3307533

You're the traitors! Abandoning all of our culture to sell out to the westerners!

3307536 What? No! You're the traitor! We were sworn to defend the Emperor! You doom Japan to stagnation without the Emperor!

3307536 3307537 Combine the greatness of both. Modern to support the old. Both can rule peacefully.

3307540 No they can't. That's why FoTS happened in the first place.

3307541 you can still build a traditional army with the Emperor's forces.

3307540 3307541

Well... it's what you're supposed to do in the game...

Too much modernization and you get no happiness and many rebellions. Too little and your economy takes a shit and armies will suffer.

You've got to find a way to have both.

Plus: The Emperor endangered all of Japan getting involved with the foreign powers and cause this in the first place. It is shows that he cannot lead properly and should be removed.

3307544 That's hideous and incredibly ineffective against the modern weaponry of all the other clans. Not even shogunate clans use traditional armies.

3307549 See? Traitor!

3307549 but don't forget, the Shogun did lose his peoples trust somewhat. Both would've let the country down eventually. And western powers did have better weapons. But they had trouble in close combat.

3307552 look very closely at some of their armies. I fought against traditional armies and they gave me a hard time. There are times modern will not win.

3307552

The shogun must protect the people of Japan and the emperor caused this pain for them.

Who is the real enemy there?

3307557

...The shoguns never really did. The emperors are there to just... well be there really.

There have been nearly hundreds of times where if people didn't like a shogun things were changed. The only one that went mad fucking haywire was the Genpei war and Sengoku Jidai and both lead to hundreds of years of peace in Japan because of the shoguns.

3307565 Japan has had some Shoguns that were not that great. The one during the Imjin Wars was one of them. I think it was Tokogawa?

3307559 Lies. I just call in a naval bombardment and line up my ultra experienced Imperial infantry. Silly samurais (if any) die by the dozens.

3307565 The Shogun, of course! The Empire 5ever! Besides, modern weaponry.

3307530
So basically their the infantry equivalent to Yoemen in Medieval?

3307569 they could be hiding. And there are times you can't use a naval bombardment. And their archers out range you.

3307568

Oh, the invasions of Korea which all of Japan agreed with and were all for? In which Japan had like a K/D of almost 5?

3307569

Oh, look at that, advanced tactics beat a modernized army!

3307573 Archers don't matter when I've got cannons bombarding the entire place. I just need to sit back and relax while the artillery does its job.

3307576 *smack* Don't be silly! I never said it wasn't possible. I love crushing modern armies with samurais, it's my favorite hobby, but I'm saying it doesn't happen to me. And that's multiplayer when it happens, or the player controlling the samurais. We all know Creative Assembly is incapable of making an AI that uses tactics superior to a potato.

3307576 Japan was doing good until Admiral Yi arrived with his ships. And China arrived to help Korea. Japan was fighting 2:1 odds but kept it up. All sides fought bravely.

3307580 limited ammo, and like I said, they can hide.

3307580

So... what you just said means you conceded to what I said earlier?

That a modernized army doesn't mean a default win?

3307582

Chinese help actually didn't help too much...

They got their asses handed to them and they did more damage to the land than the Japanese were doing...

The just won it with fleets due to Japan not having a really good navy but when you really look at it... Japan won that war...

3307589 Japan eventually did get Korea, but it took almost 400 years. Right now, I really want to tell Japan they can have North Korea.

3307584 Archers have limited ammo too, and cannons have larger range. A player really has to be incredibly shitty to lose a battle against the AI while wielding cannons and a well-sized modern army, all the while the best thing the AI can put forth are archers.

What good does it make them to be able to hide anyway? The moment they fire they're fucked, because my artillery will fuck them up in an instant.

3307586 But I'm not conceding because your counter-argument was wrongly aimed. My whole point has been that a modern army will always beat the shit out of a traditional army under the command of the AI. You just haven't followed the argument well.

3307580
3307582
3307586
It was modernize or end up like China; a fat, bloated, backwards, opium addicted mess. YOu play the game in the modern day or you find yourself in for a miserable future so...

FOR THE EMPRAH!

3307599 FOR TEH EMPRAH!

3307594 you really want to take a chance and hit your own men? What kind of general are you?

3307594 fight against a player. No cannons and see how well you do.

3307594

The Shogun, of course! The Empire 5ever! Besides, modern weaponry.

Oh, look at that, advanced tactics beat a modernized army!

*smack* Don't be silly! I never said it wasn't possible. I love crushing modern armies with samurais, it's my favorite hobby, but I'm saying it doesn't happen to me. And that's multiplayer when it happens, or the player controlling the samurais. We all know Creative Assembly is incapable of making an AI that uses tactics superior to a potato.

So... what you just said means you conceded to what I said earlier?
That a modernized army doesn't mean a default win?

