Something which has nagged at me since we first published has been the story's title compared to the story itself.

It makes me wonder... do we change it? Keep it? It's optional to change. The Immortal Game was once called Ponies Make War. And judging from that lackluster title, I can see why he changed it to the much more ominous current title.

Initially, this story was just a generic "Nyx protects ponykind from the various threats present during the zebra war" plot. But the story is so much more than that now. When I think of the epic scope and scale, it's really a Wrath of the Titans level plot with a somewhat pedestrian title. When I think of a brand new person seeing that title on Fimfiction's front page (like it sits right now), I can't help but wonder what goes through their mind. Does that title give the impression that they are about to embark on an epic adventure?

Does anyone else feel like maybe the title could use a change? And if so, does anyone have any ideas on a good alternative? Keeping in mind that I'm trying to divorce the story as much as possible from negative stigma and all that.

We can drop "Nightmare Nyx", But if we end up keeping it, here are a few I thought of. "Nightmare Nyx: Protector", "Nightmare Nyx: The Infiltration", "Nightmare Nyx: Transcendance"

5728495 Dude, make sure you click on the double arrow so that Recon can pick up the message next time

5728492 As for the title... I find it fine honestly but I can't say the same for others that might pick up this book. The decision to change the name is all on you. If you wish to change the name, call any of us, I think we can help

5728492
I agree that changing the title is a good idea. No idea what you'd change it to, though.

5728492
I agree. If we look at the themes this story is dealing with I think we can come up with something. Change being the biggest.

5728519 ok! I not familiar with how the forums here work really yet.

Though to assuage your worries, it was the conversation that Recon and I were having where I put forth those suggestions that prompted the post here. Figured for something as big as a name changed the story, the whole group should be involved.

The first thing that would help is thinking if we want to keep "Nightmare Nyx:" as the start of the title. If not it expands what we have available, but also isn't quite as informative about which universe this is happening in. Though, that may be a good thing?

5729102 If you are planning to keep that title... then by all means, keep it! It was the original title for some time and I've grown rather attached to it lately

5728492 , Perhaps I'm the odd man out for thinking the title should stay the same. I mean, there are readers that already know this story as such. To change it now would just confuse them. A story shouldn't aim to be confusing for confusion's sake... said the guy that sometimes writes "Random" stories for no good reason.

5730254
Well, it's not really "for confusion's sake". I would never aim to confuse people. But I do think there are some legitimate issues with the title, especially since the story's theme and plot have changed so much (developed into something legitimately interesting) since we started. There's also the negative stigma which I've been trying to dodge since day one. Still hoping for the story to really grab the attention of new people.

Also, I'm having a real hard time getting a bead on the current reader base. I'm hoping to significantly expand this with new readers. I have a feeling a lot of the original fan base has left fimfiction or lost interest along the way. Almost nobody comments anymore, and publishing a chapter brings in maybe 2 or 3 new trackers.

Duvet's "Alicorn's Fate" has a good ring to it. Not sure if that's the best option, but something along those lines is what I'm exploring.

5728492 You know personally, I think we are going to have to change it. What to? No Idea. And again this is a better question maybe once we have published the end of the first act. ( at which point hopefully all or about all of the story will have been drafted)

But yes the title, as it stands now.... it is kind of.... infantile compared to what the story is. But I think we need to get a better consensus on what the story is. I would like pen stroke's input on this not only because I think one of the strengths of Past Sins is its title, but because he would of course be instrumental in promoting it, as he has been so far.

5761457
Agreed on all counts!

5730418 Alicorn's fate by itself seems too.. vague ( unless it is an addendum to " nightmare Nyx... but that involves finality. I would only lean for something like this if you decide there will be no sequels of similar scope in the future... and given the enormity of this enterprise I certainly don't blame you) It is also kind of grandiose.... Dunno. Again I think we will need to change it, but i think we can put this off a bit mostly because we all need to be further along in the story to see it from a " big picture " enough to grasp what is at stake.

