New episodes, such as the season four premire and Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep, both disprove the claim!s of Luna's innocence in the Banishment, and inflict serious damage on any credibility Luna has for being a good ruler. Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep in particular was downright awful. It depicted self harm and depression as personality quirks that could be handled in 22 minutes. This is one of the worst possible messages to kids you can send, and DHX has messed up big time. Still, we can't pretend this isn't cannon, because it is. Can Princess Luna be a good leader if she is prone to depression and self harm and her mood swings have put Equestria in danger more than once? I no longer think she should rule.

Now, I know a lot of you are going to say that she should be in power because Celestia is so much worse, and the fact is, I am no longer convinced even of that. But that is another topic entirely. If you want to delve deeper into that, check out this story...

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/248728/the-folly-of-celestia

Now, I am not trying to start a flame war, I just want an intelligent discussion.

4965349 Okay...so your telling me...that Luna can't be a good leader...because she is actually a character? A character that has flaws, that beats themselves up for doing something so horrible a thousand years ago that she couldn't bring herself to forgive herself until she had friends to help her and see that she shouldn't be doing this kind of crap? I've never seen someone actually complain about that episode and how it portrays Luna before but you just...worded it horribly. I'm sorry that a character, let alone a princess, can't have flaws in your world. In this republic we have to see the problems with others, and help them fix it. Also Celestia does that as well but she barely has any screen time or anything to help flesh her out.

But this is all my opinion so yeah.

4965367

I'm not saying that Luna can't have flaws, she can, but there are flaws that you can't have in the position Celestia holds. And one of those flaws is mental instability. Her likability as a character is seperate from the fact that she needs professional help. Beating yourself up over flaws and failings is one thing, but the type of self harm that Luna indulges in endangers everyone in Equestria.

But let's take that out of the picture, lets say that Luna was a human girl who did something to herself (and only to herself) equally harmful, like cutting herself, and suffered from internal self hate. Would you get her have authority over a nation? Or would you take her (kicking and screaming if nessesary) to a psychiatric ward so that she could get help?

4965457 Let's see now...
You know the whole story of how she hated being ignored and then her hate went on rampage right? And then she was shoved into the moon for a thousand fucking years, thinking both on how to take over Equestria, and silently crying herself to sleep on the moon for how fucked up she became, and what she did. She's thinking 'I need to carry my burdens because I fucked up so hard that it's not even funny', and even during the Halloween episode she tried being happy and cheerful but fucked up at points because she scared the piss out of people.(even though it's Halloween and she didn't know which part of the holidays body puked candy and whimsy and the other part shat bricks in fear). But guess what happened? She had friends that helped her adjust(making a few steps or a stride here and there) and who knows how she adjusted during her time in Canterlot being the night Princess again and all that jazz.

What I'm trying to get at is would you try and help that poor girl see the light in things after she's harbored such anger, sadness, and whatever else so have you? Or would you just say 'eh fuck it' and ignore it? Cause she's not only getting help, but she's being fleshed out as a pony of today after so long of being isolated and alone, without even a fricken teddy bear of all things! A psychiatrist can only do so much, but friends can do a lot more in certain circumstances. And trust me, a leader doesn't just do shit by themselves, every single leader in all of history had help, hell even dictators had some help here and there to keep things from going belly up faster then they can say 'I'm your boss'.

4965494

You make a good point. But until she had a year or two after this latest escapade and some real professional help, I personally would not trust her with matters of state. I'm not saying that her faults are all her fault (looking at you DHX) and I'm not saying that she is a bad pony because of them. I like Luna, but right now, I just don't think she is fit to be a leader. One day, certainly, but not today.

Also, and this my head cannon, I'd like to think that Luna was trapped in stasis on the moon, rather than being aware of the time that passed.

4965527 So...you only want Celestia to have power again? Even though Celestia has the day court and Luna has the Night court?(which she does because she's back and she has power of state and all that crap). Also Lauren Faust made Luna, I don't know who else made her become fleshed out because they liked her a lot more then Celestia...and your just speaking crap about Luna because she actually has problems.

