On Star Wars · 4:40pm Dec 21st, 2019
Okay, so the Saga has officially ended. For better or for worse, the Skywalker Saga has finally come to a close. Rey has brought peace to the galaxy, and Palpatine is finally dead. Deader than dead. ...Unless he's got some other clone waltzing about that nobody knows about. It wouldn't surprise me knowing him.
Now, I may sound a bit preachy here but the fanbase is a mess. And I think I know why. Personally, I believe the underlying problem with the fanbase is the fanbase itself. Yes, the Last Jedi divided the fanbase but for everyone who hates it, there's someone else who loves it. I liked it, and yes I know I'm putting a massive ass target on my back for saying that. But it was so different, compared to Awakens who played it too safe. Played to nostalgia too much.
Those kids cosplaying as Finn and Rey, in ten years' time this will be the Star Wars they'll be talking about. Ten years ago it was the prequels people fell in love with or the Clone Wars and now it's the Sequels. Every new generation brings new fans, sometimes I feel we as a fanbase forget that and only focus on what we like. So really, anyone who says that the Sequels shouldn't exist, please kindly do remember that your opinion isn't the only one that matters here. The Fandom Menace is a term that exists for a reason sadly.
Actually, when I saw the first trailers for Awakens a couple of years ago, my eyes practically lit up. Really, they did. I hadn't grown up with the movies like some of you have, really. I saw them on VHS at times, but they weren't my childhood. The Force Unleashed came along, I adored that as well, non-canon as it now is. Clone Wars came along, and I fell in love with that. When that went off the air, I needed something to get my Star Wars fix. The Sequels were my fix for me. Now, they're not my favorite franchise in the world film-wise -Go go Godzilla!- but they're big goofy fun, with a little bit of political commentary at times. It's science fiction people, it's meant to be above all else, fun.
So really, can we all just get along for a few moments, or at least respect each other's tastes? We're all fans here. From this...
...to this.
Well said my dude (Currently typing this from outside the women's restroom at the movies...as much as I hate to leave TRoS...nature called and I had to answer. Heading back in now)
5172827
Well, someone has to given it's hard to speak about the new trilogy without being crucified. Also, enjoy the movie!
My introduction to Star Wars was, interesting I believe. I got in through the prequel trilogy of all things. The first ever Star Wars episode I saw was episode 1 The Phantom Menace. And I adored it. I saw the episodes in chronological order I loved it as a kid. I was born in 2004, so I got to experience in the best TV of My Life I grew up on everything from The Justice League animated series, Batman the Animated Series, and I was lucky enough to catch the Clone Wars in its heyday. I yeah. Star Wars was my childhood. I caught Force awakens in theaters, as well as the Last Jedi. Star Wars is a huge part of me, sigh, as much as DC, Marvel, Doctor Who, and Star Trek. Honestly I'm still trying to come to grips with this coming to a close kid but that's not the point here the point is I grew up loving all aspects of Star Wars. And I will still watch whatever new Star Wars comes out, be it good or bad. I know but I don't know what I will do to get my stars fix if it really does end end. Maybe I'll check out Legends........
5172830
Fair warning if you go into Legends. It's not all Thrawn and Knights of the Old Republic. There's some pretty stupid stuff in there as well, like the Vong who are more out of a bad fanfic than anything else.
5172832
I....actually like what I have heard about the Vong. But that's me. But thanks for the warning!
I could make a whole pseudo-essay on why I don't like the new trilogy, but you're right. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that I'm going to bash somebody over the head for not agreeing with me.
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5172838
See, I know exactly what the problem is. Get me ten fans, or twenty who agree on what the Force is. Then put them in the same room as another twenty who think they know what the Force is. Thing is, you can't please everyone in this fanbase, as everyone has their own idea of what Star Wars should be.
5172832
The one bit of EU material I've ever read was a guide on Star Wars ships that was made before the Disney retcon, and it had some Yuzhaan-Vong vessels in it. I remember I was simultaneously fascinated and freaked out by their bio-engineered ships, and I wondered what they actually looked like.
Then I actually found some pictures of them a little while back, and I was like, "Oh. They're space orcs." Not gonna lie, I was pretty disappointed.
5172841
Also, they can't be harmed by Lightsabers no matter what. See, bad fanfiction.
As someone who doesn’t like the sequel saga I think I can explain why the fans revolted. One TFA was a carbon copy of episode 4, we already had a copy in episode one so this was an unneeded repeat. Two fans didn’t like how so much came so easy to Ray, from flying the Falcon, to Force abilities, to finally Lightsaber abilities. We felt it was a good starting point but wanted to see the characters grow and show some uniqueness.
