In such a bad mood today · 1:50pm Sep 13th, 2015
...for various reasons.
Also, I don't really like bronies. Okay, let me rephrase that- I don't like most bronies. I think there are some lovely ones, but I'm talking of the particular type of brony who thinks MLP: Friendship is Magic was never meant to be aimed at little girls. The ones who insist that guys have more of a right to being a fan of the show than girls do. The ones who think M/M ships, and even het ships are abhorrent because all MLP ships should be girl on girl. The ones who think "it isn't homophobia" if they hate M/M ships because they like F/F ones. The ones who hate the idea of feminism, yet watch a show aimed at girls with strong female characters without seeing the irony of their position. The ones who think the fat pony at the end of the latest episode was more than just a throwaway funny character and decided it was the pony incarnation of a "tumblrina". Heck, I don't even like Tumblr. I left it because people seemed to get offended by everything on it, but at the same time 4-chan has a lot to answer for. They are just the other end of the spectrum. And that's kind of my problem with some male fans of MLP- They try to warp a show they claim to like into something it isn't.
Foalcon makes the featured box, Fluttershy's assertiveness is seen as bitchy and Rarity is "stuck up." etc.
I grew up with the original MLP, which I loved when I was 5-7, and then I grew out of it and didn't think it was that great anymore, so to see the show being rebooted into something wonderful was great. Also, John de Lancie as a chaos god!
Yes, I know all fandoms have nutters in them, but come on. You can't claim to like something then act like its core message is abhorrent in the same breath.
Perhaps this is not "most bronies." Perhaps it's just the ones who are the loudest, but the only reason I'm still on this site is there are some good authors, both male and female here who don't subscribe to this toxic outlook on what is basically a kid's show FOR LITTLE GIRLS. It's great when guys like something for girls, but not when they crap all over the idea of strong girls and women in the first place.
I honestly didn't know there were fans like that. I guess every fandom has it's dark side...
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I wish I didn't know there were fans like that.
A while back someone tried to start a feminist group on this site and it just got trolled and shut down. In the meantime there are still groups like "rape."
33.media.tumblr.com/830af1d36a4685ba283bbb688d354001/tumblr_n22rvqe7zP1relncyo1_500.gif
I can't stand it either. I liked the pony at the end of the new episode, it looked like she was just a silly one-off character, but bronies were saying shes a "llololol triggered tumblr sjw" just cause she's fat??? What?
You would not believe some of the comments on places like Derpibooru. You see less of it here, but that place is a cesspool.
I love MLP more than anything, but a good portion of the fandom is horrid. The very fact that "foalcon" is even a genre, and that it isn't banned on a lot of MLP websites, is just one example. Also the fact that I can't even say that I'm a feminist without getting attacked. I don't even like calling myself a brony because of that portion of the fandom; I just say that I like MLP.
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There's always a dark side to everything.
Well, everything except Monty Python.
Seriously, there's no dark side to this.
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Same. The word "brony" is tainted. And the defense of the "foalcon" and "rape" genres is "lol it's just my fetish." Yeah, well the rest of us aren't really interested in seeing those fetishes all over the place, and I'm doubtful that some of the people claiming that it's their fetish even know what the word "fetish" means. A lot of the BDSM fic is just straightforward rapey and at no point are safewords, or consent or anything like that mentioned. They may as well have been written by Christian Grey. As for foalcon, the argument "but they're not human children so it's okay" grosses me out something fierce, because the person has just basically said "the reason they're not human children is I can't get away with THAT." Shudder.
Yeah there was a completely innocent and SFW pic of that background pony with cookies for her cutiemark and they were already drooling over her saying they were going to draw porn of her etc. (Why? Is it because she's flesh coloured? I don't get it.) The moderator had to tell them to STFU because it wasn't a mature pic and therefore such comments weren't allowed on it.
I'm not against the idea of erotic fic, or even BDSM fic, but I think a lot of bronies don't even know what those two words mean. And that kind of talk really should be restricted to NSFW pics, especially when it's against site rules.
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I have no problem with the dark side of things. The fic I write isn't exactly all flowers and rainbows, but there's a way to write dark things without alienating half of the human race.
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I tend to relish the dark side of certain things as well. My love of darkness is one reason why I'm a fan of Warhammer 40,000.
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Um, I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with M/M and F/F ships, just that it's hypocritical for fans to like F/F and in the same breath call M/M disgusting.
