370536
Well, G&C2 did declare that he and I seem to be in large agreement about Greengrass, so I think I'm justified to believe I've got a pretty good grasp of what the author intended.

Morally speaking there is no real appropriate or properly definable punishment. People/ponies shouldn't be punished just for having bad morals, not in any conventional sense at least. As for legally, what is law but a bunch of words on paper. It's all just politics, and that's a game Greengrass is very good at manipulating to his own benefit. Sure maybe, he's made countless nameless individuals suffer, but like him, they are all just fictional entities, so there is no real miscarriage of justice in letting him get away with it.

No, the kind of punishment that really matters most here is whatever is THEMATICALLY appropriate, as well as whatever provides the most opportunities for telling interesting/entertaining stories down the line. Stripping him of everything he has and tossing him penniless into the gutter or a dank dungeon might be what he DESERVES, but it would seem such a waste of a good character.

And of course Corona will be showing up again. That was the entire point of her escape at the end of LNLD. It's all a matter of when and where.

Oh, and as for Greengrass being selfish and controlling, the latter definitely, but the former is more questionable. Also, he doesn't see his own father as a failure for being selfless, but for never building anything of what Greengrass would define as lasting value. That's what Greengrass wants when he says he means to turn all of Equestria onto his garden, that he wants to build something that will outlive himself and leave a permanent legacy in the world.

370567
I don't recall this but then again we have posted allot so i may have just forgotten... then again we are writing fanfiction here, heh the home of alternative character interpretation

It would be more the punishment for the actions that having nor morals led him to do I.E blackmail etc. Technically true but i am talking about in universe and there, if he does get away I'm just saying there has to be a good reason for it. A good example of what I am talking about would actually be star wars, Luke had a hand in the deaths of a lot of Imperial troopers but he gave darth vader a second chance because the dudes his dad that is a in universe reason on the other hand no one in canon has any reason to let greengrass get away with hurting nameless ponies/octavia.
Personally i think the idea of ending up stripped of everything and ruined/imprisoned via politics would be very thematically appropriate considering what he does.

Well that really depends I consider him an all-right one season villain but nothing spectacular, but that's just me.

True but you said Corona burning down his garden I', just saying we have no reason to think she'd be back or that she'd bother.

Ahh again we cannot agree it seems, I take it solely as him being selfish you take what he says as being more in Greengrases mind for the good of all, if anything it;s probably both.

370587
Post #107 or so.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to deny that losing everything and ending up in a gutter/dungeon as being thematically appropriate, I even said it might well be what he personally deserves. Just that it seems wasteful from a character perspective if that were to be where his story ends. I'll agree that his value as a villain is probably only good for about a season, but his value as a recurrent character in an altered role afterwords is something that might be worth holding onto.

Nor am I really saying that the L6 should have any reason to forgive him (though this is still MLP:FiM so forgiveness is an important theme). It seems to me though that story wise Greengrass is more so a character that warrants a [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolAndUnusualPunishment Cool and Unusual Punishment rather than anything so conventional as mere jail time. The dramatic turnabout of going from Big Bad of the S1 story arc, to little more than a pocket ally of Trixie's rising political career just seems far too appropriate to me.

Oh, and I'm not necessarily saying Corona would intentionally target his garden in particular, but that it could well end up as collateral damage whenever she does get around to showing up again.

Like I said, I just think he needs to become aware of just how much responsibility his position actually holds. That while it may be nothing but a game to him, it is somethng far more important to the average pony in Equesria.

370615

I suppose that's one f the key disagreements i just don't think him interesting enough to hold onto at all in a way that doesn't seem damaging to the story.

Story telling wise it would be relatively appropriate though i still liked my screwed over by the dirty politics he thought himself a master of would be pretty great too.
All I am saying is if that happens i think there has it be an excellent in story reason for it, I don't think Luna or a judge not on his payroll is going to look over everything she knows about him and what he's done and decide that being left a loser is an appropriate punishment.

370617
I always felt he did realise that his first few lines in the story mean the at least understood the affect his and other nobles power had in other ponies lives, it seems more the whole empathy thing is lacking which is not that surprising studies have shown that the more power you hold over others the less you care about them.

370624

He is aware that he has some influence on the whole of Equestria.

What he does not realize is how deep that imfluence actually runs, or why he should be responsible with this influence.

