The Israel/Gaza Situation Has Me Broken · 6:39am Oct 19th, 2023
Ignore if you hate this topic. I avoid social media, and I'd rather rant here than the hellhole that is Twitter 
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Simply put, any chance Palestine had for freedom is over due to what Hamas did. For the record, I'm pro-Palestinian freedom, which makes me a target of everyone! I'm extremely anti-Hamas and against the extremist Muslim views of the average Palestinian, but I still want them to have a free and functioning nation. Whether that be a two-state solution where they and Israel agree to leave each other alone, or a single democratic state that offers equality to everyone. Basically, I'm an idealist idiot
But after the Hamas terror rampage, Palestine is over. I don't want it to be over, but it is. Their only chance for freedom was international sympathy, and Hamas fucked it up. Israel now has the green light to level Gaza to the ground and keep taking land in the West Bank. For the average Gazan, it's either death via Israeli missile, subjugation via Hamas, or try to escape as a refugee.
The problem: No one wants to take them. Despite all the talk of supporting their "Muslim brothers and sisters," the Arab states aren't going to take in refugees. And the West will hesistate to take them since the average Palestinian is unfortunately extreme in their views, and I say this as someone who knows their community. This is a community that will laugh off gay people being beheaded in the street and casually talk about how Sharia is better than democracy once you're close enough with them.
Taking them in means cultural conflict and possible violence in the future due to their extremist views. Not taking them in means letting millions of teens and kids possibly die and definitely become homeless. We all know the West would have no issue taking in millions of European, Korean or Japanese refugees, and it's not due to race or necessarily religion. Call me a madman, but I don't want a child homeless or dead because their parents are insane Hamas supporters.
What a shitty situation we have allowed.
It's just unfortunate all around.
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Especially because there's no solution that leaves even 25% of people happy. I really wish there was a way to force Egypt and Jordan to take them.
Saudi Arabia is beyond any wishing. They'll literally spend half a trillion making some useless city in the desert while their fellow Arabs get killed and abused, all the while pretending to care.
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Agreed on all points.
China has a lot of ghost cities.
I want Palestine to be free too...
This conflict is an excellent example of how reality is never black and white, despite human nature wanting us to view it that way. It's a serious mess, put simply, and one can only hope it doesn't end up turning into a repeat of 1973.
Man, not that I disagree, but respectfully, please don't say 'we' - as in the West, the World, or whatever - allowed this. I know that there are people who blame the West, UN, Brits, etc. because of what happened in 1948, but the sad reality is, this thing has been fueled by a shitload of misconceptions, lies, and... hatred toward the Jews.
For the record, for the last twenty years, I was 100% pro-Palestine myself. I bought into the, 'It was Palestinian's land and darn Jews stole it!' narration, and the 'symmetric response' bullcrap. And since Israel was obviously 'stronger' I saw them as the 'big bad bully' that was oppressing the poor Palestinians.
That idealized picture lasted until Israel moved out of Gaza in... 2005 I believe... Israel finally gave Palestinians the power to govern themselves they always wanted and left their land completely, and how did the peace-loving Palestinians respond to that? By electing Hamas - a terrorist organization that openly claims it doesn't recognize Isreale's right to exist
! TLDR; the shitstorm went downhill from there...
Of course, Israel is no saint either, but at least they do not deny Palestinians the right to exist. And they tried peace talks over, and over, and over. But every time they gave in an inch, they got a bunch of rockets and/or suicide bombers as a 'thank you.' It made conversation a bit tricky...
'But... Jews are bad because they built a wall and locked Palestinians in!' Yes, they did, but if your neighbor would be openly threatening to hurt you, wouldn't you do the same? Oh, and Egipt also built a wall! And you don't see people bitching about that. Interesting, no
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'But... Hamas != Palestine!' Maybe, but they WILLINGLY voted Hamas in (there was no free election since - surprise, surprise...). And judging by their reactions to what happened on the 7th of October (singing, dancing, laughing, and acting VERY happy
) I have a feeling they're much closer to Hamas than the diplomats would want us to believe.
