Writing one-sided Fluttercord · 2:22pm Dec 18th, 2014
I very much enjoy reading fluff as much as the next person, but when I write these two I am much more interested in the dynamics of what friendship vs. romantic love means, so I write it as one sided from Discord's point of view.
Discord has developing feelings for Fluttershy, and he's not entirely sure how to handle this development. For one thing, he's had relationships before, and loved people romantically before, but none of those people were "friends" exactly. They were either purely a good time, a way for someone to show their appreciation for something he did (such as his fling with Baast) or someone wanted something from him but gave little in return (his relationship with Xolotl). Fluttershy genuinely cares for him, offers him her friendship freely and even likes some aspects of his chaos. Like others before her, he views her as a potential romantic and sexual partner, but paradoxically it is exactly the fact that Fluttershy is his friend that he is so afraid of approaching her as such. If he loses her friendship, or disappoints her in some way he worries he will have nothing, and a romantic relationship with her would be just like all the other ones he's had in the past. A good time, a good feeling but ultimately somehow lacking, because when that person is gone there is nothing left.
He's pretty terrified of the whole thing, basically. Despite the fact that Discord is thousands of years old (or more) he's got the emotional stability of a teenager, or at the very least someone in their early twenties. He knows how obsessed with a good feeling he can become, and he also know that makes him vulnerable. Being a close to all-powerful being, the last thing you want is to expose your soft underbelly.
Because she is his friend and genuinely cares about him, he wants her above else, to be happy.
He would likely be horribly jealous if she took another romantic partner, but that would not be because he begrudged Fluttershy happiness, nor would he take it out on her. (Though woe betide her suitors.)
It would be more that Discord is a horribly insecure person, and an insecure person who doesn't want anyone else to know how insecure he is. We've already seen how insecure he was about Twilight not wanting to spend the day with him as a friend.
Fluttershy may or may not return his feelings.(I'm thinking more likely "not" in this case, simply because she is oblivious to it.)
I'm really hoping no one starts whining about the "friend zone" as I'm writing this story, because if you genuinely love and care about someone, you will be happy to be their friend regardless of what happens. Yes, it sucks and hurts when romantic feelings are not returned, but if your reaction is act like everything between you both is over, perhaps you never really saw that person as a friend to begin with. Exhibit A.
And I speak of experience because I have been the person who loved someone dearly, and it didn't work out the way I hoped it would but we are still friends, and I'm glad we are, because now I'm over the whole thing and I've got this awesome dude I can talk to about anything precisely because he's now one of my best buds.
That's why I enjoy writing about Discord and Fluttershy as friends, because even though there might be some feelings there (especially on Discord's side. Hell, he practically SQUEED when he mentioned Fluttershy to Tirek) ultimately what they have is a strong bond that would be there with or without the romantic feelings.
I essentially depict this situation in Divine Jealousy and the Voice of Reason. Here, the problem is not so much that Fluttershy would reject Discord if he courted her, but rather that it didn't occur to Discord to actually court her: he just assumed that her shyness meant that he had no real competition (*) because she wouldn't court anypony else and would avoid anypony else who courted her. In consequence, Discord was unpleasantly surprised when he found Fluttershy was having an affair with Bulk Biceps.
This doesn't mean that Discord's suit is hopeless, of course. What it does mean is that he can't simply assume that he's the only one to find a supermodel-beautiful, extremely good nascent goddess attractive. Go figure.
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(*) He didn't consider Rainbow Dash "competition," despite the fact that she was the Pony Rainbow Dash most loved in the entire world and that in the past they had been lovers. This is an extremely {and obnoxiously) male attitude.
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I must start reading Divine Jealousy and the Voice of Reason when I get home!
My version of Discord does stupid things because he doesn't even believe Fluttershy would want him, so he essentially makes choices that he will later on partly regret (not going into too much detail here as it's kind of a spoiler for what I'm writing).
He's also the spirit of chaos, so his emotions with regards to attraction to people are tumultuous. I don't think Discord could be calm and logical in love. He would either break hearts or get his broken badly, neither of which he is prepared to do when it comes to Fluttershy because here's this gorgeous, kind girl who doesn't mind him in her life, and he doesn't want to screw it up.
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I hope you do -- it's as yet unfinished, but it's got some very nice chapters. And I suspect I'd find your comments interesting.
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I hope my comments weren't too brief. I love it when people write me long comments, but I seem to suck at doing the same. It's partly mental exhaustion and partly because I worry I've missed something or said something damn obvious.
