First off, I promised one of the admins to be more respectful in my debating technique. So from now on, I will only attack ideas instead of factions.

Now to the issue.

As history has shown us, communism is a complete and total failure of an idea because it leaves a power vacuum that a despot tends to get sucked into. But what about socialism?

According to the Marriam-Webster online dictionary, socialism is:

Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

(Link to definition)

Why this won't work is because the individual has no regard for the collective. To prove this, ask yourself, "Would I pay lower taxes if I could?" If you instinctively answered "yes," then you're not a socialist.

Here is some of my personal experiences with "socialist."

So my sister is a nurse who is trying to help people get better. She gets this fat-assed woman who says, "Your tax dollars are paying for my hospital visit." What ungrateful idiot says that to the woman trying to help her?

Another point: So I'm trying to save up for a two-year proselyting mission for my Church (LDS by the way), and I'm talking with some non-members about it. They say, "Can't you go now? Doesn't your Church pay for it?" I tried explaining that the individual members pay for it, but they just didn't want to get the fact that I didn't want put a financial strain on my Church so I could serve a mission.

Plus, the government tends to suck at running things. Fanny May and Freddy Mac anyone? Or how about Solyndra (the skeleton of that place is literally less than an hour from my house)? Maybe we could also site the IRS scandal?

Anyone still think the government (especially the federal) can run anything?

1549989

1549989 1549991

1549989 No offence but both Capitalism and Communism are giant failiure...With captilism it leads to a greedy and corrupt system, with communism it will lead to a poor financial living...Socialism has worked out pretty well so far and as long as you regulate it, it can work.

As a swedish person I can say that distributing the wealth so that a overwhelming majority of the population live middle class instead it being, 40-40-19-1 %

We pay on average 35% in taxes and when I heard of people in the U.S giving only 1-5% in taxes, it blew my mind...You cant finance a goverment and a country like that...And I know that people from the U.S will look at us like we are the crazy ones for paying so much money in taxes. Well let me say it this way.

If you/your wife gets pregnant, or your child ends up in a car accident and you don't have the money to pay for the treatment...You get turfed to free care. which is completely swamped. But here you don't have to spend 6 full months of sallery to pay for your child/wife's treatment. The only thing bad with socialism is that you cant get rich. but the only thing good with socialism is you cant get poor (Homeless or barley enough for food)

1550059>>1549989

Check this out a comparison between Sweden, New Zeland, and the US on universal health care.here

1550129 Capitalism is the calling for greed and corruption...You have to admit that the U.S government has ben bought out by Big corporations...

1550129

"There can never be perfect society, because a perfect society requires perfect people. Perfect people however don't exist"

Wow. My teacher said something really close to it.

"The perfect government is a dictatorship. Unfortunately, there are no perfect dictators."

DEATH IS A PREFERABLE ALTERNATIVE TO COMMUNISM.

1549989

First off, I promised one of the admins to be more respectful in my debating technique.

*glances at thread title*

So from now on, I will only attack ideas instead of factions

Ehhhhh.... Okay.

Here is some of my personal experiences with "socialist."

I have to say, I don't really much care for anecdotal evidence.

Plus, the government tends to suck at running things. Fanny May and Freddy Mac anyone? Or how about Solyndra (the skeleton of that place is literally less than an hour from my house)? Maybe we could also site the IRS scandal?

I'd change that to people suck at running things, or organizations suck at running things. I don't get why governments seem to be put in a special category of their own, especially since there are so many different types of governments.

Personally, I don't think pure socialism or pure capitalism is a good idea, but a system using parts of both... Well, that could be pretty okay.

1549989

Why Socialism Will Never Work

Except for the time it did.

Australia is primarily Socialist (established via voting democratically) and it's economy remained stable, even growing slightly stronger, while everyone else went into recession over the last few years. We've been this way since we became an independant country (via popular vote).

Do your research, mate.

1549989

Actually, the government doesn't suck at everything. Just some things. After all, who built our highways? And our bridges?

How about NASA? The Postal Service? The IRS? The FDA? The military?