In TLJ we had the director completely throw out the plan and do what he wanted. He assassinated the character of Luke Skywalker by turning a man who was still believed that there was good in his father into a bitter old man. The Luke we saw at the end of episode 6 would have never tried to kill his nephew. The way legacy characters like Ackbar was treated was insulting to just unceremoniously kill him off. If Holdo thought there was a traitor on board that should have been the subplot instead of Cato Bright. Instead we got a side mission that was completely pointless and actually hurt the Resistance. Every male in this movie made dumb choices and the females had to come in and save the day. Ray once again is displaying things with out any explanation. I will skip over the Leia pulling a Mary Poppens thing. The whole Ray’s parents bit was complete and utter trash as any person who understands narrative knows that she comes from someone important because that was called attention to her abandonment. The director of this move just wanted to piss people off, he was a poor choice who was given too much free rein and no oversight.
Now onto ROS. At this point Disney knows they screwed up big time. They had to spend time to fix mistakes made in the previous film to get it to a somewhat believable end. The fans who have been complaining point out that Ray is finally given some training and an explanation of why she seems so powerful but it feels like she is standing on their shoulders and not on her own. These people feel that she has just been given everything and did not earn any of it. I will not talk much about this movie as I don’t want to spoil it for people and I am on my phone currently and don’t have the time to spoiler tag stuff and do any editing.
5172844
...yeah, that just sounds stupid. Now maybe if they were just harder to kill with a lightsaber I could buy it, but complete imperviousness?
5172858
I concur with all of this. In addition, I just feel like the general state of affairs at the start of the sequel trilogy renders everything that the characters from the OT went through for naught. The fall of the Empire? The death of Palpatine? The redemption of Anakin Skywalker? Luke becoming the first of a new generation of Jedi? Han and Leia falling in love? The rise of a better and smarter Republic? Forget it. 'Cause everything goes right back around to the way it was before, pretty much.
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5172858
If I may, I will debate against this as well, on a few select points anyways.
Okay, Rey. Now she's grown up on a junk world as a scavenger with the legends of the Force as bedtime stories practically. She's curious and inquisitive by nature, she's had to figure out the skills to survive on Jakku her whole life, for seventeen years more or less. Compare and contrast with Luke, who was a farm boy well cared for by his adoptive family. So her starting to pick things up seemingly naturally, well it's a byproduct of her upbringing. So obviously Rey would figure out how to fix things like the Falcon or learn a few force abilities. Also, her Kylo Ren duel? She really wasn't winning right up till the end, hell Kylo wasn't even trying to kill her arguably. He was trying to turn her. Plus, it didn't help Kylo's odds that he got hit by a bowcaster bolt and Finn got a few licks in as well.
Maybe, but I will go out on a limb here and say that unlike Legends Luke who had to be Jesus practically and always in the right TLJ Luke was allowed to be a human being. He felt he failed, so he came to that planet to die. Note the sunken X-Wing. He also had a moment of weakness with Kylo, he sensed the dark in him and was afraid. He tried to kill him, yes, but the most important thing was he didn't go through with it.
(Plus, I totes headcanon Mara Jade was still his wife here and she died and that didn't really help matters.)
Thing was, Holdo have every reason to think there was a traitor on board and why would she, a high ranking military general speak to a demoted fighter pilot? Plus, as it turns out all of those bombers were under her command. She lost friends to Poe's little stunt. Also, here's the thing. What I think they were trying to do with Holdo and Poe was make Poe sympathetic in his plight and Holdo not so much but... They just did it a little too well perhaps. Though I will sorta agree with you on Ackbar and Canto Bright.
Now, while I do know the whole Rey linage thanks to Rise spoilers, it still makes this metaphorically true. And in a way, I don't mind the fact that her parents were basically scumbags. In Rey's flashback in TFA you can see her desperately pleading and then trying to lie to herself that they would come back. Plus, it makes a great twist that she's basically nobody coming from nobody important and in a way Rise still carries this. They never said anything about her grandparents after all...
I usually stay out of these fanbase wars, but all I'll say is that all of this Star Wars talk got me rewatching the Clone Wars series and boy howdy, it's still just as good with age!
5172880
As for Ray’s grandparents I was long aware, about the time of TLJ, that this was a possible solution. My beef is by it being now true it is no longer the Skywalker saga but this family.
