Concerns about "Endgame" · 7:06pm Apr 25th, 2019
Aside from Captain Marvel powergaming out of nowhere, I heard a rumor that there's time travel involved.
Oh no... no no no no...
Are they going to have to rely on the WEAKEST GIMMICK POSSIBLE to fix everything? Sheesh, that would mean they REALLY wrote themselves into a wall!
Are they going to go back in time and take all the Infinity Gems before Thanos gets them... meaning that there SHOULD be a horrible paradox, but because 'the plot', nothing happens? Or, will the paradox potential be undone by the 'infinite multiverse' explanation?
At best, I would hope they think to use Ant Man's quantum connection to duplicate the Gems with quantum mechanics gobblety-gook (it would at least sound convincing and sciency enough), and then taking the copies to the future, thus eliminating the potential paradox (see, I actually know how this crap works)?
The worst thing would be they just take all the gems and make none of the 'bad end' ever happen. Dear lord, the paradoxes... even multiverse doesn't fix that mess.
I'm just worried. I have come to LOATH sudden time travel fixes, as it feels so utterly lazy and unearned. Basically, ANYONE could do that in that case. The heroes are no longer required if all anyone needs is a fancy time travel pod and paradoxes don't happen.
Swiggity swooty, Ant bro coming for that booty
USA's comic industry at its finest.
...
I approve of its lack of creativity! Rebooting comics, anyone?
I can give you some info, if you want spoilers.
5049332 If it will make the time travel rumor either go away or make sense, without being a comic trope I've hated for decades, then ok.
Spoilers mean nothing to me. All I care about is a good story.
5049405
They use Ant-Man Quantum science stuff to time travel and get the Infinity Stones through history, before Thanos can get them
5049553
So... the writers really had no way out, so chose a lazy comic trope. Which I'm sure everyone will think is genius because everyone today is an idiot and no one dares defy Disney-Marvel. Do they even bother explaining away the universe-destroying paradox that should result of them undoing the initiation event which directly leads to them going back in time? This is basically a bootstrap paradox. They're going back in time and 'killing their grandfather', meaning they shouldn't be there to go back in time, meaning Thanos DOES get the Stones, meaning they DO go back in time, meaning he DOESN'T get the Stones, meaning the DON'T go back in time... It's why people USUALLY are pissed at random time-travel solutions. I've seen critics rip apart movies IN WHICH THIS EXACT SORT OF SOLUTION IS USED, pointing out how it doesn't make sense.
For crying out loud, in my previous comment, I pointed out a solution: use quantum stuff to COPY the Stones, or split them into entangled pairs (then maybe the 'strongest' of them gets to yank control away from Thanos in the future and reunite them... oh wow, then there'd actually be a reason for Captain Marvel to exist in the movies!), then there's no paradox. And, since altering reality and time are kinda two inherent powers of the Stones... they could just undo what Thanos did at their current present time with some fancy 'temporal reassignment' BS explanation which again would allay a paradox.
I mean, geez, "Back to the Future" pointed this all out nearly 35 years ago... and it was basically a COMEDY! And to this day, most people apparently still haven't grasped the concept at all.
Sheesh, a few minutes' thought and I come up with a better solution that avoids all the plot hole pitfalls of time travel tropes.
5049591
What confuses me is that after they defeat Thanos, they bring all the stones back where they have taken them. So, given how they fought Thanos in the present, doesn't mean that past Thanos is going to get them back?
An even more bullshit thing spoiler?
Thanos destroyes the Infinity Stones with the guantlet... that alone is kind of bullshit. The Infinity Stones are supposed to be absurdly powerful relics that cointains untold power. Their destruction should cause the end of the whole universe! In this way, the look more like simple rocks.
5049733
Wow... that's just... no. Sounds like they really had no idea how to end this properly.
5049591
LOL imagine thinking that timelines are linear
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/bc8Du
No paradoxes are formed because they're technically traveling to a different universe.
Think of Rick and Morty for a example.
They were trying to include time travel which is accurate to our current model of quantum physics.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dzKWfw68M5U
5051486 Uhm... Rick specifically stated that he does NOT mess with time travel. And you also forget that little almost-universe-ending thing where the divergences occurred.
You see, even DBZ figured this mess out. Trunks had a very specific time machine that could only travel between a set few universes. And even then, there were logistical problems.
Also, stop being an idiot. Time in our universe IS linear and directly causal. Trying to go back in time would require one to reposition every single subatomic particle and waveform in exactly the quantum state they were all in at the exact moment you're trying to travel back to. This would require more energy than the entire mass-energy state of the entire cosmos, plus the omniscience of God... basically, UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE.