The entire situation in the Middle East is one giant clusterfuck, but it's not gonna change as long as the people who live there won't realize that the only way to peace (outside of total annihilation of one side) is to accept their neighbor's right to co-exist. And it doesn't seem likely anytime soon so... yeah.
Frankly, I'm more scared and disgusted by the reactions in the Western countries, with people running around, showing support for 'Palestine' and denying atrocities committed by Hamas. To me, someone who has seen a tiny fraction of the (uncensored) live footage posted by Hamas themselves, hearing people chanting, 'Gas the Jews' under the Sydney Opera was the icing on the cake that almost made my stomach turn. If this is not pure fucking evil, then I don't know what is
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We're really living in 'interesting' times...
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I meant we as in a poetic "we, humanity." Obviously we, the people reading this post and the vast majority of humans, didn't cause this.
I was more on the Palestinians' side because a group proclaiming they owned the land 2,000 years ago made as much sense as Putin saying Ukraine wasn't a real country because Russia once controlled it. If we're going to use borders from the year zero, then we might as well bring back Rome haha. And me being an athiest, the idea of God proclaiming a piece of land to be yours makes as much sense as a child proclaiming the tooth fairy is real.
To be fair, I never bought into this bullcrap logic. If I'm stronger than you, and you hide behind civilians, I'm obviously going to end up killing a lot more civilians than you even if I try my best to limit innocent deaths.
Yup. The Palestinians' worst enemy is themselves. From my own personal experience, they're among the most radical group I've met. And for some dumb reason, many of them genuinely believe they can beat a modern military that's allied with the U.S. and has hundreds of nukes. They're essentially a childish suicide cult at this point who believe that with enough prayer, belief and "martyrs", they can win.
Seriously, Palestinians I know have these insane group chats where they're praying around the clock right now to give "power" to their "martyrs" in Gaza because they genuinely believe it'll help them win. They're worse than a drunk guy who thinks he can beat prime Mike Tyson.
Israel and Palestine both fail when it comes to human decency, but Israel fails with 40%, while Palestine fails with a 2%. So both are failures, but there's a big gap haha. But to be honest, the Israeli government does deny Palestine's right to exist. They're just smart about it. They effectively support West Bank settlers, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Palestinians are kicked out from Gaza within 20 years due to Hamas. Make no mistake, it's still Gaza's fault for supporting Hamas, but Israel knows what it's doing here.
The Arab nations are far worse IMO because they pretend to be brothers and sisters of the Palestinians, and then take zero refugees and build walls to keep the Palestinians locked in. At least Israel is honest that it's Palestine's enemy.
And I can't blame Israel for essentially caging Gaza, but the problem is that it doesn't work. Israel's policies towards Gaza just radicalizes them further, and as we saw this month, it doesn't stop terror attacks. Which is why I believe their real goal is to radicalize Gaza to the point that Israel has the ultimate excuse to annex the land.
Dude, here in New York we had a giant rally where people:
- Laughed off the festival goers being killed
- Proudly proclaimed that Islam is the one true religion that must spread to every household
- Talked about how they "understood" why Hitler did what he did
And then there are the countless other videos of Westerners talking like literal genocidal Nazis. I'm not surprised by any of this because I know many Middle Easterners and how radical they are. "Gas the Jews" is the least of what I've heard. I'm not just sick to my stomach; I'm competely pissed off.
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Adding to this, I had to end a friendship over politics for the first time ever.
I once helped a gay Palestinian-American who lives in fear 24/7 because he knows coming out to his parents means being disowned, possible violence from relatives, and never being able to visit the Middle East again. He knows that his relatives in Gaza will literally behead him if they find out he's gay. It was only last year that a gay guy was beheaded there.
