I've already been reading two stories on the matter of Chrysalis being judged for her crimes. Most of them were legalities and stuff and to be frank... I have no idea how the law would treat Chrysalis in all the different personalities that she has according to fanon. How would it treat a good Chrysalis? An evil one? How about if they were starving? If insanity was driving them to a frenzy towards Canterlot? In any case I'm not an expert on the law so I can't really say...

Despite all that I would like to explore a possible "Divine Judgement" of Chrysalis. Here's the idea... Queens and Kings are chosen/deemed worthy, and bloodline only ensures you'll be the first to try out to fill that role. The crown is actually used by 3 ancient changeling rulers's spirits that judge one's ability to rule and grant the wearer abilities or queenhood status and magic. Each spirit would represent the mind, the heart/body, and the soul. Call it whatever you like. I got inspired by the comic of Alux and the Lost Legion where a King of the East had made a crown that poisoned and maddened those that didn't know its secret and weren't of the bloodline. In cases that there wouldn't be a Queen/King there would be a council of 12 families/houses that would rule together the Kingdom.

In any case said rulers would have the ability to take back this status from the Queen should they deem so. Because however they wouldn't want to waste Queen/King material. So to help said candidate understand his/her mistakes they would punish them in the form of "emotional feedback". They would bring upon the punished the pain caused in the souls, hearts, and minds of those they hurt in an attempt to restore the empathetic nature of the changelings that they lost. It would be an intense and painful experience but otherwise fair I believe. At least that's what I want to achieve... Of course the punished would still have to make any legal reparations but other than that he/she'd be pre-occupied with recollecting the scattered pieces of his/her soul.

What do you guys think? Ever thought about divine punishment for someone like Chrysalis? What would it be like? Is my idea any good?

4355145 As far as I am aware, since she announces herself as "Queen of the Changelings" and is recognized by the changelings as their leader, she committed an act of war, not a crime, regardless of her motivations and reasons. Therefore, as the losing side of a conflict, if our laws are similar to how international discourse is resolved in Equestria's world, Chrissie could:

Be charged for war crimes if her forces killed civilians (they didn't seem to, in fact they appeared to be taking care to capture everypony alive. Which makes sense, they wanted food.)
Be required to pay reparations to Equestria to compensate for lost infrastructure, and the disruption to their economy.
Be forced to sign a non-aggression pact which disallows her from making hostile actions for the next X years, and dismantle her military.

Basically Chrissie would, under real world current international laws, be required to submit to whatever Celestia demanded of her within reason. A third party would oversee the matter and determine if Celestia was being unfair.

If instead it works like medieval Europe, jack shit would happen to her. She lost the war. If Celestia decides not to retaliate, nothing will happen to her.

4355660 Crimes, war crimes... does it matter? Is it truly different?

and dismantle her military.

Like this affected Germany in any way after WWI and WWII. Germany is still one of the strongest countries economically.

Crimes, war crimes... does it matter? Is it truly different?

I suppose it isn't if you don't see mass slaughter of civilians by an organized, well armed and trained force with a clear goal any different from a few angry/crazy people firing into a crowd of people in public.

Like this affected Germany in any way after WWI and WWII. Germany is still one of the strongest countries economically.

Exactly. Surrender negotiations are more powerful in influencing a country than a war effort is. That's why most nations today just impose sanctions on each other.

4355660

As far as I am aware, since she announces herself as "Queen of the Changelings" and is recognized by the changelings as their leader, she committed an act of war, not a crime, regardless of her motivations and reasons.

That'd depend on whether the changelings are considered a sovereign nation, no?

4356385 Their is no UN in this setting. Therefore the crown's authority comes from the consent of the governed. However, even if there were a UN in Equestria, the Swarm would be a sovereign nation because A they do not claim Equestrian citizenship, B they call themselves a nation, C we let the gypsies be their own nations despite no land.