370624
In all honesty, I don't want him to go to jail. In jail, Greengrass could build a little prison empire. I almost feel the most damaging thing would be to leave him out of jail, utterly unable to get back into the Game due to having embarassed himself royally (and possibly in front of royalty) but not stripped of any land or rank or such.

Also, while I don't mind the idea of him being fundamentally okay with being outmaneuvered, I think that at least at the close of season 1 he shouldn't be so okay with it. As much as Greengrass might be the kind to look back at a situation and think "clever girl," in the moment of his defeat his first reaction should probably be more akin to outrage. Mostly because, if he's defeated, he should visibly show it by losing his calm demeanor and his fundamentally jovial attitude.

Or let me put it another way: I introduced that truth poison, the truth is a scourge, for a reason.

370638
I'd have to disagree his decisions opinion on his father and others in power who aren't as cuthroat as him seem to imply he knows full well how much influence he has and the full affects of his power and that he just doesn't care so long as he's ok, but that's just me.

370652
I wouldn't be bothered if he didn't go to prison it just depends on what the actual reason for him not going that might bother me, though i still think it would be painful difficult and humiliating and all round unpleasant for him even if he did eventually get a little empire behind bars.
I'm just against the idea of keeping him in the story and out of prison solely because he has a name.
Though permanent house arrest could work too heh or maybe serving as Lunas gardener.

I agree with that most people could theoretically get over something like that enough to loo back on it with appreciation, but when he does fail I am really looking forward to a villainous BSOD.

370674
I'm thinking less BSOD and more a computer trying to perform too many operations at once but completely unable to bluescreen.

370678
I do like that but here is my counter offer http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainousBreakdown

EV.ERY.ONE!

Man I'm gonna have to leave 'The Game' to you guys because that whole political angle... I'd just suck at it. I kinda wanted to do SOMETHING with Blueblood but... well Greengrass is already more of a character than he is and more interesting and I just don't think I have the skill to properly exploit him

370685
In all honesty, I had originally thought that Blueblood would basically be filling Greengrass' role (which was the whole reason to have Trixie replace the former Baron, Duke Blueblood - to give Prince Blueblood some motivation and validity), but GrassAndClouds introduced Greengrass for "Musicians and Dreamers." I debated asking him to change Greengrass to Blueblood, but I admit that I kind of liked the idea of having an OC Disk 1 Final Boss more. For one thing, it meant we could develop him wholesale rather than needing to worry about keeping L-Blueblood similar to the Mane universe version of Blueblood.

For another, it means that Blueblood has a good reason to still be viable in Season 2...

370704 I do have ONE scheme in mind for him, one that would also give him some backstory with Trixie. If you want I can shoot it your way via PM.

370739
Sounds good.

370652
I've got mixed feelings there. On the one side watching him completely lose it and throw a villainous temper-tantrum could be a most amusing counter point to his normal jovial cool. On the other side though, a graceful loser who tips his hat to his worthy opponent would be a nice change from the more generic villainous rant. Maybe a little bit of both would be in order, start with outrage that an idiot like Trixie could beat him through sheer dumb luck, but as the pieces are one-by-one revealed to him and he sees how her scheme beat his fair and square have him (even if only begrudgingly so) calm down and admit how much he had underestimated her.

Also, love the idea of maybe working the zebra truth potion into the mix.

370851
The key problem here is we have yet to see him loose at all or even really consider losing a possibility, so i figure he just might not be able to take it, it doesn't have to be a childish screaming fit, it might even be sort of like Kuro in one pieces defeat a dramatic proclamation "My plan cannot fail!" and then collapse/calm down.

370860
Really? You're going to argue against me when I was already saying that I liked and found merit with both approaches?

Don't get me wrong, I still love a good argument and all, but that just seems silly.

Further, I just don't see your continued insistence that he doesn't know how to lose as having any ground to stand on. He failed to get Lyra, he failed to get Carrot Top: true we never see his immediate response, but later on he seems to consider it no more than a minor setback and has already refocused his efforts to his next scheme. Still, either way, it hardly seems practical to assume that these are his first ever failures. Even when finding out that Octavia has been Trixie's mole (a mere three days after his plan to get Cheerilee failed), his response isn't overt anger, just a fairly calm acceptance, followed by a carefully measured plot of how to not only punish the traitor, but also send a message.

370870
My apologies i perhaps came across more aggressive than I intended to, i was just putting my two cents into the "what will greengrass do when he fails" discussion again sorry if that came across wrong.