I can think of the two most effective titles I have ever seen, which were both Movies that I knew I wanted to see the moment I heard the title, simply because of the title without knowing anything else about the film. These are P.T Anderson's There Will be Blood and Hal Ashby's Being There

There Will be Blood is a fantastic title in terms of sheer flashiness. But it is not a war movie or a gangster movie or anything of the sort. There is blood, but it is literally in the last scene and only in that scene. The film is however about conflict on many levels : agrarianism versus industrialism, religion vs secularism, local communitarianism versus transnational capitalism , manual labor versus technology, nature versus pollution, really the old versus the new in all its different facets. ( It also is probably the greatest American film of the last fifteen years, if you haven't seen it please do yourself an enormous favor and watch it.. several times) The film by the way, makes a point of not taking sides by making the leaders of both sides as unpleasant as possible( and yet the movie is enormously entertaining) the movie is the least preachy thing you will ever watch..to the point where it is kind of shocking, because after two and a half hours of rank amorality you kind of want to be preached at. The movie does not care who is right or wrong.. its focus is on the inevitability of conflict.... hence the title.

Hal Ashby's "Being There" is an even better title. In terms of its function it might be the best title I know of. It sounds "profound "( registered trademark)like the mantra of transcendental meditation guru. The Movie it turns out, is about an illiterate man who due to being in the right place at the right time, becomes the " son I never had" of a rich dying man who is one of the closest friends and advisors to the President of the United States. This makes him a celebrity, and his illiterate halting half sentences are praised as being the words of a profound sage who has emerged as the eminence griseof POTUS. But while all the talking heads and political gurus are parsing the wisdom of his utterances, they remain, in the end, the utterances of an illiterate gardener who believes the advertisements on tv are accurate depictions of real events. And so it is revealed that the title is no zen koan, but literally the simplest possible meaning of the term: by simply " being there" in the right place and the right time, completely by accident, the main character made his fortune. It is less " be here now" and more " showing up is 80% of life". And so the title becomes the embodiment of the film itself in two words, it sounds profound, but it turns out the simplest possible interpretation was the correct one in the end .

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Had a conversation with Orion a moment ago regarding the story's title. He asked me to describe the story in one sentence. No easy task, given the complexity of things. The story has two primary arcs... Nyx's personal arc, and Hyperion's arc as the story's main antagonist.

So I ended up coming up with two sentences. Here they are:

* A young alicorn must discover the secret of her own nature in order to stop the destruction of ponykind.
* An ancient, defeated adversary with a vendetta to annihilate ponykind awakens to reclaim his former glory.

Orion pointed out that the word "Emergence" fits both of these nicely. This could work well as either part of, or the whole title. I've been thinking the word 'alicorn' ought to be in the title. Definitely not 'Nyx' though, as putting the protagonist's name in the title of the story isn't often a good idea, especially when publishing in a community where said name already has a tremendous amount of negative stigma.

If the story's title were simply "Emergence", I think that would have a high chance of a positive reaction from people looking for something new to read. Combined with the cover art showing what at first glance is Nightmare Moon, that may also be a positive thing.

After that, it may be a good idea to rethink the short and long descriptions. This is what they currently look like:

How can Nyx resist her darkest temptations and overcome the greatest adversary of her life, all while the Great War against the zebras rages around her? What must she do to discover her virtue before all is lost?

The alicorn Nyx Sparkle, formerly Nightmare Moon, must confront her darkest temptations in the delicate balance between protecting the ponies she loves and losing her own identity. Nyx and her friends face a brutal, new threat to Equestria during the Great War against the zebras and uncover the sinister ambition of a powerful adversary that threatens ponies and zebras alike.

I can still give proper credit to Pen & Kkat as usual, but I think the less attention the story draws to FO:E and Nyx the better. The main thing to remember is that every time a chapter is published, a story spends some time on the front page of fimfiction. Brand new eyes see it listed, and whether the person decides to click on it or not depends solely on the title, cover art, and short description.

Feel free to weigh in what you think of "Emergence". If you have alternate ideas, please share those as well.

Good candidate for a new short description would be a blend of those two sentences:

A young alicorn must discover the secret of her own nature in order to stop the destruction of ponykind while an ancient adversary with a vendetta intends to reclaim his former glory.

I'll see if I can cook up something good for the long description.

5850757
+1 approval for 'Emergence'.