And that's just off the top of my head. They do a pretty good job of running a heck of a lot of things, so saying they couldn't possibly get it right is a presumptuous argument. Yes, some of those organizations have the occasional problem... but overall, they actually perform far, faaaaar better than most public or privately held business do in terms of efficiency.

I know this, because I'm a financial analyst by trade and I've had to work with both kinds of organization.

However, I can't disagree with you that pure socialism is a bad system... because all pure systems (extremes) tend to fail. The key to a system that works is flexibility, which extremes don't allow for. It's gotta be able to regulate or de-regulate according to changing times and circumstance

After all, you can't possibly argue that all government regulation is bad. Otherwise, you're arguing that the same regulations that prevent child labor, wanton environmental damage, corporate abuse... all kinds of abuse, really... are somehow unequivocally bad for us. We need some regulation to protect everyone from these abuses (incidental or purposeful), and to minimize the negative effects of business cycles (recessions).

Similarly a system that is 100% government run is putting far too many eggs in one basket, and tends to limit growth and hamper innovation.

So... to restate my point: the key is a happy middle-ground. Regulation is a tool that can make our lives better. And, just like any tool, it can be misused or misapplied.

1550182
>corporations controlling the government
>corporations practically being government
>people controlling other people
>somehow this is capitalism
I don't follow.

On paper, Socialism sounds like the perfect system. Where everyone has a chance at life, and if in a state of need, others can help you with your monetary problems. If it sounds too good to be true, it might as well be. Everyone agrees that an utopia is impossible, since nothing's perfect.
People are too greedy for a system like this to work. Most people would not agree to share the money they earn to help people who didn't do anything to deserve it, except perhaps if he/she broke a leg and really needs help.
This kind of system, as well as Communism can never work as a government. A country is too large for everyone to have the same ideals. These systems are more suited to a family or a small community. If you look at those systems, it's pretty much what we do with our families everyday. We share the money, we save money we earn or been given to and if someone has an accident everyone helps with what they can spare. But does this example work for an entire nation?
Of course Social Democracy is popular. But Social Democracy is not Socialism. While in SD you do share your money with the state so it can pay for Health Care, Schools, Law Enforcement, etc. in the end, it's Capitalism again, because the state can't force you to pay more than your taxes.

1550059
The half of the US that pays taxes, pays a grand total of around 40% in taxes (just the income tax alone, at all levels). There is a reason why people in the US are claiming that we are "Taxed Enough Already".

And yes, you are crazy for paying all of that in taxes

PS: The US government hasn't been bought out by big business. Those two groups despise each other. Saying the government has been bought out is mostly Anti-American propaganda with no real basis (though I do support lobbyist reform).

1550354
Take it from a former soldier, the US government can barely run the military. There is so much bureaucratic BS that almost nothing can get done without five months worth of paperwork being filled out. It's only when we get in the field that we actually shine, which is where someone who was smart (probably got promoted to some General rank, then promptly lost his smart-ness) decided that they can cut down on the amount of red tape for field work. Now, we only have to fill out two months worth of paperwork.

Other than that, though, you're spot on.

1550360
This.

1550370
THIS

1550470

That General still works for the government. And the military runs pretty efficiently, even with all that red tape.

You should see a lot of the businesses I've had to work with. I work for a consulting company. I have had people tell me when I asked "what happened to the actual payment for this invoice?", I swear to god I've been told multiple times "I don't know."

They make a product. They sell a product. They ship a product. THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THE CHECK IS THAT PAYED FOR IT.

Private and Public business, for as much shit as we give governmental red tape, often run on hopes, dreams, and a "zero fucks" policy, not actual good business practices.

In other words, where the government barely runs the military, a large number of business don't actually run half as well.

1550470
Have you ever heard of The Capitalism Institute? It's a bit ad-heavy, but it's an interesting read. (Also on Tumblr)

EDIT: Really ad-heavy.

1550370

Socialism sounds like the perfect system. Where everyone has a chance at life, and if in a state of need, others can help you with your monetary problems.

