So, Why the Rarity Angst? · 12:35am Aug 9th, 2014
Introduction
Nobody's actually asked me this -- which means either that my readers have a very good idea of how things work in a society such as I've been depicting, or that they take angst for granted in fanfic (and in truth, Rarity Belle is somepony who likes to throw personal pity parties almost as often as Pinkie Pie likes to throw the more common sorts of public festivals), but someone may be wondering why, given that I've explained in "Age of Consent in Equestria" that Rarity's somewhat ambiguous affectionate relationship with Spike isn't actually illegal in either Equestria in general or Ponyville specifically, Rarity is still worried about the moral and social implications of what she's doing. So I'm going to explain it.
Morality
Rarity loves Spike. She does not want to hurt Spike. She knows that she is drifting into behavior with Spike which is bound to result in him assuming that he is her beloved. Worse, Spike's assumption would be quite correct -- Rarity's problems with Spike all boil down to social expectations and her own strategy. She is very well aware that if she seduces Spike and then drops him when he's no longer convenient that she will be hurting him very deeply. Worse, hurting him in much the same way Rush Rocks hurt her.
While Rarity is not a virgin, she has strong sexual morals and in fact does not let stallions assume they are her beloveds in order to gain advantages from them. She flirts with them, keeps company with them, but she never promises anything she's not prepared to give. And she hasn't actually had sex with anypony since Rush -- she's done what we would call "making out" with some stallions she's especially liked, and flirted outrageously with others, but she hasn't slept around. This is largely for moral reasons, though also for social and strategic ones. Remember: Rarity is herself rather prudish by early 21st century Western standards (though not c. 1500 Equestrian ones).
Rarity is passionate, but her passions are strongly restrained by her intellect and morality. She fears that she is losing control with Spike, and that her passions will hurt him. And she would hate herself should she do so.
Society
Though it is perfectly legal for Rarity to seduce Spike and go off and have sex with him to her heart's content, society would frown on such behavior. Equestria is prudish by early 21st century Western standards, and what Rarity would be demonstrating to most Ponies by such conduct would be that she was heartlessly and shamelessly taking advantage of an innocent youth. That's before we get to the issue of prejudice against Dragons (remarkably little, in Spike's case, as he has personally been accepted in the heights of Canterlot Society, long before Rarity ever ventured there -- this would however make said Society sneer all the more at Rarity, for they like Spike the Dragon).
This is more than a little bit significant to Rarity given that her business is very largely dependent upon social approval. More on that under "Strategy." If she was generally-despised, she would receive few invitations to the world of the upper crust. Mind you, the Fast Set might admire her as "notorious," but Rarity doesn't like them -- if she did that, she'd be deliberately playing in Rush Rocks' world, and she would depise herself for doing so. She would be betraying her own ideal of "fabulosity."
Friendship
Were she to take advantage of Spike, she would also be badly-damaging her own friendships. Most notably, she would rupture her friendship with Twilight Sparkle, who regards Spike as her own adoptive baby brother. This might or might not be enough to completely destroy this friendship (Rarity and Twilight have after all been through a lot together, and Twilight knows how Spike has been throwing himself at her) but it would most definitely strain the friendship. The other four members of the Mane Six would (or at least she thinks they would) disapprove of this.
Rarity doesn't know that Pinkie Pie is actually trying to help smooth the path of their love, because Rarity can't see what Pinkie Pie can about a whole bundle of happy futures involving Rarity and Spike. Fluttershy also might have a very unusual take on the situation, since she doesn't even have a conventional Equestrian code of morality, but rather the one she's cobbled together out of Game Theory and Kindness. Applejack's and Rainbow Dash's opinions of the situation would be largely based on their assumptions regarding Rarity's motives.
These are the Ponies who Rarity values most outside her own family; she would not damage their good opinions of her lightly.
Strategy
Rarity's chosen life strategy is to become a huge success as a fashion designer, woo and win a high-status stallion (preferably one older than her), marry him and reign as a Queen of Society.
Spike has relatively high status in Society (more even than Rarity fully realizes) but he isn't a stallion. Or even a Pony. And he's younger rather than older than her. So on her original plan, she can't marry him.