Here's the text I came up with for the long description. It barely fits in the story page before you have to click the "More" button. What do you think?

5851994 Awesome description but goddamn, that is a mighty bit much on the questions... also a vote of emergence though, maybe an add on for the word would also be nice

5852015
Might be best to tweak the final part of that description, yes. It's mostly just what came off the top of my head when considering the entire theme and plot of the story.

5852031 True that... Funny enough, I just recalled one of my own descriptions that's somewhat short but gets the point across...

5852044
Keep in mind too that this is the "long description". The short one appears at the top of the page when you're reading a chapter or when you're browsing stories.

A young alicorn must discover the secret of her own nature in order to stop the destruction of ponykind while an ancient adversary with a vendetta intends to reclaim his former glory.

That's pretty short, but it does the job describing this story at a glance.

[edit] I just updated the image. Tweaked the long description a bit to make it less wordy.

5852057 Eeyup, that short description pretty much describes the story alright

5850757 , I suppose if/when you do actually change the title, "Emergence" sounds pretty good.

5851994
Name is good. All those rhetorical questions are more than a touch pretentious, though.

5852398
Made some more changes. Orion and I sat down to talk it through how things could be worded better.

It's a good idea to ask questions in the story's description because it puts stuff in the potential reader's mind which creates a draw to getting the answers from the story. We've refined it down to just two questions as follows:

She was once the harbinger of nightmares, the bringer of eternal night. It has now been fifteen years since she was brought back to overthrow the royal sisters. Fifteen years since the mishap which gave Equestria a new ally rather than an adversary.
Now, with Equestria on the defending side of a prolonged war with the zebras, the mare who was once known as Nightmare Moon must walk the delicate balance between protecting the ponies she loves and losing her hard-fought identity.
Faced with a mysterious and brutal threat to Equestria, how will Nyx stand against a powerful new adversary who knows her better than she knows herself? What fate awaits her behind the dark secrets of Nightmare Moon?

This way, they are not rhetorical questions, but legitimate ones which you'd have to read the story to know the answer to.

5852419 Those questions sound much better although I am curious, have you ever thought of making the description from a first person narrative?

5852421

Hadn't considered that, no. Got an example?

5852442 Why in fact I have such an example of my own...

Five millennia ago, there was a race that thrived and walked on this world once. A race revered by many allies and feared by their enemies, they exuded an aura of unquestionable might and intellect wherever they traveled. This race came with many names from their allies and adversaries but to every creature that breathed, they were simply known as alicorns. We were a proud race, cultured in many ways from every corner of the young world.

Now? We were not only facing the near extinction of every creature that walked among us, we are now an endangered race. Thrown at all who walked the world itself, only a handful of people lived to tell the tale. I was just a simple alicorn who lived a wonderful life after struggling when my parents departed to war during my youth and now, I'm facing with the possibility of the end of the world. Gods, have mercy on our souls...

This from one of my OC's perspective but it should be a good example of a first person narrative

5850757

Positives : it is catchy. I mean i would probably click on a story entitled "emergence". It certainly catches the eye....

negative: Emergence of... what.... exactly??? I mean yes of a new threat, of Nyx's true nature... etc... I mean it is just.... eh.

I mean... it is way better than the current title I will give you that.

5852057

A young alicorn must discover the secret of her own nature in order to stop the destruction of ponykind while an ancient adversary with a vendetta intends to reclaim his former glory.

I don't like that you don't name her. I mean yes I know that that is purposeful to keep out the irrational tide of Nyx haters, but man i think the vague " oc young alicorn haters league" vastly outnumbers the Nyx haters. I mean people will think it is a red and black alicorn self insert Gary Stu or some shit. Either name her or commit full hog and don't even mention your main character is a non canon alicorn.

5852419

here is my edit

It has now been fifteen years since the bringer of eternal night was brought back to overthrow the royal sisters. Fifteen years since the mishap which gave Equestria a new ally rather than an adversary Equestria gained a new ally.

