...who finds it hard to believe that there isn't life after death?

I don't say that to talk down on the beliefs of those who don't but I just find it hard to believe that after we die, there's just "nothing," or whatever that could mean. I think even a pure black void would count as a perceivable element, given that it's a recognizable color, but it couldn't be that way because the body would have lost all of its functions to allow us to perceive or analyze anything around us. Of course, that includes our ability to experience and measure the passage of time, which would thus mean that death would have to feel like no time at all until...something happens, I don't know, whether it be reincarnating through our molecules or our souls traversing to the afterlife.

Again, no intent to start drama here, but what do you guys think?

4904004
Whether or not we believe something has nothing to do with whether it is true. This cuts both ways of course.

Personally Id rather focus on the world here and now, we know its here and we can work to make it better.

4904004 Can you imagine that you weren't alive before you were born? Do you remember that time? You should! That time lasted for eternity. Was it all black before you were conceived? Were you in Heaven since forever before you decided to possess a human body? Or did you, perhaps, simply not exist before you were born?

4904004 My religious beliefs aside, I believe that the souls are actual matter that exist in this plane but aren't constrained by it and can't be physically destroyed. I suppose that all life has a soul of some kind or identity. I believe that the soul itself has perception but it isn't the same in this universe as it might be elsewhere, where we go after.

5001161 Did souls exist since forever or are indestructable souls made by some process?

5001330 Well, I believe that we have a Heavenly Father (God) and Heavenly Mother, and that we were born to them in some way, so I guess we were created. It's kind of strange to me that something indestructible and eternal could just be created where it wasn't before, but who knows? The origin of souls is one of the most unknown and inscrutable things in Christianity (or Judaism, Islam). Really, it's a good idea not to worry to much about it, because it's not information we have access to and probably never will while we're here. It's best just to try to improve ourselves as much as we can, learn and grow, and help and love others as much as we can. I also treat my body well, since it allows my soul to express itself the way it should. That's one reason why I don't drink alcohol or do drugs, because it takes control of my body away from me. My religion helps me stay free. Sorry if any of this sounds weird to you.

5023349 Everything that you stated sounds weird to me.

5024021 Haha, well, it is rather peculiar. Any other questions?

5024741 You're perfectly fine with believing that there are some aspects of reality that we can't possibly learn about. What I wonder is how you can be certain that there are any aspects of God that we can even learn about. Is there any statement about God at all that you can put down as a fact?

5026162
Feelings, faith, and perseverance. That's all that people can really share when it comes to trying to prove something kept untangible tangible. I've seen and felt things that are impossible to psychologically mimic that has set me in stone that there is a God. But when it comes to finding physical hard evidence proof?

That's quite hard. I'm not saying that there is non, or that there is. What I'm saying is that finding proof for something spiritual can be only obtained through spiritual means, which are the three things stated above. In my studies, I could get more complicated than that, but I feel those things cover the point well enough.

For the sake of spirituality, and is also the part where wars and conflict bring out... Moments in history where God and the nature of God were proven, aren't proven because people of the time (magicians and the such) mimicked the same thing on a lower scale.

Take the story of the Passover for example. It's in the bible, and the Jewish community treat that event with the up most reverence.
To them and to me as well:
The water did in fact turn into blood, upon the Lords command.
The sky did rain fiery hail, upon the Lords command.
all other plagues did happen, upon the Lords command.

All plagues were mimicked by Pharaoh's magicians and priests in a lesser and incomplete scale.

My point with this is, no matter what proof people lay on the table, someone will either claim a trick or a rule of science that explains such an event. What most people don't get is that if it is science, what caused the event in the grand unseen scale anyway?

This question, this war, has gone on for centuries, that any bit of proof found is either logically debunked, or blindly rejected. The two sides of "Is God real" and "Is God fake," is so ancient that both sides are rooted into place. So, no, any evidence people show is rejected. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, it will be rejected.

The only evidence that can be handled without question is so sacred on a personal scale, that people forfeit their lives to hold on to it. It's a passion for greater than faith, and far more powerful than wisdom. It is knowledge.

I've said what I can on the matter, and I can also share where I stand.

I believe the same things as BBOFF.
I know without a doubt that there is a God, I know this for great personal reasons.

In the end it shouldn't matter why what I believe it, because it's making me a better person, and I am happier because of it.

TL:DR
Spiritual things can only be proven through spiritual means.

Edit: Whew, It's been a while since I've been in this groups forums! Feels nice.

5026776 So, what is that experience that got you so convinced?

Still, can you really trust what your brain come up with? There are many people who are absolutely convinced about extraordinary things. We call them insane. How do you distinguish your feelings with the feelings of an insane person?

5026797

So, what is that experience that got you so convinced?

Not telling you over the internet. That is an experience I only share with people I meet face to face and they show genuine interest.

can you really trust what your brain come up with?

yes, yes I can. I know how my brain more than what most people know of their brains. If you have a doctorate in psychology, then you should know the answer to that questions as well.

We call them insane.

Socially perhaps... but doctors do not. There's more to being insane than that. I'm insane in a peculiar way, but it's not to my beliefs but rather sporadic personality that people who know me in real life love.

How do you distinguish your feelings with the feelings of an insane person?

Simple, I don't kill people, nor do I care if people don't believe me.

5026827 I shared my out-of-body experience. Why can't you share yours? If it would bring people closer to the truth of reality, you should be spreading it not keeping it to yourself.