Homosexual ships and Foalcon are not even in the same league.
AGREED, MAMMOTH, AGREED
And let's not forget the whole "human meets pony and they do stuff" thing, and then it gets super popular and featured. It creeps me out so much.
Also I know I probably don't wanna know, but...foalcon? Sounds like an mlp convention. And what about the pony being a tumblrella? I don't
...Pop culture, it eludes me.
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Oh yes, Human in Equestria shite.
On the bright side, there have been a few fics written on this site that mock and deconstruct the Human in Equestria genre and they're well worth reading.
Foalcon is fic about adult people or adult ponies doing...stuff...with underage ponies.
WHY.
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And then there's the ones who say "even though I'm drawing Apple Bloom as a human, she's 18 here so it's okay". Doesn't change the fact that you're lusting after a child, buddy.
I literally saw a guy once ask a girl, who had mentioned she owned some MLP underwear, if she would post a picture of herself wearing them. And then, when I reported him, he didn't understand why his comment was deleted.
I don't read stories with NSFW stuff as the focus, simply cause I have no interest, but I know it's gonna happen in any fandom. It just needs to be kept away from the target demographic. The fact that porn can show up in a google image search for "my little pony" is awful.
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While this is true, the MLP fandom's dark side is considerably larger than most fandoms, at least IMO
Ugh. Such manchildren. I wonder if they've ever left the hallways of their house.
And derpibooru loves the concept of the "friendzone", despite this being...a show about friendship.
NOOOO, NOT BEING FRIENDS WITH A WOMAN! IT'S THE WORST THING EVER!
The second I saw that character I was already preparing a bunker for the s
itstorm. Honestly where do you find moronic simpletons like these? Then again, I guess it is the price we all have to pay when we enter a massive fandom like this one; morons who only appreciate the show in an ironic way or just want to cause as much fires since their lives are boring and they have nothing better to do.
The fact is that MLP has strong positive feminism messages which is why I don't understand that position. You'd think that a show with six female protagonists wouldn't succumb to these issues, but hey that's what happens when it grows into a such a popular part of 'internet culture'. I don't think that the mysoginistic morons that claim stupid BS like that are even scratching the surface of the worst this fandom has, from the annoying self inserts who delete comments throgh foalconers and generally despicable flamewariors, but it is annoying to see that. The price of fame is quite harsh.
This, boys and girls, is called having a fetish. It has nothing to do with your support on homosexuality, it simply means you enjoy seeing that. Heck, ask a homophobic man how he feels about girl on girl action. I guarantee you that 8/10 times they will say 'it's sweet' or some other stupd stuff like that.
Also about this little tidbit:
I WILL FIGHT WHOEVER SAID THAT ON THE STREET!
But seriously, are people who make these wild accussation just dense or do they not watch the show? I am genuinely curious as to what kind of thought process they go through. "Oh look she's trying to balance her dream out with her business. What a stuck up bi
ch"
Again, assuming these are not just trolls trying to start a flamewar, how can they interpret her as a 'stuck up'? I think I might actually give Rarity the 'worst represented in the fandom' medal. Closely followed by Pinkie Pie.
So kiddies what have we learned today? (as thought up by a bunch of sexist pricks)
1) the show for little girls was clearly never intended to have girly themes
2) it's not homophobic if you support 'mare on mare' action and not 'stallion on stallion' because of your fetishized view of ponies
3) if you show a non male fat character, it clearly means that you're a 'tumblr feminazi'
and finally: if you have a strong sense of self worth, it clearly means you're just stuck up (I mean it couldn't possibly mean you have your own opinions and are a human being. nah you're just a babymaker who also cleans the dishes and cooks me meals. Now get back tot he kitchen and wash me socks
)
Sorry for the harsh tone, but this sort of sh
t really pisses me off. It's one of the things I thought that this fandom WOULDN'T have. Clearly, people always prove me wrong. Yay...
[youtube=WtOPacnjxLU]
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Pretty much. You don't get a gold star for being an advocate of gay rights just because you like lesbian porn.
It...actually baffles me that some people still think like this.
And do not apologize for the "harsh tone!" It's very welcome here and I have to say I've been trying not to flip tables all day today, not necessarily because of this topic, but it just added to the list of things pissing me off this week.
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Agreed. In fact it goes quite in the opposite way and makes you look like a hypocrite.
"Oh Ah only supports them gays rights to screw each other, but only if it's girls. And they let me watch. But I supports it!"
