The biggest one is the treatment of women. Many people say that up until feminism was a thing women were "treated like chattel". This was not the case. Women were and are people to be valued, to be held the most important. There are a few examples of this. First of all is the tradition of not letting women serve in the armed forces. Why is this? Is it because the patriarchy seeks to destroy women's right to choose? Of course not. It's because throughout history women were considered people who had to be kept out of harm's way at all costs. They are not expendable. They are very important. Another is much more simple, the way iron age towns worked. They would bath once every one or two weeks, using a single tub of water, a red hot bar of iron to keep it warm, and a pile of clay. The women were always made to go clean themselves first. Let me clarify that, women were considered important so therefore they got to clean themselves in the cleanest water. Then, the men were able to clean. Finally, they cleaned the clothes. And both men and women did that.

Then there is slavery. We have all heard this story - the evil European empires captured and destroyed black populations because they were black and different and racist! This is very, very wrong. First of all, throughout all of Human history, up until the British Empire slavery was used in almost every society throughout all of human history. China, Japan, India, Ethiopia, Berbers, Mesopotamia, Egypt, they all had slaves and it was considered the norm. And, in fact, they were not black. Most of the history of slavery had white people being enslaved by white people, black people being enslaved by black people, and Asians being enslaved by Asians. So- no. There is no inherent racism throughout history that involved the constant oppression of black people.

Wars. It's constantly said "Humans go to war for resources and money!!!!!!!" This is also not true. Throughout all of human history wars were fought more often out of self defense and necessities than wealth or territory. A good example is Nazi Germany. "OH BUT TREKEE! DON'T DEFEND THE NAZIS!" Shut the fuck up. Germany didn't expand because "DAH WURLD DOMNATION!" It expanded because Germany needed food. They were close to starving, and Germany had a huge issue keeping up with the population. Same thing with the Japanese Empire. They expanded and plundered to save themselves from starvation. Of course that still isn't good, but it was more than just "MUH WALLET IZ EMPTY!!!!" And then of course the biggest example of all is the crusades. The first crusade was in vengeance, and the rest were in self defense. Not to go convert as many muslims as possible because "they are different!"

Speaking of Germany, that is another thing we have twisted around in history that ended up making humans look like bastards. A majority of Germans were very good people. They fought for their country, just like how an American would fight for America, or a Frenchman would fight for France, the Germans fought for Germany. Not to destroy and slaughter people in some blood lust driven rampage. There are many examples for the Wermacht to be good people. For example, they disregarded Hitler's orders in order to keep their forces from being slaughtered. A German general surrendered in order to preserve the history, architecture, and infrastructure of a German city when it was about to be besieged by the Americans. Or when a German pilot risked his life to escort a wounded Allied bomber back to Britain. Don't even get me started on the innumerable assassination attempts on Hitler by various high ranking German officers.

Those are just a few examples of how history has been twisted around and turned to make humans look like the ultimate super villains. I'm not trying to preach to the choir, but just proving a point that our history is used to villainize our own species.

4386652 That's what the goverment wants you to think!

4386652
4386671
It's the Illuminati's fault.

4386652

"treated like chattel"

I see someone else watches Sargon.

I agree with you.

4386701 Quiet, you Illuminati scum!

4386717
I'm m only trying to control!

I wouldn't go so far to say that they were explicitly valued in the past, but men were still the expendable gender, that is true.
Now, however, they are far more priviliged. The wage gap is a myth, and they are 'more equal' so to speak in every other respect than men.
At least in most first-world countries. This does not hold so much in Africa, Middle East, parts of Asia, of course.

4386652 Anything can be misconstrued by someone who doesn't fully understand the event or someone with a serious ax to grind. History isn't just written by the victors, it's written by human beings with all the preconceptions, prejudices, and bias that it might entail. I'm not even sure one can be 100% objective when looking back on history, considering all the emotions that get attached to certain events.

In some cultures, if I recall, women could join the military, or at least fight, like the Norse, and in Sparta, there was at least one case of a Spartan Queen leading people into battle. There was also one famous Japanese general who was a woman

These days its pretty much usless to argue against them.

Hey its Lindybeige.

Did you see this one?

4386652 I remember a story from my Intro to American history class in college. The class was at the part about the internment/concentration camps in America for the Japanese Americans to live in just because they were Japanese by heritage or birth. This one girl said that they deserved this because they attacked us. The professor said to her that it was the IJN and IJAF backed by Todo and his administration, not these civilians who weren't spies and had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. She said and I quote "Yes but THEY attacked us." So by her logic because I'm half German I'm responsible for the Holocaust.

The one thing these misanthropists don't seem to get into their skulls is that humans also have a great capacity for change. After WWI, there was an attempt by the majority of the world to stop conflict altogether. While this was unsuccessful it was still an attempt to change. After WWII this became more practical and after the Cold War (for now) there is little conflict between two or more nations.

