absolutely whether or not His Word was the truth.
Doubtful, as the events in question are so close to the writing. As an example, the book of Romans is claimed to have been written by the apostle Paul, one of those who had witnessed a resurrected Jesus.
Since the Holy Spirit is not physical, I'm not sure how that could be tested. It would be a hell of a coincidence though. I was nudged toward following the Bible before I was knowledgeable about its contents.
The Holy Spirit would never contradict the Word of God, so whosoever views matches the Bible is in agreement with the Spirit. If the Bible is not too clear and several interpretations can be made then the disagreement is not important.
6167997
People aren't tortured and killed for saying they saw a UFO. Lying about them is therefore much safer and probable.
As for the question on two opposing points on doctrines, I believe the whole Bible must be taken into consideration. Use a variety of accurate translations. Compare scripture with scripture. Above all, do not use the conflict as a stumbling block.
Feel free to genuinely ask for a sign. There is a mission story where a woman planted a garden. She dedicated each row to a possible answer and tended each one the same. Some rows died out completely, while others did a little better. One did exceptionally well.
I hope this helps.
6168427
There are martyrs in all religions. Christianity is not unique in that regard. You use their sacrifice as an argument, yet dismiss all other sacrifices that weren't made in the name of Jesus, even though there were way more numerous. What you say sounds more like excuses to convince yourself of what you were already lead to believe since you were a child than convincing arguments that you could present to anyone else in a debate. They're weak and you have a hard time backing them up.
Let's say Jesus had the Spirit in him, yet his views differed from the Bible of the time. It was clearly written that whores should be stoned to death, yet He opposed the practice. By your logic, Jesus couldn't possibly have had a Spirit in him.
The woman caught in her adultery was a trap set by the Pharisees. If Jesus had said, "Stone her," they would have brought it to the Romans, who would have had a problem, killing him before his work was done. If on the other hand, He had said, "Free her," they would have accused Him of rejecting the Law of Moses.
His approach was this: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." In other words, "Go ahead and stone her, but be ready to be stoned for your own transgressions." He then started writing said transgressions on the ground in the dust where they could read it anonymously and walk away, letting the whole thing blow away afterword. Jesus did not condone her sin, but forgave her, eventually paying her punishment himself.
6165861
Going back to the original post, I believe we are called to be "Salt of the Earth," meaning that we are supposed to do our best to preserve the world from the work of the enemy.
6168394
I agree there are some, but it’s far less of a problem than the Muslim terrorists right now. Good point though tips hat
6168427
Unless they were wrong, how do you know they weren’t mistaken? I can give you confirmed examples of people in all walks of life thinking they saw something that they didn’t actually see. Optical illusions, stage magicians, confirmation bias, there are tons of reasons why human memory is not considered a reliable form of evidence. Can you give me a confirmed example of someone rising from the dead, just so that we have some precedence?
...what?
The events in question are described by the writings. The only record we have of the alleged events are the writings themselves. Of course your version of the events match the writings, how could they not? The question is, how do we know these written records are accurate and not just myths and legends that have been embellished over time? You can’t just assert that the writings match the events, that is what I’m asking for proof of. Please demonstrate to me how you came to the conclusion that the events described are ‘so close to the writing’.
I am also unsure how it could be tested. That’s why I’m an atheist. Why on earth would you believe something that you can’t test to make sure it’s real? That makes no sense to me. I’d love it if it was true, I’d love to be able to see my Grandma again someday. I want that to be true so badly that it hurts. My feelings are not evidence. I think that this point is the source of our differing world views. I actually care if my beliefs are real and so I expect them to be testable and tested, it seems that you don’t.
I’m wondering what exactly you mean by ‘nudged’, but I’m more interested in your admission that it could be a coincidence. How do we tell the difference between Fred who came to believe in the existence and power of the Hindu gods ‘by coincidence’ and Charlie who became a Christian ‘by Holy Spirit guidance’?