And here I am with insomnia...
Ah, I need to put my two cents in, if you do not mind.
I am guessing perhaps you've gotten many comments on this, and thus this post. I hope it doesn't mean you're afraid you'll lose readers for it being one-sided?
Though I understand if that's a concern. Let's face it...A lot of us are romance hogs that stuff ourselves with fluff to fill up the dark void of no romance in our own lives. *cough*ormaybeIamjusttalkingaboutmebecauseIgotNOTHINEVER*cough*
But I'm glad I started reading your stuff, without being concerned on the whole one-sided thing. There's something beautiful about what you're trying to portray here. You're making Fluttershy so important to him that he refuses to risk messing it up, something that he's never tried doing with someone before. That puts her above everyone else he's ever cared about. His partnering with her is a temptation, and it's maybe the first temptation in his life that he doesn't want to succumb to.
Well, I mean, he probably does, but he doesn't want to lose her even more, and there ya go. But then again, I don't really need to tell you what you're doing, you obviously know exactly what you're doing, and you're doing an amazing job of it. I love it.
I myself sometimes feel a little guilty for writing fluff, just because of the fact that Discord and Fluttershy's friendship is a beautiful thing. I was quite sure I would never ship them, once upon a time, and I had been proud of it because it was a way of being sure that friendship could be more important than romance.
But then that darn Season 4 finale ruined me, goodness. It's so funny. It's like when he did his little "Just between the two of us, it's mostly for Fluttershy!" and his little thing the viral world calls a "squee", I started thinking......Okay, that's actually adorable omg but NO. And then Fluttershy started crying, and that showed me that she wasn't just doing it for Tia and his friendship actually MEANT something, and then there was that earlier hint in the series that they wrote freaking letters to each other and she took care of him, so that was more evidence for me on her side. And then Discord pretty much had me on deck with his stupid little sweet moment telling her she was worth sacrificing magic for, and then she had to freaking look for him when they were released from the bubble, and just ugh, I finished the episode and pretty much died, knowing I had a new OTP, one to be obsessed with...And the last time that happened was a very long time ago, but I was obsessed with it still...until I got this new one. NGGGGGGGGGGGGNNNGGG.
So now I just try to make up for it by having Friendship everywhere with the Mane Six and Discord. lol.
But yeah, friendzoning. Pffft. As if. People need to grow up. Friendship is something so powerful that it can save you. It's saved lives. Millions of them. It saved Discord in a lot of ways, so he's trying to save what they have. Get over it, people. I don't know what I'd do without my friends. And I fell for a friend once, but we don't talk much anymore, but that wasn't because I didn't want his friendship anymore. But once upon a time I had told him how I felt, and he didn't stop being my friend. Even though he ended up going back on that in the end (at least, I think he doesn't really want my friendship anymore), I was really happy he didn't stop hanging out with me at the time. It meant a lot. Friendship means a lot. I'd still be that guy's friend today if he had just cared a little more--not love me, but just care.
Wow, I'm ranting. I'm sorry. Wow.
One last thing: I like what you're saying with Fluttershy...That it's not returned because she can't ever see him that way, but just because she's not really aware of it, or not thinking of it. I can see that happening, and as long as she still cares for him, then it's fine. Besides, you can love your friends, so it's not like she doesn't have any sort of love for him. Heck, in her letter she wrote "lots of love" or something or other.
But preserving the friendship...I think it's a great message, and I still adore your story with every fiber of my little being. Keep going friend, keep going.
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I appreciated your comments, and I'm glad you liked my story.
I of course have to write more of it.
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I got the impression that it was more that Discord felt an attraction for Fluttershy, while she hadn't for him not so much because she found him unattractive, but because she didn't realize he could feel for her in those terms. And my experience has been that, when friendship is real, it can develop into romantic love.
2663016 On what terms? Mammoth's story or the show in general? Because that makes sense to me too. And while stories that focus on Discord's looks as a problem don't bother me, it's never something I really focus on. I don't think Fluttershy would ever base love on appearance, and I feel she'd find him handsome because she loves him. That's how it works in my experience. Not only that, but I think Discord likes the way he looks! He loves himself. C:
And yes, I'm all about a real, true blue friendship blossoming into something more. I think it could happen with these two and in real life. It just didn't happen to me in this time. Eh, oh well. Life goes on.
I am just trying to say that I love fluttercord, whether it's friendship or more. C:
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Me too, actually. In many of my main fanon worldlines, they wind up essentially married, with numerous children, and happily roaming the Universe terraforming worlds.