That's essentially the feel I get from these morons and whenever they write a comment, I make sure to read in the most inbred hick way possible (apologies to all the inbred bhicks as they clearly have higher brain functions than these morons). They're actually worse than even the Westburo conservatives (oh sweet Luna I feel sick after typing that
). At least they are consistent with their hatred.
Honestly, what does it matter who's on who. I never understodd clop and the genral sexualization of mlp characters, as I feel it kinda goes against the whole 'friendship' theme of the show and just makes it about lust and physical desire, but I would at least appreciate that, since it already exists, people would be more open minded. After all it is 2015 and I'd hope that people would grow a brain. But in the words of Alber Einstein:
"There are only two things that are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity. And I am not so sure about the universe"
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WHAT.
AND PEOPLE GIVE FREAKING FLUTTERCORD A HARD TIME!
LIKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
SOMEONE GET THE GIF OF PATRICK STAR SAYING THAT.
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Well of course they give Fluttercord a hard time, because any male is a threat to their imaginary fantasy with their waifu!
gifwave.com/media/48089_spongebob-squarepants-patrick-patrick-star-who-are-you-who-are-you-people.gif
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Also the fat pony may have simply been a tribute to Kate Beaton's fat pony:
wired.com/images_blogs/underwire/2013/10/beaton-pony.jpg
I guess the only thing I could argue with is that male fans aren't the only ones to mess with the show a lot. And that they are free to do what they want when it comes to the fandom--stuff like NSFW fanart is overall harmless and can be ignored. But all that aside, that doesn't mean they can do everything they want, because some of it is just sick. There's stuff like foalcon, and people will write rape cause "lawl fetish" or even "it makes it realistic you're just butthurt get over it." And while that stuff is harmless, that doesn't mean it isn't any less disgusting.
Also, people who glorify lesbian ships then just either hate on M/M or heterosexual ships baffle me. One time in high school, I had a friend who'd be the kind of guy to say "no homo" and everything, but when me and my one girl friend were 'flirting,' he was like, "hot." Like, what are you, five?
I'm fine with everyone liking this show. People have every right to, and it'd be childish to be some sort of gatekeeper. But the mean spirited way they treat it isn't how a fandom should treat the show. They need to stop bashing characters because they aren't how they want them to be, stop pissing on episodes just because it isn't to their standard, etc. Just enjoy the fandom and enjoy the show; simple.
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I don't necessarily have a problem with NSFW stuff. After all, I've written erotic fic etc. And there really is no way to stop rule34 on the internet anyway. My problem is that there's so much of it out there that's an incredibly twisted POV of women. It's almost as if they decided the mane 6 were too uppity and they decided to take them down a notch so that they'd feel more comfortable liking female characters.
And oh god yes, "I hated this episode because blah blah blah." Just stop watching it then! It's clear you hate everything about it.
Also I've written about rape in my fics, but never as titillation. I guess that's my problem with it. It's a horrible thing and people just act like it's a jolly old sexual romp and we need to get over it.
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Now that I can understand. I don't necessarily look at or read a lot of 'mature' stuff overall, so I'm not too aware of what people write when it comes to female characters. But from what I've seen, they become so one-dimension, so submissive, and will just fall into the arms of the nearest protagonist no matter what.
And I was mostly referring to writing a story written just about rape and that's it. If it happens sometime in a larger story, and shows the aftermath and the effects and that it isn't something to get off on, then that's different.
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Yes, I don't think dark topics should never be touched on, but rape as titillation is a huge squick for me. I hate Quagmire in Family Guy for similar reasons.
An example of a cartoon comedy show that had an attempted rape scene but DIDN'T play it for laughs is Rick and Morty.
Behold the irony of me saying I don't like tumblr then linking to a tumblr post (It's not all bad, to be fair). Warning- discusses attempted rape, though in a mature and respectful way:
http://dratsing.tumblr.com/post/74336529764/on-the-importance-of-meseeks-and-destroys-darkest
I'm so glad they did this, because I'm sick of comedy shows making jokes about rape and then winking at the audience like "isn't this just so funny? Why are people being so offended by it? Maybe they're all tumblrinas who need to get over it! It's just a joke!" Wheras Rick and Morty is still a funny show but it doesn't try to make rape funny.
My problem with a certain breed of brony is that they will try to remove everything about strong female characters from MLPFIM while still claiming to LIKE A SHOW FOR GIRLS.