( mishap??? i mean yes there was an accident with the spell not completing But Nyx is not an ally because the spell did not complete, but because she chose to be good! kind of goes against the whole " choose who you want to be" ethos of Past Sins)

Now, with Equestria on the defending side facing invasion and likely defeat during a prolonged war of attrition with the zebras, the mare who was once known as Nightmare Moon must walk the delicate balance between protecting the ponies she loves and losing her hard-fought identity.

( The defending side of a war is usually the one with the advantage . you need to make this sound more hopeless)

Faced with a mysterious and brutal threat to Equestria, how will Nyx stand against a powerful new adversary who knows her better than she knows herself? What fate awaits her behind the dark secrets of Nightmare Moon?

try to reword that last question " the dark secrets of Nightmare Moon" sounds like it hews a little too close to Past SIns itself. It would make a Past Sins readers go " oh this again" it makes your story sound derivative when it is anything but.

5859493
I hadn't considered the "OC Alicorn Hater League". That's a fair point. I could technically replace 'alicorn' with 'mare' in the short description. Thoughts?

5859515

( mishap??? i mean yes there was an accident with the spell not completing But Nyx is not an ally because the spell did not complete, but because she chose to be good! kind of goes against the whole " choose who you want to be" ethos of Past Sins)

You're definitely right in this. Though stating the theme of Past Sins here in my story's description isn't really necessary. It's more about a brief, concise, statement of facts saying the most with the least possible amount of words and still being factually correct. It was a mishap, and it did lead (indirectly) to Equestria gaining an ally. If I delve into the nuances of the Past Sins theme in the description, how much would that inflate things or distract from the main point?

Having said that, your edit is also correct and concise, so that might be a better alternative. So basically it loses the focus on the fact that she could have been an adversary. Though that was already stated in the previous sentence. Mmm... Not bad.

The only problem is that "Fifteen years since Equestria gained a new ally." does not follow well after "It has now been fifteen years since she was brought back to overthrow the royal sisters."

I've patched it a bit by rewording the previous sentence as well.

The defending side of a war is usually the one with the advantage . you need to make this sound more hopeless)

Good point. Hmm...
>> Now, with Equestria struggling through a prolonged war with the zebras

Too simple? Thoughts?

try to reword that last question " the dark secrets of Nightmare Moon" sounds like it hews a little too close to Past SIns itself. It would make a Past Sins readers go " oh this again" it makes your story sound derivative when it is anything but.

True, there are factual correlations between Nyx's new struggle and her old struggle. But this question was not meant to refer to either of them.

The 'dark secrets' in this case are literally regarding the origins of the Nightmare, which at this point nobody in the story knows about other than Hyperion and I suppose Luna. Also, Nyx's problem due to being a maturing wild alicorn is in the forefront of the story's main plot. That is unrelated to her origin as the Nightmare of course.

One option might be to refer to the wild alicorns directly. That might actually spark some intrigue. "What are these wild alicorns? I have never heard of these." the reader might ask.

>> What fate awaits her behind the dark secrets of Nightmare Moon?
>> What fate awaits her behind the dark secrets of the wild alicorns?

Naturally, this would lead to a number of incorrect assumptions, because the reader is not going to guess what that is all about. The question is whether those assumptions are attractive or not. I'm not 100% convinced.

>>What fate awaits her behind the dark secrets of an alicorn's true nature?

That is also intriguing but more vague. It is less likely to produce an incorrect assumption. Thoughts?

Full text currently reads...

She was once the harbinger of nightmares, the bringer of eternal night. It has now been fifteen years since the failed plan to bring back Nightmare Moon and overthrow the royal sisters. Fifteen years since Equestria gained a new ally.

Now, with Equestria struggling through a prolonged war with the zebras, the mare who was once known as Nightmare Moon must walk the delicate balance between protecting the ponies she loves and losing her hard-fought identity.

Faced with a mysterious and brutal threat to Equestria, how will Nyx stand against a powerful new adversary who knows her better than she knows herself? What fate awaits her behind the dark secrets of an alicorn's true nature?

5859483

Well, I suppose that's good enough. Everyone seems to like it, which is actually fairly unexpected among the team. lol

Most story titles seem to be much more vague regarding the plot. The title doesn't provide the plot or even the full theme.