Also even if there was a UN... it would have no power. Want to know how many UN decisions the USA abides by? Only the ones they feel like. Want to know how many UN decisions the USA breaks? The ones they feel like. Want to know how many UN treaties the USA signs that it follows? Not one in the UN's entire history. International councils have no real power.

4356385 That's something I've brought up in my stories. Since the changelings have come out of hiding, any sort of actual deals to be made, would need to be preceded by them being recognized as a nation unto themselves. If these agreements want to be seen as legitimate by more than just Equestria and the Changelings. Even if Celestia and Chrysalis came to an agreement, the Griffons or Zebra might take exception, simply on the basis of not being consulted.

Others have already covered realistic ways Chrysalis could be held accountable. Celestia and Luna might take harsher or gentler courses, or go for something more creative. As mentioned, apart from abducting and impersonating Cadence, the invasion was rather...neat and tidy as wars go. It's up in the air to whether Chrysalis had more sinister intentions for after the conquest, but they can't really judge her for what she might have done.

4355145 As to the idea of her being judged by some sort of quasi-godlike changeling spirits, the first question that comes to mind for me is...why would these spirits care if Chrysalis harmed ponies or the other races, as long as she was providing for changelings? If their first concern is for how she takes care of her changelings, at least.

EDIT: That also raises the question of why any would except the crown, if there was the constant risk of being arbitrarily smote by mystical beings. A ruler is a ruler, crown or no. How would this affect their history? Why would Chrysalis have invaded if she knew she'd have her mind shattered for her actions regardless of success of failure?

And whether or not the punishment fits, you'd have to settle on where Chrysalis falls morality-wise. Is she a complete monster with no empathy for others? If so, then that's a good punishment as death, I suppose. But, if she has more sympathetic motives and qualities, then such an extreme punishment sounds, well...extreme. Having your mind and soul ripped to tatters with sheer psychic anguish? If we have any sympathy for Chrysalis, that's going to make these ancient spirits seem more like monsters than anything, who have no consideration for circumstances or intent.

4355717 I meant it ironically... like Germany was and still is a power in the world.
4356385 That would in turn depend if there are universal standards in recognizing a nation. If you want to hide behind technicalities be my guest ((no offense to you)).
4356399 There's also veto decisions and generally UN as I see it is really lenient on what it does.
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As to the idea of her being judged by some sort of quasi-godlike changeling spirits, the first question that comes to mind for me is...why would these spirits care if Chrysalis harmed ponies or the other races, as long as she was providing for changelings? If their first concern is for how she takes care of her changelings, at least.

As I said if a ruler goes too far they would lose their empathy eventually losing what makes them changelings. Which would be a bad thing for a ruler of said nation that depends upon its ability to be empathetic. That doesn't mean one has to be a whimp but essentially evil or not they have to care about their subjects.

True the changeling "gods" would essentially have no care for what arbitrary political decisions one makes. Wars, treaties, peace... But they would care if e.g.she tried to mess with the planet's balance, exterminate a species for no reason, go on rampage just for the lulz, or even just hurt others and not... care.

That also raises the question of why any would except the crown, if there was the constant risk of being arbitrarily smote by mystical beings. A ruler is a ruler, crown or no. How would this affect their history? Why would Chrysalis have invaded if she knew she'd have her mind shattered for her actions regardless of success of failure?

Consider it like this... if the elements of Harmony are the superweapon that protects Equestria then the crown is the Superweapon that protects the changelings. One not wearing said crown would be a "Rogue Queen" and would constantly be challenged for her position nothing keeping her from being betrayed assassinated or otherwise. Wearing the crown solidifies power and grants a respect that every changeling dares not defy...

To picture how strong the crown can make a King/Queen simply picture Avatar State from the Avatar series.