Thats exactly what it is...My mom came from a third world country while raising a daughter and then had two more children. She worked as a janitor but could live as a average middle class. She worked from midnight to dawn and helped us wake up and send us off to school. Every day for the past 12 years. I'd say Socialism is a perfect if you want to raise a family and Capitalism is great for reaching a high financial class if you have something people want.

I visited the U.S once. A friend of mine was ill and when I got to the hospital waited in the waiting room I cought a glimpse of a frantic mother who was going from credit card to credit card trying to pay for her son's treatment...I was 15 then and it felt like I was watching someone slowly kill that poor woman's family...Even if she could pay for his treatment...She wouldn't have much left for the aftermath...It sometimes keeps me up to night as I see her shaking and terrified..

I'm sorry but I'd rather go with Socialism. Where everyone has a chance in life.

And if you're still not convinced here is a very small list of a bounch of very expensive stuff we dont have to pay for because of our tax system.

Dentist (18-), Hospital, school, Collage (YES even collage/university) There are more but I cant think of them from the top of my head.

1550470

1550059
Well, you're talking about a small country with good education and a functional state run by competent people.
Believing that socialism would work any better than capitalism based on this is, well, dumb.
It's pretty much a fluke.

You know, what most people see as people being greedy and egoistical, I see as an opportunity.
People are naturally greedy, we want to be better than others, we want to own better things than others, we want to have the best looking mate we can afford and so on.

Capitalism doesn't tip-toe around this and seize it for progress.
If you do something good, you win more money so you're incentivated to do your best if you even want to have a chance at a good life.

Not that the system is perfect, why would it be? But accepting and rearing human nature will always be safer than relying on others, and when you are running a country you'd be just plain horrible if you were to risk something for some personal ideal.

Also, Sweden sucks hard.
No, I'm being serious here.

1550578
I'm not saying that Socialism is a bad thing. In my opinion, so far it's the best option available from the three, Capitalism pushes all the money to rich people and Communism prevents people from getting the money they deserve.
My opinion is that true Socialism is impossible. People are too greedy for a system where everyone shares what they own. If you want the real kind, then people have to be willing to share their money for a stranger who happens to be unable to afford something.

1550511
Tell that to my dad, who was in the USN for a while. He got dropped off the pay roll about five times in one year. Then there was the fun time where the US Government lost my birth certificate...And I had to pay to get them a new one...

Oh, yeah, I know all about private firms. I own one. Luckily, I'm the one that keeps track of all of the paperwork...and receipts...and invoices...and balance sheets...and if it's a form, or anything that can be confused with paperwork...Gotta love being a small business owner

1550532
Good lord...That place might as well be one giant ad...

1550578
There is this thing that we have called insurance. It's really useful for paying those high-priced types of items. Monthly premiums are a bit annoying, but if you work for a good business, you get solid insurance from free to cheap. Then there's medicare and medicaid, which are both government entitlements, and some of the worst insurers that I've ever had the displeasure of running across. I thought five months worth of paperwork was bad while in the Army...

Though, for college/universities, the best ones I've ever went to were always private. No government assistance. Expensive, but worth it for the career I'm going into. Besides, not everyone needs a college degree (in fact, very few actually need those degrees). Went to a job search place, and even entry-level jobs needed a BS or BA degree nowadays. Why do I need that to flip burgers?

1550641
THIS

1550659 1550578

Why would u say such a thing about us

We just want your love

1550733 University is completely useless, but just the fact that you have it on you resama will increse your chances of getting highered. That is why people do it, not for the knowledge it gives.

1550709 Tis a true statement! Yet right now socialism is the best system that works for us. Most of europe and the most finacially stable countries and healthiest countries in the world are what they are because of it..Hell even Cuba's average middle class was incresed by 45% 9 months after they introduced it. But the problem with socialism is that its hard to become Rich

1550838

University is completely useless, but just the fact that you have it on you resama will increse your chances of getting highered. That is why people do it, not for the knowledge it gives.

