What is the link in your view between faith and blood? Do you honor the Gods of your blood? What is your obligation, you feel, to your people? What of the stranger? Should he be welcomed or shunned and if welcomed, what are the conditions of that welcome? Do you honor your ancestors? Is your link to your Gods through your bloodline? Are you, for example, kin to Odin or, like myself, did your people spring from Bile, the Divine Oak who sprang from the union of Mother Danu and Father Dagda? (Earth and Sky?) Are you Venus's child, an heir to Rome?

7108785

What of the stranger? Should he be welcomed or shunned and if welcomed, what are the conditions of that welcome?

I mean, what would I have against religious converts?

7108789
I meant immigrants.

But good question, some religions forbid conversion.

(For the record, I welcome immigrants who abide by the law and values of their host country.)

7108785
I mean, my family is Filipino, but I don't know which part of the ancient, often animistic, though there is a pantheon, my blood would trace to. Plus we've been Catholic for God knows how long

7108797
I don't see why a religion would forbid immigration, since most nations are not religious states or controlled by their majority faith institution. As far as I know, many faiths have certain requirements for converts to how their faith, usually involving participation in a local establishment, confirming with officials there, and taking on a religious name (either in place of their legal name or for religious activity exclusively). I don't know of any that explicitly forbid conversion, which I imagine would be particularly tricky when you might belong to a faith that doesn't have any set authority who decides who stays in the faith and what branch, etc.

For example, I know that the Pope could still give the holy boot and kick certain people out of the Church officially, or welcome someone back in. If a world leader who was Catholic suddenly decided to do something greatly against the Church, the patterns of communication for Pope Francis to denounce their actions and exclude them from the Church are fairly clear, or can be researched more easily. I think with faiths that don't have that set kind of institution, it would be hard to kick someone out of particular circles.

Immigrants are more of a secular and socio-cultural matter (or even a legal one) than an inherently religious one. I don't see why they would be condemned for their status alone when so many religions teach values of charity or hospitality. Plus, historically immigrants are very valuable in bringing traditions with them and spreading religions. Yes, even if those means aren't always peaceful (lookin' at you, Crusades).

I think converts are more key to the question than immigrants.

7108800
Is there a particularly "Filipino" brand of Catholicism? Particularly honored saints?

7108806
Not that I know, unlike say, Japan, Catholicism is pretty standard in PH. Well, there IS the feast of the Black Nazarene. Basically, IMS, a ship caught on fire ages ago, They recovered a statue of Jesus bearing his cross. It was fine, save the skin seemingly darkened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Nazarene

7108805
Zoroastrianism has no converts.

7108812
I had no idea about that. I'm surprised this particular faith is as big as it appears. I know that that the Harmony Society, a Christian sect was somewhat similar, though not quite. Their religious lifestyle was essentially celibate/asexual, so they adopted everyone into it but never were able to multiply. It's an interesting inversion.

I do remember reading that not accepting people outside the faith depending on how it is done is often a key sign that you might not be in a religion, but a cult. It goes along with many BITE model principles of isolation and control.

7108815
Many religions are linked to blood-Judaism, Shinto, Hinduism to an extent, Native American religions. These religious traditions are believed to have been given to a particular people specifically for their use so they may resent strangers encroaching on it. They may go so far as to claim descent from a particular deity. In Judaism, history is indistinguishable from revelation and Native Americans occasionally exclude outsiders from certain ceremonies. The idea is of a sort of covenant between the people and the Deity or even ancestral connection.

7108818
This is true, though in the case of many native peoples of the Americas, adoption was also a common practice. Questions of religions and ancestors just don't seem to hold up well unless you come from a particular tradition that traces that. My bloodline is very muddled, so what should I base it off of? The ethnic group I'm made up of the most and an eighth-or-so generation of? The most popular one in my family? The country where I live? In that case, I'm not really doing either. I'm not really connected to either side of my family, or any heritage traditions. Everyone in my main family unit is a different religion, too. Also, am I supposed to use my bloodlines and religion to override my citizenship in what I consider myself?

All this feels quite murky. Especially since I might not even fight into the traditional roles of any religion I participate in doing to a particular question.

How would you answer these questions, from your own perspective? Do you really feel connected to ancestors you have that could be from another side of the world, or another country from hundreds of years ago? Do you follow popular traditions in your region?

