Okay, so you got an idea in your head for a great story and you start to plan it out. You start formulating a beginning, middle, and an end and you fill the cast of character with a unique roster with a lot of personality. Then you start writing that first scene and something feels kind of off. You're not sure what is yet, but you decide to keep going and get to the end of the chapter, and when you put the last word on the page you feel very unsettled. The word on the page leave a bad taste in your mouth, so to speak, and you start to question whether or not you want to keep going. You start going over your mental notes and you start to notice a trend in the plot: your characters go from scene to scene reacting to the events around them and making choices that should have a profound effect on their character.
But here's the problem, and it's one I'm just beginning to understand enough to articulate, but the narrative is so plot driven that all your characters do is act and react. Simply put, that amazing cast of characters you put together could have been filled with just about anybody. It doesn't matter who did this and who did what, all that matters in the story is that it happened.
I'm not trying to say plot driven works can't make good literature. That's not what I'm saying at all. But it would probably be helpful to include some more character driven elements. Such as unpacking your characters' emotional baggage.
I know Mass Effect had a fantastic plot and was an amazing game, but some of the best moments were interacting with the NPCs and catching them interacting with each other. The developers gave you the opportunity to explore a character's baggage, and although our culture generally frowns on the idea of having baggage of any kind let alone sharing it with other people, that baggage is what makes readers invest in a character.
Mass Effect, Twin Peaks, LOST, Breaking Bad, or pretty much any work of fiction with a great character driven element (not necessarily a primary element, but a memorable one) always allows for a lot of character interaction. So much of our life is spent interacting with other people, it makes sense that include a lot of conversations and interactions that aren't there just to advance the plot but rather to advance the relationship between two or more characters.
If you find yourself in the situation above, maybe adding more character driven elements could provide the zest your story is needing. The best stories always manage to hit a balance between being plot and character driven.
Anyone have any thoughts? I know every story has to be looked at by a case by case basis, but do you think I might be on to something here? I feel like there's more to it I'm not quite getting at but I don't know what it is, and I'm interested to see if anyone has any ideas as to what that might be or how to expand on this or if I'm just talking complete BS.

Well, a key part of writing Discord Space: Station Luna for me was that Applejack's choices are very specific to her character. From the very beginning, she handled the situation in her own way, different to how Twilight Sparkle or Pinkie Pie would. Of course, I do my best to ensure the plot remains strong too.

I feel the key is to really get into the character, and look at the plot from their perspective. Analyse how they would perceive and react to the situation as opposed to other characters, and go with that.

My only thought is that I often find myself asking "what baggage can be unpacked?" Some baggage can be incredibly profound but you just can't find a place where it'd come out. For example, a character in one of my stories is presented as a genuinely nice person who's out to help the Mane Six in whatever way she can. It's more the implied that she's got a major piece of baggage hanging around related to the kind of person she's been in the past, but there's just never a place where it'd come out without being forced somehow. I'm not sure how to fix this problem.
But I agree with the entirety of what you're saying here.

You can write an action adventure story, or you can write a character study.

Of course, it is most certainly possible to do both, but it invariably isn't as good as two separate, focused stories. Action/adventures (e.g. Raiders) don't need silly diversions like motivation and guilt and trauma. Character studies (e.g. Citizen Kane) don't need lots of explosions.

There are no hard and fast rules here, but in my opinion, it is utterly vital to understand your work before you write it, and to avoid elaborating on things that don't matter. In your example, you say that any character could have filled the role set out for them, because they merely act and react to the plot. I wouldn't think there's any need to go into great detail on the characters, but including little moments of almost faux significance can be crucial for characterisation. As Jokie said, even with a plot-driven narrative, we should still feel the characters choices in the way he/she acts, and have those choices reflect elements of their character.

Don't try to do too much. Even if you pull it off, you'll end up diluting the focus of the piece.

My writing has been very action and reactive lately recently, but I like to think the last two chapters I released put a stop to that. The problem was that I was forcing in plot elements into a very low plot story ( up to that point) while feeling rushed and pressured. In order to break my bad writing rut I had been in ( I hope I broke it) I focused back in on the characters, and let there dialogue and thoughts cause more of the story then the events themself.

855084 that is very funny... You seem to limit action to explosions and tombraiding.. What of the long journey of self discovery? What of the warring kings with clashing ideals and blades? The best sort of novel provides both character developement and a interesting plot.