2663114 You write a story on that world and I will devour it so hard.
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Oh I have no problem whatsoever with fluff. I read it myself and it's warm and fuzzy and makes me happy. :)
Exactly, you get it. He's learning a form of restraint which is something that he's never done before. He's seen what happens when he's unrestrained and it's resulted in her tears so he doesn't want to go through that again. Fluttershy confuses and terrifies him in a way, because he's vulnerable as hell around her and Discord HATES being vulnerable, and this may result in some unwise decisions eventually.
I am guessing perhaps you've gotten many comments on this, and thus this post. I hope it doesn't mean you're afraid you'll lose readers for it being one-sided?
It's more that I've seen comments on other people's stories where people complain that "Discord is being friendzoned again" even when the intent of the story isn't romance. This just baffles me. It's a show that has the word "friendship" in the title. What's wrong with friendship?
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Yes, definitely. It's simply because the idea hasn't even occurred to her.
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lol, yes! I think he's actually quite vain in some respects. He thinks highly of himself in terms of looks, even if others might not. Besides, even if he didn't, he'd have the option to changing his appearance to anything he wanted so I can't imagine it worries him much in that regard.
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Yes, more please. :)
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I also find the notion of Friendship and Love as antithetical confusing. While (obviously) one does not romantically-love all one's friends, I have always been more likely to feel romantic attraction for people to whom I felt friendly than to those I did not, and the mentality required to regard Friendship as a reason to avoid Love is baffling. I suspect that people who feel that way see "love" as inherently predatory and combative.
The Equestrian ethos of Harmony, in particular, strikes me as favoring the sort of Love which springs from Friendship, rather than social predation. I'm not saying that all Equestrians put this ideal into practice, but it does seem to be the general tone of their culture.
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Yes, or do not realize that love involves some work and seeing the object of your affection as a real human being with separate thoughts and feelings to your own. It is an (unfortunately) mostly male attitude I've noticed, though I'm sure some women have done it just as badly as well.
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Which is one of the points of "Inspiration Manifestation." At the climax, Rarity needs an honest friend, not someone who will simply smile and nod and agree to whatever she wants. And when she realizes what Spike did to save her, she becomes more affectionate and loyal to him -- a change of attitude which persists into the remainder of Season Four.
Admittedly, the situation is melodramatized by the magic curse, but it's of fundamental importance to any genuine love that one view the beloved first as a friend with an independent personality and goals, rather than just an object of seduction or a source of pleasure.
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Yes, I also love the "Simple Ways" episode, where the message is you can't MAKE someone love you, and if you need to change your entire persona drastically in order to do so then it really isn't worth it. So glad to finally see that being put out there to...well I was going to say kids, but to EVERYONE really, as there are adults that still haven't grasped this.
As a side note, I ADORE the fact that Rarity exists. I was never a girly girl (in fact, I'm not sure I even identify completely as a "girl") but the fact that she's there, and she's girly and that's OKAY pleases me greatly, because she's not in any way a weak character because of it.
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Compare with any number of teenage comedies in which the message is "Yes, you need to change." The truly hilarious point in "Simple Ways" was when Applejack showed through "Applejewel" that she can play the sophisticated flirt, and do so at least as well as does Rarity; she just doesn't want to. Mind you, that doesn't mean that Applejack could be a better Rarity than Rarity -- Rarity's surface sophistication and flirtatiousness is actually the least significant part of her character, what's important about Rarity is that she is strong, hard-working, caring, brilliantly-creative and a very highly skilled businessmare -- which are the things AJ actually respects about her friend.
I love Rarity, though we're not each other's "type" -- I have immense respect and liking for her. One of the things I like about My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic is that it shows that there are many different workable ways to be both morally good and practically-effective. Each of the Mane Six is both -- in her own way. The same is true of other sympathetic characters -- for instance, while Big Mac and Shining Armor have obvious similarities ("handsome, honorable and strong big brothers of main characters") their personalities and roles are different -- Big Mac is an introverted single apple farmer, Shining Armor a military officer and a gentlecolt who marries into royalty.
Did you like my version of Rarity's backstory and relationship (friendly and otherwise) with Spike? Some of the backstory in particular was harsh -- I've noticed that Rarity has a brittleness and cynicism about her compared to the rest of the Mane Six, and I figured that she'd surmounted some personal tragedy to become the fabulous fashionista we all know and love today. I also believe that the show clearly indicates that she now (by the end of Season Four) considers Spike one of her best friends, possibly her best friend, and that's how I depicted it.