7108823
I'm Irish with some Scottish and a bit o' English. My ancestors prayed to the same pantheon. There is, not but a walk from my home, a tree which has been venerated for generations as the home of faeries. My land and blood form the context of my faith. Christianity was only ever a thin veneer anyway. St. Brigid is the Goddess of sun and fire and poetry, given a new name.

Walk in the landscape. What do you feel? Do any features stand out to you? Do you feel them calling you? Do you have any connection to peoples you admire?

There are Gods to be considered as well. Have you felt drawn to a particular deity? Might be a God of your blood-even a tangential connection. Of course, when the Gods come knocking it's undeniable.

7108823

“My bloodline is very muddled, so what should I base it off of? The ethnic group I'm made up of the most and an eighth-or-so generation of?”

If it were just that, I'd say this:

Sounds like you have some foreign blood. Some blood from a people other then your own. So what? If you're Russian, for example: Don't fret about your non-Russsian blood. Just be Russian. Be true to Russia. And perhaps follow the Gods of Russia, the Slavic Gods.

That would be my advice, but you said this too:

“The country where I live? In that case, I'm not really doing either. I'm not really connected to either side of my family, or any heritage traditions. Everyone in my main family unit is a different religion, too. Also, am I supposed to use my bloodlines and religion to override my citizenship in what I consider myself?”

Sounds like this might be more complicated, then just you having some foreign blood.

7108830

Walk in the landscape. What do you feel? Do any features stand out to you? Do you feel them calling you? Do you have any connection to peoples you admire?

I've always harbored a deep love of Neo-Paganism that I never got to fully foster, and aim to now that I've entered adulthood. However, I'm not in any particularly wonderful natural area, nor am I in any particular religious hub in terms of what I've felt some kinship with, if that makes sense. Based on what I'm seeing, you are European, yes? I'm American, and in the Northeast. It's kind of blasé and one-note here in terms of what I'm exposed to, for the most part. My home city is... eh, a real piece of work. In terms of the natural world, I do sometimes live in areas important to many native tribes, and while I have the utmost respect for aboriginal peoples, it's not the same kind of paganism.

I have a lot of respect for more accepting, scholarly sects of Catholicism too, but no kinship. I just respect the tradition, history, and more positive values and practices compared to some more wishy-washy examples. It's also just the most understandable (from my opinion) to see once you read some of the texts.

There are Gods to be considered as well. Have you felt drawn to a particular deity? Might be a God of your blood-even a tangential connection. Of course, when the Gods come knocking it's undeniable.

See the remark about easing myself into paganism more with adulthood. Wiccan and Heathen/Nordic faiths are where I feel the most drawn, but I'm still trying to work on shaping myself to be a less doubtful person and get some texts to meditate on and really explore. I've had the misfortune of never really having any knocking or particular draw to any deity.
7108836

Sounds like you have some foreign blood. Some blood from a people other then your own. So what? If you're Russian, for example: Don't fret about your non-Russsian blood. Just be Russian. Be true to Russia. And perhaps follow the Gods of Russia, the Slavic Gods.

I'm American, I was raised with a thin Christian veneer, mostly just because of culture. Most of my blood is German. There's also Polish, Jewish/Israeli, Armenian, and some rumored Irish and native roots. It's rather unverified entirely because there's some gaps in the tree and I've never gotten my DNA tested, so the Irish and Native American is unknown. My mother could probably be considered biracial, and since she's no distant relative, this means I could effectively be considered somewhat Middle Eastern as a result, depending on how you see Armenians. I don't have 'blood from a people other than my own' I'm a muddled ol' mutt. And a filthy Yankee.

Sounds like this might be more complicated, then just you having some foreign blood.

My family is of mixed faiths and groups. They're predominantly Christian, but if I extend the scope a bit: there's Protestants Christians, Armenian Christians, an atheist, Jewish family, and then me. I am not Christian or Jewish, but easing myself into the paganism I was always drawn to.

7108848
Hm. I think I have some thoughts and advice there, or at least some thoughts. But I’ll have to get back to you tomorrow: I need sleep.

7108867
Go get that sleep, then.

7108848
First of all: You said that most of your blood is German. You sure about that?

It's true that in the 19^th and early 20^th centuries: America got a massive wave of immigration from Europe. But those Europeans (and their decedents) intermarried with each-other, and with the Americans. For you to have mostly German blood: Your German ancestors would have had to marry mostly other Germans, up to the time of your conception. That seems unlikely.

Your family may call itself “German”. But it seems more likely that your blood is a mix of German and American. That your German ancestors intermarried with the Americans.