855073 give her a situation similar to what caused the baggage, or give her a chance to be bad again. Both of those could happen in a otherwhise normal day and might let you "unpack"

855145
Sorry if I was unclear. But action adventure is a specific genre -- that's what I'm referring to. You say the long journey of self-discovery . . . is that not a character study? People may not realise it, but, for example, the prequel trilogy in Star Wars was a character study of Anakin. It was awful, just awfully written, but that's what it was. All the explosions and CGI in the world didn't help because at its core, there was no connection to the character that three whole movies were focused on.

Warring kings? Clashing ideals? Courtly intrigue and politics? Doesn't really matter. You say that the best novel provides both character development and an interesting plot. I totally agree, but in terms of trying to help you understand why you seem to have a problem with action/reaction, I would suggest that you need to step back, and evaluate the point of the narrative.

Raiders of the Lost Arc is not about Indiana Jones. The guy is practically immortal, invincible, and amoral. The story is about the adventure, its about living vicariously through his exploits. But that doesn't mean that we can't make Indy an interesting character, with backstory and development.

Let's take a look at the idea of warring kings. Is this story being written in first-person? Is it third-person omniscient? Does one king suffer from a progressive breakdown, or have a revelatory moment that reshapes his character? All of those would point us towards a character study, with thematic implications. Action becomes the backdrop, not the point. On the other hand, it could also be the setup for an epic saga involving the commonfolk, the princes and nobles, foreigners from across the seas, etc etc. Here, then, the reader expects to find the Average Joe with which they can empathise, and understand the world from his perspective. It becomes more of an adventure in the style of The Hero's Journey.

Part of the reason Game Of Thrones has become so popular, in my opinion, is that in making no character safe, it really throws these fundamental principles out the window. The story is essentially a character study of a whole era.

So yes, a good story must have both strong characters and a strong plot. My advice is to simply understand your story's strengths, and play to them.

855174 one king suffers from a proggressive breakdown in the first person while the other one degenerates into a viscious tyrant. And don't ever use StarWars 1-3 as a example of anything more then a failed attempt at reaching a younger audience then your fanbase... Unless you want to of course... Raiders if the lost arc is a actionadventure/treasure hunt. No great and fantastic story that is remembered by everyone forever is ever limited fully to one genre or excells in just one area. If raiders of the lost ark was a pure action adventure movie then the final scene in which all the bad guys get there faces melted off when the good guy failed to stop them would make no sense and be out of place.

855151 It's a good idea and normally would work, but the circumstances of her reform and the original wickedness are such that it's not possible to repeat. I think that a non-liar variant of the "liar revealed" plot device might be the solution.

855201 then try it my friend! You should try to get the baggage off your character's back or it might break! Though that too could be a method if unpacking.

855084
Actually, I disagree. In the last ten years there has been a major shift in story telling focus. Say what you want about 'popular' TV shows and literature, but they are popular for a reason. The TV shows and books that achieve both a high degree of popularity and critical acclaim are both character and plot driven. The two driving forces are not so much occurring parallel to each other, but are rather intwined and blurred together.
There are exceptions to this, just as there are exceptions to the three act structure, but this seems to be a reoccurring trend in the most successful, most achieving, and most popular stories of the last 13 years.
I know this is true of LOST, Breaking Bad, Battlestar Galactica, Hyperion, and Firefly. I can't say the same for Game of Thrones or Walking Dead because I have never actually seen them, but from what I've heard, I'd guess they probably are.

855209 True. :) The real point of the baggage, though is an illustration of the fact that in the main conflict of the story, there's no such thing as a completely virtuous side. The "good guys" feature a reformed monster, another person who's playing chess with the lives of innocent ponies, and fanatics whose version of "saving" someone is summarily running them through and burning the body. Initially, though, the Mane Six are presented with a situation that looks like a clear black and white.

855198
Please, watch this. Not only hilarious, but also incredibly informative in terms of understanding why stories work.

From the story with the kings, you just described a character-driving-plot story. Decisions the kings make will further illustrate their mental state, and the climactic battles are really kind of incidental to the overall story. King Lear springs to mind.

The Star Wars prequels are fantastic as examples of how not to do things. I don't know why you'd refrain from using them as such--often, that is far more valuable than an example of something done properly.

I fail to see how the final scene in Raiders makes no sense. It works perfectly in a thematic sense, both justifying Indiana and condemning the Nazis.

I don't feel like these examples you're offering are actually contradicting me. I'm not suggesting limiting yourself, I'm suggesting that you take the time to understand where the story is coming from, and what it is about, and writing towards that. Stuck with action/reaction, or baggage that characters need to dump? The solution will change depending on your story. LotR might have them move to a new place, where there can be exposition and development, because, as a story, its about the journey, about moving to new and exciting places. A plot-centric story will have something external happen to bring it out, while a character-driven story will just have the character break it down through interior dialogue or their actions.