That was the entire argument on that point... who followed the argument better? You didn't even mention the AI ONCE until the last point where you pretty much conceded...

3307603 Now you're just tossing random things at me. Anyway, I'll play along. They're miniature figurines inside a monitor. I really couldn't care less what happens to them.

3307604 I've already done so. I kicked ass. Of course, it depends on my opponent.

3307606 Yeah, I never mentioned the AI, but I never said Modern won every time, did I? You're quoting the wrong argument too. I'm talking about the argument against this guy up here ^.

What I said there

Besides, modern weaponry.

simply means I prefer modern weapons. I never said they were unbeatable. You're twisting my words.

3307610 never going to have you lead any soldiers in real life.

3307610

Oh Galley...

Yeah, I never mentioned the AI, but I never said Modern won every time, did I?

You:

That's hideous and incredibly ineffective against the modern weaponry of all the other clans. Not even shogunate clans use traditional armies.

Him:

look very closely at some of their armies. I fought against traditional armies and they gave me a hard time. There are times modern will not win.

You:

Lies. I just call in a naval bombardment and line up my ultra experienced Imperial infantry. Silly samurais (if any) die by the dozens.

Me:

Oh, look at that, advanced tactics beat a modernized army!

You:

*smack* Don't be silly! I never said it wasn't possible.

Really?
You:

That's hideous and incredibly ineffective against the modern weaponry of all the other clans. Not even shogunate clans use traditional armies.

Lies. I just call in a naval bombardment and line up my ultra experienced Imperial infantry. Silly samurais (if any) die by the dozens.

You implied that they were unbeatable, smart one and that lead to this entire thing in the first place.

I didn't twist anything...

3307629 One thing I should mention, I got beat by a traditional army, using modern troops that I have at the beginning and naval bombardment. We both had levy's and I still lost despite having guns and naval support.

3307629 Okay. Let's do this.

That's hideous and incredibly ineffective against the modern weaponry of all the other clans. Not even shogunate clans use traditional armies.

1st sentence: It is ineffective to use as the player against other clans, because you'll lose more men, spend more coin, and take longer to overcome them. Perhaps the wording wasn't the best and 'cost-effective' would have been better, but what I meant is still obvious.

Lies. I just call in a naval bombardment and line up my ultra experienced Imperial infantry. Silly samurais (if any) die by the dozens.

This is what I would do to destroy a shogunate army. Pay attention to this

Silly samurais (if any)

It means against AI shogunate armies, because they rarely use samurai units.

I never said Modern won every time against traditional. I never implied it, what I did imply was that AI modern vs Player 100% traditional in a campaign would be very inefficient when trying to conquer all of Japan.

I cannot concede to an argument that never existed.

3307615 That's nice. I like peanut butter, by the way.

3307652

Haha, never existed...

It would have been much more clearer if you, oh, I don't know... talked about the context of how these armies were being used? That way it doesn't leave room for it to seem like you were talking about them always winning?

The more detail that is provided means it tends to leave less to be interperated wrongly...

Just some advice...

3307659 And so we reach the end of this, with Classy trying to save face.

Yo, if your PC can run the multiplayer campaign, wanna play?

3307665

Me? Saving face? No... just trying to make sure this stupid argument doesn't happen again...

Not right now. Next Friday I'll have all of my classes done.

We can make plans if you so please...

3307671 Same here, actually. I'll contact you in six and a chunk days from now.

3307687

Alright.

3307671 3307687 If you two have YouTube channels, I'd like to watch and see who gets beat.

3307692

Well... I have one, but I don't uplode videos... or do much of anythign on it for that matter...

Plus, my laptop will just get wrecked if I try to record anything while playing...

3307698 understood. can't get Rome 2 because of my laptop.

3307714

Can't get Rome 2 because of taste for good games... lel

3307719 Laptop can't handle it, and my desktop is not internet capable at the moment. I'm a big Total War fan, but the highest I have in the series in Napoleon.

in medieval 2 i play as Byzantium

in shogun i play the Date the true SHOGUN!

3307537 You DARE call my daimyo a TRAITOR TO OUR PEOPLE!? Giving up all the culture values and traditions that we have practiced for HUNDREDS of years, all for weapons that kill without honor!? The only traitor i here see is you!

3306907
Deustchland Uber Alles Bruden! Prussia shall reign supreme!

That and the US from Empire. Those are the only two I've played, though I've been looking at Shogun 2, and the Date look promising.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

3306907
I don't have Total war

3321902 A Friend of mine and I were playing for the Emperor, but we were not afraid to go in for a melee charge. He would use the traditional armies, while I would fire at them for a while, before charging. Lose many brave soldiers, but we win. I remember the first fight, we charged the walls of a castle, and my one line infantry unit lost a good number of it's men.

3321956
I would love to play that mode but its in three or four separate down load parts and takes a whole weekend to down load. Not cool