Let's list all the atrocities committed by communist governments/movements. I'll start: Katyn Massacre.

5796005
But real communism has never never been tried before!

Kryisix said so!

5796017 Is that real or sarcastic?

5796017

Well, the Soviet Union was more of a fascist police state.

5796030 Stalin was never truly a Communist was he?

5796040 The Vinnytsia Massacre

5796030
*groans*

Do I really have to explain again that fascism involves a certain range of positions on various issues, and "police state" =/= "fascism"?

5796005 Occupation of Berlin

5796038 Depends on how you look at Communism.
Communism is a purely economic system. Bolshevism combines it with Fascist social policies.
So, technically, no. Stalin was not a true Communist.

5796051 Countless war rapes on the Eastern Front

5796055 Exactly

5796059 The forced deportations of ethnic groups such as Crimean Tatars and Volga Germans

5796050

If you would be so kind.

5796050 A police state is a state in which the ruling government exercises its authority via the police frce or a similar organization. An overbearing presence of civil authorities is a big part of this. A police state is usually a result of security logic or some belief in the necessity of a large ruling body.
Fascism necessitates a strong leader and ruling body. Totaliterianism is a core part of Fascism, and Totaliteriaism dictates that the state must control the people for reasons of security and to strike down "subversive" ideas. Alongside this, Totaliterianism seeks to control every aspect of a person's life.
A police state is a natural evolution of Fascism.

5796050

(I'm just going to respond to you in the other thread in this account. Switching them is getting to be a pain)

5796030
5796050
Before you two start, lemme grab the popcorn.

Carry on.

5796084

No need. Our conversations are surprisingly civil. If weren't on the Illegalize LGBT activity and the Women Shouldn't Vote side of things (seriously), I might actually like him.

>the citizen does _____ under threat of _____ for the greater good of the state
5796030

There really isn't a point in trying to say what's actually what when they both do the same thing.

Two gangs fighting for the same patch of turf looking to sell the same product.

Or rather have someone make it for them.

5796102 So, what you're saying is that Stalin's being either a Fascist or Communist is irrelevent, because they both result in the same thing?
I'm actually confused.

5796100 Interesting.

5796118

Glorification of the state.

A fuck ton of people will die, due to the failures of a retarded system or because they refuse to cooperate.

If you strip everything else away, those are the bare bones and what you're left with.

5796138 I see.
I disagree, though. Stalin's motivations are something we need to understand, so we can prevent something like that Glorious Mustache from ever happening again.

5796193 Communism's social changes are derrived from its economic policy. In Communist theory, the collective ownership of the means of production leads to a classless society and all the >insert utopian equality nouns<. The economic element (controlling the mop) is the base for everything else.

5796178 Mighty USSR was Fascist before it was cool.

5796242 Socio-economic ideology. That it is.
I mis-typed, and I was having to jot my thoughts down quickly since I was playing Overwatch

5796071
Okay, here we go (again). I'll tag 5796077 for this, too.

Fascism is built on four key principles.

1: A rejection of individualism, and an embracing of a greater good.
This is the biggest similarity fascism has with communism, though there's still a big difference - communism's greater good is always establishing a certain standard of living for everyone, while there are a variety of greater goods that have formed the backbones of different fascist movements. The most common of those is not race, as many people who are only acquainted with the National Socialist German Workers' Party believe, but religion - the Spanish Falange and the Belgian Rexist Party held the advancement of the Catholic Church as their greater good, while the Romanian Legion of the Archangel Michael (more commonly known as the Iron Guard) was dedicated to Orthodox Christianity. Of course, other greater goods also work, so long as there's a focus on uniting the people to achieve a goal that is worth any personal sacrifice.

2: Nationalism.
There is always an emphasis on implementing that greater good on the national scale, instead of the international one. This can be for one of two reasons: either the nation being the greater good, or a sense of pragmatism - it's simply viewed as too difficult to implement the greater good on a larger scale.

3: A rejection of both socialism and capitalism.
Fascism rejects total socialism as unrealistic, while also decrying the rampant self-interest inherent in unrestrained capitalism. One of the most left-leaning groups when it came to economics was the Legion of the Archangel Michael, which wanted to establish a complete command economy due to their fanatical religiousness leading them to reject all forms of materialism. In contrast, the Falange, while striving for Spanish self-sufficiency in its early years, was otherwise mostly capitalist, with restrictions mostly in place to ensure resources stayed within the country instead of to implement any form of wealth redistribution. Most fascist groups, like the Italian National Fascist Party and the misleadingly-named National Socialists, advocated for corporatism, in which all companies and industries were heavily regulated to serve the interests of the state, while still permitting private ownership.