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4965527

Okay so this is coming from a Cadet Capt in the CAP, what Luna did was create a way to remind herself of what she did so that she wouldn't do it again. (In no way can this relate to self harm, as it is much closer to a... high amount of regret and thus self hate) Now where she went wrong is that she didn't forgive herself for her actions after she had been forgiven by the others. She obviously still feels out of place, as you can tell by the way she carries herself with the traditional 'Royal We' way of speaking. DO I believe that she would make a good leader, yes I do. My reasoning, when she noticed the problem she immediately took command of the situation, may have panicked a bit, but she nonetheless led throughout the episode. Now looking back at the NLR, its a Republic, so she is not leading on her own, she has a large support staff and can be removed from power should she become obsessed or fall too far.

Now if we take a look at Celestia and her leadership skills, she sent Discord to deal with Tirek even though she knew that his loyalty could be swayed and that Twilight and her friends working with Discord would be a safer bet. She sent Twi and the gang to the Crystal Empire to deal with the Sombra situation (when Twi was a student) instead of being a true leader and dealing with a problem she postponed by using the elements on him in the first place instead of using the Heart, nearly resulting in Twi and the gang, not to mention Shining and Candace nearly becoming slaves of the undead (?) Unicorn. She always wait till the last second to address problems and always sends others in her place. Wherever she goes she has everyone treat her like she is a living goddess, unlike Luna (There is a literal difference between princess and goddess, and the pony's treat her like the latter. She has done nothing to rectify that.) Should she be leader, not in my opinion, would Luna be better, yes.

How do the Mane 6 apply in the NLR (My opinion) They would most likely end up as the council behind Luna in the system of checks and balances, and we would end up with something resembling the Fallout Equestria universe pre war but without the crazy. (Again my opinion)

Please remember to keep it clean in the forums!

4965632 thank you, and to some of the things you said I feel like I could disagree at some points but I won't, you made things sound right here.

4965349
I agree and disagree. No one can deny it. In some ways Luna is not a good ruler. But we also have to realize that Celestia is not perfect as well. Both have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to ruling a kingdom. Character traits that speak for great leadership and against it.
Luna in my opinion has her greatest strength in the closeness to her people. Who is the one who cares about the youth? Who helps others overcome mental struggles? It is always Luna, who does this via her dream walking ability. However as we have seen she is also a fighter (because in Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep? she blasts dream demons appart and I suspect she can do this in reality as well). In A Canterlot Wedding, we can see her guarding the place, watching out for any sign of threat. (Sure, no one saw Chrysalis' reveal coming, but that is for another debate.) In my opinion Luna is a very passionate ruler, who will not fear to fight for her kigdom.
However Luna of course has a flaw and that overshadows her great abilities partly. Her own past and thus the consequences that come with it. First and foremost her guilt. I think, the Tantabus is a metaphorical symbol for guilt. I don't think it represent depression, but guilt, growing and weighing you down, leading to selfdoubt and the fear to disappoint. Luna is very insecure about herself and this is her greatest flaw. She thinks How can I ever make right what I did wrong?. It might also explain why she has become so protective and cares for mental health. She knows what happens if these signs are ignored.
Still this mental instability makes her a threat to her own kingdom. After all she almost doomed Equestria. Twice!
Celestia on the other hand is not perfect either. We all know that she has great moral values and will do everything according to them. She is kind, forgiving, loving, soft spoken, wise and has a lot experience. However she also believes in the good in people and this can lead to her making dumb and risky decision. Like in Twilight's Kingdom, she send Discord out to find Tirek. What happens? Discord joins side with Tirek and thus makes him strong again. How dumb was that?
Moreover in the season five finale we see Celestia's greatest flaw: She cannot act properly when her kingdom is in a dangerous and threatening situation. Look at the alternate futures: She loses every single time! Without the Elements of Harmony Celestia is a incompetente ruler that not capeable of protecting her own kingdom.
Unlike Luna. Yes, you heard me right! Luna is capeable of protecting a kingdom if necessary. Not as herself but as Nightmare Moon! Look at her timeline. Equestria is at peace. There are no wars going on, no hiding in the woods, no chaos. Nightmare Moon states it herself: My sister is banished in the moon for years. Her kingdom lasts for a long time. She fought off Tirek, Discord, Chrysalis and Sombra. I even dare to say she might have gone so far to kill her opponents (or eliminate them in another way). Nightmare Moon even states that her only threat are the Elements of Harmony (which do not exist). This shows that the only competent Alicorn ruler is a villain!