I've been friends with him for a couple years but ended it after he defended Hamas and called them "freedom fighters." He's the best example of a Palestinian and why they'll never win. The dude sides with people who'll gladly cut his head off, and he still thinks Palestine can win a war against Israel. What do you even call that level of stupidity?
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Well, it makes two of us. IMHO Israel should stop using that argument because it makes no sense to most people. That said, people should really investigate the actual history of the region, which is... complicated to say the least. I'm not gonna try to play an expert on this, but AFAIU, the claim, 'Jews came and stole Palestinian land!' that is the basis of all other Palestinian claims, doesn't hold water because:
There is more, but that alone throws a wrench into the lovely 'Jews are thieves!' narration. Of course, some people were unhappy that suddenly, they became part of a new country, but that happens every time borders change.
Oh, and Israel quickly became one of the wealthiest, freest, and most tolerant countries in the region. So, if these people didn't rebel but joined the cause, they would be a hell of a lot better off right now. Irony is a bitch, huh
?
Good for you, man. Unfortunately, most people bought into it. There is a worrying tendency, especially in the West, to always support the 'weaker' side - no matter what it does. And I don't even mean in war - take self-defense for example. How many times did you hear someone arguing it's immoral to shoot/stab/whatever someone who is trying to rob you?
The above really makes you forget who the victim is and who the perpetrator... IMHO, what we see in Israel (and in Ukraine, to a lesser extent) is just the extrapolation of that kind of thinking. Douglas Murray has a nice response to that:
As I said earlier, they literally pulled back out of the Gaza Strip around 2005, and left it to the Palestinians. To me, that's an indication of goodwill. And, yes, I know they left the fence in place, and the sanctions, but again, IMHO every sane person would do the same thing, if he knew his neighbor plans to hurt him. Not sure what else they could have done, except for maybe disbanding Israel entirely, and that was not an option.
As for the West Bank... I'll say something unpopular, but IMHO they should have annexed it years ago, granted citizenship to those who wanted peace, and kicked out the rest OR created an autonomic state or something similar. I know they would be breaking international law, but what's the alternative? Give it back to Jordan or Palestinians? Not a very safe option if you ask me. They used that land as a staging point to attack Israel once, they can use it again. Not to mention that every Israeli settler would probably end up with his head chopped off if that ever happened.
I honestly don't see a good exit out of this situation
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I doubt that for a very simple reason – numbers. No matter how much international support Israel gets, it's still a single and very small country of 10 million, surrounded by not-so-friendly, and much bigger nations. For now, the USA was always on their side, but if they started kicking Palestinians off their land en-masse (and that's the only option in which annexation would work), then the world, and especially the surrounding nations would have to react.
The last few weeks clearly showed they're not as invulnerable as they thought. Would Israel win? Maybe... but even if, they would endure huge losses. And if the USA had pulled out... things could turn very, VERY ugly... That's one scenario Israel really should avoid, and they know that.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to annex parts of the West Bank that have majority Jewish citizens, in some other way (referendum, or similar). It still can end up ugly, though...
This is precisely what I meant. I'm not surprised by Muslims acting that way - their 'love' for Israel and Jews is well known. But hearing and seeing Western ‘progressive’ atheists, chanting alongside, and mindlessly repeating 'We support free Palestine' while denying Hamas atrocities? That I did not expect, and frankly it scares me
. I just hope it will be an eye-opener for some people. Otherwise, well... I don't even want to think about it 
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Can't be right... These people told me Palestine was a 'queer' heaven:
spectrejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/elementor/thumbs/Queers-Against-Israeli-Apartheid-p97e6ulrpoyc6cd8xq7cz9eurswtb320tntotyit7c.jpg
Stop spreading Israeli propaganda, man! Every queer person should take their rainbow flag and go visit Palestine to show their
!
suicidal tendenciessupport! Queers For PalestinePersonally, I call that being an 'educated idiot' - a person who is not stupid often carries a degree but is so naive and/or so influenced by some ideology, that he will act to the point of suicide just to prove a point. If you think about it... this is one common trait between Palestinians in Gaza, your former friend, and 'alphabet people for Palestine.' Each one acting illogical to you or me, but logical to themselves.