But if she doesn't marry him, then (both by her own morals and in the opinion of society) Rarity would just be using him if she took him as a lover. And if she did that, then the very parts of Society she would most want to impress would despise her as trashy and commonplace.
Her other main source of status is her role as an Element Bearer. But her friends would also see her as being cruel to Spike if she made him her lover but refused to marry him, and they all like Spike (in the case of Twilight, love him). This would damage her friendship with the other Element Bearers -- possibly (especially with Twilight) to the point of breaking the Harmony. In which case she would no longer be an Element Bearer. (And the Realm would be that much less safe, which is a consideration that would also probably occur to Rarity).
Hence, falling in love with Spike is inconsistent with her life strategy. So she must not do this!
Conclusion
Except that she loves him. More and more as she comes to know him better and better. She's past the point where she can simply stop seeing him -- not only would such a break hurt his feelings very badly, it would also hurt hers.
She is caught, well and truly, in the trap they have laid for one another.
The trap called "Love."
I can see most of that, but why would it damage her friendship with Twilight?
Or do you mean after she dumped him having had her way with him? That I can definitely see making Twilight hate her.
But as long as Spike ended up happy with the situation I'd expect Twilight to go along with it. It'd be a learning experience for him, like the ice cream.
Isn't there also the problem of a Dragon's lifespan compared to a Pony's?
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Twilight in canon was afraid that Spike would get hurt when Rarity (inevitably) rejected him. Now that Rarity is (to a surprising degree actually in canon!!!) accepting him, Twilight's worry logically must shift to "Okay, but what happens when she gets tired of him?" Twilight knows that Spike is a lot more innocent than he pretends, and imagines that he's even more innocent than he is really (if you see what I mean).
If Rarity accepted Spike and really meant to marry him in the end, and convinced Twilight of this, Twilight would have little problem with the situation. She'd think it was a bit weird, but then there's no way that the marriage of her Dragon foster-brother is ever going to be entirely "normal." And Twilight isn't entirely normal either.
If Rarity dumped Spike because she never really loved him in the first place but just thought it would be amusing or erotically-exciting to mess around with a young Dragon -- oh yeah. Twilight would be pissed. Not mane-flaring, kaiju-wrasslin' pissed, but really, really mad in a more normal social sense. She's protective of Spike.
She'd also feel herself to be betrayed -- after all, Rarity claimed to be her friend too, and it would be treacherous for Rarity to use this claim of friendship to hurt her family.
In that case, the Harmony might be broken, and also Twilight and Rarity's friendship might never really recover.
Rarity would never actually behave this way. But Twilight doesn't know that.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I do!
Very much so. Mrs. Malloy, the milliner in The Matchmaker--the play that was turned into Hello, Dolly-- talks about how restricted her life is because she fears she'd lose her business. She cannot go out to the theatre or the opera or a restaurant--assuming she had the money for such a thing--because it would be "bad for business." It's always assumed that the milliner--any milliner--is morally a bit on the shady side, and her being a widow doesn't help. Her clients come partly out of gossipy curiosity--they suspect she's "no better than she should be," but they don't know. If they knew, she'd be ruined. And so poor Mrs. Malloy has gotten to the point where she despises hats and is willing to marry a crotchety man nearly twice her age to get away from them.
My Little Pony doesn't exactly depict that, because some kinds of gossip just won't make it into a children's TV show, but that's also why I had Rarity in a snit about Trenderhoof. She cannot stand the gossip about something so petty that is evidently going on weeks later. And if that's the Ponyville reaction to a crush on a travel writer, heaven knows what its reaction would be to a serious affaire du coeur with a juvenile dragon.
Sure, Rarity is a drama queen, but it's important to remember that even when she's overreacting, she's usually over-reacting to something. When she takes to her bed in Suited For Success, her business and career are potentially in tatters. I'd stay in bed, too!
EDIT:
I think I missed this bit. Was that in Chapter 13, and I forgot?
2354709
That could also be a problem. One way or another, depending on whether or not Rarity ever Ascends.
2354730 Okay. I was thinking about the middle situation where Rarity seduces Spike because she feels attracted to him, but isn't sure that she's going to marry him (because of various problems like him not being a pony), and either they break up because it isn't working, or she eventually falls in love with someone else.