4966341

You raise some interesting points. However, I would like to point out that in the comics (if you even consider those cannon) have established that Nightmare Moon was a dark entity that possessed Luna when she wasn't at her best. I do think you have a point when it comes to Luna's and Celestia's leadership roles. Celestia is the distant, maternal, 'help you from afar' mentor, while Luna is more personal in her dealings with ponies. I don't think that this is a bad thing, its not, but I do think that this is a tricky position for a mentally unstable immortal to be in.

Consider this: what would happen if through helping a pony, that pony died as a result of her help, or died in his or her sleep? What then? Odiously Luna would feel guilt, the natural response. This would not be bad if it was properly dealt with. But if it wasn't? That guilt would fester and grow. Nothing might happen to her the first time, but the second? Third time? Hundredth time? She is in a very iffy situation that could go wrong at a moments notice. Immortals do what they do for a reason, and keeping your distance from ponies that you will outlive a hundred times over just comes with the deal.

And as to Celestia's boo boos, you have a point. I do have arguments I could list in her defence, but they are all in the story I listed in the first post, and I don't want to get to off track.

I want to be clear: I don't hate Luna. I do think that the fandom needs to acklowlage her faults and realize that she needs immediate professional attention. If she were just an ordinary so and so, I would still want that for her. But she's not ordinary, she's next in line for the throne, and immortal to boot. This makes it all the more important for her to have help.

I know I'm going on and on about this one point, but I just feel that it is an important one. People have compared the Tantabus's nightly dealings with Luna as simply reminding yourself of old scars. That is not what happened, that wasn't reminding yourself of the scars, that was continuosly slicing at them to make sure that they don't heal. Sure, it may not be exactly the same thing as taking the knife to your wrist, but its just as damaging, if not more so.

I don't blame Luna, I blame the writers for their complete idiocy when dealing with this episode, and their blatant character assassination.

4966373
I know the comics and normally I consider them canon but here I only used what the show gave us. And I agree. This dealing with depression was wrong. Just like they handled Fluttershy's possible anxiety at the start. I also do understand your point. Luna really needs serious help. However we have to remember: This is a kid's show! The writers can not deal with mature themes in too great depth. They have to do it in a metaphorical way. The best example for this done well is probably Tanks for the Memories, which deals with death through Rainbow's stages of grief and the image of winter.

You raise good points that I agree with, and I find that I only have this to say: if over zealous fans (like me) didn't over analyze and take a show for little girls way too seiriously, we wouldn't have 'Lullaby for a Princess' or 'Children of the Night' or any of the great writers on this site

Questions like this are neither pleasant or comfortable for anyone involved (unless you are a troll who gets off on that) but I feel that they need to be asked and discussed so that we and fandom can grow and mature.

And seriously, we need more episodes like Tanks for the Memories, that was done almost perfectly.

4965349
Well I just saw this and this and I thought I'd give my two bits on the topic.

First of yes I agree that Luna as she has been portrait is shaping up to be a character with a lot of shortcomings. A serious case of depression that wasn't dealt with properly one of the main along with inexperience in ruling since u know she was banished shortly after discord was defeated.