4387032
That's not true. There were very few nordic warriors who were women and the ones that are were found to be few and far between.

4387154
Yep.

4387225
As far as I know there are no conflicts between any two nations at the moment. All of the current conflicts are civil wars, domestic instability, or terrorist power struggles. Even North and South Korea are starting to open up with each other.
https://www.womencrossdmz.org/

4387250 Aside from the Norse, the other examples. Also, there is one Spartan quote saying "Why must women rule over men?" with a woman replying, in paraphrase, "Because it is we who give birth to men."

4387257
What point are you trying to make? Women generally didn't go to war. That is a fact.

4387265 Just saying, still, I agree with your post

4387250 As much as Putin denies it, it's a "limited" war between Russia and Ukraine and Israel and Palestine are slugging it out via missiles. If you count ISIS as a nation then there's them.

4386652 Let's not forget about colonial slavery in America. People always tried to make it black and white, especially in Colonial America, despite the fact some of first blacks in Jamestown were treated as indentured servants, and one became one of first slaveholders in the Virginia.

4388068 I love how that last little bit is always left out of discussions.

4387225 Tojo, not Todo. Imperial Japan was run by a military junta and was going through prime ministers like they were going out of fashion. Interesting enough, the Army was constantly at odds with the Navy.

4389520 ..........I have brought shame to my family.

4388464 Tell me about it.

4386652

The biggest one is the treatment of women. Many people say that up until feminism was a thing women were "treated like chattel". This was not the case. Women were and are people to be valued, to be held the most important. There are a few examples of this. First of all is the tradition of not letting women serve in the armed forces. Why is this? Is it because the patriarchy seeks to destroy women's right to choose? Of course not. It's because throughout history women were considered people who had to be kept out of harm's way at all costs. They are not expendable. They are very important. Another is much more simple, the way iron age towns worked. They would bath once every one or two weeks, using a single tub of water, a red hot bar of iron to keep it warm, and a pile of clay. The women were always made to go clean themselves first. Let me clarify that, women were considered important so therefore they got to clean themselves in the cleanest water. Then, the men were able to clean. Finally, they cleaned the clothes. And both men and women did that.

Colour me very skeptical about the idea that women "weren't all that oppressed" throughout history. They certainly weren't all oppressed all the time and you have countless examples of women achieving positions of significant power and influence and there are many cultures in which women were granted special privileges that men were not but as a whole, despite what those MRA activist types would like to tell you, there was still significant oppression of women.

Look at one of the surviving patriarchal societies today like the culture of rural Afghanistan - that certainly isn't a great culture for women. And as for victorian european culture wanting to "protect" women; well they were protecting them as they viewed them alternatively as children or as the means of production of more europeans rather than protecting them for being the people they are - that's not a compliment! Besides just look at how hard the suffragettes had to fight to get the vote and just how these people slandered independent women.

Then there is slavery. We have all heard this story - the evil European empires captured and destroyed black populations because they were black and different and racist! This is very, very wrong. First of all, throughout all of Human history, up until the British Empire slavery was used in almost every society throughout all of human history. China, Japan, India, Ethiopia, Berbers, Mesopotamia, Egypt, they all had slaves and it was considered the norm. And, in fact, they were not black. Most of the history of slavery had white people being enslaved by white people, black people being enslaved by black people, and Asians being enslaved by Asians. So- no. There is no inherent racism throughout history that involved the constant oppression of black people.

How precisely does that make humans better than they are portrayed? The fact that slavery was present in nearly every society throughout history until quite recently does mean that Europeans aren't uniquely evil but it paints humanity as a whole in a bad light.

Wars. It's constantly said "Humans go to war for resources and money!!!!!!!" This is also not true. Throughout all of human history wars were fought more often out of self defense and necessities than wealth or territory. A good example is Nazi Germany. "OH BUT TREKEE! DON'T DEFEND THE NAZIS!" Shut the fuck up. Germany didn't expand because "DAH WURLD DOMNATION!" It expanded because Germany needed food. They were close to starving, and Germany had a huge issue keeping up with the population. Same thing with the Japanese Empire. They expanded and plundered to save themselves from starvation. Of course that still isn't good, but it was more than just "MUH WALLET IZ EMPTY!!!!" And then of course the biggest example of all is the crusades. The first crusade was in vengeance, and the rest were in self defense. Not to go convert as many muslims as possible because "they are different!"

Going to war for food is a textbook example of going to war for resources.

And I find the claim that the Germans *had* to go to war for food to be one of the most dubious things I've ever read. Britain was following a policy of appeasement - if food could have prevented the war then food they would have had.