The same thing happened when Communism was falling apart. The economy was in the toilet, the store shelves were empty, there were fuel shortages, and so on... but commies were still in full denial, believing that Communism was the best system ever invented and all the problems were just temporary or created by the 'evil capitalists.'
Evil capitalists, evil police, evil West, evil Jews, evil witches, and evil black cats... people always loved boogiemen to blame their problems on - especially if the problem was within themselves. Nothing new here, really
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Yup, for some reason most Americans think Israelis are European Jews who came after WW2, when most Israeli Jews actually lived in the Middle East the whole time. Lots of Americans think the Jews stole the land from an Arab Palestinian nation when the Arabs there never had a free land of their own. The Ottomans controlled the land since the 1500s, and it's an endless list of empires and warlords before that.
I saw that video a week ago and competely agree. What even is an "equal" response? Should Israel kill an equal number of innocent civilians of equal age in the exact same way? If someone half my size punches me, he's going to end up a lot more hurt than me even if I try to limit the damage, and it's his fault for starting the fight. Even if I purposely angered him to make him throw a punch, he's still getting hurt for throwing it.
I'm trying to stay away from morality on purpose here and be practical because a religious war is as immoral as it gets. Palestine is never winning using violence, no matter how much they cry about an unequal response from Israel.
Me neither, which is why I'm trying my best to keep my feelings out of this. I 100% understand that annexing the West Bank is the smart move for Israel, which is why I believe that is their long-term plan. And I also believe that Israel knows there is no way peace ever happens in Gaza, which is why their long-term plan is annexing it too. No amount of goodwill will ever satisfy the people of Gaza or the extremist faction in Israel, so it makes sense they'd annex it all over the next 50 years.
The Arab nations will be pissed, but over time they've opened relations with Israel because it's just the smart thing to do economically. Yeah, if Israel annexes Palestine quickly then there would be war. But if they do it over the next 50 - 75 years? I unfortunately think they will get away with it. The West will take most of them since we've taken in millions of Arab migrants anyway. Not that I agree with taking them all in... I just think that's what will happen.
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I'm not surprised since progressives are for "marginalized" groups even though those groups aren't all equal in victimhood. Seriously, I hate that genetic/innate classifications like race, skin tone and sex got confused with choices like religion or ideology.
Discriminating based on race is dumb because someone can't ever change that. But it's 100% fine to bash someone for their views. Being a Nazi, communist or extremist Muslim is a choice. And not all religious factions are equal either. A moderate Ugandan Christian, a moderate Palestinian Muslim, and a moderate communist are all still extreme by Western standards. Meanwhile, a moderate Christian from America's New England region is super liberal by Christian standards. I'll always be confused by how someone can be pro-LGBT, pro-Women's rights, and pro-human rights and then march for Muslim groups like Hamas that are extreme by 1600s standards in the West.
My ex-friend is free to move to Palestine and come out as gay there any time he wants... yet he never will. Wonder why.
I will never ever understand this. You judge ideologies based on their objective results and the societies they create. If an ideology came along that was better than what the West has created, then I'm all for it. And I say that as someone who has many issues with current capitalism.
Honestly, I don't think the Palestinians are acting logical to themselves. Deep down, they know they won't win using violence. My honest assessment based on endless talks with them is that this is their plan:
- Hamas kills x Israeli civilians
- Israel's response kills 10x Palestinian civilians
- Westerners get mad at discrepancy and demand Western governments stop supporting Israel
- Arab nations use opportunity to gang up on Israel and crush it once and for all
The problem is that this plan is idiotic and will never work. But when you point this out to them, their implication is that when enough Palestinian kids die, then the guilt will be too much for the West.
Do they not realize they're talking to the nation that was ready to nuke Japan until the end of time if it didn't surrender unconditionally?
