Not Always Black and White 102 members · 123 stories
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Since more and more people are showing up to join the group, I figured I'd ask a question; what are some situations you think the ponies (Mane Six, princesses, normal ponies) would be hard pressed to figure out? Those that would force them to think outside of the standard principle they've set up that either something is entirely good or entirely bad?

Or even, do you believe they've run into one such problem already, but forced it into one of the two categories?

5927464 Well, there's the entirety of "A Canterlot Wedding" for a start.

5927494

Okay, could you please elaborate on this?

5927501 First of all, the episode just shoehorns in two characters she used to know, particularly her brother, and she never mentioned him once in the past 50 episodes when she could have. But to be fair, the justification for that is that the newlyweds were supposedly originally written as total strangers and the Mane 6 were asked by Celestia to help prepare this royal wedding as her most trusted subjects. However, rewriting it to have them be characters Twilight knows from her childhood I think made it worse because of the incoming stingers. Shining Armor literally betrays Twilight after she desperately tried to expose the bride as a fake because no one would take her seriously DESPITE knowing that Canterlot was being protected by a shield and KNOWING there was a threat. And because everyone was too pompous to think that the threat wasn't on the inside already, Twilight was left scarred and trapped, building up so much hate that her magic for the first time in the series is used as a weapon. Shining rejected her, her friends rejected her, and Celestia rejected her. Clearly, they all wanted to hurt her. Bad. And they were willing to stop being friends over this misunderstanding despite that "friendship is magic". Also, because everyone was too pompous to think that the threat wasn't on the inside already, Queen Chrysalis would have won in the end if it wasn't for the sheer dumb luck that Cadance and Shining's love spell saved the day. The episode sucked from beginning to end, it was too hard for me to watch, and for a kids' cartoon, I would not show this piece of crap to any kids I had one day because it makes no sense.

I'd say events in the episode left and right hit one extreme or the other. It's either "oh, you're just being a jealous numbskull, hahaha!" or "You're just trying to ruin the wedding! We don't want you anymore!" The episode would have been better and would have made more sense if the newlyweds stayed as total strangers and that Twilight never had a brother who just has to be the worst brother in the history of brothers. Shining Armor, rot in hell.

5927522

Ah yes. Shining Armor, Cadence, Starlight Glimmer and even Twilight Sparkle were all against the thought of a changeling being good. It's actually a little disturbing to me that they painted an entire species the same way because of their experiences with one queen. And hearing Shining say "There are no good changelings"?

I think it was one of those moments that made me realize that Equestria's ponies can be extremely narrow-minded and bias.

5927544 Also when I started losing respect for him

I'd say Celestia as a character is morally grey

5927464 But all tend to be but I'll send you guys what the TV tropes White and Grey morality page says on the situation.

Moments after the climax of the second episode, the goddess of darkness, who is effectively the Big Bad of the ponies' entire mythology, runs crying into a hug with her sister and counterpart day goddess. Who instantly forgives her.

Indeed, the worst villains in the first season were Gilda from "Griffon the Brush-Off" and the Great and Powerful Trixie from "Boast Busters", who were both realistic jerkasses rather than deliberately kid-friendly villains, neither of which learned their lessons in their respective episodes.

This changed with the season 2 premiere "The Return of Harmony", which featured as its antagonist Discord, a trouble-making Reality Warper with a cruel sense of humor.

Some of the show's conflicts even border on Good Versus Good, like the Dragon from Dragonshy, who was just trying to sleep until Dash kicked him in the face.

Averted by the phenomenally dark King Sombra, and Lord Tirek.

The episode "Bats!" from the same show sets up a conflict between Applejack and Fluttershy. Applejack is the grey morality, wanting to exterminate and/or drive off vampire fruit bats from her farm because it will destroy her crop and her livelihood. Fluttershy is the white morality, wanting to create a reserve on the farm for the fruit bats, arguing that the seeds the bats drop will eventually produce stronger, better apple trees. Applejack initially wins the argument, but events swing it back around to Fluttershy's side anyways.

5927464 And everyone already elaborated on "Times are a Changeling", and "A Canterlot Wedding". Which leads me to think that plenty of times Equestrian suffer of what I like to call. "Stupid Good".

5927671

"Stupid Good", eh? Concise way to put it and fairly accurate, I'm afraid to say.

5927682 Hey, that's a trope too.

5927642 TV Tropes is based on opinions, and biased opinions at that.

5927544 Shining Armor is still an unlikable jerk in my eyes, and the worst brother in the history of brothers.

5930497 I also agreed with you on A Canterlot Wedding. but the whole TVtropes is biased thing is just wrong. I'm a troper myself, and I can't really think of a better Pop-culture Wiki.

5930503

Indeed, the worst villains in the first season were Gilda from "Griffon the Brush-Off" and the Great and Powerful Trixie from "Boast Busters", who were both realistic jerkasses rather than deliberately kid-friendly villains, neither of which learned their lessons in their respective episodes.

Well, what's this, then? I don't think TV Tropes can prove that this was how the characters were meant to be written. I was told by someone else that Trixie as a start is technically an entertainer and it's like her job to maintain her personal pride and such. Her revenge on Twilight was practically earned, but the Alicorn Amulet was too much, yes. It's not a fact to say "realistic jerkasses". That is based on opinions. Now, if TV Tropes said something like "many fans consider Gilda and Trixie to be among the most unlikable villains in Season 1 because it was shown in the end of their respective episodes that they learned nothing", that would be more based on fact than opinions. To not be biased, TV Tropes would have to write up stuff as if the editing users are newscasters or any person who can address stuff in an unbiased manner. So if you're a troper and you think TV Tropes isn't biased, then learn to be unbiased and base your sources on fact instead of opinion, if you're not already.