I heard that people who studied psychology mostly did so because they wanted to take care of their mental abnormalities.

How can one tell that one's not insane? Insane people are convinced that they aren't insane. Kind of like you view yourself, perhaps?

Oh, and not all insane people go out killing. Some are fine with just keeping their insanity to themselves without the need to share it.

5026867
Ya, I still don't want to share it, and I'm not reading your link. I don't trade experiences.

I heard that people who studied psychology mostly did so because they wanted to take care of their mental abnormalities.

Ya, I would be one of those people if I continued majoring in the program. I got board and now I'm into something I love more. That is also why I know more about my brain and what is wrong with it. I am insane, because if it weren't for my religious beliefs, I would be in a much darker and troubling place.

I rewrote this comment about seven times, and six of those times were filled with flawed arguments and hypocritical statements.

So I'll just answer the OP. Yes, I believe there is a life after death. I believe there was a existence before birth. I can't remember that time because of a spiritual veil that can only be lifted by the power of God. I've felt the love of God, and my goal is to feel it again, because I've not felt it to that degree since.

I exist, therefor there is a life after death, and there is a God.
My presence, and the presence of all humanity, the stars in the sky, and the infinite number of galaxy's is a testament to me, that there is a God. Yes, I am so selfish to believe that he created all of that just for us.

That is what I believe, and it fills me with peace greater than just being true to myself.

5026901

I exist, therefor there is a life after death, and there is a God.

My presence, and the presence of all humanity, the stars in the sky, and the infinite number of galaxy's is a testament to me, that there is a God.

These two arguments for God should be added to the following list:
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

5026908
Wow... wow...
Why are you in this group again?

Edit: Seriously, that was crossing a line.

5026914 How was I crossing the line? I didn't do anything that would prompt such an emotional outburst. I must have struck your nerve by accident.

What is that nerve of yours, I wonder.

5026934
I've seen that list before. It's a mockery to those who really do believe in God, and it's a strong statement to saying that my statement is as worthless and fool hardy as all the reasons on that page.

In the end, it struck a nerve because it shows that no matter what I or anyone says, they'll be made fun off. True, that's reality, and I can take that. What I won't do is just stand and get hit without reason.

So, whether or not that message was intentional, it was the message received.

Ever wonder what it's like to see both sides so clearly, that either argument makes sense to you? Still you choose to stay on the one side because you know you are better of for being on that side?

There really doesn't need to be a reason, a solid reason. Such things are to complicated to have such a solid reason.

I'll ask you one question, don't ignore it.

What does sacred mean?

5026940 I didn't mean to mock you. I was just expressing my oppinion. Come on, does this even make sense to you?

I exist, therefor there is a life after death, and there is a God.

How is your existence a proof of life after death? What you said didn't make much sense, just like the arguments in that link don't.

Ever wonder what it's like to see both sides so clearly, that either argument makes sense to you? Still you choose to stay on the one side because you know you are better of for being on that side?

I always want to see all sides clearly. I don't stay on the side that feels good, though. If it feels good, it's probably a lie. I value truth more than I value my feels.

There really doesn't need to be a reason, a solid reason. Such things are to complicated to have such a solid reason.

Everything has a solid reason. Nothing is too complicated for logic.

What does sacred mean?

It means that you value something to an extent that you're willing to sacrifice other things in order to preserve it. The thing is, different people find different things sacred. They can't all be right, right?

5026940
5026950

My personal proof of belief in a God is all the things around me. Everything around me was created, so why weren't the profenitors of life created? For example, where did it all start?

Plus, I've had a lot of seemingly miraculous things happen to me and prayers answered before. That's why I believe.

But, of course, that's just my side of things.

5026908
5026914
That list was coming sorta close to crossing the line between "refuting a point with humor" and straight-up mockery. I'm not looking to crush any sort of discussions here, but I do have a responsibility to step in when it starts to edge towards something more vitriolic than we'd like. I read the thread and I'm glad it's managed to regain more focus, so let's try and keep that going, alright?

To that end, I'm gonna lock this thread for about 12 hours so everyone has some time to cool off. Like I said before, I can see and am glad that it's moving away from crossing over to the mockery and vitriol side, and I can't overstate how thrilled I am to see this group become more active, but I'd just like to give everyone a bit of time to clear their heads and get them back into the right mindset. I don't want to have to start this place back up on a low note, yeah?

Alright, it's been about 12 hours. I'd say that this thread is ready to be unlocked. Whatever further discussion happens here, try and keep it from skirting that line I mentioned earlier, yeah?

5026162 5027006 5027167 5026940

Is there any statement about God at all that you can put down as a fact?

Fact? As in naked, quivering, measurable, pokeable, quantifiable, scientific fact? No, although I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that he loves me and everybody else, and that all he wants is our happiness. Also, I have had prayers answered in very direct, undeniable ways, as well as guidance when I most needed it, and when I was humble enough to ask for it. Perhaps the biggest thing is this: I have looked closely at all kinds of lifestyles, religions, mentalities, and I have found that this religion is, in fact, the one that can ultimately bring me the greatest happiness throughout my entire life, even if there is no actual divinity! That alone is enough reason to follow it. However, there is real divinity. The fact that it is so uncannily secure, peaceful, and happy (if I give it the proper effort) and encourages learning and progression tells me that there is real direction behind it, and that God is a real person, a parent, who wants me to return to him someday.