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That is how it should be, but in many Western countries, it's sadly, much more complicated. There are places (some US states included, I believe) where you have the duty to retreat first, and only if that fails you can fight back, and then only without using the 'excessive' force / by using 'reasonable' force - whatever the hell that means...
To me, this creates a very ‘interesting’ situation where the perpetrator can do whatever the hell he wants, but the victim - who doesn't know what the perpetrator's end goal - should use 'reasonable' or 'proportional' force to defend himself. If you take that and extrapolate to the international stage... Suddenly the call for a 'proportionate' response makes more sense.
On a related note... Don't you find it cute, that all these people who support the above thinking, are like, 'Israel shouldn't do this! Israel shouldn't do that!' but no one is giving ANY real alternative on how to deal with Hamas? I guess the Jews should do nothing and just sit on their asses and wait for another incursion
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AFAIK, the problem with annexation is what to do with Palestinians living there. There are two options, both of them bad:
So even if Israel wants it (and they probably do), annexing those lands for good, could be a suicidal move for them. Not that other options are much better...
Unfortunately, the first thing that gets distorted by ideology is objectivity and the truth. It's hard to objectively analyze Communism and say it sucks when you believe it's the best system in the world. You'll always find excuses to justify 'the bad.' And if the numbers say your ideology sucks, they MUST HAVE BEEN manipulated by evil [put your scapegoat here]! And if you ever show signs that you stopped believing in it, the system will make sure to crush and silence you.
For you or me, what Palestinians are doing is objectively idiotic and self-destructive. But they're so blinded that they won't see it anytime soon, if ever. To break out of the loop they would have to admit they were wrong all along, and no one likes to do that...
I would argue that it can happen - especially if/when Iran gets the nukes - but... then what? If Palestinians think that all the countries that attacked Israel would be like, 'OK, Jews are gone, let's create free Palestine!' they'll be for a rude awakening...
The question is, will the USA support Israel, no matter what. Seeing all these 'educated idiots' roaming the streets, I have my doubts... Yeah, I know that dropping support for Israel has been the recurring theme in American politics for years, but I fear that we're approaching the time when it can really happen - especially if these people marching the streets have anything to say about it...
#queers-for-palestine, #chickens-for-KFC, #hamas-for-noble-peace-prize
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New York is like this, and unsurprisingly, crime keeps getting worse there. It's why my wife and I left, and why my parents are going to leave soon. You're completely right that these laws allowed the criminal to do whatever they want, and I have so many stories to tell just from my own extended family and the businesses we own/people we work with... but that's a topic for another day.
Considering most of these people are against Israel existing, I imagine what they really want to tell Israel to do is pack up and leave the Middle East
Honestly, I don't know what to do either in the short-term. Any attempt to remove Hamas is going to cause massive civilian death unless you somehow get everyone to evacuate all the way to the south. It'd be awesome if we could force Egypt to take in the Gazan civilians for the time being... but good luck with that.
So basically the same issue Europe is dealing with
Two states with guarantees from both that they will stop attacking each other would be ideal... but good luck ever getting that. Jewish West Bank settlers won't ever want to stop, and surveys keep showing that most Palestinian civilians only consider victory to be the full removal of all Israelis from the Middle East.
This is of the few topics where I'm super pessimistic like you because of how much I hate religion and how it makes conflicts illogical and unsolvable. At this point, I wouldn't be opposed to giving each side a dozen or so 100 megaton nukes and watching the show
What's funny is that without the West and our "weak" ways and values, Palestine would've been genocided off the map at any other point in history. I love explaining to hardcore Palestine supporters that the U.S. and Western values are the only things keeping Israel on a leash. These people won't ever admit they're wrong because we keep them safe enough from the worst consequences of history.
The majority of even the Democratic party and its most leftist politicians are solidly pro-Israel. Even if 80% of the citizens are anti-Israel by 2050, I don't see the government's position changing at all. America's long-term foreign policy barely changing despite who the president is or how the people vote.