That is, situations where it ends badly but not because Rarity went into it with malice aforethought. The sort of normal breakup where people can still be friends afterwards. You know, how most relationships actually end.
2354736 What Concept would she represent if she Ascended? How would she Ascend?
2354730
Of course. He's her LBBFF (Little Brother Best Friend Forever.)
2354734
Heh, I figured you would.
Yep. Rarity must be seen to be respectable in behavior, more so than those born upper-class, because she can't claim high birth. (Though she is starting to get a strong claim to respect both by achievement, and by association with Princess Twilight Sparkle).
Indeed. A lot would depend on its presentation to the world.
I agree. Not all Rarity's fears are fanciful, and though when she proclaims "Worst! Thing! Ever!" she is doing so partially as hyperbole, because something far worse once happened to her, there is generally some real bad fortune which provokes her reaction.
2354784
Twilight would almost certainly blame Rarity for this and feel some degree of hostility toward her for the outcome. Look at it from her point of view, especially given her assumptions regarding Spike's innocence (which are at least half-true).
Based on the evidence, Twilight has very little experience with such a situation. She's a perfectionist, and strongly idealistic where love is concerned. Especially if the breakup was due to Rarity falling in love with someone else, and jilting Spike, Twilight would blame Rarity. A lot. Even if she tried not to do so. Especially if Spike was very much hurt by the breakup. Which he almost certainly would be.
Remember, canon-Twilight's romantic experience consisted of a sudden strong crush on Human!Flash Sentry, which seems to have departed as suddenly as it came. My Twilight's had that and being slowly and elaborately courted by an immortal Alicorn Princess who says she's the reincarnation of her lost love from an earlier life. Aside from all that weirdness, she comes from a culture and subculture more sexually-conservative than our own.
And she is protective of her adoptive younger brother. Whose attitude has she modeled protectiveness of her younger sibling on? Why, Shining Armor's toward herself.
Really, no matter how I turn this and look at it from various directions, I don't see Twilight being calm about this. Nor do I see Rarity -- the mistress of understanding and predicting and manipulating social interactions -- failing to grasp that a serious breach of her friendship with Twilight will be in the offing if Rarity takes advantage of Spike.
For that matter, Spike is not the most coldly rational being in the world where Rarity is concerned. Rarity would probably lose her friendship with Spike in this situation -- or worse, Spike would continue to champion her because he hadn't given up on her. Both horribly predictible possibilities. Remember, Spike came from exactly the same social background as Twilight Sparkle -- he's just from the male variant of the upper-class Canterlot culture.
So Rarity wants to be very, very careful that she does not get involved with Spike that way unless she is reasonably certain it will work out. That means she wants to go slowly.
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She's in potential the Alicorn Libera -- Generosity, the manifestation of the World, of Society, and of Cooperation. Her power is to understand the web of political, social and economic interactions, to the point that she can tug on it a little strategically here and there and achieve vast effects via the force multiplier of her knowledge, wisdom and potency. Celestia, tapping but an emanation of that same power in the Element of Generosity, welded a nation out of three quarreling Tribes divided into numerous principalities. Rarity, being Generosity Incarnate, can probably do much, much more with this fundamental spiritual force when she Ascends.
I'm not yet sure exactly how she'll ascend, but the path usually involves coming to understand the nature of all the Kindreds, or at least a majority of them. Twilight's did, anyway: she was in addition to being close friends with two Earth Ponies and two Pegasi, also juggling the talents of all five of her best friends.
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Exactly, and she models her attitude toward Spike on Shining's towards her, modified by the fact that she doesn't want to be as stifling toward him and that Spike is male. Which is bad news for anypony who Twilight thinks wants to hurt him.
If the Pony was Rarity, Twilight would also see this as a betrayal of herself, and be even more hurt by it.
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Note well: I am not saying that Twilight would hover over both of them and snap at Rarity every time Rarity and Spike quarreled over anything. Or hate Rarity forever if the love died for some reason. But, if Rarity seduced Spike and then dropped him because it was inconvenient to marry a Dragon -- oh, Twilight would blame Rarity for that.
And rightly so -- it's not as if Rarity thought Spike was a Pony getting into it.