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I very much enjoyed that chapter. I did notice a change in her attitude towards him in Season 4. Obviously Spike is too young for her, but if he was older I imagine she would become interested in him because he cares so much about her.
And I laughed in Simple Ways when she said "he couldn't possibly understand what it was like to be obsessed with some pony only to find out they're obsessed with somepony else."
And he doesn't hate her for it.
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I'm glad you liked it. I was trying to steer a course in presenting my Rarity between (on the one hand) making her out to be all fluffy and innocent (which, of all the Mane Six, she most clearly isn't) and presenting her as amorally jaded (which she also is not; she's idealistic and sets definite standards for her own behavior). She is the most likely of the Mane Six to do morally-questionable things, but she is also likely to do great and lasting good.
So my Rarity is somepony who has suffered some harsh experiences early in life, made significant mistakes -- but not been broken by them. Or to be precise, she's been stressed to the point of microfractures, but she's mostly healed from it and managed to rise from her disaster to achieve great things. But she still has the memories, which is why if one looks closely at her, one can see a certain brittle cynicism, and perhaps a haunted look in her eyes when certain subjects are raised.
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It is precisely because of her past suffering that she appreciates Spike's worth. She's seen how false and shallow people -- including herself -- can be. And she's seen that a fair surface can hide an untrue core. One of Spike's big attractions to her is that he really is the gentlecolt he claims to be (despite the fact that he's not really a Pony at all), and that his love for her is persistent and sincere.
The reason I picked an early-teenage seduction, pregnancy, abandonment and miscarriage as her past tragedy is that it totally fit her displayed character and implied personal history in canon. Whatever happened to her had to be deep -- not just some unfortunate external event, but something which sprang from fundamental strategic errors on her own part. And it had to be serious, something whose consequences she couldn't just shrug off.
We know Rarity came from a fundamentally good and loving family -- she finds her parents annoying, but they clearly care for each other and she does not seem afraid of or hostile to them. She squabbles with Sweetie Belle, but again their bonds are obviously very deep. But one flaw we do know is in the Bell(e) family is that her parents will cheerfully fob off their children on the supervision of others in order to spend more time with each other.
How do we know this? Because that's exactly what they do with Sweetie Belle. Rarity's not irresponsibele, but she is a single mare running a business, and they're nuts if they think Rarity can meaningfully supervise her.
Now, Rarity obviously got some sort of specialized training to do the things she does at the Carousel Boutique. She's not just a "seamstress," she's a one-mare operation handling finance, accounting, design, production and marketing. (Parenthetically, one reason that should not be overlooked for why she likes Spike so much is that he helps her). Rarity obviously went to a fashion and business oriented secondary school.
Ponyville, clearly, is far too small for such an establishment, and we don't see one -- the Carousel Boutique is itself the center of clothing fashion for many miles around. Which means that Rarity, while quite young, went off to live in some other city and study at school. Right at the point she was making the transition from being a child to being an adolescent.
Now, Ponies actually do this sort of thing in canon. Look at "The Cutie Mark Chronicles." Applejack, Pinkie, Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy are all living more or less independently -- AJ decides to walk to Manehattan; Pinkie apprentices with the Cakes; there have never been any signs of parents around either Rainbow Dash or Fluttershy (save for a brief appearance of Rainbow's father in one scene in another story).
Probably because Ponies are nicer (and less technologically advanced) than are Humans, it's simply fairly normal for tweenie to teenaged Ponies to go off alone and unsupervised in ways would horrify our culture. I suspect that preying on young Ponies is at least as rare in Equestria as is serial killing in America. So, rationally, they don't need to worry much about child molestors, chickenhawks and the like.
I have Rarity go off to secondary school at 12, when it would be more normally at 13-14. Why? Because she's simply that smart and hard-working. This is a manifestation of the same awesome diligence and intellect that lets her -- as a recent sole proprietor -- compete with established fashion houses. Rarity is awesome.
(Why Fillydelphia? Has to be a big city, but not Canterlot or Manehattan -- she doesn't act as if she really knows either city. Fillydelphia is the closest big city, especially by rail, that isn't Canterlot or Manehattan).
But at 12-13, she was also already dangerously-attractive, terribly-innocent and inclined to overestimate her own sophistication. Right at the point that she was feeling the first serious stirrings of her own sexuality, and truly on her own for the first time in her life (she wasn't apprenticed to anypony, unlike Pinkie Pie with the Cakes). It would not be surprising for her to run into Rush Rocks, or somepony like him, and be used by him.