As I said, guys can like this show, I have no problem with that, but the ones who crap all over feminism and the idea of strong women while claiming to like this show just baffle me. Is it some sort of weird power trip? Because that's pretty sad.
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Oh, right, of course. Because they totally have a chance, a relationship with a fictional cartoon Pegasus.
Thank you for providing me with all my giffing needs.
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You know what OTHER part of tumblr isn't that bad?
*Not a shameless self-promotion*
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I do look at individual Tumblr blogs but I no longer have a tumblr because I was sick to death of people playing oppression Olympics. Granted, that didn't necessarily start on Tumblr but I did get tired of seeing people try to claim that bisexuals aren't real, Jews aren't really oppressed etc. and that some oppressed groups deserve more support than others. Not everyone on Tumblr is like that but I'd rather have low blood pressure than try to weed them all out so I can read the good stuff.
*shakes head* Ah, now I remember why I watch the cartoon, but tend to avoid most of the fandom, with a few exceptions aka present company.
Thank you, this is exactly how I feel when I hear some fans bellyaching that the show should tackle really adult subjects.
"It's a kids' cartoon people! Relax! If you enjoy it, that's fine. If you're out of the target audience and still learn something from it, that's fine. I mean, when I was in college, I saw a VeggieTales episode that helped encourage me and get me through a rough spot, but that doesn't change the fact that the show is aimed at five-year-olds. It's the same with MLP. Adults can enjoy it, but it is at heart a kids' show." Sorry, went a bit off tangent there.
Yeah, I'm sure many of the fans out there are perfectly wonderful, sensible people, but it's kind of hard to notice them when the screaming fanatics are, well, screaming.
Still, sorry to hear you're in a bad mood and hope this post helped you at least vent a bit.
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It did, thank you.
I just saw stuff like the comments about the fat pony today and it made me remember why I don't tend to like people. :/
Present companies excepted. x
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Oh, I know that and I understand, Mammoth. Really, I was just being goofy and participating in some shameless self-promotion. You know I Iove ya.
Mostly I feel sorry for them. And even more so for the women they will encounter in their lives.
Our society does its absolute damndest to destroy the natural human feelings of respect and love that straight males would normally be biologically inspired to feel for women, and replace them with hate and contempt. (And ours is better than 90% of history.) When you look at how straight women, gay men and gay women look at the people they are attracted to, you see that it's natural and normal to want to see objects of your desire being interesting, accomplished people, to look up to them, to respect them, even to want to be like them in some ways. Only straight men are contemptuous of the people they are attracted to. And not all of them. Because that's not natural. It's not evolutionarily useful to be contemptuous of your mates -- you should be looking for the most accomplished mate you can, in the areas you care about, because their genes will make your children survive better -- and when you see everyone but straight men exhibit a certain behavior, and the straight men don't, it really strongly suggests that something cultural, not biological, is going on. (To clarify, bi men do this too to the women they want, but not to the men they want to nearly the same extent, unless they are deliberately pursuing men who present in a feminized manner.)
Men are supposed to love and respect women, to want to be their friends, to look up to impressive and talented women, because that's biology. But men are taught to have contempt for women, and any man who doesn't have contempt for women is lambasted by other men and treated with contempt by them. The entire reason MLP has a male following is anonymity; prior to the existence of 4chan, there was nowhere men could go where, in total anonymity, not even linked to a screen name, they could admit to loving a girl's show. Now that brony fandom is out of the closet, so to speak, it still has a lot of baggage from having come into existence via anonymous guys talking to other anonymous guys, because of course complete anonymity breeds some of the worst human behavior.
But the reason men were attracted to MLP was that there were a large number of strong, interesting women with different personalities, and the fact that they are horses mitigates the need to denigrate any sexual woman. Women who give you a boner are sluts or madonnas, but ponies who are interesting people can remain interesting people. But they have female voices, which makes them feminine enough for straight men to be fascinated with them. I have found, in my travels in anime fandom mostly, that men are desperate for good female characters they can look up to, love and respect; but there's also that endless reiteration of "bros before hos", the idea that if you are not contemptuous of the women you're attracted to, you're letting down the side. So a guy can be fascinated with a show about female superheroes fighting Cthuloid monsters, but if they don't have huge jiggly tits he can't explain to his dudebro friends why he's watching it and then they'll look down on him.