The bigger issue is violence among the civilians. A big reason I love America is that we can leave behind 3rd world bullshit here. An Indian, Pakistani, Russian and Ukrainian can all be friends here with zero issue. It's common here. The biggest exception are those who are pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli, which is why I'm worried. We already had a 6 year old Muslim boy and the leader of a synagogue stabbed to death. As someone who has family who remembers the India-Pakistani partition if 1947, this worries me.
Doesn't help that I also have family in India who may or may not have killed people in the 1947 partition. Third world gonna third world
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Man, please don’t fall into the trap called, ‘If it weren’t for religion, there would be world peace.’ This is coming from a religious person so obviously I am a bit biased, but… IMHO religion is getting a lot of bad rap and is used as a scapegoat in situations when people just want to find some excuse for acting like a-holes… You don’t need religion to start an illogical and unsolvable conflict. History shows that if you want to attack your neighbor any excuse will do – just look at WW2, Communism, or Ukraine, if you want something more recent
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Religion is like any other tool – it can be used for good or evil. When Poland was under Commie rule, our religion played a huge part in keeping the country and its identity together. And when Karol Wojtyła became the Pope… well, let’s just put it this way:
pbs.twimg.com/media/FKrKOvzacAExTwy?format=jpg&name=900x900
Spoiler alert! Polish guy won
Obviously, in the case of the Middle East people use religion to pour fuel to the flames at the moment, but… I wouldn’t be surprised if, in the end, it was religion that would end this conflict. Whether that happens in 5, 15, or 500 years, is a different story.
And… keep in mind, that a good portion of people chanting, 'From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free!' are ‘educated’ atheists who, in theory, should use pure logic… Answer yourself how well that works for them
.
Um… you do know Israel has nukes, right
? Or rather, they most likely have them. Every time they’re asked they’re like, “*smirk* Of course we don’t have any nukes*wink* *wink* 
.” Unfortunately, nukes not gonna do them any good in this situation.
On the other hand… if Iran keeps on f*cking around, they may learn the hard way that ‘Never Again!’ is not an empty slogan. I hope that won’t happen, though…
On the one hand, that’s good to hear. On the other hand… it shows how people in power, are disconnected from their voters. I’m not sure I should be happy or pissed off
I would be more worried about the rest of the people if I were you. The cycle of violence when one group of people tries to eliminate another has been going on forever in all parts of the world. People who are friends may turn against each other in a matter of years, all it takes is a misunderstanding here, using some soft force there… and before you know it your neighbor is trying to burn you and your family...
It seems to be a part of human nature and the only thing that seems to keep that at bay is talking to people who are different, have different views, skin color, religion, language, etc., and try to come up with a compromise. Sadly, even in the Western world, calm conversation of people with different views seems a dying tradition.
This is what terrifies me way more than what is happening in the Middle East or Ukraine. If the Western world keeps on degenerating, with people taking sides instead of talking it out, it may fall apart one day. If the West goes into chaos, the rest of the World will follow, and then we’ll have WW3 or something similar.
Not a nice perspective if you ask me, and more real than ever
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True, but religion does make compromise harder than it'd be between non-religious opponents. It's nearly impossible to have a rational discussion with Israeli West Bank settlers who'll never stop for religious reasons and Jihadists who want a global caliphate.
Also, I 100% consider ideologies like communism, fascism and much of modern social justice to be religions. Many communists will have no debate points except "Marx said" or "you don't properly understand communism" the same way religious folks do. Just like how quite a few U.S. Christians stupidly don't consider tribal beliefs to be a "real religion", I find it dumb that certain ideologies aren't considered religion when they're primarily faith-based.
But "real athiesm" have never been tried
Seriously though, like I said above, I consider them religious. Only this time they're religious as leftists, commies, social justice activists, or whatever they're personal ideology is. They just replaced their parents' faith for another faith. I see no effective difference than a Muslim blindly believing in their holy book versus a college student blindly believing in some crazy leftist college textbook.