5930506 Except I love Trixie, and Gilda, and I didn't write that. Hell I would french kiss Trixie in front of the Canterlot Guard, in broad daylight without any regrets.

I never even considered them villains, they are just average antagonists, that had their valid reasons to be jerks those days. And even then Trixie wasn't even a jerk, the Mane-Six where.

5930506 Also, I think that what they meant by realistic Jerkasses, was the fact that they were just ordinary folks instead of being demons, dark wizards or gods. :applejackunsure:

5930517 See what I mean, then? Since characters can be viewed in different ways, TV Tropes can't be considered unbiased if they judge said characters based on opinions. And because TV Tropes is seemingly biased, there will be those who disagree with what is written.

5930517

And even then Trixie wasn't even a jerk, the Mane-Six where.

Having just watched "Boast Busters" again, I disagree with you 100%. Leaving aside that Trixie was (and still is at times) pompous and self-centered, her counters to the Mane Six's shows of talent weren't even to one-up them, but to just humiliate them on stage. She's a pretty big jerk if you ask me... and as I say, she still has her moments. She's had some improvement from Season 6 onwards, but from seasons 1-5 I had no idea why the fandom loves her so much. I still don't, on some level.

5933398 You obviously don't go out much, or don't live in a large city, do you? I met people worse than her every day, hell I see them passing by me everyday on the street.

Also, have you ever worked for a living? To actually eat?

Alright, if you are a stage performer, you have to keep the show going and the audience entertained, a common tactic of comedians, and magicians is to make the hecklers in the audience part of the act, usually at their expense. Trixie in reality was being no more than jerk that you or me having to walk in the street, or having to deal with morning traffic. (I get flipped off, and I flip off at-least four people everyday.)

5933606

You obviously don't go out much, or don;t live in a large city, do you? I meat people worse than her every day, hell I see them passing by me everyday in the street.

That is completely irrelevant as far as ponies are concerned. Besides, the people you mentioned are jerks too, that doesn't make Trixie any better except in a comparative sense.

Also, have you ever worked for a living? To actually eat?

Trixie isn't a stage performer because she needs to eat, she does it because it's what she enjoys doing. Even with her reputation post-Boast Busters she still somehow had enough bits to buy a dangerous dark magical artifact.

Alright, if you are a stage performer, you have to keep the show going and the audience entertained, a common tactic of comedians, and magicians is to make the hecklers in the audience part of the act, usually at their expense.

Better, but that's an excuse, not a justification, and would only be a justification if she weren't like that off-stage as well. As for heckling, RD was the only one who really deserved what Trixie dished out. The others more or less were asking her to put her money where her mouth was... which she didn't do, any more than she actually vanquished an Ursa Major after claiming she had.

Which is why I'm unsympathetic to her fate post-Boast Busters, as it was a natural consequence of her own actions (or rather, words and inactions).

Trixie in reality was being no more than jerk that you or me having to walk in the street, or having to deal with morning traffic. (I get flipped off, and I flip off at-least four people everyday.)

I can't remember the last time someone flipped me off in traffic. Your experiences sound spectacularly worse than mine, but since the place I live is really nice despite being a city, I suspect my residence is more useful as a comparison to Ponyville than wherever you live. Although, again, comparing a pony to humans in a specific area doesn't have much of a point. Best to compare Trixie to other ponies. Or, do what I do and like or dislike her based on her traits.

5934356 Ah, but art imitates life Dusky. And to be fair, let's agree to disagree. Good? Good.

5934404 I still do not get while she's so popular, unless it's a side-effect of her bombastic ego making her interesting. Her force of personality certainly makes her memorable.

It should be noted that this varies by culture. In Japan, for instance, Trixie is rather less popular, her arrogance and eagerness to show off - highly negative traits in Japanese culture, so I gather - making her even more obnoxious.

5934412 It may have to do with the fact that she is a looser trying to follow impossible dreams, and plenty of wannabe artists and people with fake egos that use said egos as a mask that hides their self hatred from others.

While at the same time that mask makes them less likable that they would actually be if they didn't have such a low self worth of themselves.

If they did had more self worth they wouldn't have to create that fake persona in order to protect themselves from how utterly pathetic their lives are.

5934420 Well, that's... surprisingly believable actually, hmm.

I think a good moral grey situation would be something like this:

Have ponies be the bad guy in the situation and a species that Twilight and her friends associate as being "bad" be the victims. Like the Diamond Dogs or maybe even the Windigos. Of course they'll automatically think their own kind are the good guys in the conflict, bonus points if those ponies think so as well, and go to confront or try and drive out the "invading" species. It'd be a real slap of reality to find out that the ponies are the problem.

It'd be a good opportunity to show the Mane Six that ponies aren't as harmonious and innocent as they think they are.

5936207 I actually thought of an idea for a fic that was sort of like that, once... Twilight finds herself transported to another world, and turned into a wolf - which of course is the primary sapient species there. However, the wolves' folklore says that they were banished there by ponies - and that the seal between the worlds will soon weaken and then the wolves can return and take back what was theirs. So Twilight finds herself in the position of trying to prevent a war - whether by befriending the wolves or sabotaging them while they think she's one of them.

I never worked on it, in part to the idea getting shot down by the writers I consulted at the time...

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