Really? What happens when the word of god contradicts itself? What happens when the word of god isn’t the word of god? What happens when the Holy Spirit within yourself contradicts the word of god? (I’m guessing you don’t condone slavery?)
More importantly, how do we even know the bible is the word of god? For that to be true there has to be a god to give the word in the first place, and that hasn’t been demonstrated yet. This is another circular argument on your part.
Not important? Are you serious?
First of all, my question was how do we identify when the Holy Spirit is actually in/guiding someone VS someone is simply imagining it and actually being influenced by natural variables. I ask this question because if there is no way to differentiate then there is no way to confirm that the Holy Spirit in your life isn’t just your imagination. If it’s possible that it’s just your imagination and it cannot be shown to be real then it cannot serve as evidence for god and your whole belief system falls apart (unless you have other evidence).
Second of all, wars are fought over these differing interpretations that you so casually dismiss. People die. According to the opinions of many of the different interpretation camps, many people are being tortured forever because they interpreted the bible wrong. As The Ascendant pointed out, there are Christian terrorists groups out there killing people because of doctrinal disagreements. I can say that conflicting interpretations don’t matter because as an atheist I withhold belief that any book was written by the perfect creator of the universe. I don’t understand how someone that believes their book was divinely inspired could say such a thing.
I was going to mention UFO sightings but Bad Dragon beat me to it (good job!). He also responded to this line so I’ll leave it alone.
My core question is this: without being circular, is there any proof at all that your god exists? Is there any good reason to believe the bible is special? I want to know because it any of it is true then IMHO it is of ultimate importance for all of us to know right away.
6168623
I know it's a little out of context, but there is a
quote from Star Trek DS9 that sums it up nicely
That said, I believe all we can do sometimes is be a good example to those around us. There are countries where indoctrating others is illegal. Missionaries going there may just live according to their faith and attract questions from their neighbors and witness without words.
6168430
My question was more about the existance of the Holy Spirit then how to resolve doctrinal issues. If there is no Holy Spirit then there are no issues with the many biblical contradictions because the bible is just an interesting ancient collection of myths and philosophy. Did Andrea Yates have the Holy Spirit in her when she drowned her children? She claims that she did. How do we tell? If we can’t tell, the that’s a huge stumbling block to accepting idea that there is a real god.
This does not help at all. If I plant a bunch of seeds then there is going to be a best line and there is going to be a worst line and some in the middle. How did you (or she) determine that the rate of plant growth was influenced by god and not just random chance? It’s the exact same issue as before.
If I have a head ach and I pray for it to go away and it does, was it the prayer? Do headaches sometimes go away on their own?
How do you demonstrate supernatural causation?
6168642
I am also a trekie, so I am happy to go there. Kira was using the word ‘Faith’ in a different context. She was referring to trust, like I have faith in my girlfriend or my car. If Odo asked ‘why do you believe the Prophets exist’ she would not have said ‘faith’, she would have given the evidence (Orbs, prophecy that actually came true, the worm hole, the prophets themselves possessing her at one point, an entire fleet of Jem Hardar ships disappearing, a Bajoran being pulled from the far past into the present then being returned to the past, etc...).
In real life when someone gives faith as a reason for belief, they are using it in the other context where it means ‘believing without evidence or in spite of evidence to the contrary’.
To finish with, I’ll also quote Star Trek to sum myself up:
6168642
I missed this the first time. So you are admitting that what missionary’s do is indoctrination? Fascinating.
6168672
I will admit I was unclear in the intent of my post. Thanks for calling me out on it. "Indoctrination" was from the point of view of the local government, spacifficly any religion not the enforced by the government.
6168650
One of the things we are warned against are false teachers. I don't remember the text verbatim, but for every claim someone makes, do a consistently check before accepting it as fact. Someone preaching hate for one another and claiming the Holy Spirit is in them is in contradiction lying.
P.S. Has this thread swirved off topic? Should someone make a new one to continue the discussion?