If you don't like that response: Many of these athiests' lack of religion is less logic and more a rebellion against their parents and the West. Adding to that, they often have zero clue how much of the 3rd world is. Many of these people legitimately think a free Palestine would be a democratic, secular nation.
Oh, I know. But we need to give more to the whole region
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For the record, I don't have much issue with this since every group tries their hardest to lobby/bribe people in power.
Tbh, I hate the "West is falling" talk online. If we're falling, then everywhere is on earth is already deep within the inner core.
- Africa can barely feed its exploding population and continues to be highly unstable
- Much of the Middle East is highly unstable, are net food importers, aren't diversified outside oil which will eventually run out, etc.
- China has a severely aging population
- Russia is also aging and a paper tiger outside of nukes
- Japan/S. Korea have a massive fertility crisis
- India is succumbing to Hindu nationalism and ethnic issues
Europe has a problem integrating its immigrants, but the U.S. doesn't, meaning integration is possible. The West has issues, but I'll take our problems over the those from the rest of the world. Even militarily, we're god-tier. The only real issue is that China, Russia and possibly Iran have nukes.
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No argument there, but then the question becomes what is not a religion and whether something like that even exists. Of course, people will tell you that, 'science is not a religion' so all you have to do is follow 'the' science, but:
I'm starting to believe that outside of certain STEM fields where there is mathematical proof, science itself is becoming more and more religious by the day. Also, let's be honest... everyone has biases no matter how open-minded we try to be. Frankly, I would argue everyone has some religion in him, whether they know it or not, but I have a feeling you'll disagree
... and people ask me why I'm such a pessimistic person
Hey, if you want to give nukes to somebody give them to us! We will put them to good use
That's still pretty sad/irritating if you ask me, but... yeah. It is what it is.
At the moment, this is true, and I agree. Also, I believe the West - and to be clear, by that I mean the USA, G7, EU, Japan, South Korea, and a few other countries - still has time to tackle its issues. That said, what I fear is the 'inner rot' coming from people who don't understand how the world works, and who think everyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. Add 'messiah syndrome' to that, and irrational fear, and you get a dangerous mix.
When I see young people in the US, UK, Canada, and a few other places, acting like a light version of German Brownshirts - trying to intimidate people, shut them down, and even attack them physically (especially Jews after the seventh of October) ... it scares me
. For years, they might have seemed like a bunch of harmless idiots, but young Commies and Nazis also seemed harmless...
Obviously, this is a very dark vision(hey, what did you expect coming from me
), but keep in mind, that the crazy people you see on campuses right now, will be the heads of our Governments in the next 5-10-15 years. Will there be enough safeguards to stop them in case they go loco? I'm not so sure, but let's hope so...
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This is definitely subjective, but I consider an ideology to be a religion when it's based on faith and can't be disproven. Communism is pure faith based on books by Marx and other leftie thinkers. And any attempt to discuss it's violent history is met with "not real communism" or "you just don't understand it properly."
It's the exact same responses I'd get talking to many Palestinians about Islam, funny enough. Agnosticism might be the exact example of not a religion. Basical liberalism and American conservatism aren't religion at all either IMO.
I'm an indivualist, and I would definitely classify that as religious based on my definition. We humans are clearly drawn to believing in ideas based on nothing but faith and belief. That's not necessarily a bad thing since religions are not equal. A nomadic warlord whose religion believes in violent conquest is clearly bad, while a religion that believes in pacifism is clearly much better.
Soon, Comrade
My favorite story is how one of my Jewish childhood friends used to go door to door in New York City to talk about how American whites could learn about racial equality from people of color. I told him that while there are still plenty of racist white people, cultures from India, the Middle East and East Asia are often incredibly racist. I told him how my own language's word for Africans is the same word for demon lol. I told him about the Arab slave trade, Chinese racism, Sunni/Shia divide, etc. He basically had his worldview shattered from realizing that 3rd world cultures aren't peace-loving hippies.