It's not as simple as tacking new genres on to your story so you can fix characters. I don't really think that that's what you're doing, by the way, but your replies don't seem to really get what I'm trying to convey. If you don't know what your story is about, of course its going to feel awful--and you probably won't know why.

855221 I will give you a secret about my story. My main character is the( young) god of innovation, imagination, and insanity. A god of both divine creation and destruction. He inspired artists and weapons developers alike. He is the insanity of both the best composer and the most brutal monster, and the imagionation of everyone. Or at least she was. ( god of indeterminate gender seeing as how imagination is not limited by gender). Its kind of a story of how imagination and inspiration are never purely innocent or evil aspects.

855230 Indeed. After all, Herr Doktor Joseph Mengele was an enormously imaginative "scientist". Also a grisly psychopath who used victims of the Nazi death camps as his playthings.

855219
I'm not convinced that these definitions are clear, so I'm going to lay them out here, as I understand them.

When the basic story is driving toward a particular event or plot outcome, that’s technically plot-driven. When the basic story is more about the character’s internal growth and change, that’s technically character-driven.

Naturally, both of these can be true at once--in fact, they often are. On a macro level, though, when considering the work as a whole, I would reject that Breaking Bad, for instance, is about the plot. I'm not particularly interested in what specifically happens to Walter, I'm interested in Walter himself. In the way the plot--because yes, it does exist, and it is important--begins to break him down. From my perspective, I care about Walter, not the events of his life. I'm not invested in the way he uses the trailer in the desert to cook, or the details of his chemotherapy, I'm interested in why he took so long to tell his wife. Examples like that make it clear, to me, that Breaking Bad is intensely character driven. (And yes, I'm excluding everyone else for simplicity).

Everything character-driven is almost by necessity plot-driven, because certain things need to happen in order to incite this journey into the characters. All I'm saying is that, as a writer, you must understand why the reader should care, and what the reader should care about.

855229 the final scene in tombraider would not make sense if it were a pure action film. Sorry if my curvy thinking wasn't clear. What I'm trying to say is that no stort is a purebreed of one genre. I would take us away from movies which have eyecandy movies, and back to literary fiction which is what you find on this website. Stories of pure actio adventure don't work in books. Characters need a emotional hook for us to connect to. Otherwhise it is just a dull nothing of a person doing things we don't care about. John the armored man with some backstory lunged at the dragon and chopped its head off. Movie=possibly good; book=shit. The best fight scene I ever read was a fan fic whose name alludes me ( its 1:46 a fracking m here) that in itself is a great thing for a movie, but without the character developement happening through the mid battle dialogue and internal dialogue, it would have been awfuly boring.

855244 I just had a awesome idea! Not gonna tell u inhopes you go read what Im writing to find out what it is.

855260 Give me a good reason to NOT be disturbed by the fact that your brilliant idea was inspired by me bringing up Joseph Mengele...

855255
Literature certainly is a different beast. While I was trying to allude to film for clarity, we'll see about diving into literature shall we?

You are entirely correct in what you say. I'm going to repeat this for emphasis. Everything you just said was completely accurate.

However, I've been talking about something completely different: What the story is about.

An action story must have character development. A character story can have action (and really should, in some form). But that doesn't change what type of story it is. Over-blowing the characters in an action story will dilute the action down so much that it grows boring, or morphs into a character story. Using too much action in a character story throws off the pacing, and renders development rather abrupt. Hence, understanding what type of story you are writing is very important.

This is different from scene-to-scene decisions, its about the story as a whole, and its what should be informing the author. Its certainly where I turn to for solutions were I stuck with awkward scenes or problems I wasn't sure how to resolve.

855267 it has more to do with feeling guilt over inspiring such monsters with such evil imaginations then the insane Joseph mengele! Surely seeing one of the aspects of oneself doing that would be horrifying.

855276 Ah, good. Crisis averted.

855280 So you gonna read my story then? * wags tail like a puppy*

855292 Which one?

855250
It is about the characters just as much as it is about the plot. The test between plot or character driven is, at it's simplest form, is: does the character make decisions that are the next obvious step in the plot (or that anyone would make in that situation, for example, "I have to do this because they will kill my family otherwise") or does that character make decisions because of his or her relationships with others or because of a personality trait or baggage (such as "I have to do this so we can be together forever").
Part of the appeal of stories that pull off both is that one person can watch for the plot, and another for the characters. Walter White, just like Jack Shepard and Admiral Adama, made plenty of decisions because it was what was needed to be done, and they all made plenty of decisions just because that's the way they are or because of a motivator put on them because of a relationship with another.
That said, it's not all about choices and reactions. What I'm trying to say is that there is more to a good story than those two things.

