and don't say " it dose not mean we need to let them walk all over us!"
Did Jesus sent armies of angels against Roman soldiers?
Did early churches fought against its persecution in Jerusalem?
Did Steven defend himself as he was being killed?

6024849 Personal feelings aren't even relevant. The important thing is that you understand the worldview of others and work with that.

If you wrap yourself in honey and throw yourself on the ant-hill, it's your own fault if you get bitten by ants. There's nothing to forgive.

On the other claw, if you understand ants, you can live in harmony with them, despite them being different from you.

It's not about love or hate, it's about coexistence.

6025035
well can't disagree with that.
having said that... can you find a heart to forgive ISIS?

6025038 I don't work on the same principles you do. I harbor nor hate nor love. The concept of forgiveness is alien to me. To forgive is to not understand and just ignore the signs from the past at the same time. It's just silly and illogical to me.

What members of ISIS do is altruistic in their eyes. They do not see themselves as the monsters you see them. Their interpretation of the holy book tells them to do that, and they believe that the true morality comes from God.

They aren't driven by hatred. Their options are really simple:
a) Their belief is true and ergo, what they're doing is good and just.
b) They're in the wrong and should be stopped.

Both options lead to violence from their side. It's just inevitable.

They're victims of brainwashing, and you can't expect victims to behave reasonably. They should either be helped or stopped. Either we break the brainwashing machine that created them or we fight what comes out of it.

6025068

 I harbor nor hate nor love

that is silly... every human hates and loves... unless you are telling me...
ARE YOU A TIME LORD?!!! IF SO PLEASE GIVE ME A TARDIS!

6025038
Depends on the ISIS member, honestly.
If we're talking Baghdadi, I can't forgive him. If we're talking a naieve conscript from some random village in Pakistan who doesn't know any better, than I can find some room for sympathy (provided he shows remorse).

It's kinda like asking if you can feel sympathy for a Nazi. I think ISIS is similar to the Nazis, in that they're preying on the very real and very legitimate anger and fear born in 2003. They're using naieve, misguided young men as cannon fodder.

6025076
fair enough... at least you are not calling for blood on all ISIS members regardless of backstories.

6025084
(Sorry for butting in, this conversation interests me)
Of course, at the present moment, ISIS is a threat and must be dealt with. Ideally, the leadership of the group is killed off and the droves of fanatical soldiers fade into obscurity or are in some way rehabilitated.
I want to see a Post-WW2 Germany happen in the Middle East, minus Denazification and the Iron Curtain. I think that'd be pretty sweet.

6025073

every human hates and loves.

Perhaps, but to a different extent.

To forgive someone presupposes that you already hate that person, to begin with, else forgiveness would not be needed. Why not just cut the middle man feelings and not resort to hatred as your default response?

Given the right social environment, every one of us could have been an ISIS member. They're not bad people. They're misfortunate people who were caught in the claws of religion. They're not the primal cause of the violence. They're but a symptom.

6024849

I try (incoming Yoda quote). I do try to just let it go. It's not easy.

From what I read, forgiveness isn't the lack of justice but rather trusting God with it. Revenge is vigilante and either does too much or too little, without fixing the problem. It just adds more incentive for the grudge. Just look at the trio of wars between France and Germany (Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871, WWI and WWII) and you'll see that.

Not easy. I'm fortunate enough to not have a family member or friend die from terrorism or crime, so I don't know what to say to those who have, other than trust God and trust His word, the Bible. And try to live righteously (not self-righteously) as possible.

May God go with you, especially those who are suffering in any way.

6025068

To forgive is to not understand and just ignore the signs from the past at the same time. It's just silly and illogical to me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Because I forgive you. I forgive the posts you make, and your hostility toward our faith. I also apologize for anything truly wrong I have done to you.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I have not capitulated on the matter (i.e., I am still a Christian, on the same side of the argument). But I want to bury the hostility between us and start over again on less unfriendly, and hopefully on friendly, terms. I have hope for the future.

I hope we can all discuss peacefully and without offense the very matters we stand on.

6030911 See, this is the difference between us. By saying you forgive me, you automatically tell me that you had ill thoughts toward me.

I, for one, don't have ill feelings toward you. Based on my past dealings with you, I find you lacking on many fronts. The main ones are:
- you don't address the issues directly at their core
- your opinions are based on your feels
- you have a hard time seeing things from any other view but your own

That's just who you are, and I find it counterproductive to 'forgive' you for the parameters that are inherent to you. You're bound to exhibit your characteristic in the future, and it could prove to be prejudicious if I were to ignore them. Then again, the moment you drop them is the moment I'll stop taking them into account. Again, no forgiveness needed.

As you can see, any hostility that has been between us is coming from your side. I have no feels toward you one way or the other.

If not taking offense is the definition of friendship, then I guess I am your friend. I always have been.

6031177

We still collectively forgive you for being a faggot, Bad. No matter how much you fight us on our loving tolerance of your sexual identity as a penis-slurping fuccboi.

6031182 Does that mean I won't get stoned to death? I guess I should be grateful?

6031195
You will be stoned though, just gotta find the right herbs to do the job. I hope you don't mind

6032631 Mmm, I'm gay for that. Looking forward to it.

6024849
I am no longer a Christian, but I still have a certain level of fondness for the emphasis on forgiveness. To answer the question, I think I can.

I grew up bearing witness to domestic abuse. I wasn't the target, but my mother and sister were. My mother's boyfriend was in my life from the time I was nine, to nineteen, and life with him was a mixture between the bad and the good. I grew up conflicted about how I felt about him, and when our ordeal was over, I had decided that it was mentally beneficial to simply hate him. Hating him was of no detriment to me. This is not a person that I spend my waking hours thinking about.

Years later, this person and those memories barely register as a thing that happened. The problems that this man has are only a detriment to himself, and while I have no wish to any longer know this person, I find myself fully capable of wishing him well, and that he has found some way to live with his won inner-demons.