And he was from a prominent family -- and she isn't. When she wound up pregnant, the 15-year-old Rush wasn't about to ruin his own future by offering her anything honorable. He was going places -- she was just common trash. He instead offered her the money for an abortion.
Which Rarity, at 13, contemptuously rejected. She would now in that sort of situation -- Rarity is a very proud Pony. At 13 she was far less practical. She realized that Rush's reaction meant he didn't really love her, and so she wanted nothing more to do with him.
This left her alone and pregnant, which meant that her expenses now exceeded whatever allowance she was getting and her physical condition would make it difficult and dangerous for her to push herself in her usual fashion to earn more money at whatever part-time job she was holding. Which, nastily, gave me the answer to "What happened to the foal?"
Miscarriage.
Which was something for which she could not easily forgive herself. Because her mistakes cost her the life of her own child. Her pride -- her unwillingness to go home to her family carrying an illegitimate child -- kept her from getting the food and medical attention (not to mention emotional support, as she was also alone, ashamed and frightened) she really needed.
This is the source of the brittleness and cynicism we see in the adult Rarity. And the source of the darkness that the Night Shadows exploited to corrupt her in the Nightmare Rarity IDW comics arc. Though, note, it derives from Rarity's fundamental decency -- a truly amoral and shallow mare might not feel as guilty as does Rarity for the succession of mistakes that brought her to that miscarriage.
(Plus, she then proceeded to demonstrate to Rush Rocks why one should not enrage a teenage filly with a Talent for social manipulation. The indirect whispering campaign she launched against Rush resulted in his humiliation of himself before his social circle, the young Fillydelphia Mane Liners -- and his expulsion from school. Rush became a social pariah. This was by far the darkest and nastiest thing Rarity has ever done).
In my (unwritten but planned) version of Nightmare Rarity, one of the things that brings Rarity to despair is that (because of what happens in my version of the lead-in) Spike learns what happened to her in Fillydelphia. Everything, including her seduction, pregnancy, miscarriage and revenge on Rush. And one of the things that helps bring her out of it is that it only makes Spike more protective of her. He still loves her, even after knowing the worst of her character.
(I conceived this, of course, in dramatic apposition to "Secret of My Excess," in which Rarity still likes Spike after she's seen the worst of his character. It actually works better than "Inspiration Manifestation," because it doesn't depend on a cursed spell, but rather Rarity's canon character flaws -- however my story is obviously not something the TV show could touch with a ten-foot pole).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this!
Precisely. Note that my Rarity in Divine Jealousy and the Voice of Reason is rather afraid of her own feelings for Spike. That's because she knows he's too young for her, and she's worried that she'll wind up falling for somepony else in the meantime and seriously break his heart. She's afraid, in fact, of (emotionally) doing the same thing to Spike that Rush did to her.
She's afraid for him because she loves him (though, if she didn't love him, she wouldn't be as tempted).
Some Sparity shippers (and I obviously am a Sparity shipper) don't get this. Spike is too young now, and it would not be a loving thing for Rarity to take advantage of his youth and innocence. What the anti-Sparity fans miss is that youth is a disease for which time has an infallible cure.
Twilight, incidentally, does not fully understand Rarity (Twilight is very smart but Rarity has a very twisty mind, especially in social matters), but she does get that Spike loves Rarity, that Spike is too young for Rarity, and that Rarity at least is very friendly toward Spike. And is far too honorable to take advantage of him (Twilight doesn't get why Rarity might be tempted: she is not experienced with lust -- fortunately, Twilight is fundamentally right regarding Rarity's honorable nature).
(Some fans, such as Terrycloth, totally miss that Twilight would be angry at Rarity if she did casually use and then abandon Spike, as in the comments to my blog post here. But Twilight regards Spike as her younger brother, and Rarity as a very good friend, and I think Twilight would feel personally betrayed in such a case. Twilight is herself highly honorable, and has previously shown great protectiveness toward her family).
Wow, hope you didn't mind such a long comment!
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I love your take on all this, and I don't mind long comments at all! I just worry that I won't be anywhere as near as thoughtful or articulate in replying to them!
I do wonder if there is any small town mentality in Ponyville- i.e. Rarity is gossiped about because she's seen as coming from high society even though she had her beginnings in Ponyville. I often think Fluttershy too might have suffered a bit of this, as she prefers to hide away and look after animals rather than seek out other ponies beyond the Mane Six. Might also be why she and Rarity are close.