...or rather I'm sick of G&C constantly throwing the term around like it was the single greatest conceivable sin an author can make, but you know what... FINE!

He wins, I'm through trying to explain to him or anyone else the difference. If G&C wants to believe that the Lunaverse is guilty of PCM, that's his choice to make. However, RDD likes it the way it is, Fizzy likes it the way it is, and I like it the way it is, but none of us get to enjoy it because we are constantly trying to bend over backwards to accommodate overly judgmental views. It is NEVER the job of the author to conform to the expectations of their fans, and we aren't obliged to change anything just to make our critics happy. It's impossible to please everyone, and trying always only results in pleasing no one.

Anyone who doesn't like the kinds of stories we're telling here is free to leave and go find other stories that are more suitable to their interests and tastes.

3156739 I KNOW! Why is everything SO complicated the moment we bring in villains? Either we don't punish them enough or we punish them too much! It's friggin annoying!

I say we come up with a plan and stick to it! If RDD wants to kill Solrath through reincarnation I say we go for it!

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Hmm...completely unrelated note, I didn't get a notification for this thread going up. Only just now learning of it. I'm going to assume G&C2 didn't notice it either. That's actually been a problem for me recently, too, I didn't notice a few that went up in the Lunaverse forum over the past month or so.

Wonder why...

Anyway. I...just don't get into these arguments anymore, or I try not to. They only lead to tears. If people want to consider it PCM, fine, whatever. I write according to some ephemeral rules born from years of Saturday morning cartoons and Disney. I don't quite know what makes me want to redeem one villain, kill another, and maroon a third. I don't think those kinds of deep thoughts, I just write the story I want to write and, thenceforward, hope it passes Quorum of Canon judgment.

On the specific subject at hand, I hadn't considered what I was doing to Solrath "death," per se, hence why I didn't list him amongst those I intended to kill. But I can understand how it could be reasonably interpreted as such, so we'll just add him to my Lunaverse hit list.

So that brings me up to Antithesis, Grogar, Bray, a bunch of ancient Tambelon ponies, and Solrathicharnon.

3167459

That's actually been a problem for me recently, too, I didn't notice a few that went up in the Lunaverse forum over the past month or so.

From my understanding, Knighty disabled new thread alerts as apparently they were becoming a major strain on the server (taking up some 90% of all alerts). Supposedly this was only a temporary transitional measure and those notification were going to be moved over to the feeds section where story/chapter and blog alerts go. That was nearly 3 weeks ago though, so I'm not sure how/if that's still coming along.

Anyway, the short term solution is to use the dashboard page (accessible by the groups icon on FiMfic's navigation bar) which should always display the most recently updated threads in all groups you belong to. It's actually what I've got set as my browser's default home page.

I don't quite know what makes me want to redeem one villain, kill another, and maroon a third.

Honestly, I'm not sure an author ever needs a reason, or at least not one beyond knowing their own characters. The issue of redemption in reality is of course tricky at best because we can't ever be entirely certain who genuinely means to change for the better -vs- who's just faking it to get out of trouble. In narrative fiction that's never the case, because as the authors we can decide such things from the outset; it's just another quality for us to define no different than every other aspect of a characters personality.

Characters like Grogar and Solrath are fully aware of their wickedness, or in the case of Antithesis go a step further and actually revel in it. They are irredeemable not because of the specific actions they take, but because the reasons they take those actions. Maybe they made mistakes at some point which first led them down the dark path, but they did so with a wilful volition in service only to their own selfish desires and so even if given a second chance would repeat the same offenses all over again.

Moreover though, they are all characters that only exist to be villains and so even if we were to contrive some way to redeem any of them, they wouldn't really have anything left to do. Sure we could always invent new stuff for them to do, but it'd likely end up a role so drastically different from where they started that they'd functionally be an entirely new character anyway. Often it's just easier to write them out all together.

Not to mention that there are only so many good redemption tropes to exploit before the stories start getting repetitive, and for obvious narrative purposes Twilight and Celestia get first dibs.

...

I also think an issue of "fairness" has entered the discussion on the grounds of seeing redemption as some kind of REWARD, which it sort of is, but not necessarily a reward belonging to the redeemed character. In the other thread I mentioned Vader's redemption from Star War, but arguably that was never his reward; rather, it was Luke's. Luke was the one who risked everything to prove that their was still some good in his father, and Vader finally turning on the Emperor (at the cost of his own life) is the vindication of that belief.