7108848
Exploration is fun. Everyone starts at the beginning.

7109028
Yes, they lived in a community founded by other German immigrants and populated almost entirely by other Germans. That's also the side of my family that tended to keep more records of marriages, so they do know that everyone was mostly German. This is to the point where it could probably be said that close to half my ancestry is German.

7109071
Interesting. But here's my advice: Read President T. Roosevelt's “No Room in This Country for Hyphenated-Americans" speech. And read this post I made in another thread. Then ask yourself if you're an American.

If the answer to that question is “yes”: Don't fret about your non-American blood. Don't fret, even if you have no American blood. Just be American. Be true to America. And honor your American heritage.

7109078

Then ask yourself if you're an American.

If the answer to that question is “yes”: Don't fret about your non-American blood. Don't fret, even if you have no American blood. Just be American. Be true to America. And honor your American heritage.

This is fairly easy, seeing that being a citizen of the States is all that's needed to make me American, and the same goes for millions of other people. Melting-pot sentiments and all that. I don't do anything "true to America" or its heritage, though, nor have I felt any compulsion to. What would that consist of? Trying to pick one set of choices to represent being an "American way" doesn't particularly work when talking about heritage specifically.

7109084
No. American Citizenship is a piece of paper! And one that's been handed out like candy. Actuality being American takes more then a piece of paper. If I somehow got a piece of paper saying that I was Cherokee, or German, or Zulu: That wouldn't magically make me Cherokee, or German, or Zulu.

Perhaps more to the point: I feel like you're denying America has a heritage. That you deny there is any such thing as the American people, beyond the legal requirements for being an American citizen. Why? You wouldn't deny the existence of the German people, or the Zulu people, would you?

7109091

I feel like you're denying America has a heritage. That you deny there is any such thing as the American people, beyond the legal requirements for being an American citizen. Why? You wouldn't deny the existence of the German people, or the Zulu people, would you?

Not at all, it's just that pretty much everyone has had a hand in America and its making. Many generations of immigrants and native peoples helped shaped the culture here, some more so than others at different times. In many ways, I'm not more or less American than most people living in this country.

7108785

Personally I put zero value on ancestry and lineage. I'd totally swear my loyalty to any god that bothered to show up even if I have no blood ties to them. Sadly not one single god has ever showed up.

7109094
I disagree. Those European immigrants who came here in the 19^th and early 20^th centuries: They did not make America, America was already made!

7109100
They were very vital in contributing to American culture, and if that's not making America, what is?

7109101
I won't deny that those 19^th century Europeans, along with the later waves of immigrants, affected America. That they affected American culture.

But so what? We already had a culture, a history, and a heritage. Should we just throw that away, and replace it with the culture and heritage of those immigrants?

7109105
Every wave of immigrants has transformed the general American culture. The cultures of specific groups isn't always impacted by that, as there's still lots of heritage evident. But to say that other groups - many Asian immigrants, Chicano culture, or Scandinavian immigrants in the early 19th century, for example - had no impact on how American culture has grown is very silly because they add to that heritage and history.

7109107
Not sure what your point is. As I said: I won't deny that the immigrants affected American culture.

But I feel like you're denying that America has any culture and heritage of her own, beyond what we got from immigrants and foreigners. That you want to wash away anything of America, that didn't come from an immigrant.

7109123

That you want to wash away anything of America, that didn't come from an immigrant.

...Not at all? It's just that everyone in America, including the original colonists, were all immigrants. 'Washing that away' would just be talking about the native peoples. Everyone else that followed is some kind of immigrant.

7109136
Even the Indians were “immigrants”, they came from Siberia. Go back far enough, and all humanity came from Africa (if the Out-of-Africa theory is to be believed).

7109145

Even the Indians were “immigrants”, they came from Siberia. Go back far enough, and all humanity came from Africa (if the Out-of-Africa theory is to be believed).

Oh, of course. I'ts just that the first people to reside in an area are usually deemed the native ones, in the case that there's none who always lived there. Native Americans were the first peoples to live in the Americas, making them the only ones who can really be called 'native'.

7109154

7109145
The American situation is certainly a unique one. Most countries do have a dominant ethnic group influencing the main culture or cultures that are so similar as to be variations on a theme. Does anyone know of any American folk religion linked to Earth traditions? (Say, revering certain aspects of the landscape?)