855296 who am I what is a pony. The other one is total... Bad stuff. A practice in insanity.

855297
Sort of like Viking Hooves, you're talking about micro-decisions, made within each scene. That's distinct from the story as a whole, which is what I'm talking about.

The plot of Breaking Bad exists because of the insight it gives us into Walter. It isn't the point of the whole story, its the vehicle that gives us the point. As a writer, I contend that it is important to understand your story so that you can make the right decisions in respect to pacing, flow, characterisation, exposition, etc.

In short, everybody is right.

855309 I am in a writing dream state and will leave the argument to those who can think straight. Im sorry to tell you but something about what you are saying doesn't taste right.

855318
Well, I base what I say, originally, on this. Even if you find the source dubious, rest assured that I've found the same ideas all over the internet, relating back to the basic four types of story.

Again, every story contains all four types. But the type that dominates, that is important. Placing emphasis in the wrong spot, to me, dilutes the story, which is to be avoided.

It is easy to see how this can be a controversial topic, especially since I consider LotR to be a milieu story. Take this how you wish, this is all just the way I look at it.

855359 now it tastes awful and I didnt even click on the link!!! How for the love of faust do you do that??

855364
And now I'm just confused.

855373 its three in the morning. My worst and craziest fanfic was written at this time as was my best. The difference was I looked over the good one again while awake before posting

855380
Haha, fair enough.

Go to bed, you silly person you.

855040 Where I notice this issue most is in my characters' dialogue. Usually all of my dialogue scenes have characters talking about something to do with the plot: seeking information, clashing over their different views, etc. It makes all of my characters kind of flat.

I really admire the structure of stories. This is one of the reasons I really like cliches, Mary Sues, and a whole bunch of other things that annoy people. I'm always curious about what makes these kinds of stories and characters popular (or not). If there's a popular movie out that sounds like something we've all seen a dozen times, I'm interested in what makes it tick.

Ah, but none of my fanfiction has characters with the level of emotional depth that I aspire to. Mostly their characters are in service to the plot. This is a failing of mine. I love to create (what I think are) cool plots with mysteries and surprises to them, but I don't spend nearly as much time peeling back the layers of the characters.

I remember when I was almost halfway through my first fanfiction story. I thought I was being clever, trying to give readers cool moments, mystery, adventure and deadly peril...

That's when I read the story that ended up my favorite fanfiction ever, Eternal by device heretic, and it made me want to delete every word I'd written of my own story. Why? Because I realized that I kept using my characters for the plot, but in this story the characters were the plot. Oh, there's an adventure story there too. There's a mysterious antagonist and things happen, but none of that is what matters. What matters is how the characters unfold themselves to you throughout the story, how their hopes and fears are the landscape in which the story takes place. Very little happens outside of them. (Most of the story is character interaction and thoughts, with a few action scenes thrown in.)

Anyway, I'd love to say that I took the lesson to heart and now my stories don't fall into the same trap, with characters that are all action/reaction, but I can't. This is one of my biggest struggles as a writer, letting my characters breathe and act like real people instead of always doing whatever it is that I have set out for them to do.

855400 nein!

855899 I didn't read all the comments, so if I'm reposting I'm sorry but I have no opinion on Game of Thrones...

It sounds to me like you don't know your characters well enough. You should, according to the writing guides I've read, know your main characters better than you know yourself. You should know how they will react in any hypothetical situation, no matter how far removed from the initial plot or setting.

This is actually what makes MLP so great in the first place. We understand Rarity so well that we can imagine how she would react to alien invasion.

If you really understand the characters well, they will sometimes start reacting to a situation you've put them in in a way entirely differently from what you had initially planned. Go with it; you'll probably write your best chapter ever.

Flip-side: don't give your characters more depth than they need. Not everyone has a tragic past, some people had really boring childhoods. These can make great perspective characters as they are easier to relate to. Also, the only reason we care about the plot is that we care about the characters it's happening too.

tl;dr give your characters more quirks and have a reason for them.

I would like to point some things out:

One of the greatest resources a writer has is connected to our experiences living life itself. If we experienced something, we can communicate what we experienced to others who may not have experienced it.