Ah but we actually do have an idea how he reacts excluding octavia most of the minions who have failed him end up completely ruined, either to cover for him or out of spite, when Trixie was explaining what happened to ponies who failed him she seemed to find him terrifying and cruel.
This to me implies to me that he can't handle it well, i doubt he's the screaming at the top of his lungs type, but i don't think he's good at handling failure.
In regards to his reaction he'd already seemingly figured out he had a mole and had more or less guessed it was octavia so that may have had something to do with it and as you said it was three days later.
Also these are not his failures but his servants failures, so I'm speaking about him trying to handle everything he;s worked for going up in flames at the hoofs of someone he thought incompetent and with no one to blame but himself.

Again sorry.

370901
Bah, don't sweat it, I wasn't upset or anything, just puzzled.

Anyway, an important distinction to be made about the idea that he punishes minions that fail out of spite is that in Musicians and Dreamer we only really had Trixie's word on the matter, and back then I'd have agreed with you. Since then, however, we've met the real Greengrass, and he hardly seems a thing like the more generic villain Trixie had ignorantly made him out to be.

Greengrass's Night: Chapter 2

Incompetence usually only merited a firing, unless the incompetent employee knew too much and had to be relocated elsewhere for the sake of Greengrass’s political career. Outright theft and disloyalty, though, carried harsher penalties.

Seemingly mere failure only warrants dismissal, and even then only if the failure was due to carelessness or stupidity. A pony like Greengrass can't afford to have any but the best and most talented in his employ. It's only when someone outright betrays him (or simply knows too much) that he goes through the trouble of getting them banished or imprisoned.

370910
phew

touché I had forgotten that line.

Though that doesn't touch on his immediate reaction to failure or him failing himself rather than having someone to blame it on, but again I suppose we'll have to wait until his defeat for that to happen.
Good point though I had completely blanked on that line.

On Greengrass and a temper tantrum - we've only ever seen him fail when it didn't really cost him anything. It was the equivalent of landing on someone's fully-housed-and-hotel'd Boardwalk when you currently have in excess of $10,000 dollars and they have less than $100 - ooh, that kind of hurts, you're about to pay through the nose, but you're still winning and they're still losing, and they may have Boardwalk but you control most of the rest of the board.

What I want to happen to him would be like the equivalent of the opponent suddenly getting a string of good luck while you simultaneously get a string of bad luck, and by the end of it not only is your opponent winning, but she's somehow managed to turn the game into Stratego.

371008

Wow. That would unhinge anyone...

370851: I think I like this idea best. He might be upset when he learns that Trixie just trounced him... but as she explains what she did, and he realizes that he lost to a clever and skillful scheme, maybe he'd be more likely to take it gracefully. All part of the Game, after all.
(If he did flip out after losing, he would probably feel very silly about it later, and might even apologize to Trixie. "So sorry about being so embarrassing the other day. Good job. PS: I'll get you next time.")

Also, I could see one of the more morally ambiguous good-side characters (Fancy Pants, perhaps, since he probably knows that Greengrass doesn't buy his obfuscating stupidity gambit) approaching him and being all, "Look, you're really good at finding weak points and breaking stuff. If you used your talents for the side of good, for destroying threats to the nation instead of Courtiers and civilians in the way of your political ambitions, imagine how useful you would be. It would be a shame for that to be lost when you go down in flames in the next ten minutes. Abandon your political ambitions, surrender your title so I know you won't try to get involved in politics again, and join [the Shadowbolts or some other group that protects the country], and you won't need to suffer through the embarrassment or humiliation, not to mention possible jail time, that you know is coming. Or you can walk out that door and take your chances."

(Greengrass would take his chances, of course. He'd rather be bucked in the face than quit the game of his own volition.)

371008
I fully support this suggestion and can totally see it happening.

I also like the idea of doing something to Greengrass's Garden. That would be one of two things (besides a personal attack on Notary or his other very close subordinates) that would genuinely anger him.

I can see Celestia torching it, or perhaps Greengrass goes there after his fall (to clear his head, and get mentally ready to adjust to his new lot in life), only to find Fancy Pants or some other pony waiting for him.

Fancy Pants: "This is beautiful. Why didn't you devote the past few years to things like this, instead of all the lives you ruined? You could have brought such beauty to the country."

Or maybe he returns to his rooms upon his defeat and finds the head of his favorite rose on his bed, Godfather style.