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In what magical land is this? Seriously, most relationships that go beyond casual dating usually end (if they end badly) with at least one of the parties blaming the other and lots of bad feelings all around. Love is a strong force, and readily turns to hate when it goes sour. Sometimes friendship can survive that sort of event, but one can't count on it.
2355285 If Celestia can do that with just a fraction of its force, I wonder what Rarity can do with its full power.
2355352
Coordinate the economic expansion of an interplanetary and ultimately interstellar civilization, until the economy has gotten well past the point that it needs any but its own coordination?
2354784
Sorry, too much sarcasm there. I'm just saying that Rarity is, especially given her Talent, very, very horribly aware of how if she messes this up she could shatter her whole circle of friends. Not to mention break the heart of her best friend in the whole world -- Spike.
2355364 Oh... woah. That's cool!
2355400
Think of the implication of Claire's Gates.
2355402 ...
Still cool!!
2355406
Thank you.
2355410 No problemo!!
2355274 Spike's outbursts are usually something that Twilight acts to mitigate, and she's also the voice of reason for her friends emotional problems quite often. She sees the best in everyone (except Discord) and if Spike came running to her crying that Rarity dumped her, she'd go and get Rarity's side of the story before she flew off the handle.
Because she's usually dismissive of Spike's drama, the same as she is of Rarity's. She's really not a romantic and the horrible pain would be foreign to her. And Rarity is definately inside her bubble of 'these are people I protect'.
It's only if she had the facts and Rarity's actions were really awful that she'd get mad.
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Yes. That is exactly what I mean. That is what Rarity fears to do too, and for the same reason that Twilight would be angry at her for doing so -- because it would hurt Spike. Rarity loves Spike too, and when you love someone, you fear hurting them.
At the same time, Rarity finds herself desiring Spike. Which is where this collides with her original planned life strategy, because she did not plan to marry a Dragon. The contradiction between her original life strategy and actual emotions should be obvious.
You are either profoundly underestimating both Twilight and Spike's opinion of the significance of love and heartbreak, or overestimating their opinion of the significance of ice cream and stomach-aches. Even Twilight is not so ruthless a rationalist, and Spike (being directly involved in the situation) would not see it as such.
Twilight is not afraid that Rarity will reject Spike. That is actually what she has always assumed would happen. Twilight is afraid that Rarity will first accept Spike, because Rarity plainly enjoys his company (Twilight would have to be far more Oblivious To Love than I've painted her here not to notice that), then, after using him for his love, dump him for a more socially-suitable stallion (Twilight is also.not oblivious to the fact that Rarity's long term goal is marrying a high-status stallion).
That would not be a minor blow to Spike's ego. That would be very serious -- it would mean that he had been rejected by somepony he had every reason to count a lifetime love, and rejected mainly because he was a Dragon (if he were in truth Twilight's biological brother, he would be a "high-status stallion" and almost perfectly matching Rarity's search image).
Since Spike is a Dragon raised as a Pony and trying to fit into Pony culture, that would be devastating at the level of possibly leading him to question his affiliations. Seriously, about the only way it could be any worse would be if Rarity said "Silly Spike. I was just toying with you. After all, you're not a Pony ... not a Pony ... not a Pony" (with full dramatic reverb on the last part).
That sort of cruelty toward someone she cares about is out of Rarity's possibility space of behavior, and Twilight knows it, or at least strongly suspects it. If Twilight thought Rarity was cruel like that, she would have intervened earlier in Spike's friendship with her.
But the fact of it is almost as bad, because Spike is not stupid and can see the implications of the actions of others. He would be hurt not only by what Rarity said, but by the implications of what Rarity would do.
Which Rarity can see too, but Twilight can't read her mind. To wit:
This is not about how absolutely cheerful Rarity is about the thought of achieving success in her original marital strategy. This is about how horrified Rarity is at the prospect of breaking Spike's heart. Rarity doesn't see this as equivalent to a lesson for Spike about eating too much ice cream.
Perhaps one thing you are not getting about this is that I am depicting a more romantically-idealistic and sexually-conservative society than that of the modern West. While of course love affairs fail for early 16th-century Equestrian Ponies just as they do for early-21st century Western Humans, they take this sort of thing more seriously.