6168769
So you say, but someone else can walk up and say something different. I’m not asking what you think the Holy Spirit says, I’m asking how we can know the Holy Spirit exists in the first place. If you point to the bible then my next question is why should we pay attention to the bible. If next you say god or the Holy Spirit then you loose me because that’s circular.
Meh, I think he got his answer and even though the thread has evolved, it’s still not too large and it hasn’t spread into multiple unrelated convos. I am down for whatever tho.
Consider this:
Was Jesus preaching hate here? Does that mean he was being contradictory or was he simply devoid of the Holy Spirit at the time? These are kind of rhetorical questions so don’t worry about answering them if you don’t want to. I’m more interested in hearing about the method you used to detect the Holy Spirit.
6168816
"Hate" in the original language and context was more like "love less than." Translation is tricky when languages are not 1:1. Take the "inn" [greek: kataluma] Joseph and Mary found full in the book of Luke for example. Kataluma is also translated as "upper room" where the Last Supper took place. Now Luke was an educated man. He would know the difference between a spare room and a 1st century hotel. I could go on about the non-Biblical embellishments to the Christmas story being introduced by a poorly researched historical fiction written 200 years later, but I can stop there.
As for detecting the Holy Spirit, it's kind of like the wind moving treetops back and forth. You don't see the wind, but you know its real because you see it's effects. Similarly to the Spirit, one can see it's work in people's lives. Personally, I've noticed I tend to be quicker to anger when I forget morning devotional.
6168908
I accept your explanation of hate, like I said it really doesn’t matter. Until there is a good reason to I’m not going to give the words of the bible any special creedence just because they are from the bible. I apply the same skepticism to every other book, Holy or not. There are other Christians that do treat the bibles words as divinely inspired and some would disagree with you.
Sure, and if someone didn’t believe in the wind at all and thought that trees moving could be explained by squirrels and raccoons then we could prove the winds existence by building a wind mill, or isolating some trees and keeping animals away, or any number of other things. Wind can’t be seen, but it is demonstrated empirically.
If a tree is moving we can determine if it’s an animal or the wind by investigating. How do you tell the difference between someone that is simply deluding themselves, someone that is benefiting from some natural empowering or calming thoughts, and someone that is actually being touched by the supernatural Holy Spirit?
Great, your religious ritual helps to calm and centre you. So does smoking weed, meditation, and countless other rituals. How do we empirically determine that your ‘morning devotional’ is any different from the other methods of changing one’s brain state?
6168469
I haven't seen any others who claim they've seen God Himself
Jesus is God. So it is perfectly fine that He gave us new rules to follow in place of the OT laws.
6168623
I think there are too many of them for it to be some sort of illusion. many different people saw him at different times. To large to be a coincidence.
Nah, Jesus isn't here anymore to raise them.
We can't know for sure. There is certainly an element of faith in it.
The same one who claims to have witnessed the event also claims to be an author in certain letters/books. Paul writes and claims to have seen Jesus resurrected. Either he was lying about seeing Jesus, or someone else was lying about being Paul. Either way, these writings/teachings would still put the individual in danger. Early Christians were surrounded by Jews and Pagans that would kill them for evangelizing. So why would they write if they knew they were lying?
I can't prove it objectively, but personally, I know it to be true and have all the evidence I need. Much comes from faith and the Spirit.
By the Holy Spirit. Leading me away from sin when I was more or less ok with it.
Charlie will experience a great change to his life and personality. He will also strive to do things that are inherently good.
Many of these come from translation errors. All can be explained.
If you believe that some of it is the Word of God, you have to believe that all of it is. The Bible itself claims to be the Word.
The Bible doesn't command slavery. It simply provides regulations and instructions for it. Considering slavery has been around for forever, it makes sense that the Bible would address it.
Another thing we take on faith
It is evidence for those that know Him.
In terms of the the most important issue (salvation) it is not important. All core beliefs have only one interpretation.
There is nothing I can give that would objectively prove Christianity. Faith is required. I can give reasons why Christianity is compelling, but at the end of the day a leap of faith is still needed.