I'm also scared of this. My own plan is to get to be able to be as far away from areas controlled by those people as possible. There's a reason me and many other people left New York City in the past few years. Basically, I'm doing the stereotypical Asian/Indian strategy in America. Ignore racial politics, act relatively normal, and focus on myself and my family.
We Asians have our own problems here, but we're lucky that we blend with the background since we're not white, black or Latino.
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To me, agnostics always seemed like the only 'real' atheists precisely because they're not religious about not believing, and do not try to preach their worldview. People who are like, "You know, maybe there is a God, maybe not. I'm just not convinced given the evidence." are usually very interesting to talk to after a few drinks
Not to derail the conversation but... I would argue that those are examples of two equally dangerous extremes. I mean, pacifism sounds nice on paper, but to adopt it in practice would mean to become harmless... do that and your enemies will come down and strike you down. Heck, it's one of the reasons why Europe relies on the USA and NATO so much! For years, we were told, "We need to keep on reducing our armies! We don't need them! The global economy is the best warrant of peace!" If only Putin got the memo...
IMHO, instead of preaching pacifism to young people, we should teach them more of these:
"A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a very dangerous man who has that under voluntary control." - Jordan Peterson.
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." - Jim "Mad Dog" Mattis.
Or if one is old school:
"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
Old as dirt and still going strong... unfortunately.
Honestly, I hope not. I'm a fan of Fallout, but I would rather not turn Europe into a radioactive wasteland
See, this is related to what I wrote above. We're teaching this crap to people - that every culture is the same, has the same values, and wants the same things. No wonder you then get, 'Gays for Gaza!', 'Queers for Palestine!' and similar. These people were taught that everyone just wanted peace. They don't understand that they would be thrown from a rooftop if they ever placed their foot in Gaza (although, the rumor has it that Hamas temporarily stopped that policy because after Israeli bombardment they don't have any tall buildings left
). Heck, just five or so years ago, I was amongst those people, blaming Israel for everything, so I know how insidious that thinking is...
I don't know how, but we have to start reprogramming young people because it is going to tear us apart. But how to do that... I have no goddamn clue
And stay like that, damn it! Let idiots like me, worry about all the crap, instead of you!
#anxious-idiots-for-peace
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That's basically my position. I obviously have no way of knowing if there is a God or creator, but my guess is no, due to the lack of evidence.
Perhaps pacifism wasn't the example the use. I was just trying to show two cultures/religions that aren't equal. I actually fully agree with your attack on pacifism.
*This* recent tweet of someone legitimately arguing that LGBT people are as likely to die in uber-liberal Massachusetts as in Gaza was the most infuriating moment for me. I wish I could find the original tweet since I saw it a few days ago. A large percentage of Americans in general have no idea how the rest of the world is. On one side you have folks who think Africa has no cities and everyone lives in huts, and all brown people are terrorists. And on the other hand you have people who think racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism and inequality only started due to colonialism due to white people.
The majority of Americans still have no idea about the Arab slave trade, for example. I have no idea how to fix this other than having people live in other nations among the people for a few months at least. I learned a lot by living in rural India for a while with barely any electricity, and then visiting places like Kuwait which disgusted me with its sexism even as a child.
Haha. I just wanna beat this damn Elhers Danlos, finally begin my life for real, and be in a position where I never have to worry about politics. And if my kids are politically crazy, then that's on me.
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I wish I were surprised but... after this week's hearings of your college presidents and their inability to say that calling for a genocide of Jews breaks campus' anti-hate rules, it doesn't surprise me. Frankly, at this point, I'm starting to believe nothing will surprise me...
It's like we're witnessing the beginning of the 1930-ties all over again, except this time, we have social media to spread it around the world 
.
If only people could channel that anger into something constructive, like developing cancer treatments or new fuel or... coming here and arguing why Celestia is the best pony! The world would be so much better.
Oh, well, we're living in interesting times, that's for sure...