Now if she had been the illegitimate daughter of Luke that could have been interesting and keeping with the theme of this family. My idea was that Luke had a serious relationship with a women and once she realized she was pregnant she abandoned Luke and didn't tell him about their child or he became aware and she choose to run. Luke having a new academy to run could not chase after her. So Mom and step dad are the monsters here. That would explain why Han was so willing to help her out of the blue and why he looked like a deer in the headlights when Maz asked about her. That information needs to be kept secret.
As for Poe’s stunt this is not the early 90’s and Bart Simpson wants his prank back. That stunt was completely stupid. An interesting fact it has been confirmed that BB-8 got the line “I’ve got a bad feeling about this.” It was done right at the beginning of the film and sums up the whole first act.
Recently the YouTube channel Midnights Edge did a good retrospective on the sequel saga and it is worth the watch.
5172880
I can buy Rey picking up on how to pilot the Falcon. The Force stuff I have a little more time digesting. Doesn't that stuff take a while to figure out? And I thought I read somewhere that lightsabers are basically weightless, and it takes someone with good Force sensitivity to safely wield one. Which ends up raising more questions for how Finn was able to use it...
I don't remember, did they actually say that in the movie?
5172940
Again, Rey had grown up with these legends really. It is entirely possible she remembered how the Force worked from said legends. As for Finn, it is entirely possible he has some sensitivity, maybe not enough for Jedi training but some at the very least.
They about said as much. Somehow Snoke's ship tracked them through hyperspace, something that should not be possible so he would have had to know where they were going. It is a logical assumption to think he has someone on board leaking information. Hell, the Resistance would probably suspect moles even before this for obvious reasons.
5172914
I didn't say it was smart, I was just pointing out Holdo's point of view on the matter. Fleetkillers the battlecruisers may have been, but going after them with slow-moving bombers -really, what happened to the Y-Wings?- that made huge targets was stupid. And yet it fits Poe, he's a good pilot no denying that but he's also sorta reckless.
Also, on Luke if I may, I think it was possible he may have had PTSD. Recall his first real experience with a powerful dark side user in Palpatine. He saw his father killed, and he himself was shocked nearly to death. Something like that doesn't just go away. Maybe it carried on into the years leading up to Ben's massacre.
5172955
Sorry, but I still don't quite buy that, at least not entirely. Maybe they could have started off her intro in TFA by establishing that she's Force sensitive, and maybe she's got some of those legends stowed away in her AT-AT. Instead of her wearing that X-Wing helmet like a pair of sunglasses, we could have a scene of her maybe practicing lifting small trinkets in her home with it. Sort of a Force exercise, if you will. Kind of show that she's self-taught to a point. But not like where she has everything all at once.
While it's an interesting idea, without some sort of confirmation from the films (and supplementary materials aren't really a solid foundation to go on, no matter how juicy they may be), we'll just have to assume that he's not and he didn't slice his own shoulders off through sheer dumb luck.
5172958
But that is the problem with Poe’s actions. He was established at the beginning of TFA to be an intelligent officer. Why else would Leia trust him on such an important mission to retrieve information about where her brother was hiding? No the director/writer of TLJ hacked apart the plot with no care to established or presumed lore of the characters. Poe was established as a competent leader who led his own squadron and was trusted by Leia. What we got at the beginning of TLJ was a drunken frat boy who thinks his plan is the best. If consistent writing had characterization had been applied Poe never would have pulled that stunt. We should presume that Poe has at least received some form of officer training that would have prevented what happened but the writer couldn't be bothered to have a basic understanding of what a character of his standing would know.
To use an example, in the movie Top Gun it was established by one character that Maverick should be the leader of his squadron. However due to his reckless stunts he was never elevated to that position. Until his squadron leader lost his edge Maverick was never going to get higher then he was. That is why he was sent to Top Gun he was sent to replace his squadron commander who was now unable to perform. It was here after his best friend and the person in the plane with him that if they get kicked out it would be bad for his family. Maverick shapes up and becomes the person who now understands what it takes to lead.
5172968
Yeah, I admit presentation is a problem with the films, sometimes it works as in the case of Kylo Ren/Rey round 1... sometimes it doesn't when they fail to set things up properly.
5172975
Okay, fair enough. Even if I admit I'm only conceding the point as I'm not really interested in arguing said point.
5172955
You dont just "remember" how the force works based on legends, despite what the new movie series shows even in its lore force sensitivity isnt that common and it still takes ages to learn to use the force even for a genius and highly gifted person.