And whether or not the punishment fits, you'd have to settle on where Chrysalis falls morality-wise. Is she a complete monster with no empathy for others? If so, then that's a good punishment as death, I suppose. But, if she has more sympathetic motives and qualities, then such an extreme punishment sounds, well...extreme. Having your mind and soul ripped to tatters with sheer psychic anguish? If we have any sympathy for Chrysalis, that's going to make these ancient spirits seem more like monsters than anything, who have no consideration for circumstances or intent.

Chrysalis would be the likes of "I care only about myself and those that follow me..." she wouldn't care about anyone else having lost trust and all from previous events. In an attempt to restore what she lost those spirits would make a harsh yet fair punishment.

The spirits have defended the changelings many-a-time throughout the ages. They have earned their place and praise for the changelings, so it is not a matter of whether they would be considered monsters from changelings at least.

4366043 I wouldn't really say it matters if the changelings think these spirits are monsters or not, but the readers. If Chrysalis has too sympathetic a backstory, then the spirits are going to come across as assholes, and you'll lose the reader. If Chrysalis is too unsympathetic, then we as readers have no investment in her redemption. And it will strain disbelief if she starts off as unrepentantly evil, but then gets punished in a really horrifying way and still ends up being a better person. At that point, it would seem more likely that she would just turn against these spirits fully. You say there are reasons she doesn't trust anyone anymore. If we as the readers sympathize too much with those reasons, then you run the risk of this fair punishment not seeming very fair. Was Chrysalis once worthy of the crown, but became unworthy overtime, or did the spirits misjudge her from the beginning? If the first, could the spirits have done something to help with that? If the second, why trust in their judgement if they can be so wrong?

There's a tightrope that I think you're going to have to walk for this story, I think is what I'm saying. It has potential, but it could prove challenging finding that balance.

On the issue of the crown itself, again, why would Chrysalis have invaded in the first place if she knew the crown's spirits were going to dole out a mind-shattering punishment onto her? And is there no way that the changelings could defend themselves without the crown? If there is, are there changelings that refuse to follow the crown and just look after themselves? If a competent, capable and all around awesome Queen came along that refused to take the crown, would they still refuse to follow her? How beholden to this crown are they?

And then there's the Lex Luthor argument: Have the changelings become so dependent on these spirits, that they've given up on taking care of themselves? Have changeling gotten to the point where they're just hopeless followers, with changelings like Chrysalis being among the few that are willing to act?

4366248 Well if it helps in any way despite Chrysalis not giving a damn about the rest of the species she freed the rest of her own species from long time oppression from WORSE rulers. The thing is that Chrysalis has gone over the point where she needs to feed and now seeks control. She wants Equestria not only for the food it provides, but for the power and prestige conquering it will give her. She feels her control over her life slipping and she wants it back. Even the closest ones near her start to doubt she is well after all this time. They follow her out of respect but no longer pride themselves in the war that is being committed.

This Chrysalis is a lost soul, clouded in darkness and illusion of control, grandeur, and the dream of happiness. Her closest general, one that grew to respect her experiences regret at not intervening. Right after she receives her judgement and falls down on the ground he rushes down to her. And while she confesses her regrets he reminds her all the good she's done as well and pleads her to stay. She sees that he secretly loves her and smiles before she falls to a slumber lasting for like... until she is needed I believe? She appoints him Reagent Lord/King until she returns saying "This time... you lead us... alright?"

On the issue of the crown itself, again, why would Chrysalis have invaded in the first place if she knew the crown's spirits were going to dole out a mind-shattering punishment onto her? And is there no way that the changelings could defend themselves without the crown? If there is, are there changelings that refuse to follow the crown and just look after themselves? If a competent, capable and all around awesome Queen came along that refused to take the crown, would they still refuse to follow her? How beholden to this crown are they?

