Just something I want saved. · 12:12am Apr 10th, 2014
In case you're curious, I wrote this.
It came from this thread.
http://www.fimfiction.net/group/50/the-writers-group/thread/61010/love-and-tolerate
This thread was also the first thread I had ever started on the site.
Regarding MLP:FiM, where in the world did this idea of love and tolerance come from?
Seriously, could you point me to an episode + time stamp that even somewhat implies this? Maybe it's in a book or comic someone put out that many people have read and I just don't know about it? If it's in the TV show, it's invisible to me. Nothing about the series gave me the idea to "love and tolerate" anything, and I actually think that's a ridiculous and harmful message to send. Assuming that "love and tolerate" means attempting to love your enemies and forgetting about everything they've ever done.
Celestia is pretty much what seems to be the poster pony for worldly maturity in the series and even she doesn't follow hat rulet. She certainly didn't "love and tolerate" Queen Chrysalis or Discord. In fact, she openly displayed her negative feelings for them. The Mane 6 definitely don't follow this, Remember how they acted towards Zecora before Twilight told them they were being crazy? Even Pinkie Pie didn't want to try to be friends with Zecora, which is flat out crazy to me. And then there's how Rarity blew up on Prince Blueblood.
To me, it seemed to send the message not to condemn someone just because of what they look like, what their behavior's like, what they may have done, etc., that even those who seem irredeemable can be redeemed, that someone you're at odds with isn't necessarily your enemy and someone you're not at odds with isn't necessarily your friend, and that even if someone is your enemy or friend doesn't mean that they can't turn into the other -- basically, that two people can get along if even one of them tries and that they can easily break apart only if they both agree to. But I don't think any of it was to say "love and tolerate the ones who make your life miserable".
Thoughts?
Edit 2:
http://www.fimfiction.net/group/199752/the-group-dedicated-to-doing-whatever-we-want-whenever-we-want/thread/94962/moral-bending-question#comment/2949911
My take on friendship and enmity.
ChocoLoco
My experiment here on this website has taught me that hating a person is pointless.Which, oddly enough, also lead to the conclusion that liking someone is pointless.
Berry Punch
Why is it pointless to like someone? I made some nice friends here.
ChocoLoco
Hmm. Now that I'm thinking about it, I put that in an awkward way.This was a part of the first thread I ever made on the site:
To me, it (MLP:FiM) seemed to send the message not to condemn someone just because of what they look like, what their behavior's like, what they may have done, etc., that even those who seem irredeemable can be redeemed, that someone you're at odds with isn't necessarily your enemy and someone you're not at odds with isn't necessarily your friend, and that even if someone is your enemy or friend doesn't mean that they can't turn into the other -- basically, that two people can get along if even one of them tries and that they can easily break apart only if they both agree to.
In the past, when I got a negative feeling about someone, that doomed them for me. They were just the bad, forever, and there was nothing they could do to undo that. Now I know that it's not beneficial to think that way all the time. Also, the more you think of them like that, the more they'll become that in your eyes, and harboring bad feelings for someone doesn't do anything good for you, particularly when you don't get to hurt them, so you either have to figure out a way to let it go or a way to hurt them.
Though I understood the message, I didn't trust it, so I started posting on the forums in order to test it out. Whenever I considered someone to be the bad, I forced myself to talk to that person just so I can see if there's some side to them that doesn't make them this asshole/douchebag/idiot I see them as. Every single time, it worked. I always saw something I liked. Some of my most favorite people on here were people I once thought of as the bad. Through this experimentation, I've learned that it's true that anyone can be the good if they try, and if they're not it's either because they're not able to control themselves well enough to be of benefit/avoid being harmful or they're being not good on purpose, and if they're being not good on purpose then that means they have a reason for that, and the best way of dealing with the problem after that is to find out what that reason is and alleviate the pain caused by it and avoid aggravating it in the future. And so I started thinking, if anyone can use methods this simple to make people they hate into people they don't hate anymore, then it's pointless to dislike them because that element is susceptible to manipulation. Think about it: if you had a magic wand that made it so that the biggest assholes you know stopped being assholes, would you still go around thinking "God, that guy is SUCH an asshole, I want to kick his ass!
"? You'd probably just zap them and think nothing bad about them. They're a problem you can easily fix.
BUT.
If that's the conclusion reachable on the side of a person's negative side, then it should also hold weight on the positive side. The situations are pretty much identical, aren't they? Just as a person can choose to stop being shitty to you, they can also choose to stop being good to you.
So the end picture pretty much looks like everyone's going to do whatever the fuck they want, you just choose whether you're gonna cooperate with them, oppose them, or stay neutral.
Well, yes you could always love and tolerate in the sense of respecting people. But the true sense of the phrase "love and tolerate" will never exist.
In today's world, that phrase is just like me handing you a pamphlet that says love and you just throw it on the side afterwards. I have a mission with that, but as for now I agree with what you're saying.