4: Authoritarianism.
All fascist movements involve a belief that a strong government is necessary to protect the national populace and purge subversive elements - primarily communists and anarchists, with varying degrees of oppression directed at other groups. While Hitler famously purged his political opponents in the Night of the Long Knives, the Falange and the Rexist Party were more broad coalitions dominated by fascist thought than anything else, and they tolerated most right-wing thought.

So let's look at Stalinism.

1: Collectivism: ✓
Obviously.

2: Nationalism: X
Stalin famously advocated for "Socialism in One Country," though the conglomerate nature of the Soviet Union throws ideas of nationalism into severe doubt. Here, it's important to distinguish between a "country" and a "nation." A country is an area with clear borders, a permanent population, a government controlling it, and complete sovereignty. A nation is a group of people with a shared culture, and it isn't necessarily a country - a nation that is also a country is called a nation-state. France is a nation-state, but the USSR was just a country.

3: Neither socialist nor capitalist: ✓
Stalinist economic policy was (allegedly, at least) intended as a transition from capitalism to communism. Functionally, though, it was a command economy, which falls into the fringes of fascist thought, so I'll give it this one, with some minor trepidation and a note that Stalinist economic policy is hardly in the fascist mainstream.

4: Authoritarianism: ✓
Obviously.

So it hits three of the four points, but the lack of an appeal to a shared culture is enough to make it not quite fascist.

5796270

since I was playing Overwatch

Gas.

5796005 No CIA installed government has ever done anything of the sort.

5796506 Making excuses

5796506 Which kind? I prefer Zyklon B myself.

5796424 I disagree with Pink-Storm's assertion that Stalin was Fascist, but he was indisputably Totaliterian.

5796547
Oh, he most certainly was. I included you in this because your comment here - 5796077 - specifically:

A police state is a natural evolution of Fascism.

Seemed to imply that you think that fascism is required for a police state, which it is not.

5796571 It's not required. A Fascist system will not automatically create a police state, but many police states are Fascist or Totaliterian in some manner.
What I was trying to say is that Fascism has an extreme tendancy to create police states, and that you saying this:

"police state" =/= "fascism"

-is not untrue, but does seem to disregard the tendancy of Fascist states to produce police states.

5796575
What I was saying with that was that a police state does not automatically mean fascism, which is a misconception that an infuriatingly high number of people have.

5796512 You're falsely attributing democide to communism.

5796622 Of course, Fascism doesn't automatically produce a police state, nor does a police state always come from a Fascist system. There is just a strikingly high tendancy for Fascism to do so (using history as a guide).

5796623 No, I am just talking about communism in particular here

5796640 How convenient.

I trust you'll be posting the same question about right leaning governments soon?

5796623 The Katyn Massacre was done by the Soviets. He's attributing that massacre to the Soviets (well, "Communists", but the two are almost synonimous at this point, and the system of government the Soviets acted under was Communist).

5796645 That was the "start" by asking specifically about the democides done by communists there is some implication that democide is a quintessentially communist thing.

5796655 I am specifically talking about communist governments/movements here. That is it.

5796677 So there will be a thread about rightest governments in the future?

5796680 Why are you so worried about that?

5796655 As far as I could see, he asked for examples of Communist atrocities and listed the Katyn Massacre. You then pointed out that several CIA-installed governments had done similar things. He then pointed out (in a lacking manner) that it seemed as though you were making excuses for Communist atrocities via the whole "X has done just as bad as Y, therfore Y is not as bad" angle. You then implied that he was saying that democide was a strictly-Communist action.

5796005
Stalins purges of the '30s as well as the forced collectivisation and subsequent famine in the Ukraine.

5796694 The Holodomor

5796697
Would lack of Soviet action count? Like the Battle of Warsaw in '44 where the Soviet Army sat just outside as the German army moved in to crush the rebellion?

5796685 I dunno it just seems like there's an implication here, with no implication else where.

5796731 You can start a thread yourself

5796708
No, If it did then so would the Western Allies reluctance to invade Europe when Stalin requested their support.

5796005 order 227.