In the end, I believe God wants each person to choose Him out of love, not out of force; wether through indisputable reason, brute force, legal action, or any other method; so He will always leave just enough room for doubt. If He forced us to believe in Him, He would be destroying the very thing I believe He created sentient beings for: free will.
6168954
Long story short, you rely on faith when logic and reason can’t help you reach your beliefs. You defined faith earlier as ‘belief with action’. So you believe because you believe, more circular reasoning.
Unlike you I actually care if my beliefs are true or not. That’s why I don’t believe anything on faith. Faith is not a reliable path to truth. Faith is the reason you give for belief when you have no evidence. It is making yourself believe something without or in spite of evidence to the contrary. It is literally make believe.
I do appreciate your honesty and the effort you put into answering my questions. Hopefully you will take the time to re-read through this thread and see the issues with your reasoning. You don’t have to share your thoughts with me, just reflect on them in private.
One more question if you’re up to it: If it turned out that there was no god or afterlife would you want to know, or is it more important for you that your beliefs are comforting?
6169017
Cool story bro, but you’re missing the mark. I am not convinced there is a god that exists. How can anyone choose something that they think is fake? It’s like me trying to choose House as my Doctor, he’s a fictional character so I’m either trying to be funny or I’m delusional. First one needs to know something is an option before choosing it.
If there was a god then he could reveal himself to the world in a way that would leave no doubt that he exists and what his characteristcs are (so that we know which religion we should be following). We would still then have a choice to worship him and follow his rules.
Forcing us to believe doesn’t affect free will* at all, you are categorically wrong when you try and claim that. It’s just your mind doing back flips trying to square your own beliefs with the lack of evidence in reality.
Why do you believe that? How did you determine that this is most likely to be true? What method did you use, if it’s a reliable method then we can use it for other things and when anyone applies it to these questions they should come to the same conclusion you did. The fact that there’s hundreds of different religions and hundreds of denominations within those religions means that no one else is using the same method as you, or there is no objective truth to the claims of religion. I’m interested in what’s actually true not just your personal opinion, if you can’t show it then you don’t know it.
*if you dont agree let me know, I can prove this very easily.
6169130
If science and reason are the only means of knowing anything for certain, then can you provide scientific proof for the reliability of human reason without circularly depending on human reason to provide that proof?
I suppose you have a point there with the free will topic. Still, conversion in such circumstances would be out of fear, not of love. Understanding the Great Controversy can explain a lot of questions, like, "Why would a loving God let bad things happen to good people?"
As for the topic of faith, there is a video I saw once that covers how belief in science requires faith as well. It was done in response to a flame war over one of their previous videos, but it has a reasonable explanation of faith from a scientific point of view.
If I might ask, what makes you sure in your belief in the axioms of science? A sermon my pastor gave about a year ago was about how God revealed new truths about himself as His people could accept them. He also pointed out that we are to keep digging for new truths, just like in science.
There is also the thought experiment of the ancester simulation. As computers get better and better, we will be able to simulate more and more of the universe to a greater degree of precision. Given this, one of three things must happen...
1. We will destroy ourselves before we reach that point.
2. We will lose all interest by the time we reach that point.
3. We are already living in a recursive ancestor simulation.
One can assume there is no higher power, just random chance in the face of the second law of thermodynamics. We can eliminate the first and second arguments through the same logic of [near] infinite tries. We are then left with the conclusion that we are in such a simulation. What now are we to call the people/things running the simulation we are in?
Now, I haven't heard of any religion venerating our descendants, nor do I have faith in my own argument. Let's say we find universe can't support the ability to simulate itself.
I suppose faith can be likened unto the stock market. A nondescript guy says to invest in QWERTY stock. QWERTY hasn't done well in the past, but this guy has a history of being dead right every time if you bother to look him up. Do you trust him?
P.S. shouldn't it be about time for a second page? (Bonus points if this post is the one)
P.P.S. Sorry if I asked too many hanging questions.