Not Reys "Im a Jedi, deal with it!" approach the movies took.
Being able to resist a trained and skilled prodigy like Kylo Ren when he attempted to mindread her and even actually read his mind herself and retained ALL his knowledge for herself to use and explain away all the amazing powers she used afterwards.
5173002
Personally, if you ask me the public perception of Rey became the reality in a lot of people's heads. Now, I don't mind Rey really, but I can sorta see where the other side is coming from. Agree to disagree?
5173011
I dont mind/blame the character. I blame the shoddy writing of said character and a lack of plan form them for the overall story since they rushed it and the 2nd epsiodes script was already being done before the 1st movie was even finished up and edited. Didnt the actors themsevles recently admitt that the movies plot was terrible?
Plus the declarations by Kenedy and
AbramsJohnson about how making movies for the fans of said movies is not someting they will do and other such statements.I can't say I'll bother with the other side of the SW fanbase after they coming after Legends/EU fans after TLJ and savagely defended the huge mess that was TLJ.
Personally I just want a continuation of Legends, one the biggest mistakes Lucasfilm have ever done, it alienated alot of fans who enjoy the stories and hope they be brought into the bigger limelight like the cartoons and video games.
If it weren't for the divide wouldn't be so huge when TLJ axed the fanbase in half.
5173147
Well, the Legends Lovers aren't exactly innocent in all this either, given quite a few of them were perfectly willing to attack the fans of the Sequels and lump them all in the same boat and all them SJWs and the like.
Well, for the record, I'm with you, mate
Whether you liked it or not, the saga coming to a close will mean good things for the franchise.
Now that they've practically broken the box office this year, Disney will hopefully feel its the proper time to branch out with side-stuff that caters to niche crowds like The Mandalorian or the spin-offs instead of trying to appeal to the biggest possible audience which can tie a film and its writers down nowadays.
If I could put a phrase on the Sequel Trilogy Films it would be.
Episode VII: A Decent Start
Episode VIII: I Like What You're Trying To Do But...
Episode IX: Silly, Wacky Sci-Fi Fun. The End.
I mean, I have what I enjoy already and that's enough for me, but I'm still looking forward to seeing what else comes out of Star Wars.
I've been a fan of Star Wars for a long time and nothing Disney, Lucas or the Fanbase does will ever ruin it for me.
5173267
From the very few notable things that Legend fandom did, it found out it was trolls stoking the flames and using notable Legends group names.
If there others I would of heard about it by then.
5173267
I find it odd that the first sequel trilogy went JJ --> Rian --> JJ, yet there's a rumored "Rian Johnson trilogy" on the horizon. Has Disney realized what a horrible idea it is to have more than one head of a trilogy? Everything JJ set up, Rian undid. And everything Rian undid, JJ un-undid. As a result, the trilogy feels... meh. For a while there, the top voted comment on one of the RoS trailers was "I have no idea what this trilogy is about." Well, it's about the Resistance vs the First Ord--aaaand Snoke's dead. Well, it's about Luke restarting the Jedi Ord--aaaand Luke's dead. Well it's about Rey rising out of obscurit--aaaand Rey wasn't actually born into obscurity at all. I guess you could say it's about Rey becoming a Jedi and overcoming... a generic evil. But for many, that's neither a compelling plot nor a compelling character.
I dunno. The worst day in my life as a Star Wars fan was the day I saw a trailer in my YouTube reccommended for IX and... felt nothing. And that realization hurt like no other hurt I've ever felt. Once I heard about Disney's shady business practices and the names they let the media call us who didn't like VIII, I kinda faded out for a while. It's a bucking disgrace when My Little Pony is kinder to adult male fans than Star Wars is.
But... the Mandalorian is amazing. It has a well-deserved 100% on Rotten Tomatoes, if that has any sway for you. And at Barnes and Noble the other day I picked up the Republic Commando trilogy to read (which doesn't exist according to Kathleen Kennedy), so I'm not done with Star Wars by far. And that despite Disney's apparent best efforts.
I have spoken.
5173455
The one valid point I will admit was Rian being chosen after JJ and then going right back to JJ was a bad move. Let the man do his trilogy okay? Now, Disney's behavior is just hearsay.
70% of the time these sources claim they let Rian or whoever call fans haters of TLJ in the media, it's garbage. Name your sources, do please. If they're anonymous or something like EckhartsLadder get some new ones.
I was going through and closing some of my tabs, and apparently I forgot to hit "post comment." Sorry for the late reply.