All that in mind thou I think that actually makes her a better character and possibly a better leader then Celestia ok so I will try to keep it short but no promises.
First off why Celestia would be a worse ruler in the long run.
Celestia is always shown to be perfect she cant do wrong(Unless she wants to point case the G.G.Gala). Yet the one time there was a possibility she was wrong (When she thought she hat tormented Discord for 1000 years ) she disregarded the potential danger to her ponies and set Discord free all in the hopes of making it right. (Yes she took precautions but and you could claim she did it so she doesn't risk Discord breaking free again at a time when the elements couldn't deal with him. But the fact that the mane 6 didn't even know it was happening before they were given the task leads me to believe it was more a spur of the moment and her wanting to take care of her doubts, she even instructs the mane 6 to seal him up if he makes trouble which to me means she wants assurance that he is irredeemable.)

Summary: Celestia is a somepony who will put others in danger just to prove that she is right( To herself more then to others). So let me ask you what happens when she makes a mistake?(My thoughts she doesn't know how to deal with it because she cant make a mistake she never has and if she does then she starts questioning all of the choices she's made and breaks down. Equestria along side her.)

Luna has many mistakes behind her and no particular experience ruling. What she does have however is a plethora of life experiences, she has been revered as a god dismissed as a shadow of her sister had daemons posses her, been treated as a demon (rightfully so) and so much more and trough all these highs and lows she has learned how her subjects feel and she could relate to anypony no anybody. And even more importantly she has learned the lesson that she cannot deal with everything alone.(She went for help from the mane 6 in Do princesses dream of magic sheep).

Lastly from the season finally we saw that if Luna were forced to take over she would fall into the place of ruler nicely( I mean sure things seemed a bit harsher(I blame the fact that in that timeline Luna hadn't really experienced being shunned by her people) but even so she had mobilized an army willing to follow her and protect her kingdom (They were patrolling a long way from her castle) and I presume she also found a way to grow plants without sunlight otherwise I think all the ponies would be dead since at least 1 year had past since her taking the throne in that timeline.

My opinion on the whole thing in one sentence: As Luna is now I would bet that she would make a mistake somewhere and possibly ponies will be hurt as a result but if you think of Equestria in the long run Luna is clearly better suited for a ruler since all she needs is experience while Celestia is literally one mistake away from falling into shambling peaces.

Bit of personal advice for you Shattered-Rose: Don't overthink all the details of a show or else your favorite characters will turn into twisted versions of themselves in your eyes. Each suffering of some sort of severe mental illness if not multiple. Its true of pretty much every anime and almost all movies and tv shows. Media just has to exaggerate things so tat you can fell a stronger connection to it since you know its literally supposed to make you experience hours of feelings boxed up in a short amount of time. After all if it doesn't make you feel anything then you wouldn't have a reason to come back to it.

4967164

I don't agree with a whole lot of what you said, but I think I can understand why you think that way. As for Celestia, I really don't want to get into that in this trend, as I am a rather zealous Celestia supporter and I don't want to start a flame war. Pretty much anything I have to say is in the story in the first post.

As for your final paragraph, jeez that is so true. I'm kinda an amatuer bring anylist (as if we don't have enough of those) and more often than not, I find myself over thinking this show and taking it too seriously. Which is an easy trap to fall into.

4967175
Well I sort of see where you are coming from too. To each their own I guess.
I wish I could say I know how it feels to be zealous about something but I sort of don't have that. I mean I like things but that whole borderline fanatic thing is something I've never experienced.

Still its nice to have a semi serious thought about pastel ponies once in a while so tnx for making the post and best of luck to you.

4967191

Luck to you as well.

4966443
Of course not. I love overanalysing such stuff. I mean, we put multicoloured ponies in mature and dark themes. And it is because we think so much (maybe too much) that great stories and works can arise.

4968319

Ah, analyst brownies, they will always hold a special place in my heart.

Well, its not like the show itself warns against the dangers of over thinking. *cough*lessonzero*cough* hhmm hhmm. Sorry, I had "Incredibly Annoying To Watch But Also Incredibly Important To The Growth Of The Show" stuck in my throat.

4968323
No problem. But it is true. Some mental breakdowns happen in the show regulary and they of course scream for an anaylsis. Oh, and rare answers etc.