371308 I kinda like the idea of Corona torching as collateral damage. Just burning the building down. Though the Godfather thing could be fun.

Hmm. The idea that Greengrass realizes he's been playing the wrong game has appeal.

371061
Hmm... I rather quite like the notion that Greengrass would be offered up one final chance to 'walkaway' before everything blows up in his face, and of course that he would never take such an option.

I still don't completely believe that he's incapable of dealing with losing in a graceful manner, even big losses are something I'd imagine he's faced before with dignified acceptance, but there is probably one thing he has never EVER really conceived -- the idea of a permanent loss. That, above all else would be the one thing that never factors into any of Greengrass's schemes.

Between his ambition and cunning the idea that he could ever fall so hard as to make recovery an impossibility is simply inconceivable to him. To get knocked down to the point where he basically has to start the game all over again from scratch is about as extreme as his imagination can go, but the idea of being outright eliminated from the game FOREVER is beyond him.

The idea that all subsequent appearance would be of an increasingly desperate Greengrass, forever cut off from the grand game, but who is still constantly scheming to try and find a way back in would be just about the most dramatic punishment his character could possible suffer. In the absolute most extreme, and I say this next part with a great deal of hesitancy, because again I'm not sure I'd want to go so far, but there is merit to notion that the 'big' help out Trixie scene could hilariously have nothing to do with politics, but be something as trivial as a homeless gutter trash Greengrass helping her cross a busy street (yet he'd still try and spin it as only getting his hoof back in the door). Really though, we've already got a delusionally unable to come to terms Twilight Sparkle (Corona for that matter too, in her own way) and I don't think we need to add in a Greengrass that is anywhere close to that bad off.

371008 371337
I've rather thought something akin to that for a while. The context was very different, but in the previous brainstorming thread I posted this possible future line.

"I just don't get it Notary; her (Trixie's) moves, they never make any tactical sense. It's like I'm playing chess while she's playing backgammon."

Oh, and for those of you who may not have noticed I went and took G&C2's old text version and compiled/tweaked it into a proper graphical overview of the duke and posted links in the Profiles! thread.

Hmm, I don't want him homeless, at least not anymore. Maybe have one of the Luna Six go to Hoofington and shopping there and seeing him as an assistant in a store, spinning wild tales of how he'll climb back up, up to the top of the Night Court! *CUe evil laugh*...

And then the owner walks by and hands him a mop and bucket and tells him to mop up the bathroom.

371718

i wonder we could instead set him up as a women's shoe salesmen.....

371730

With a horribly whiny wife and "too perfect" neighbors.

Hmm... nah. At the end of the day, Al may outwardly loathe Peggy, Bud and Kelly, inwardly he'd die for them, and I bet they'd do the same. Better to leave Greengrass alone with his delusions, his mop and bucket...

Thing is, I can honestly see Greengrass managing to climb back into the night court. He is almost incapable of not playing the game, so anything that kicks Greengrass out permanently must also fundamentally alter his character.

umm, if it's okay with the author that is...

I had two really weird Ideas when I was working today.

the first one was to make Iron Will a More-or-less permanent resident of Ponyville.

It would start with him and his goats moving into a small house on the outskirts of ponyville, more-or-less neighboring Carrot Top.
while the Mane 6 get to like him, the rest of Ponyville is.. warry.

a few misunderstood incidents do little to make them trust him, so Trixie comes up with something to make things better.

at least she hopes it does.

the second was someone's out of town mother coming to visit, and...things get strange.
I initially thought about using Bonbon's mother, but I don't think that would work.

371718 371730
Better still, and for maximum dramatic turnabout, he's working as an usher/stage-hand/concessions-vendor/or-what-not at a Manehattan theater, and the L6 are there to catch the headlining act, Clover Charms.

Seriously, though, if we ever see Greengrass working a demeaning job, I'd rather it be part of a mandated community service sentence than because it's now the only way he can pay the bills.

371780
I want there to be an Iron Will in the Lunaverse, but I'm not sure I'd want to see him altered to the point of becoming a permanent resident of Ponyville. On a related note though, I did suggest in the dreams thread that he could maybe be an old acquaintance of Cheerilee from her colorful past. Though whether they would be good friends, bitter rivals, or heaven forbid -- ex-lovers -- is not something I can decide with any certainty.