A passing fancy might be like eating too much ice cream. A love matching the description of Spike's for Rarity -- one which has been growing over many years and which has had a significant effect on molding his character -- that isn't going to just go away with a casual shrug. Rarity -- who is under her veneer of romanticism fairly cynical about love by Equestrian standards (remember her backstory), is not cynical about Spike's love. Spike's personality plugs into her deepest romantic ideals. She respects him a heck of a lot.
That last part is canon. Watch the last few episodes of Season Four. Rarity treats Spike as her hero, and defends him against any attempt to trivialize him. This may be a writing accident; it looks to me an awful lot like character and relationship development. Compare with earlier in the series, when she would treat him more like a sapient pet and be protective of him as if he were a child, not a heroic young adult.
This is why I'm showing Rarity having these feelings in a fic set explicitly between the next-to-last and last episodes of Season Four, because this is when she's showing similar (though less explicit feelings) in canon.
I fully expect this to be jossed the moment that a network or toy company executive actually watches some of those episodes and shrieks "What are you implying?!!" and insists on either pairing Rarity or Spike with someone else to avoid the obvious implications -- namely, the ones that I'm showing in this fic. But we may be lucky -- executives are stupid creatures, where art is concerned, and they may not catch it.
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She's dismissive of their histrionics. She would not be dismissive of their real emotional pain. Especially not Spike's. Spike is special to her, because Spike is her little brother.
We are running here into differing meanings of the term "romantic." In the sense of painting an exaggeratedly-emotional veneer over life, Twilight Sparkle is not a romantic. In the sense of taking love seriously, she is a romantic.
Twilight's probably never experienced the horrible pain of being dumped from a serious, emotional and sexual romantic relationship because at this point in time she's never had one, and to the extent that my Twilight is having one (with Luna) it's still in its fairly early stages. That doesn't mean that she's so totally unconnected to Pony nature that she imagines this to be trivial. Twilight is, after all, capable of love. And she's not stupid.
Sheltered as she is, she's still probably seen other Ponies get hurt that way. And she can imagine Spike getting hurt that way. And she's protective of her little brother.
Well, yes ... but then in Rarity's scenario, her actions are pretty awful -- she toys with Spike for sexual gratification then dumps him for a "real" match. Rarity considers this a horrible thing to do to Spike. The thoughts
are not that of somepony happy about pursuing such a course of action!
Here, want to imagine a simple analogy? How would Rarity react if somepony treated Sweetie Belle that way? Now can you see why she doesn't want to treat Spike that way? For reference, Spike and Sweetie are roughly the same age -- Sweetie just acts younger than she really is, while Spike acts older.
And yeah. In the Sweetie Belle gets dumped after grown stallion gets bored with using her scenario, Rarity would get real mad. Which informs her prediction of Twilight's likely actions in the equivalent Spike scenario.
And yeah, based on everything I've seen in the show, Twilight would get mad. She doesn't get angry easy, because she's a convinced rationalist. But when something does get her mad, she has real emotions in there.
There are still a lot of problems with Sparity
1. Rarity is seen in S4 to be in love with Trenderhoof, it didnt look like her love ended.
2. Unless we take that both ponies and dragons age in same way we can only assume that he would mature after Rarity become very old until that day, maybe even in Granny Smith age if dragons live more than 1000 years.
3. Physical barriers remain. Spike will be too big to function in their society when he mature. It would also be impossible for them to have children (because if gene difference and physical difference of their genitalia)
Which mean Rarity can only have a relationship with a child as he was born like around 50 years too late.
While i think that Discord could workout every barrier with Fluttershy with his magic and maybe even help Spike and Rarity with their problems i dont think he can use magic to permanently change his appearance and maturity.
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At the end of "Simple Ways" she perceives him more realistically. Unlike Blueblood, Trenderhoof was not (save perhaps in one scene) actually mean to her, so she didn't wind up despising him as she did Blueblood.
She never really loved Trenderhoof. She had a crush on him, one which did not entirely survive actually getting to know him. She may still be attracted to and like him. I think Trend is fairly likeable, so I could see her still liking him.