That's the reason it's so expensive. Everyone treats it like a second high school, when it is really supposed to be a specialist trade school for people who really want to soar.

1550958 But to pass it you have to study, so you will learn your stuff anyways...By telling ourselves that it will increase our chances it increases our morale to finish it. In Sweden we on average graduate at the age of 18-19 and then we attend collage until 24-25. then one year of being an intern...After that adult life is literally the next step.

1550349
Having a continents worth of natural resources and only 22 million people helps.

Socialism doesn't work because when you put a gun to people's heads and tell them to support the community or have the police bust down their door and put them away for tax evasion, they tend to get angry. And the people who get angry are the ones who have money, and they'll move to a non-socialist country.

Did I mention its wrong to force people to do anything?

1550975
And then you rack up a 40,000 dollar bill for a mediocre job...

Unless you live in Sweden, where your neighbors pick up your bill. And everyone else's bill. And you do too.

1549989 I would rather live in a place where everyone has a small house then one where 1 guy has a castle and the rest are dying of hunger.

1549989

Government organizations being mismanaged is mainly because America is very, very large. Many European countries, such as Switzerland, have fairly socialist governments, and it works for them because their nation is relatively small and they can more easily manage their resources tightly.

The U.S., however, is a very large country that stretches across the North American continent from East to West, and has a much larger population that most nations. America in many ways would benefit from having the states be allowed a bit more autonomy of the national government, most progressive movements make much faster progress at the state and municipal levels than at the national level.

1550975
College isn't necessary for 60% of the population. Who it is useful for is people interested in the hard sciences, mathematics, the humanities, rhetoric, or medicine. Everything else would be far better learned in a trade school or with a apprenticeship. However, we as a society have mandated that higher education is necessary for all, which belies the fact that if you do not have a backbone for your society of manual laborers and other necessary but rough positions, you will fail, which is a lesson the US is learning pretty hard right now with a lack of manufacturing capability, even in the much-touted military sector. For instance, we have built a Main Battle Tank since the 1980's.

1550838

Most of Europe

Like all those riots you guys had, and with the EU going down the drain. Yeah, that's a point in socialism's favor. Europe is an example as to why Socialism doesn't work. For awhile, everyone is happy , but all it takes is that one person (Greece, I'm looking at you) to drag everyone down with them.

Cuba. You used Cuba as a example of Socialism working?! Yes, the middle class was raised by 45%. And it stayed that way. for 55 years. No progress, no innovation, just a dictatorship that oppressed the people. For example, only recently has the Cuban government allowed the average person to own a cellphone. Before it was illegal to even own one. yeah, Cuba isn't looking like a nice place to live right now, especially considering all those political refugees stories about how the Castros run the government...

1550958 Oh and funding half of the worlds military budget and the single biggest privacy invasion in the history of mankind is a better thing? Yes in Scandinavia we share everyone's bills with eachother through taxes but to be honest The U.S's goverment spendind is by far the biggest money burning movement ever...

Here is another little tidbit.

1550838
Well, Sweden has on its favor that it prioritized education like nobody did before, but this lead to stupid people with big titles, tons of words under their brows and no values to try and get a place on the government.

This is why you have ridiculous things like gender-free kindergartens.
Enforcing the blank slate as far as it can be stretched is possibly the worst idea any sociologist ever came up with.

I'm sure that the people is not as bad as the idiots leading are as always, but that can be said for most countries.
We are as good as we can afford ourselves to be.
Talking from experience.

edit: oh fuck I didn't noticed.
You used fucking Cuba as a point in favor. Cuba!
I- just - eh... fuck it, you're dumb

1551172 You got me there. I don't agree with Sweden going way out of their way to be P.C

1550709 that doesn't mean we can't build a more equal society, humans are not 100% individuals or 100% collectivists, we are both, but some systems and societies push more to one side, in other words, we can't have a perfect capitalist or socialist society, but we can have something close, on both sides.

1551165
No, it's not. Why are you bringing it up? Like, I fail to see how this is anything other than just ragging on 'Murica.