As for your other idea, I don't see why a BonBon mother story couldn't work. Though unless she's divorced, travels a lot, or something, I'd rather her just already be living in town, as I'd prefer to think that Twist is BonBon's little sister.

I like twist as Bonbon's sister, too. Maybe a part-time worker in... does Bonbon's shop have a name? I was thinking something simple/semi-corny like 'Sweet and treats'.

As for Greengrass, he needs something.

371804

summer home, vacation spot, relatively peaceful place he can take a break, just something to get him there.

I would like to point out that the idea came after I took a sand sifter to the head (don't ask), so that might not be the best way to introduce him.

I wasn't sure if It should be Bonbon's mother, because I forgot if she was already in Ponyville or not.

as for Twist being Bonbon's sister, I would have to disagree.
I don't think every major, well in Bonbon's case fairly major, character needs to be tied to multiple background ponies.
besides, not everyone needs to have siblings.

371823

i called the place "Bonbon's Bonbons"

371837
True, but BonBon and Twist both have similar coat colors as well as candy themed cutie marks, so they rather seem like a great match to me. Besides, L!BonBon is important enough to have a family so why make something up whole sale when we can just assign from the already existent cast.

And while yes, not everyone needs sibling, on average more people have them than don't. Plus we've still got plenty of single children cast to possibly work with (Lyra and Ditzy have none that we know of, and if Trixie has any they'd only be illegitimate half-siblings).

371842 Got it, thanks.

Maybe Bon Bon and Lyra's moms don't get along

371823
I've referred to it as Bon Bon's Confectionarium. I'm pretty sure that "confectionarium" is not a word, so I probably intended it to be the store's name, but on the other hand it's been awhile since I gave it active thought, and I don't mind calling it whatever.

371972

well, if you guys wanna call it something else, feel free to say so. i can just edit the name anyway.

371972

"Confectionarium" appears to be the name of an actual bakery, if a google search is to believed.

371849

at the same time though, brand new ponies give a little more freedom to work with.
but if everyone else likes it, then I won't complain.

371696: I don't think that would really work for Greengrass. Like you say, we already have Twilight doing basically that.
I think he should get a huge comeuppance -- political embarrassment and scandal, his Courtly ambitions crashing down around him, etc. -- but I don't think he should be killed, horribly maimed, or rendered destitute and homeless. Even in the L-verse, that's a bit dark for MLP. I think I prefer the scenario where he just has to leave the Court, probably retaining (at least some) of his lands and wealth, but with everything he's 'grown' in the past few years either taken by others or just scrapped. He'd be the laughingstock of the Court, the pony who overreached and crashed just like they'd all predicted. He'd know it would be years, more likely decades, and quite possibly never before he could climb as high as he did again. Perhaps also a short stint in jail or a longer one doing community service (I hear the mild west needs a garden manager...)
And maybe Trixie gets his Canterlot Garden. That would make him quite unhappy.
That ending would give him his well-deserved comeuppance without being too dark, and would allow him to potentially show up later as an unexpected ally to Trixie and co. -- either as a (probably futile) attempt to get back in the Game, or just out of love for the Game. He might even learn something.

372162
Yes, all of that is a lot more like what I was thinking should happen. Spending some time in the Mild West would be especial appropriate as that seems to have been his favorite place to exile ponies over the years. Not sure if that's what should actually happen, but it should at least come up as possible punishment. That, or someplace north and very cold.

He should definitely lose some of his rank too, getting at least knocked down to Marquis, his original Count, possibly even lower to Viscount or even a mere Baron, and with his land holdings being appropriately reduced and divvied up among the surrounding nobles.

His crash and burn could also certainly be what frees up an actual seat in the court for Trixie to start taking a more active political role. Obviously his current seat is far too prestigious for her to start with, but after all the other courtiers are done jockeying for new positions there should still be an empty seat (somewhere near the bottom) for her to maybe take up.

As for his garden, I know I was the one who suggested letting Corona burn it to the ground, but hand it over to Trixie. MY GOD SIR! I don't think I could ever be that cruel to him. Better to douse the place in napalm then condemn those poor defenseless plants to her care (or more likely lack there of).

372192: ...maybe Carrot Top, then? :-)

372195
If Trixie gets a seat on the court and Carrot Top his garden, we would have to figure out what stuff of his could be divvied up among the other four of the L6. Though we're just about out of room to discuss that in this thread.

372196:

Cherilee: "Hey, I need a TA. I get Notary!"
Notary: "Yeah, that's not happening."