They went to war for neither food nor wealth nor resources. They went to war for ideology (Hilter believed he was creating a new german empire that would tower over the world like the Roman empire did and when it eventually collapsed would similarly inspire culture for the next 1000 years). And revenge for the first world war (aided by the myth that Germany was "stabbed in the back" by the people who negotiated the surrender). This is what most historians believe, this is what I was taught in History. If anyone is seriously advocating the war fought for food idea in academic circles they are in the fringe.

----------------------------------------------

"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
Our history is littered with atrocities. And we've still got a lot more work ahead of us. But we've made great strides. Humanity was not born good but we're not bastards anymore. And by working to continue to further the ideals of the enlightenment we can continue to make progress, continue to strive towards a better tomorrow.

4390451
No, you're wrong. You are thinking about this in a good vs evil kind of way. "Humanity was not born good but we're not bastards anymore" has to be the most flawed statement I have ever read. That is simply not how it works. Yes, there were some societies that were bad, yes, there was slavery, but my point on those completely went over your head. And you know why? Because in your world there can only be good groups and only be evil groups. This isn't a fairy tale, with a white prince with an army of good and a black knight with an army of orcs. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, that's not how it works.

4390922

That's not true at all, that's a strawman you have constructed of my worldview. There is plenty of room for grey in my worldview. The US during the cold war for instance is the first example that comes to mind. On one hand you have stuff like Vietnam and MKUltra and on the other hand you have the moon landing and the fact that they were fighting for liberal democratic principles.

4392012
Lol "HUR U R STRAWMANME!!!!"

I would like you to read this line from your own words and then try to come up with a reason as to why I would think you see everything in black and white.

Humanity was not born good but we're not bastards anymore.

That is a black vs. white argument and it's hilarious that you would try to deny it.

4392097

Lol "HUR U R STRAWMANME!!!!"
I would like you to read this line from your own words and then try to come up with a reason as to why I would think you see everything in black and white.

I've re-read it and it seems fine to me. I suspect the reason you see it as black and white comes down to your own pre-conceptions.

For instance claiming that WW2 wasn't a necessary war fought for food is the generally accepted historical narrative.

That is a black vs. white argument and it's hilarious that you would try to deny it.

No it isn't. I said that though humanity has improvement left to accomplish (so we're not perfectly good) we're better than we were (so we're not perfectly evil). That by definition isn't a black and white argument, which would only see those two possibilities.

4392401
No, this is what you said.

Humanity was not born good but we're not bastards anymore.

4392419

Which was proceeded by

Our history is littered with atrocities. And we've still got a lot more work ahead of us. But we've made great strides.

Context should clue you in.

4392560
I ignored it because it contradicts itself. "We have a way to go as humans." "We aren't bastards anymore."

Choose one. You can't have both, no offense.

4392564

It's not contradictory. You assume that one has to be morally perfect, or at least as close to perfect as is attainable, to not be a bastard. It seems to me that you're the one doing the black and white thinking here.

You can still be in need of moral improvement without being so evil as to be a bastard. You can be a shade of grey. Furthermore you can be a bastard without being 100% evil.

It's a pretty subjective term in all and I was just using it because of the title of this group, I thought it would sound good to phrase it like that.

4392723

It seems to me that you're the one doing the black and white thinking here.

I know you are, but what am I?

4392785

I explained why my point was not contradictory when viewed in non-black and white terms. If you disagree with my logic there then please post why.

I think you're seriously misguided on the reasons for German and Japanese expansionism. Both regimes were built on extremely racist beliefs and a wish to see their nations ruling totally dominant in the world. Some of these feelings might have been justified, considering Germany suffered so terribly after World War One and wished to reach a new height of power where it couldn't suffer so badly ever again, and Japan was pretty much the only non-white nation to be considered a serious power and so had a front-row seat to what Western Colonialism could do in subjugating other nations and as such also coveted such an extreme position, but these things only serve to frame the kind of thinking that went into these people's minds, and do not at all excuse the Rape of Nanking, the construction of Auschwitz and Dachau (among many others), the reprisals against partisan forces that saw entire villages murdered, and the various other crimes carried out in the name of the strength both nations believed would come from racial purity.

And before I get flamed, I know full well what atrocities the Allies committed. The atomic bombings of Japan, the firebombing of Dresden, the utter decimation leveled on civilian population centers of opposing nations, basically, there was a lot of horrible shit going down. I'm not trying to justify anything there. But there was a lot of dark crap behind the motivations of World War Two all around, and I think the whole war really went to show off the best and worst mankind could do.

6550658
And no, I'm not a misanthrope. I love and see great potential in every human. I just also acknowledge that potential can be twisted into something horrible. If nothing else, World War Two at least taught us that.

6550936
Jesus seriously? Good damn question. It got pointed out to me by a friend, but now I have some questions for that friend. Like...why are they surfing the ancient archives of an fimfiction thread...wtf.