Nope, you hit it spot on.
1995862
Wow. I was just putting it up in my blog so I wouldn't have to go way back to that thread to go and get it. I didn't know anyone was actually interested in talking about it.
1995855
I think "love and tolerate" shouldn't be followed by anyone. I've a few reasons for this.
People -- not just those of today, but all those that have ever existed, regardless of how loosely connected or tightly knitted they were to one another -- don't seem to accept the pain of others until they're forced to. In fact, they tend to seem annoyed by it. For example, if you break up with your boyfriend/girlfriend, that's a "first world problem"; you're not freezing to death because you have a roof over your head nor are you starving because you have food on the table, so you have nothing to complain about. That completely negates the fact that breaking up with someone can be a very painful experience, and by being callous towards that person you're just being an insensitive asshole. Even when people complain about much smaller things, ex. had to park too far from the door to work, had to work late so you missed your favorite TV show, those experiences suck. Even if there were ways they could've been managed better, that doesn't make their happening any less sucky. Not many people seem to understand that they're attacking others by showing such callousness. It's one thing to point out that a person only complains, but it's another to say that their complaint is invalid because others are worse off than they are.
I would not recommend anyone to love and tolerate someone who intends to do them harm, and neither does MLP. In fact, I encourage them to sap any such people of their power to do harm. Some things are absolutely intolerable, at least I think so, and you cannot love or tolerate someone who both continually causes you pain and either loves seeing you in it or doesn't care that you've been hurt.
1996273 Well, if you and another person in jail were trapped in the same prison and the person tells you about how he wants you to help him get out of jail and that he keeps telling you he doesn't belong there would that not annoy you?
The reason all people that have ever existed would not want to accept or understand another person's pain is because everyone has their problems, everyone has an ore on their back. It's only a free man that can really accept and understand a person's pain.
And in this day and age that chance of freedom is only harder to obtain and be.
So can love and tolerate be followed? Yes, it was what this universe was built on. But why can't we see it? Well, let's just say no everyone is free from their shackles of life. Not everyone can see through all the deceit that is placed before their eyes everyday without seeing it.
Because those that are able to see through and lift up the sheets that cover the true reality will truly know what love and tolerance really is.
1996329
It would. I wasn't trying to say that it's not annoying. Just cause they're causing you pain too doesn't mean they're not in any. That's actually a pretty difficult thing to recognize. It took me being friends with someone who's very sweet generally and hostile when angry to realize that it was even a possibility. But yeah, when someone's trying to express how they're pained and your response is to say something that they take as an attack, you're essentially informing them that their pain's irrelevant.
I like to think of it more as A's problems don't affect B, so B has no reason to care.
As for freedom, I think I heard it in Black Lagoon before? This is how I picture freedom:
Though I think that what you mean by freedom is that people don't have the choice to freely chase after they want to because of life circumstances (Ex. work, children, people standing against them, lack of ability, lack of support, lack of opportunity)? Not sure. Either way, I don't think that being capable of seeing through deceit would make one love and tolerate, it'd just make them see more clearly. That doesn't guarantee that someone becomes more loving or tolerant.
It could always have been followed. I just personally disagree with the thought that it's a good idea. I think people should stick together but also call them out when they're doing stuff that hurts them or someone else and they work to fix it.
1996631
Oh... now I get it. Well, goodness that is actually what I was not going for at all in terms of meaning. A person who does the opposite chooses to be blind. That what you said there makes perfect sense. I thought of the phrase, well genuinely with that thought being only logical.
1997162
Don't think I quite understand. What are you saying?
1997461 Hmm... well I agree with what you are saying Upon reading this:
1997468
I'd like that, but we all seem too separate from each other for that to be a reality.
The part that's really sad is that even when I try to picture effective ways of bring us all together, I can't help but picture it not only being done through force, but being held together by force. All of the world, enslaved.
1997487 Yeah, or through some great apocalyptic happening. :(
1997488
Even then, things like cultural identities or even simply knowing that there's a difference between people of your skin color and people of their skin color would keep us separate.
Though, yes, I do think that we'd come together under pressure. We'd have no choice.
1997501 Right :)
Basically what everyone else was saying, but I was frustrated a few days ago and wrote This about the subject.
Its kinda odd, i wrote the blog post, and then i see a bunch of people writing about the subject as well in the following days.
2024198
I keep having to go back and get that last part of the post to show to people so they can see how I see the show.
You might find this useful, optimist.
2154716
I love everything that person wrote. Thank you for showing me that.
2154784
1- Google is your friend.
2- Optimist. o7
3- I have this niggling recollection that the actual phrase came from a previous generation, but I wouldn't quote myself on that until I found a valid source.
4- Liar. o7
5- Your fic though. Lolwat.
6- Continue writing, but I'd advise against the dark stuff. You don't seem to have a firm handle on it.
7- Also this, for more academically-inclined reading.