"Past Sins" -- vs -- "Nightmare Moon's Second Chance"

Stories like Hard Reset and Immortal Game provide a superficial vague hint at what is going on, but not nearly enough to really know until you dig into the description.

But that's the nature of titles. "Star Wars" hardly begins to describe the movie's plot. It just becomes an association later so people can refer to it easily. For certain, "Nightmare Nyx: Protector of Ponies" is not only a mouthful and hard to type, but it puts too much of the plot in the title and also triggers all the Nyx haters out there. It was, in hindsight, a very poor decision that probably cost me at least a dozen downvotes all by itself. Maybe twenty.

Then there's titles for epic stories. "Lord of the Rings" or "Malazan, Book of the Fallen". This, I wager, takes a fair bit more of an effort (or luck) to come up with.

Emergence, while somewhat plain, is intriguing. It builds curiosity. As you said... "Emergence of what, exactly? That's a question the story answers, and it's always a good idea to give the reader a small question their mind wants answered.

If there was a better title, it hasn't come up yet. Been thinking about it for a while now. I think this could work. There may not actually be an ideal title which would perfectly fit this story.

She was once the harbinger of nightmares, the bringer of eternal night. It has now been fifteen years since she was brought back to overthrow the royal sisters. Fifteen years since Equestria gained a new ally.
Now, with Equestria struggling through a prolonged war with the zebras, the mare who was once known as Nightmare Moon must walk the delicate balance between protecting the ponies she loves and losing her hard-fought identity.
Faced with a mysterious and brutal threat to Equestria, how will Nyx stand against a powerful new adversary who knows her better than she knows herself? What fate awaits her behind the dark secrets of an alicorn's true nature?

All right I accept it. I think that first sentence is a little more akward than the way I reedited it, but it certainly is no big deal. really like that you went with:" Alicorn's true nature" bit there at the end. that actually works better than any of the suggestions in this thread.

5859652
Yeah, I tweaked the 2nd sentence to say, "It has now been fifteen years since the failed plan to bring back Nightmare Moon and overthrow the royal sisters."

I think that reads much better than "brought back to overthrow".

So now, it's just a matter of updating the story title. If I recall, that just generates a new URL for the story, but the old one is still valid for anyone who has web links to it from elsewhere on the internet. For example, this still works:

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/219543/nitemare-nyx-protector-of-ponies

Last call though: Any better ideas than simply "Emergence"?

5859672 I would really love to have Pen stroke's opinion... more than anything so he can spread the word ( say there is a link to the story at the bottom of the first chapter of his latest nyx story... so it would be cool if he would change it to the new title once he approves it)

5861002 I'll try and get his attention. He's extremely terse and rare to return contact.

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Once more unto the breach, dear friends.

So, Seal tells me "Emergence" is a rather 'generic and bland'. Which is what I was afraid of... We talked via PM for a bit on fimfiction, and I asked if he had any better ideas.

Then I explained the rough plot enough for him to so he could refine the thought to something more appropriate.

I have to admit, he's better at this than I am. What do you think of these? Both seem like pretty good titles.

5875407 Hmm... each of those titles does hold merit though which one would be the best choice is rather difficult for me to decide...

5875453

At this time, I'm leaning toward a variation on his "Monsters" suggestion.

The idea here would be to consider the many different kinds of 'monsters' in the story. We have the monster Nyx would become if her transformation was left unchecked. We also have the monsters of the infected, and the horrific things they do. Then, there's Storm Shadow, and how he wants to stop the war and save ponykind at any costs, even if it means doing something horrible to achieve this. And then there's Hyperion, who outright wants to kill everyone. Even the fact that the ponies and zebras are trying to kill each other represents yet further types of monsters.

So many different kinds of monsters.

The Disparity of Monsters

It fits the overall theme of the story quite well, encompassing everything in a single concise phrase.

5875506 You have a good point there... It looks like I may be leaning towards that suggestion right now as well...

5875506
That would imply to me that some kind of psychological examination is the focus, or that the differences between kinds of monstrosity will be a significant theme.