She is kind of delusional. Plus that doesn't mean she knows. She doesn't have a 24/7 judge upon her head. However if there is a threat upon the changelings ((one of the three rulers has access to the changeling dreamscape and can essentially track down if deaths have happened. There's also the magic of the second Queen ((essentially a hive-mind like magic that is an extension of what every changeling can do. E.g. they can communicate with other changelings but on a limited scale and range, while the Queen may use the crown and overcharge it with her magic to guide the whole changeling race. It is a type of magic that strains a lot and must be used mostly for emergencies. E.g. Apocalyptic events of extinction events or demon threats)) they will join in their spirits using the crown as a conduit. The spirits have also been great figures throughout history and are heroes in and out of themselves. They don't want exactly to destroy the Queen, which is why they don't reject her as a Queen.

Chrysalis has the potential and the strength to endure this, which is why she was chosen in the first place. She aspired to become one of those that led the changelings out of the Dark Ages. Unlike her opponents she didn't capture ponies, and in fact freed some in the civil war made between the 12 families. But in order to win the war she... there's a proverb about this/expression in Greek ... "Poured too much water in her wine". Eventually this among other events like power-hungry lovers, pre-princess history of changeling rejection, murdered loved ones, and the discovery of a vindictive side that led to the burning of an entire estate are only some of the events preludes to the legend of her madness.

On that note some of this madness when she became a Queen is fostered by her supposedly fallen enemies, who will use the gap of the Queen to take control of the power of the crown, and the magic it grants them, by force bypassing the judgement. Aaaand that's what I have so far. I mean I could say more but you get the picture.

And then there's the Lex Luthor argument: Have the changelings become so dependent on these spirits, that they've given up on taking care of themselves? Have changeling gotten to the point where they're just hopeless followers, with changelings like Chrysalis being among the few that are willing to act?

As I said 12 families rule the changeling Kingdom in the form of houses a political system to support the monarchy in times a King/Queen doesn't take the throne.

The changelings are capable true, but in the age of Chrysalis they carry a taint that pushes and drives the more... animalistic/feral side. As I said I haven't determined the cause in my mind yet, and in the changelings it is sorta unknown... but they have encountered anti-life/dark entities that have attempted to corrupt them. Think of it like Amon for the Zerg. The current ruler defended against that with their changelings but not all was fine after it.

So essentially while the Queen in this fic doesn't have full political power she might as well have because she is basically a step higher as a person than others. This might sound arrogant, but there are heroes that can achieve similar status and be blessed by said spirits even without the crown but on a lesser decree. Those are "exemplars" of the changeling nation.

4366438 M'kay. Sounds like you have this well-thought out then, which I would say is the important thing for stories of this sort. Too often I find myself stumbling while reading an otherwise good fic, because an author has backed themselves into corner by not covering certain things in their head. Not a presumption on you, as your stories are rather good, but it's a trap anyone can fall into. So I felt the need to ask the questions that came to my mind.

A complicated Chrysalis, one that has done good but slid into delusion and madness, seems like the right one for this story. I wouldn't have her immediately get the hint after being smote by the onslaught of psychic feelings from these spirits, but her realizing that she is wrong in some way would be easily justified. Even after it's clear that someone was wrong, it can still take time to comprehend it, and realize that their previous justifications were just excuses.. Give her time to realize exactly where and how she went wrong, and work through her delusions after this bag of psychic hammers upside the head. Granted that might have already been your plan from the beginning, but I only mention as it's the direction I would go. Regardless of whatever I might suggest, it is still your story to write as you choose, and your way can be better than anything I suggest.

EDIT: Something of my views that might be tinting things, is that redemption isn't easy. And, in fact, it can sometimes suck pretty hard, which is why so many like to think they don't need to look for redemption. The added benefit of making redemption difficult and time intensive, is that it would give a solid story arc too.

4366641

I wouldn't have her immediately get the hint after being smote by the onslaught of psychic feelings from these spirits, but her realizing that she is wrong in some way would be easily justified. Even after it's clear that someone was wrong, it can still take time to comprehend it, and realize that their previous justifications were just excuses.. Give her time to realize exactly where and how she went wrong, and work through her delusions after this bag of psychic hammers upside the head. Granted that might have already been your plan from the beginning, but I only mention as it's the direction I would go. Regardless of whatever I might suggest, it is still your story to write as you choose, and your way can be better than anything I suggest.