And this is why I think MLP is simultaneously a feminist triumph for men -- the first show to prove that men can respect, love and look up to strong female characters, identify with them and empathize with them, even when they are almost entirely unsexualized -- and a critical indicator of how far we have to go, given the degree to which many of those men then turned around and created fan art or fic that sexualized and degraded those characters, and how many of those men have no concept that feminism is not the real enemy, the other men who put them down when they like and respect women are.
(Also, to be entirely fair, I suspect women in power in society might behave just as badly. I have been involved in fandom for twenty-five years, and I cannot tell you the number of male characters I have seen raped, woobiefied, treated as incompetent to protect themselves who must be saved by another beloved male character or a female self-insert, and generally been made totally OOC, degraded, and sexualized, by female writers and artists. The main difference, I think, is that this behavior is much, much creepier coming from men because the likelihood that a given real-life man might actually be a rapist is about 3-7%, whereas the likelihood that a given real-life woman might actually be a rapist is near zero. And the likelihood that the real-life man might mistreat women he finds sexually attractive, by slut-shaming them, or women he does not find sexually attractive, by fat-shaming them, or generally by shaming women for their looks, is vastly higher than the likelihood that the real-life woman will do the same to men... not because women wouldn't totally do that if society was set up to facilitate it, but society isn't, so the women writing about men being degraded and broken actually have very little power to do that to men in real life.)
(Note also: as a writer who frequently tortures male characters, I do have to point out that when I'm talking about women writing men as sexualized and degraded, I am not talking about "dude character gets tortured or raped, survives it and works through the repercussions with the help of his friends"; I am mostly talking about "dude character gets raped by the other member of the pairing and loves it," "dude character is kidnapped and spends the entire story crying and wringing his hands and doing nothing to save himself as the evil villain uses him as a sex toy, and all of the active behavior with agency comes from the dude coming to rescue him", etc. Treating guy characters as badly as the female characters you're ranting about get treated, basically.)
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Thank you for writing this. I 100% agree with you, but it's good to see it written out.
It's really depressing to me that men are biologically programmed to want to be friends and lovers towards women, but they throw it all away. I'm bi, but tend to be more strongly attracted towards men and as you know I've run into some less-than-stellar ones.
There are so many unhappy people in the world right now, and if guys and girls got on better I suspect many of those people would be happy. The divide between women and straight men just ultimately makes EVERYONE miserable, because both sides have expectations that cannot be met.
See, that's the thing. I've no doubt that it was initially the strong characters that attracted a male fanbase, but then the majority of male fans suddenly started saying things like "It's not really for little girls. It's a manly cartoon" without any hint of irony. And of course the porn started. I mean, I know it's the internet and Rule34, but some MLP NSFW stuff isn't just rule34, it's "let me draw sexy fan art of this female character, because I'm totally embarrassed about liking her for her brain, so I'll just fap to her instead." It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. Even I'm given the sideeye for liking MLP by some people, because the fandom has such a bad reputation through the male fanbase.
Not that everything that's gross is entirely the male fanbase. I know there are female fans out there that internalize the worst aspects of misogyny and write gross fic too. You just mentioned the type.
As I said upthread, I don't think rape can never be used in stories. My problem is it being used as titillation or a lazy plot device such as the one you just mentioned. Don't know if you saw that link that discussed the Rick and Morty episode, but I think that's an excellent example of how rape can be tackled in a story- it shows that Rick cares about Morty and is willing to protect his grandson, which is something that the viewer wasn't entirely sure about until now. (Note: Rick is a misanthrope and asshole.)
I've used rape in my stories as my own catharsis for what happened to me and because I think Discord is the type of person who would get used and abused by someone because he is so needy. Luckily he has people who care about him to help him through it.
I can't say I like or agree with any of the hated opinions you just listed from the darker parts of the fandom, though I haven't seen it as frequently as you it seems. Keep in mind, if all the good people let a few of the bad apples spoil things for them and leave, then of course the fandom will seem like crap, because all the decent and good fans are letting themselves be driven out by the bad ones!
They should instead do their best to stick around and let the crappy ideas and shit roll off their backs. I know that's easier said then done, but the other option is to let the good people scatter to the four winds and hope they magically group around something else again as a fresh start like they did with MLP in the beginning, and that's a LONG shot.
In short, I think it's better to stand your ground and reinforce the good stone of the fortress of fandom you love, TOGETHER, rather than abandon the place and let the hordes of stupidity conquer the fandom for themselves.