The people who still believe in that severe misreading of quantum physics don't realize that the existence of that flaw in the equations is how we know our models of the universe are still incomplete. By multiple experiments, we know that entropy CANNOT be reversed to precisely a previous state, meaning any equation suggesting backwards time travel MUST BE WRONG.
You see, this is the REAL meaning of a paradox in the scientific sense. Any set of equations permitting a paradoxical scenario are inherently flawed.
I'm a scientist, you lose.
5051601
You missed my point with the rick and Morty example. That problem arises only if you think of it as time travel, instead of traveling to a similar universe that's back in time.
This explains it in finer detail.
It doesn't get rid of time paradoxes, but it does avoid them.
If you disagree about time being linear, take it up with Einstein
Also, being a scientist in a specific field (geology for example) doesn't mean that you have any clue about particle physics. Unless you have a PHD in physics, don't act like your any better qualified. You are just a hobbiest like me.
PS. time travel WHICH IS NOT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT BEFORE is theoretically possible (at least mathematically)
PPS. The Alcubierre Warp Drive has the ability to produce a closed time-like curve as well
Now, to cover your comments about entropy
There is no connection between classical thermodynamic entropy(which is real) and “time” (which is an illusion), there never was, and there never will be.
I'll admit, technically No form of "time travel" is possible, for the simple reason that there is no "time," no "time direction," no "flow of time," there is only now — there are no “pasts” and no “futures” to go to! In physics (and in QM), there is only a measure of durations of events, and of the intervals between events: the "fourth dimension of time" in mathematical physics is an abstraction — invented to enable manipulation of "Minkowski space" metrics —- it does not exist in our real Universe.
I'd suggest you read: J.C.N. Smith's Time — Illusion and Reality.
“Time” has nothing to do with any form of entropy (see What is the Easiest Definition of "Entropy"?), which in turn has nothing to do with “order” or “disorder”: Entropy is measured in units of energy over temperature (i.e, in joule per kelvin (J/K)), as Wikipedia (correctly) states in the article Entropy:
Entropy is an extensive property. It has the dimension of energy divided by temperature, which has a unit of joules per kelvin ( J K−¹) in the International System of Units (or kg M² S−² K−¹ in terms of base units). But the entropy of a pure substance is usually given as an intensive property — either entropy per unit mass (SI unit: J K−¹ kg−¹) or entropy per unit amount of substance (SI unit: J K−¹ mol−¹).
I challenge you and all people who believe the unscientific notion that “entropy is a measure of disorder,” to explain exactly how a “degree of order” — or disorder, as the case may be — can possibly be expressed in units of energy and temperature!
Hey man, if you want to actually go into detail with me, make sure to cite your sources.
I'm a nerd, you lose.
5051645 Yeah, pretty much no one thinks that drive is possible anymore. It relies on a hypothetical form of matter which no one has managed to even find a hint that it can actually exist.
Wormholes, on the other hand, may in fact exist.
Quantum entanglement may actually depend upon them. Now, the question of whether they can actually be used for travel is uncertain.
But with regard to the movie, they were still jumping about between time in 'dimensions', so you say.
Ah, but there's a rather large plothole: How, then, does Captain America show up in the 'present' as an old man if he remained back in time in one of the other dimensions? You see, if we accept the movie explanation as 'true', then old Captain America CANNOT BE THERE.
Leave the time-travel/trans-dimensional mumbo jumbo to those few writers brilliant enough to handle it. Stick with lasers from the sky for superhero flicks.
5051687
5051645
... There are no answers gentleman. Only absurdity. And kek
5051687
Yeah, you got me.
By allowing Cap to remain on the same timeline, they effectively ruined everything they set up until that point...
Though, I never said "dimensions" - I said that they were subscribing to the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics... (and traveling between them - which is the BS part)
Don't twist my words here pal,
"please note that multi-dimensional time travel is distinct from multiverse time travel."*link*
However you have to admit that you didn't really know what you were talking about when it came to the whole "linear" thing... or the whole "entropy" thing...
Don't worry, I think you were just suffering from the Dunning Kruger Effect
5051862 Linearity has everything to do with entropy. Direct cause leading to direct effect. If this did not take place in a linear fashion, we could never predict nuclear reactions with absolute certainty.
The fact that we can have nuclear plants and atomic bombs means the energy gradient is absolutely linear and CANNOT proceed in a reverse direction.
5052053
Did you literally read none of my post? Time hasn't been considered linear since newtons form of physics.
And, like I already stated, "Time” has nothing to do with any form of entropy.
What are you on man?
You're literally spouting off nonsense at this point. You have made no counter arguments, cited no sources, and keep saying stuff that is patently false.