The point I am getting at is to take a look at our lives in relation to this problem, and ask the question: Is it character-driven, or plot-driven?

The answer, unvariably, is that it is a mix of both, AND THEY FLUCTUATE.

Key points in our lives are driven by the people we interact with: our parents, co-workers, friends, enemies, etc.... Other key points in our lives are driven by milestones within our lives that drive us to the inexorable "goal" of death: taking your first steps, going to various schools, recreational events like concerts and parties and theme parks and whatnot, involvement in wars in certain locations, struggling against prevailing attitudes and stereotypes because of events in the past, on and on and on.

In short, our lives are both driven by "what is happening" and "who we affect/are affected by." Neither one ever asserts total dominance, since one element could smack the other out of influence at any given time: for example, let us just say that a person wanted to enlist in the Army to serve in Iraq back when America was bringing down Saddam. That's a driving "plot point", but they could be prevented from happening in this person's story by doing so by 1.) The army recruiter (the person may not have what it takes) 2.) the person's family (they could convince the person not to risk life and limb for a war that did not have a happy ending) 3.) a total stranger (a robber/burglar could cripple the person in some way, or outright kill them) 4.) Other. These are all character-driven elements that could prevent that particular "plot point" from moving forward. OR, the "plot point" could move forward DESPITE the character-driven segments.

I guess the best way to illustrate what I am getting at is the difference between Lagrangian Perspective and Eulerian Perspective, for all you Engineering types In layman's terms, "Lagrangian Perspective" is describing an object in 3-D space by its path of motion through the 3-D space. Everything in Lagrangian perspective is measured from that path of motion; the path is what matters, not the space it moves through. In Eulerian Perspective, the object is described by the space it moves through, much like the traditional XYZ coordinate systems we see all the time. It is the space that defines the motion of the ball, not the path of motion itself.

The key is to understand that both of these Perspectives are using different ways of DESCRIBING THE EXACT SAME THING: the motion of the ball. Thus, the perspectives are inter-changeable depending on what it is you may need.

And I honestly think that this interchangeability can be infused into the whole "character-driven/plot-driven" debate, because both "driving forces" describe THE EXACT SAME THING: what happens to the character/what the character does, which is what the reader cares about in the end. Therefore, one should use whichever perspective is most effective for the story, and not be afraid to switch things up when necessary, or make use of both for maximum impact.

After all, the pilot episode for MLP: FiM has both plot-driving elements (the return of Nightmare Moon/re-discovery of the Elements of Harmony) AND character-driving elements (Twilight makes friends and realizes the power of friendship). That ending scene with Nightmare Moon both has character growth AND plot development, BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. Ask yourself this: Which driving element in that story is "more important"?

Then ask yourself this: DOES IT EVEN MATTER WHICH ONE IS "MORE IMPORTANT"?

Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are legitimate tools for the writer to use wherever they see fit.

I would say to try and incorporate both character-driving AND plot-driving elements in a story, because that is how life works after all. The closer a character is to "life", the more "real" they feel to the reader, which greatly benefits the story due to its increase in relatability.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Make of them whatever you will.

Sincerely,

Mr. Album

855899
Sounds like you haven't found the emotional "core" of your pieces yet. It's an easy thing to overlook, as it isn't something they teach you about stories most of the time, but it's as essential to a story as themes, plot, and characters.
Ideally, a story is never just about the action, but about the experience and what the character takes away from that. Usually this is impossible to do without developing and unpacking some of the character's baggage. The plot, the emotional growth, and the themes of the story should never be separate elements, but should be woven together and One on some level.
Maybe this will help.
Let's say a character goes on a quest to save the world and defeat the Big Bad (basic on the surface plot, but let's go beyond that). Why is saving the world important? Because to do so requires the McGuffin and it's what the character wants more than anything else to have (now the character is a little more and unpack that baggage). Why does the character want the McGuffin so badly? Because the character's father died trying to retrieve it and was murdered by the Big Bad (okay, now that we have baggage, let's unify all things). How are these related? The character is obsessed with retrieving the McGuffin to the point where he's become dysfunctional because it's his way of trying to connecting with the father he lost, and defeating the Big Bad isn't so much a plot victory so much as a symbolic gesture of him defeating his own obsession. The sunrise at the end of the fic is a metaphor for the obsession free life ahead of him.
Pretty rough, but maybe this starts to paint a picture about how they are all the same on some level. A story should never just be about fighting a monster, but about the experience and what it means personally to the character.
I hope this helps!