Likewise, Corona's redemption isn't really so much her own reward as it is Luna's because after 1000 years, she's the one who finally gets her sister back. Also, on an arguably more important meta conceit, it is the reader's reward. It's the culmination of concept of being a PARALLEL continuity, and the fulfilment of the promise made to every fan of Celestia from the show that everything works out in the end.

...

So is that PCM? Maybe, but ultimately that's kind of what the protagonists exist for. They are our principle window into the fictional world. It's their view point that ultimately what defines everything we know about the world. Who the heroes or villains even are in any given story can depend greatly on how that story is presented in the first place.

Um...did I miss something? Can someone explain this to me?

3237157
Well, it all started with AtGGG, or rather AtN, but you already knew that much.

More recently, I think a similar argument got started over how RDD is planning to dispose of Solrath. Part of that argument was over whether being de-aged and reborn as a hatchling with no memories counted as death ort not. Mostly though we agreed that even if it was basically killing him off, he probably deserves as much

The bigger contention, however, came up when G&C posited that it's somehow unfair to treat different villains differently. Supposedly if we are going to reform Corona we should extend that same "courtesy" to ALL of her minions, regardless of their personal motives. It doesn't matter that we explicitly created Solrath to be a retched soul that has been wholly consumed by his own hate and now lives for no purpose other than to see fiery vengeance wrought upon Luna -- no, we have to throw all that out so he can have a last minute change of heart and then later become Spike's mentor or something.

3237271

More recently, I think a similar argument got started over how RDD is planning to dispose of Solrath. Part of that argument was over whether being de-aged and reborn as a hatchling with no memories counted as death ort not. Mostly though we agreed that even if it was basically killing him off, he probably deserves as much

It's death. You're killing them body and soul, so to speak. Whatever the hatchling grows up to be, it will not be the same dragon that was before, therego you are killing them.

The bigger contention, however, came up when G&C posited that it's somehow unfair to treat different villains differently. Supposedly if we are going to reform Corona we should extend that same "courtesy" to ALL of her minions, regardless of their personal motives. It doesn't matter that we explicitly created Solrath to be a retched soul that has been wholly consumed by his own hate and now lives for no purpose other than to see fiery vengeance wrought upon Luna -- no, we have to throw all that out so he can have a last minute change of heart and then later become Spike's mentor or something.

I might be missing something, having no way to track down the whole argument, but I agree that we shouldn't be in the business of redeeming everybody. Even the old show knew that you needed a good mix between redeemable baddies and pure evil.

3239664

You're killing them body and soul, so to speak.

It's not death in body, as he'd still more or less have the same one, just younger. Soul is quite a bit harder to define, but personally I consider that term to relate to a sort of vital spiritual essence, something that is distinct and separate from the physical, something that defines who and what we are on a core fundamental level that transcends mere experience. As such he'd still have the same soul as well, at least in my opinion. What "dies" in this scenario is only his mind, or rather the memories that molded him into the bitter old villain he is today.

Still, such arguments are pretty much all semantics really, and so not really the greater concern. Either way the "old" Solrath would be gone and what we'd be left with would be for most intents and purposes a "new" character. I'm not really concerned with whether that counts as killing or just giving him a second chance to grow up the right way. All the more so since it isn't even our heroes who will be offing him, but rather Discord.

My only concern is that regardless of how we "dispose" of him, that we be allowed to do so without it turning into some overblown argument about supposedly not treating ALL the characters "fairly". If nothing else, sometimes life just isn't fair. Even if every one deserves a chance at redemption, not every one will always get said opportunity, and of course there will always be those so set in their evil ways that they would only reject it even if offered.

3239664
3239689 It was also RK who opposed to it.

3167459
Well then, seems to me like the Quorum has come to a majority decision on Solrath's fate.

3239664

It's death. You're killing them body and soul, so to speak. Whatever the hatchling grows up to be, it will not be the same dragon that was before, therego you are killing them.

I totally agree, by the way, that he is going to die. It had just slipped my mind at the time when I was listing the characters in the Lunaverse I had intended to actually kill off (Grogar, Bray, Antithesis, Solrath, and a bunch of nameless donkeys 2,000 years ago who would have been dead by now anyway), and also for some reason I don't really see it as "death," per se. But I can fully understand how it could be seen that way.