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Sources (in approximately decreasing order of views from me):
Clownfish TV (reads said fandom smear articles on their channel and picks them apart; my main source; former bronies),
Overlord DVD aka Doomcock (main YouTube distributer of the plot leaks which turned out to be true),
YellowFlash 2 (also reads said smear pieces of the fandom on his channel),
WorldClassBullshitters (documents poor traffic of Star Wars toys off the shelves of retail stores and covers fandom topics; posts somewhat infrequently),
ThatUmbrellaGuy (also shows articles he reports on on his channel),
Mike Zeroh (recently came out against The Last Jedi and Disney after being personally mocked by Rian Johnson, et. al. for over a year)
Through most if not all of these content creators, I have access to primary sources of news through the lens of fandom, and the things those articles say about us you wouldn't believe, I can tell. Not to say there isn't positivity to be had as well; John Boyega, Finn's actor, was pleasantly surprised when his interactions with fans were quite positive. He was met with sympathy when he voiced his concerns (Clownfish TV) that his character was being sidelined, and immediately after that, he came out publicly against The Last Jedi and Rian Johnson. While I do admit that it is speculation, I have to wonder if the two incidents are related. I believe I remember a quote from him something to the tune of "I had no idea the fans felt that way about my character." And why would he? For over a year, the narrative from the mainstream media has been that the entirety of us Star Wars fans keep company with the trolls that drove Kelly Marie Tran (Rose's actress) off Instagram.
Now I have nothing against you as a person, and I know you are many things you probably have to defend somewhat frequently--a TLJ fan, a brony, an anime fan--and I definitely don't want to put you in a position where you feel you have to do that, especially not on your own blog. I'll let you have the final word on this topic because, and I hate to say this, I want Star Wars to be over. It's true, there is a lot of negativity going around right now, and that gets to a person. So I'll keep my Mandalorian and my Rogue One and my Republic Commando and everything else I've grown up with, but feeling the need to defend one's views at every turn can strengthen at first, but will inevitably become tiring. Many harsh words have come from such "debates," and I do not wish this post to descend into such.
So I will end with this: You are a fan. I am a fan. This is the way.
5174194
As soon as you said Clownfish TV I burst out laughing. I'm sorry, but there's no other 'source' that's been aptly named. They're bullshit. Also, if someone like Mike was personally humiliated by Disney, I'd think we'd be hearing about it on the five o clock news. But yes, we are fans and the fact that the Star Wars fanbase is divided this badly is.... sad.
I mean, I want to talk about the Sequel Trilogy to no end, and such but generally, I fear I'll get crucified.
The thing is, the most dangerous thing to the Star Wars fanbase.... is the fanbase itself.
5174195
That was an extremely fast reply, so I'll assume you didn't read. I went to Clownfish TV's channel, grabbed one of their recent Star Wars videos, and opened the description. Here's Clownfish TV's sources for that video:
Cinemablend 1
Cinemablend 2
Screenrant
BuzzFeed News
Cinemablend 3
And from another video:
AVClub 1
AVClub 2
Deadline.com
Comicbook.com
And just because I mentioned it, let's grab Clownfish's links from a video where they talk about the anti-fandom media directly.
Wall Street Journal -- Bob Iger is quoted as wanting to be "unburdened" by fans
Comicbook.com -- Kennedy explains why Palpatine was in the teaser trailers, etc.; used as an opener for the video
Vocal Media -- An interesting addition on Clownfish's part; a defense of fans and fandom. I'd have to rewatch the video to see how they used quotes from it.
MovieWeb -- Rian Johnson's personal attack of YouTuber and Disney Star Wars supporter (until very recently) Mike Zeroh
So yeah. A pretty good spread of primary and secondary news sources. I know I said I wouldn't say any more on the below topics, but this is a much deeper issue. This is just me opening up the video description and grabbing links. I don't use the actual primary sources like Comicbook.com or Cinemablend or Wall Street Journal simply because with videos, I can do other stuff while it plays in the background. Also, seems like every movie these days has an enormous fan/critic split. I'll get my "news, views, and rants" (as Clownfish TV says) from a fellow fan, thank you very much.
If you wish to do further reading into this topic, read anything Scott Mendelson writes about Star Wars fans over on Forbes. Hint: He doesn't like us.
Now, I'm off to listen to the Shadiversity review of the movie, so don't expect a reply within the hour.
5174223
Somehow I've given up caring, as A, you've missed the point of this entire post, and B, arguing with you is going to go nowhere.