But this seems a weak thing compared to her extreme emotions regarding him through most ot the episode. And it's also a weak thing compared to the extreme affection she repeatedly displays for Spike in the last few episodes of Season Four ("Simple Ways" is S4E13 while "Inspiration Manifestation," the episode where Rarity's view of Spike seems to undergo its most crucial change, is S4E23).
In my story, Rarity and Spike have not explicitly declared their love (though it's kind of obvious if you watch them together, even if you can't read their thoughts). Rarity knows that if she speaks of it openly to Spike, she will have committed herself to a course which she fears will end in his heartbreak. Spike -- well, Spike may not have explicitly said to Rarity "I love you and intend to one day marry you," but it's extremely obvious to Rarity (and Twilight, and anypony who knows them both well) that he feels this way about her.
Given that they haven't explicitly declared their love, neither of them feels bound by it. Rarity can still look for Mr. Right Stallion, and Spike has the opportunity to meet somepony his own age who doesn't have an all-embracing life strategy that she picked out when she was 14 years old and recovering from a severe emotional trauma.
Hey, Sweetie Belle would probably like Spike that way, if he was interested. And if the script writer wanted to inflict the maximum emotional complications upon their lives. I'm sure some writers would go that course.
Spike's probably way too nice to do that, though, if he knew what he would be doing, and understood what would be the emotional consequences. If he does. (*wonders*)
Dragons are definitely longer lived than normal Ponies. Having said that, we don't know if Rarity's going to turn out to be a normal Pony. And this obstacle would exist no matter which Pony Spike decided to love.
Why is he likely to love a Pony? Because Spike has been raised by Ponies, and his concept of "female" comes from Twilight Velvet, Twilight Sparkle, and other mares and fillies he's seen. I'd almost guarantee you that his concept of "desirable female" could be summarized as "Like Twilight Velvet or Twilight Sparkle, but not actually my mom or sis, and more glamorous."
Rarity fits the bill. She's a Unicorn, she's highly-intelligent, classy and kind to him, and she makes glamor the main purpose of her life. The "intelligent" part is very important here -- Spike is himself higly-intelligent, probably smarter than most Ponies, and he has been raised by and around very smart Ponies.
Rarity's own intelligence is much higher than some fans realize, because they confuse "intelligent" with "book-loving." Rarity runs a complex business enterprise on her own and has been shown reading books for pleasure in some of her off-hours. My depiction of her as having explored some advanced scientific and social speculations suggested to her by Fluttershy and Twilight is not far outside the range of her canon characterization; if you want to know yes, my Rarity also likes to read romance novels, historical adventure novels, and thrillers.
As for the future beyond half a century or so? Spike and Rarity are both very young -- to them the future beyond the next five years is a very, very long time away. Rarity is 22 -- she won't even start to seriously slow down for another decade or two. As for Spike, he's still physically a child by the standards of his own species -- he'll be an adolescent in another decade or so. His mind , however, is socially that of a young adolescent Pony.
Rarity might also Ascend, in which case the age problem cuts the other way -- Rarity will be immortal and Spike mortal (though very long-lived by Pony standards).
Very true. This will, however, be a slow process. Fischfootur, for instance, is 34 and is not yet too large to easily interact physically with Ponies (he's around Luna's height and masses around 1 1/2 tons). He's around mid-adolescence. But then, he's of a different Kind than Spike -- Spike will be longer but less massive than Luna 20 years from now.
Ki-rin are officially a thing in my universe (note Pinkie's vision?), so it's not impossible -- just more difficult. As for the genitals -- I may or may not write explicitly about this at some point, but big archosaurs tend to develop penile structures, so I would imagine dragons have some sort of penile members (which probably retract behind the armored scales while not in use).
If Ki-rin are possible, then the semen can't be actually harmful to Ponies (in other words, it's not boiling acid or anything like that). Though she might need to use some sort of cream or other internally-applicable lotion to avoid long-term allergic reactions, if she plans to do this a lot (and she would, if they were wed -- she has a very strong sex drive).
So, yeah, they can probably mate. Depending on when male Dragons become fertile, they might be able to do so now; it's almost certain that they could do so within a decade or so. Earlier than that, they could engage in forms of sexual intercourse without the possibility of offspring.
