Recently, a blog called Good Morning Celestia had an anonymous ask whether Nyx was living with Twilight. The response (after some pics of Tia and Luna angrily glaring at the camera) basically boiled down to

Later, this was the response:

For people in need of further context, you can simply replace ‘Nyx’ with ‘Mary Sue from [insert fan fiction here]’ and achieve the same response.

I’m pretty sure it’s the response the original askee wished to elicit. Well played sir/madam/gender-neutral-pronoun, well played.

Now, I know there are HUNDREDS of "Nyx vs. Mary Sue" arguments, and the mod had this to say on the mod blog:

To jump back in on this… I have to admit that I’ve never actually read the fic in question. In fact, I’ve read next to no mlp fanfics.

The joke was more about the about the fans’ perceived option on these works, rather than any personal animosity towards them or their authors.

I draw a blog where I frequently forget to draw wings, horns, magic effect, etc. And usually have word balloons riddled with spelling errors. I have no wiggle room for slights against ‘bad fiction’.

But this proves a good point, and I believe I've found the source of Nyx's perceived Mary Sue syndrome:

People are getting Mary Sues and Woobies confused.

A "woobie" is a name for any type of character who makes you feel extremely sorry for them. Basically, the first thing you think to say when you see the woobie is: "Aw, poor baby!", and let's face it, Nyx is a sympathetic character we feel very sorry for a LOT of the time in the original fic.

Am I wrong, or am I just missing something?

Originally, Mary Sue refered to Star Trek OCs who shacked up with Kirk. Nyx isn't perfect, Infact, she has many flaws and doubts

3934045 exactly!

3934048 I mean, her mane problem is finding out who she os

No you are not wrong. People are always creaming mary sue when they see a popular character that everyone feels sympathy for. That is not what a marysue is. A mary sue is basically a self insert character that is used so that the reader can project themselves into the narrative. These self insert characters are usually pertrayed as perfect, or with flaws that make them desirable. A perfect example of a mary sue is Bella from Twilight. A very bland underdeveloped character who has no faults and constantly obtains what she wants with little effort on her part. Nyx on the other hand has many flaws that define her character. She's a crybaby, a nerd and was born into world that delcares that she is evil when she has no desire to be evil.

That's one way of looking at it, but I think another reason a lot of people accuse Nyx of being a Mary Sue is because she does trigger some of the most commonly-known Mary Sue trait flags, such as having a rare or unusual power (being an alicorn at a time when only Celestia and Luna were canon), having traits she considers negative despite others considering those traits as cool (being an alicorn, again, and more particularly her eyes), and the entire plot revolves around her (duh, Past Sins is her story).

What really makes a Mary Sue is flattening and contorting the existing universe so that almost nothing can happen without the Sue's involvement or approval. A Sue is instantly loved and accepted by every character the author likes and hated by those the author doesn't. There is no growth, development, change of opinions (except maybe converting "bad" characters into Sue-lovers), or true peril in a Mary Sue story.
In both Pen Stroke's main-line stories and RealityCheck's AU, every reaction to Nyx is believable based on Canon and the circumstances of the stories. Twilight does not instantly fall in love Nyx; she spends a good while dealing with an internal conflict between worrying about a trick by Nightmare Moon and her reasonable compassion for a lost, helpless, and emotionally fragile filly. Rarity only agrees to keep Nyx's secret nad help make the vest and glasses disguise because she owes Twilight a favor. Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon pick on Nyx because they're bullies, and the CMC accept Nyx because they see a kindred spirit in that poor black unicorn that DT and SS are harassing.
I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

Any other opinions?

So far, the only Mary Sue I've ever encountered was Fern's first written character in an episode of Arthur titled "Fern and Persimmony Glitchet".

The "Mary Sue Checklist" is hardly adequate in properly critiquing any work, certainly inadequate when the critic can't even get his terms straight.

I can see how some people may argue that Nyx is a mary sue, because as I understand it a mary sue is a character who is perfect. Nyx isn't perfect, but many people mistake her complete and total innocence as being perfect. But she really is that innocent! She's literally a week old!

3934164
Past Sins covers much more than just a week's time, you know
I get your point though.

3934158
From my own experience and research, I have to agree that the Mary Sue issue is not something that can be boiled down to a checklist. There are some common tells, but most if not all of them can be perfectly acceptable character traits if given sufficient depth and reason.