The judgement would be more like a ceremony. Equestrians would go against the changelings with an army but would see them almost all gathered to see the Queen's judgement gates open and no resistance. They would witness the judgement of the spirits that would look like kind of like the judgement of War in Darksiders only more... regal.

When Twilight opened her eyes, she was in the center of a giant gazebo-like structure. There were three paved roads coming from the edges of it, converging on the point Chrysalis and her were standing. Huge columns supported the structure, along with three changeling statues holding the roof with their horns. Each had an inscription on it.
The first statue depicted a bald, blindfolded changeling wearing a white toga. The bold form of the changeling, and his slightly bigger fangs, betrayed his male nature. He had a smaller set of wings below his normal ones like a moth, and held a folded scroll upon his left hoof. His inscription said “A healthy mind… - Nousios the Fair”.
Twilight had studied changeling history while she was with Chrysalis. Nousios was one of the three greatest kings of the changelings. In a time of deception, backstabbing, and civil war that plagued the changelings, Nousios was known for one thing: having his mind in the right place. Merely by watching a changeling he could tell a lot about them. Just like a detective formed a potential profile about his opponent, it also granted him the chance to pierce through lies, illusions, and such. With this ability he was able to shatter the opposition. He decided that as a backup to the monarch system there would be a chain of houses that would form each portion of the kingdom, twelve in total. With safety guaranteed even without succession, Nousios proceeded to make a cultural renaissance. Laws, education, medicine all flourished in an age of peace. It was not guaranteed that the changelings wouldn't squabble, but through this system it was ensured that hope would always shine through.
On his right, however, the changeling depicted seemed to have no holes or fangs to speak of. He had a semi-long, grey mane and beard. He wore gold and silver armor with a triangular red gem on the chestplate. On his back he had a dark blue cloak with golden trim. His hooves were placed upon a greatsword with its tip plunged on the base of the statue. Beneath his helmet his azure eyes were staring ahead. His inscription read “... within a healthy body… - Proteus the Overfather”.
To Twilight he looked exactly like the heroes of legend, from the novels Shining Armor used to read when he was younger, still aspiring to become a royal guard. While studying changeling history, Twilight learned that this was the first of the changelings to transform, but surprisingly he didn’t transform to other creatures. He could shift to stone, metals, water, air, fire, supposedly he could take the form of any material imaginable. He was said to have protected the changelings against the rampage of various forces like windigos, sirens, and others. However, the casualties were too high. The changelings, being a young race, had little defense. To aid them during the peak of his power, he scattered pieces of his body to the entirety of the changelings. His magic transferred to all changelings despite the fact that its overall effect had been lessened. Some of this history was myth to be sure, but the results were unquestionable, the actions of the ancient rulers or the changelings were still the same. Twilight knew all too well the romanticisation of history by biased historians.
One thing was sure by the form of this King: his was the time before the changelings fell, a time before their forms deteriorated to what they were now. As a testament to that the third statue was like a mix of what Proteus and Nousios looked like. The changeling that was depicted had small fangs, and a few holes upon her legs, but none in her mane or wings. She had a sun-golden mane and wore a white chiton with silver lining. There was a hidden smile behind her face and a sparkle in her soft sea green eyes. She bore the crown of the changelings, the same one that Chrysalis wore. Chrysalis had told Twilight that the crown adapted to the color scheme of the wearer, and on this changeling’s head it was silver with the gems on top being blood-red. Beneath her hooves the inscription read: “... and a heart in peace - Queen Metis the wisely cunning”.

Here is an example of what would exist in the entrance of it.

Think of it like the legendary Temple of Zeus with 3 statues like that.