I think the best way that you can recover your argument now is fall back onto hidden variable theory, simply stating that you don't believe mainstream quantum mechanics, and prefer less popular (and less supported) deterministic theories.
Also, be careful with your words, what you said about nuclear reactions is completely false. We can't predict the reaction Absolutely, we can only know that there is a very low probability ( ex. 1 / 10e100) that the reaction won't occur.
Here's an article about it.
http://www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/resource/res00000922/quantum-casino?cmpid=CMP00001204
Face the facts kid, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to quantum physics.
You didn't even specify what type of thermodynamics you were referring to. I assumed that you ment classical thermodynamics, which is completely unrelated to quantum physics.
Can you please show me your fucking sources, because I don't understand what you are saying anymore.
5052067 I'm talking in the terms of forward progression of time. Even a curve can be turned into a linear form.
Event progression does not 'jump'. It occurs in an entirely predictable manner.
In fact, time itself is merely an artifact of relativistic effects, therefore to think of moving freely about within something that is not more than a mere perception is itself ridiculous. In that case, time IS a result of entropy: the perception of the net progression of the universe's energy gradient downward to a low-energy state. Relativity first perfectly into this modality, indeed this explains the time dilation effect: as an object accelerates to nearer the speed of light, its energy increases. Higher energy states become more constrained, thus there is a slowing of the object's entropic progression. It 'ages' slower than the rest of the universe. BUT, it is not 'travelling' into the future. It's simply entering a state of 'suspended animation', as it were, while the universe proceeds according to the overall gradient. It is for this reason that travelling to other time points in other universes is equally implausible. There is simply no manner by which to ascertain the energy gradient state of any particular universe not directly part of our own, and if it is connected to our universe, then it must already share the same gradient, and thus be 'at the same time' for all intents and purposes.
As for other scifi, going faster than light is utterly impossible for various reason both mathematical and practical. In practical terms, anything matter approaching the speed of light would become so horribly deformed at the atomic scale, life chemistry would become impossible, as would all reactions in any form of engine. Then there is the bombardment of the ship and everything in it with the diffuse gasses and particles in interstellar space, all of which would impact the ship at enormous energies, akin to standing in front of a proton beam in a particle accelerator. No shielding would be adequate enough. Then, there are the implications of the old mass-energy equation. Higher velocity means increasing inertial resistance. As the object approaches 'c', the energy required to further accelerate it becomes staggering.
Quantum physicists tend to lose themselves in their equations and some end up believing many bizarre things, which are ridiculed by other quantum physicists who have their own strange assumptions.
I go instead where the demonstrable evidence leads me.
The probabilities you speak of are 'mathematical' in nature. They are vanishingly small. In fact, you could run those experiments until the heat death of the universe and likely never encounter a situation in which the expected results don't happen. There is the 'probability' that all the protons in my body could decay simultaneously... but I'm not going to worry about such an event as I have a better chance of spontaneously evolving into SSJ4 and taking over the galaxy.
To sum this all up: Movie writers shouldn't try to overcomplicate things when they're writing about superheroes with powers that defy ALL known physics. It ends up making them look silly when they try to justify absurdity with actual science. That's what PROPER science fiction exists for.
5052196
Thanks for clarifying. From my current understanding of physics, you are correct, but I'd really wish you'd link scientific sources so I can examine what you are referring to in greater detail.
(You are REALLY mis-using the term "linear", if you are saying that things happen in a cause-and-effect relationship where an effect cannot occur before its cause, then you are referring to Classical Physics Causality.)
So what's your take on things like Wheelers Delayed Choice Experiment, and Bells Theorem?
🦀 Classic Locality is gone 🦀
5052351 Oh, been so busy I forgot to gloat: HA HA HA HA!! I WAS RIGHT!! THE MOVIE DID EVERYTHING I SAID IT WOULD!!
I know lazy comic tropes. I grew up with them, and quickly got sick of them. And I can recognize the signs of their use a mile away.
5116441
shakes fist
and I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for your meddling, kid
5116442 Of course, it still made $2.7 billion... finally dethroning "Avatar"... which honestly sucked FAR worse. At least "Endgame" was a story with actual characters. "Pocahantas In Space" was just a polished turd, and no one realized they'd bought poo until after the studio had snatched all the money out of their pockets.
I was dragged to see "Avatar" by my aunt, and sitting through it physically hurt my brain.
5116444
Avatar was pretty good if you ignored the plot and characters
5116478 It didn't help that I thought the creature designs were pretty dumb-looking too. The life forms that actually existed on Earth during the Cambrian Explosion were more 'alien' than most of those things. They were made to all look 'pretty', which made them boring.