2154824
Optimist is a strange word to describe me. I don't think it fits. I try to be realistic in fact.
I'll continue writing dark or whatever else comes to mind. Not like I can get worse. Even if I do, I'm not gonna go to hell for writing bad fics sooo...
2154830
I think it fits quite well, but that might just be me. shrugs I'm only going by the posts that I've seen you write, but I'll be damned if you're a pessimist. And realist is a difficult thing to define, depending on your philosophical, religious, social, etc. etc., beliefs. XD No matter what, our perceptions of you are going to differ, and while you might have much more experience with yourself and feedback from others before me, I still offer an unbiased view in it. But, small sample size of your material detracts from that. Gah. I'm going to stop there.
As far as your writing: By all means, do and write what you see fit. I'm just basing my advice on what I read. As far as going to hell for bad fanfiction, I'm damn sure there are some fanfic'ers that'd disagree with you on every count. XD And Hell. Meh. I'll follow Socrates on that one.
Fine, how's about enlightened, mature, benevolent, forgiving, or perceptive?
2154871
Enlightened, mature, and perceptive work.
2154910
applause Good choices... But.
tacks on "forgiving" For Dragor.
2154953
Huh? What's this about him?
2154980
To be brief: While browsing through Fimfiction, I somehow meandered my way onto a certain thread on the Virgin Bronies group. Can't remember precisely where I came from, think it was somewhere in the direction of the_parasprite. In any case, I browsed through the first half out of interest on others' opinions, and the second half for Frozen gifs.
You seemed to be the only one in particular who was keeping a somewhat open mind about the whole Dragor debacle, and after reading through it all again I realized how closed-minded I was being about it. I still think Dragor is an asshole, but you're right in many ways, I feel.
So, I'm pretty sure that Forgiving is worth tacking on, if only because there's some need to at least willing to forgive in order to understand and desire change, as you expressed.
EDIT: That was not as brief as I would have liked. Bleh.
2155023
I don't think there was any way to shorten that and still follow the rules of English.
I've tried about 10 different times already to start up a reply but I don't know how to express everything accurately.
When people read what Dragor said, they saw an asshole, because they're just looking at "Wow, these thoughts came directly from this guy's head!". But no one knows why he said it and they don't question why. They simply see something they don't like, and so it must be demonized. Knowing about the person is crucial to understanding them correctly. Not a lot of people get this though. Most people, you can tell them the most horribly evil things there are to say, but if you express them in a very positive way, they'll accept what you've said in a positive way. If you want to get to the truth of the matter though, you have to do more than just understand the words in order to receive the intended message.
So one of the reasons people dislike him for what he said is how he expressed his thoughts. We live in a time today where you are demonized if you do anything regarding girls that seems negative. I don't know if I can say that his words put them in a negative light (cause I don't remember and don't wanna go back to read it right now), but it certainly didn't put them in a positive one and that has people upset. That's what they look at. That's where everyone stopped. I came to a different conclusion.
1996329
Um...dude...I don't mean to sound like a dick, but the cornerstones of our universe are not propped up by an arbitrary fabrication borne of anthropomorphism projected onto reality. It's the other way around. Look at nature. Look at how chimps interact with one another. Humans created these touchy-feely ideals to feel better about the inherent dissonance of superiority/inferiority in our species and is now functioning as the very impetus that's driving the inevitable decay of our egalitarian/utilitarian civilizations. "Tolerance" is an entirely subjective measure of what one would consider acceptable. And "love" is an entirely different animal of it's own that we've still yet to understand beyond a correlation to the hormone "oxytocin," dopaminergic/serotonergic interactions through the blood-brain barrier, psycho-social studies, and the regulatory functions of the amygdala. We pretty much just forcibly projected these ideas onto "objective" reality roughly about after the 1789 French Revolution.
Once again...didn't mean to be a dick or a pedantic shitfuck. Just dropping my "two cents" in the coin slot is all.
2265817 Umm... the meaning of love and tolerance people talk of especially in this fandom at times is for the most part, fantasy.
And man, this convo is so old. I forgot I ever commented on this.
2266035
I wasn't talking about some tongue-in-cheek motto slung around by neckbeards on some Internet forum, man. I was talking about a legitimate delusion of modernity. I assumed you were doing the same in that comment. And the age of a post shouldn't be a factor in diminishing it's validity or impact. I simply saw something posted that piqued my interest, so I ponderously evacuated the impacted bowel that is my "reasoning" all over it. (a.k.a. forcibly unloading my ungainly perspectives on others without prompt)
2266081 Yes, I was. I also have nothing against what mentioned in your prior comment, but I must say it did come to me at the wrong time. It's nighttime where I am and your vocabulary and sentences weren't something my mind could see through easily. <:3
2266118
Oh. My bad, dude. Hope you can get some shut-eye finally. I'm too jacked up on speed right now to sleep myself. Oh, but how the Cosmos forever turns it's incalculable Gears for all but myself.
m8