1551125
I've noticed that for burger flipping and even manual labor you're asked to have at least full high school.
Having full high school education shouldn't be a requisite for manual labor.

Some people just didn't had the opportunities and they are to their circumstances, why would you deny them a chance to work when they want to work just because you want a janitor who is well-versed in algebra?
What the hell, people?

1551195 I'm not ragging on Murica. You are ragging on Sweden for the fact that everyone is paying everyone. I am ragging on their government spending and the fact that you would criticize Sweden when our government spends it on infrastructure.

But lets stop this blame game before it gets out of hand.

1551239
No no no, but education is the most important thing, even if it requires people to be overqualified for most jobs in the world leading to a surplus of businessmen who end up actually doing nothing and are superfluous just so corporations can keep up job numbers while manufacturing goes down the shitter.

1551242

I'm not ragging on Murica. You are ragging on Sweden for the fact that everyone is paying everyone.

I am.

I am ragging on their government spending and the fact that you would criticize Sweden when our government spends it on infrastructure.

I criticize the US's stupid spending as well.

1551264
I know, but what can someone who didn't had the opportunity to study but has to work right now do?
I've know of people that resorted to crime and gangs because they couldn't get a job and couldn't pay a school.
What of them?

edit: protip: everything needs to be regulated accordingly.

1551323
That was sarcasm.

1551331
No tone on the interents bro.

1551191
Actually, the Socialism is the middle ground. The extremes we were talking about were Capitalism and Communism.
And Social Democracy is that middle ground between Capitalism and Socialism. Some of our taxes goes to funding Schools, Hospitals, etc. while being low enough that we can get rich.

1551897 well, for me socialism is a group of ideologies, social democracy being one of them, but you have a point.

1551158 cuban living standards are supperior to most of the capitalist world, just saying.

1550255
The Government gets it's own exclusive corner because it likes to yell the loudest that it has exclusive claim to trying to run things. That is realivive to any government, not just ours. Anytime there is a concentration of power, the power holders tend to believe that it makes them more knowledgeable on how things work than anyone else.

1552288
The point I was making was that I don't get why people lump all kinds of different systems under one label (that label being "The Government"). There are all kinds of different governments, many of them completely different from each other. "The Government" doesn't make sense because it implies there is only one kind of government. "The Government" is not a monolithic organization. Governments come in all shapes and sizes.

Likewise, I don't get why other organizations DON'T get the same treatment.

Anytime there is a concentration of power, the power holders tend to believe that it makes them more knowledgeable on how things work than anyone else.

I don't see why this would not apply to something like corporations or really ANY organizational structure in existence.

The problems of "The Government" are not unique to "The Government". They occur in ANY organizational structure composed of a significant number of humans.

1551960
This is a joke, right?

Please tell me you're joking.

1549989
Of course I would pay lower taxes if I could. But I can't. Because that would collapse the society I live in, and I like society.
And how do you come to the conclusion that people have no regard for the collective? Don't we want to see the people around us happy? I don't want to see beggars and homeless people in the street. I don't want to see people starving. I don't want to see people in pain. So I pay my taxes. And the streets remain clean, the roads remain whole, the hospitals function, the schools keep educating. And people... To say that everyone is happy would be a lie. and some abuse the system, others cannot be helped by the system, and some transcend the system. But it is there, and most can use it to further themselves.
Capitalist or socialist, you still pay for what you get. Just in different ways.

But in the end. Neither capitalism nor socialism works. There are no capitalist nations. There are no socialist nations.
Because neither of these things are forms of government. They are just parts of a whole. And all governments have part of both.
Every nation is a compromise. But we do not like compromises. We like absolutes. And so, we take sides. Pick a team, a color. And political debate turns into a spectacle of contrasting colors. Because we are thick.

I feel rather strongly for social democracy. It works pretty well in my home country. Some people get rich. Others do not. But few children starve. Few go without education. If you want a good life, it is there for the taking. There is progress and stability. We all take a small piece of the burden that comes with being a society. Some carry more than others, and everyone claims to carry the most. But in the end, we carry on.