Spike knows several Ponies with very powerful magic, starting with his adoptive sister, but they'd want to be careful about changing him in ways which might have unexpected bad side effects. Twilight in particular would be leery of experimenting on her own baby brother, and the other Alicorns of harming Spike in general.
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Actually Rarity didnt remember 90% of the episode. It cant be counted as their development as their only interaction is when she was eating icecream. You could argue that her saying that they should run together and create havoc was her inner desire but it was probably just the spirit of the book who used her body and tried to fool Spike too.
Also do you really think the writers of the show intend to somehow match them together in canon or they want it to be an innocent one sided crush that will be ultimately finished when they introduce a female in his age (maybe even a dragon)?
On the unrelated topic, im also somehow confused on what is the attitude of writers(especially Meghan) toward Discord and Fluttershy. In the days when i was shipping Dislestia, i was sure they going to turn them into a very safe pairing and that they will instantly torpedo their ship by making them into "father/daughter uncle/niece grandfather/granddaughter " relationship where she basically refer to him by "Mr Discord" and he refer to her as "young one" or mentioning that she should respect elders or maybe even saying that shes like a daughter to him. Yet they seem to be treated on equal grounds like they would be in the same age and species. Comic books writers also didnt change their relationship and open it for interpretation. And i wish i knew the end game and what Meghan is thinking of them in her head. They will have to either switch into Spike/Twilight relationship where their future as a romantic pair is impossible or Cheerilee/Big Macintosh when they are more likely to grow closer
2356403
Ok ... the key development this episode was that Spike stood up to Rarity when she needed to be told an unpleasant truth for her own good. This is extremely important, as Rarity needs a mate who can stand up to her and dissuade her from foolish actions, as one of Rarity's canon weaknesses (displayed in numerous episodes including "Dragonshy" and "Sonic Rainboom") is that she tends to grab a bad idea (steal the dragon's treasure, try to hog all the attention of the Pegasi) and run with it to the point of self-destruction.
In my fanon this has hurt Rarity a lot in the past. ("Wow! I have my Cutie Mark and my Cycle now and I'm in Fillydelphia and I'm all grown up so I should totally run around with Rush Rocks cuz he obviously loves me cuz I'm so pretty and nothing but good things will come of this, even if Mom told me not to let colts do this to me, what does she know? ...") And Rarity is realistic enough, when she's not in the grip of one of these disastrous brainstorms, to know that she has this weakness.
So she needs the love of someone who mostly approves of her and emotionally supports her when she needs to take risks with her art, but who is also smart and strong enough to know when she's about to do something really dumb (in this case, probably enter the Nightmare state again and wreak havoc on Equestria) and warn her that it's not a good idea.
And although she doesn't directly, clearly remember the things she did under the influence of the Book, she remembers what happened right before and right after, and numerous Ponies, and Spike, will tell her what she did under the influence. And she can imagine what she would have done if Spike hadn't saved her at the last.
So the significance of this is that Spike passed a major, spontaneously-appearing Love Test. She realizes now that she can trust Spike to be her partner, not merely her sycophant.
At the end of the episode, she is enormously affectionate toward Spike. And she displays this behavior in every following episode, including the finale. Notice who she's huddling against for comfort when she's been power-drained. She sees Spike as her protector. (She also quite reasonably thinks she's going to die pretty soon, and she cares less what other Ponies think at a moment like that).
Seeing how far they're taking it on screen, I think the writers want to push this as far as it can go. I also think that there's a good chance the Executive axe will fall and insist on giving Spike and Rarity "safer" love interests. Probably rather dull characters with so little personality that they make Flash Sentry look like Pinkie Pie by comparison.
I have seen this done before. Do you remember the Lilo and Stitch TV series? And the main reason they introduced Angel?
I think they are getting away with more between Rarity and Spike than they did between Lilo and Stitch because neither Rarity nor Spike are exactly human, though the Ponies of Equestria are very obviously a very psychologically-human race with a recognizably enlightened human-style culture.
You know, I didn't invent the endearment "Precious Scales," which (notably unlike "Darling" or "Sugarcube") can apply to only one being in the social orbit of the mare in question. I also didn't invent their tendency to give each other long, romantically-tinged hugs and nuzzles. That's all been shown on screen. On screen, in a show which normally avoids that sort of thing. That implies rather a lot.