A lot of people talk about Mary Sues as if they were simply a character, but I don't think that's quite right. A Sue alters so many aspects of a story - other character behaviors, plot, rules of the setting - that it becomes more like a literary device, or a genre or sorts.

Characters twist to the whims of the Sue and the Author to fill the roles they want even if those roles go against the canon. Sues often become lost relatives or old loves of a protagonist. Romances change or end suddenly. Villains bow quickly to the Sue's absolute charisma.
Whatever canon plot-line may have been going on when the Sue in inserted is frequently forgotten or resolved in a few sentences to make way for fulfilling the Sue's desires.
Sues ignore established rules about if and how magic works, the rarity or uniqueness of crucial items or abilities, the existence and cross-breeding capability of various races and species, etc.
The Mary Sue becomes the most important thing in the universe, and everything else stagnates or degrades.
The Sue has no history to speak of, no justification to hate their desirable qualities, no impulse control or regrets regarding anything in the text, and frankly not much of a future anyone else would care about.

Nyx's existence has a profound impact on Equestria, but not to the degree that life and character development can't go on without her.

3934341 If it is Nyx, can you tell where your avatar come from? Please?

3934039 When I saw the first and second post from Good Morning Celestia involving Nyx, I was fuming. But then I read the Mod post, and I rolled my eyes at his/her ignorance about the subject.

3934385 Oh. Can you link your DA page, please?

3934079
What's funny is the first list of traits of a mary sue you went over would make just about every hero in every popular fiction out there a mary sue... Especially most comic book heroes...

3934841
Well, comic book heroes and such get an easy pass because they're from "legitimate" media, not fan-fiction

Although there apparently is such a thing as a "Canon Sue."

Okay.. well. I feel like I'm gonna be the first Nyx fan to say this but.
Nyx does have some sueish tendencies, even with the story being revised
Practically everything that as been listed can count.
But that isn't the point.

It doesn't matter if Nyx is a mary sue or not. Some could say Snowdrop is a mary sue but people still love her!
Some see Nyx as a mary sue
Some don't see her as a mary sue
I see her as a character with sueish traits.. but they're not bad enough to make us love her less.
I still adore Nyx as a character, there are MUCH worse sues out there. (Some that are in fanfictions WITH Nyx > >)
Now for the love of God can this debate just be dropped?

I covered this issue in my retrospective review of Past Sins on my FimFic blog, but I'll drop the tl;dr here:

The critical thing that makes a character a MAIN character is how much they grow and change over the course of the story. Secondary characters grow and change, but not as much and usually only as a result of the main characters growth and change.

Mary Sue characters, however, DO NOT change, because they're already "perfect" by the author's standards, so automatically become the center of the universe. Ultimately, they waste our time (as readers) and are really, really boring to read. (Kinda like the Space Marine genre)

When we first met Nyx, she's a tabula rasa, and so as a result can ONLY grow and change, making her the antithesis of a Mary Sue.

I do say more about the topic in my review, but that's the core of my feelings on the matter.

I would not say Nyx is a Mary Sue. She is really a developed character. Especially during her Nightmare Moon time. She has doubts, fears and worries and for her things do not go very smoothly. She is often in trouble. And yeah, I think she is more the character that makes us feel sorry.

3934039
I always imagine her growing into a stronger person as she gets older. I mean HELL, her name is based off of a Greek Goddess that was so powerful that ZEUS was afraid of her

3934052
She's also nieve and prone to an ill temper

6699475 She wasn't just a goddess, she was a Protogenoi

So she pre-dated the gods AND the Titans

6700440
damn you, internet, you lied to me!

6700461 to be fair, Protogenoi aren't given much attention

6700546
but the point still stands. I feel Nyx has more potential than to simply be a "Night Guard"

3934050
Well in the original story she starts off rather nieve and when it comes to others expectations she's also a little selfish, doing what others tell her because then 'they'll like her'. She eventually transitions from doing things for her own benefit to avoid consequences, to doing things for others regardless of the consequences. In later stories, another flaw she develops is that she's incredibly temperamental.

6914130
True, and damn, can't believe that comment is four years old

6914301
lol yeah, it's been here a while, hasn't it? but the point still stands. Also noticed a lot of people who say Nyx is a Mary Sue have never even READ the story, and I find that pretty funny