7109228
Indeed! It's fun to read about, for one.

7109154
There’s a problem with simply giving the title of “native”/“indigenous”, to the first people who reside in the area: By that measure, the Native Europeans are the Neanderthals!

Humans have been around for a long time. Not many lands are still inhabited, by the first people who lived there.

7109257

By that measure, the Native Europeans are the Neanderthals!

They are extinct. Never have I heard 'native people' given to non-homo sapiens. That seems like misplaced credit to the point of error. Native Europeans would be those who still have any close blood connections to the first peoples in the area, which would generally come down to ethnic groups, particularly for larger areas like modern-day Russia.

7109267
The Neanderthals were people, like you and me. The reason they're not classified as “homo sapiens”, is that they're extinct. If they were still around: Biologists wouldn't dare classify an existing race as a separate species!

More to the point: Everybody's stolen land from everybody else, and most lands have been inhabited for a very long time. How can you know who the original inhabits were, and who's most closely related to them?

7109491

The Neanderthals were people, like you and me. The reason they're not classified as “homo sapiens”, is that they're extinct. If they were still around: Biologists wouldn't dare classify an existing race as a separate species!

That's not the only reason they were classified differently. Extinction doesn't get an organism classified differently, being a different species does, hence the different species name.

More to the point: Everybody's stolen land from everybody else, and most lands have been inhabited for a very long time. How can you know who the original inhabits were, and who's most closely related to them?

This is a major part of anthropology and DNA testing, which has been able to find the closest living relatives to many tribes that were previously thought of as extinct. So, yes, while all land is stolen land, people leave their mark where they live. You can find the original inhabitants by testing remains with the modern inhabitants, and through other methods. It's incredibly interesting to read about.

7109730
Say we discovered that there were people in America before the Indians. And say those people were closely related to Europeans. Should we then start calling Europeans and White Americans “Native Americans”?

7109749
That would depend on if that were plausible. The only people who were white that made it to the Americas before the take off the Age of Exploration were Vikings (who noted that there were people already here) and possibly Saint Brendan the Navigator.

If that were the case, the only people that would probably get that label would be those most closely related to the hypothetical people. If those people happened to to be most closely related to the Irish, then Irish people would likely be able to take that claim. It'd certainly be tricky, and depend entirely on a situation like that actually happening.

7109773
I think it's simple: The Indians are the indigenous people of the New World. And maybe stone-age Europeans were in America over ten thousand years ago. Even so, it'd be ridiculous to seriously call the Irish “Native Americans”. More ridiculous then calling Neanderthals the indigenous people of Europe.

For the term “indigenous people” to be useful and practical: We can't deprive indigenous people of that title, because of something that happened ten-thousand years ago.

7109773
From our conversation, especially your earlier posts in it: I get the impression that you feel lost, when it comes to heritage and all. That you don't feel much connection to any heritage.

Am I right? And do you want a heritage, do you wish you had that connection?

7110902

I get the impression that you feel lost, when it comes to heritage and all. That you don't feel much connection to any heritage.

I don't think that "lost" is the right word, but I've never had any heritage or cultural connection to much. It's likely due to modern America being more of culture of everything, since I usually see the talk of having a people in cultures that put more value in ancestors and other, similar traditions. Many East Asian, Hispanic, and European cultures come to mind for that comparison. But, no, I don't feel "lost" is the word.

7110907
Interesting. Would you say that you're patriotic, that you love America and all?

7111186
Maybe a little? I’d like to see it improve some more first, seeing as it’s been in a difficult spot.

7111332
Honestly: I don’t think “a little, on the condition that it improves” really counts.

7111336
I mean, seeing something be the best it can be is understandable. I would just give up on my country and think it’s a lost cause if I didn’t care for it at all.

7111342
I love America, I am an American. And I don’t just mean that I live within the borders of the United States, and meet the legal requirements for citizenship. I mean that I am part of an ethnicity, a tribe, a race, a people, whatever terminology you want to use. I am an American! The same way a Zulu is a Zulu, a German is a German, etc.

But I hate what America’s done with herself. I hate the choices she’s made, and she direction she’s gone in. My love for America isn't a little, on the condition that she gets better. My love for America is why I’m trying to help her get better! My love is why I want America to be the best she can be.

7111359
Of course, and that’s a similar way to look at things. It’s hardly wrong to think that way.

7109228
I think you would be looking into aboriginal traditions for that kind of reverence. A lot of old farming and certain pioneer cultures had a very idealized and worshipful view of nature too. It partially influenced American cryptids (of all things) in some ways.