If the crush is "one-sided," then why are there so many scenes (especially in the last few eps of the fourth season) where Rarity initiates stroking, hugging or even kissing him? Rarity is not innocent (at least not compared to Spike) and she would know full well what she is implying to him by this behavior. Either she means to communicate exactly what it looks like, or her desire for physical contact with Spike is so strong that she can't resist it. In either case, the implications are that Rarity loves Spike.
If the sapient technicolor horses are able to keep control of the colony they've planted in my brain's creative centers, I may invent rather a lot between Rarity and Spike which I know they won't ever show on screen, but that's another story.
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To me the situation looks a lot as if Discord once loved Celestia, and is hoping to restore at least some of their former relationship. I don't know what the writers intend, but that's what his behavior implies.
Also, it looks to me as if Celestia is strongly resistant to the notion. For the obvious reasons, and maybe some inobvious ones relating to unrevealed backstory.
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I was talking about Fluttercord for that entire part. Im past the Dislestia phase already
I was just curious if someone else have strange impression that Meghan ship them secretly xD
The problem is that it is a common behavior especially in american culture that older women tend to treat young cute boys with hug and cuddles or pinch their cheeks. It is not considered as sexual impression though probably in todays world is often not seen anymore since the mentality changed and even giving a child a spanking is seen as very wrong especially if that person is not related to him.
I think Meghan making him into Arnold Jackson(different strokes) character where he is witty and sharp but still a cute child. While Rarity is somekind of an adult lady. Although young but also still that treat him as cute little sport rather potential candidate
i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/01/25/article-0-0801B050000005DC-891_468x321.jpg
So thats at least what non sparity shippers see him as.
Still i think some writers like MA Larson who made Secret of Your Excess or writer of Nighmare Rarity comic seem to build them for potential future romance. They probably percieve him as more matured boy or even teenager who have a chance with her in a few years. Something like Clare and Raki from Claymore where he is little boy when they meet while shes 20+
images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/29400000/Clare-and-Raki-claymore-anime-and-manga-29471366-900-563.jpg
So it really can go both way with it. And seeing that Meghan have the final word it may go with the first idea and as you said may introduce another "Angel" for him. I wish she would just use developed characters like Spike or Discord for mane6 instead introducing new Flash/Brads for them (or just make them asexual for the rest of the series.
)
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Oh, Fluttercord?
In canon they act attracted to one another -- whether it's sexual or not depends on the extent to which Discord is sexually attracted to Ponies. That's one reason why in Divine Jealousy and the Voice of Reason, I have the following dialogue:
Happily nopony asked Luna the obvious complementary question. She'd have answered it honestly, of course, but might have been a bit embarrassed by it, given the identity of the second Pony to be attracted to Discord in such a fashion.
Of course, Fluttershy actually knows the answer to the complementary question, which is why she doesn't bother to ask it.
Oh, I think that Rarity's behavior toward Spike started as that, back when she was still seeing him as a "child." Note that the key moment in which her attitude changed was when Spike revealed that he had the moral strength of an adult -- or at least adolescent (in "Inspiration Manifestation"). Note that after that, she became more interested in displaying physical affection toward him.
Well yes -- Rarity is an adult and Spike is not. In my chronology she's 22, he's 14. In real life, even in an area where it was legal, a love affair would be improbable given an older female in that situation (but note that the Ponies are matriarchal and capable of childbearing for longer, so the prejudice against older female / younger male is not as strong among them).
Now, the other way round? Older male / younger female? In an area where it was legal? Instantly. In the real world, too. Indeed, this is exactly what happens in a lot of places where it's illegal -- the couple just behaves discreetly and if it works out admits to the union when the female is older. Happens every day, in the Magical Land of Oakland California. Not to say that Oakland CA should exactly be used as the model of utopia ...
What do you mean when you say Fluttershy's moral code is cobbled together from what she's learned from Game Theory and Kindness? Is Game Theory a pony?
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No -- the mathematical concept of Game Theory, which is useful in analyzing many sorts of interactions -- including ethological ones. Fluttershy is building a moral code for herself by trying to understand Pony interactions.
4179598 Got it. Why doesn't she have a conventional Equestrian moral code?