5875533

I think (I hope) it would be self-evident as the story unfolds and it becomes obvious that a monster takes many different forms. We'll see monsters in the infected ponies in act one. And all through the story, we'll see the fear of what Nyx could become. The situation with Everfree will bring focus on the fact that new and more dangerous monsters are appearing. Storm already thinks he's a monster for what he's done. And it'll be pretty obvious that Hyperion is his own tier of monster. So while it's not stated outright, the subtext of the whole story ought to bring this through. It's the best option I've got so far. But I'll hold off renaming the story until we're ready to publish ch7. Just in case someone comes up with a better title.

5875506

The Disparity of Monsters

Not catchy. Sorry. I prefer Emergence. he disparity of monsters is a GREAT chapter title ( like for your climactic chapter)

Or you may even prefer naming the acts, in which case this may be a great title for the third act.

But " Emergence" catches the eye. The disparity of monsters does not.

Actually I would recommend MERGING THE TWO TITLES which would be a very old school way of announcing that what you are writing is a weighty epic. You are kind of already doing this with your present title... except it sucks because the title is hardly heavy enough. But merging these two titles would in fact be pretty weighty.

For an example of what I mean the full title of Moby Dick is " MOBY DICK, OR, THE WHALE"

similarly, a cool title may be :

" EMERGENCE, OR, THE DISPARITY OF MONSTERS" that gives you the best of both worlds, emergence is eye catching and draws attention while " the disparity of monsters" eliminates some of the vagueness of the one word title, hints at what particularly is emerging, and signifies to your audience that they are in for something rather more ambitious than the typical fan fic.

5875407 there are a LOT of great chapter titles in this post haha

5876256

The format with ",or," looks really weird to me. Wouldn't a colon be better?

Man, I hate this process. Everyone has vastly different views on what makes a good title.

Also, a lengthy title is hard to articulate.

5876677

The format with ",or," looks really weird to me. Wouldn't a colon be better?

haha! that shows a stylistic difference. Though you are engaged in writing an epic novel, you are by your own admission not a reader of doorstoppers, the colon is what would be used in a tv serial.

wheras I am thinking of examples like:

or

I like " or" not just because of the old timey charm of it. But because it also it seems that for me it is more flexible, a colon says " this OF THIS" ( that is "EMERGENCE: THE DISPARITY OF MONSTERS" tells me that the thing that is emerging is basically the disparity of the monsters). " or " seems more fluid, it is almost like you are working in a subtitle within the title which i like, because it hints to the underlying complexity of the piece.

As to how to refer to it that is simple, outside of the title page, when linking people to it or discussing it, you would simply refer to it as " Emergence".
The Disparity of Monsters would only exist on the title page, it is a subtitle really, almost the bridge between the short title emergence and the longer description on the landing page immeadiately below it.

I... suppose that makes sense. Though here's my question. How many fimfiction readers are familiar with this naming convention? Chances are high that in old-timey times, old-timey naming conventions were understood by the common person. Many things which were customary back then just seem awkward and bizarre by today's youth, especially. I'm not necessarily saying that this is a good thing. But it's a question worth considering.

Oh, and speaking of that particular old-timey style of titles, let's not forget our friend Charlie Darwin and his profoundly racist title for his best-known work:

5875407 , ... I'm kind of partial toward Emerging Eternity. That sounds simultaneously concise and ominous. Oooo. I like it.

5876256

I'm torn up by this...

You say it's not catchy, but Emergence is.
Other say the opposite.

How does one define "catchy"?
Emergence feels rather meh or plain. It's not terrible... Single word titles for elaborate stories do exist: "Divergent"

It's one of those titles which really doesn't say anything.

However, "The Disparity of Monsters" is a lot more vivid. I'm not sure if that means "catchy", but it does bear significant thematic synthesis with the entire story. And I think that gives this title "more points" than Emergence.

I'm not exactly sure when it's time to publish. I haven't got much of any feedback yet on the text, but if it turns out that there are a lot of fixes, it may be a couple more weeks. As it looks now, it seems pretty solid. I just need to make sure that the story's title is changed before publishing the next chapter.

5939350 I think we may be using the terms differently. There may be some confusion between "catchy " and resonance.

BY resonance I mean relevant to the central theme of the stories ( and honestly i don't think the disparity of monsters is what this story is about. If I remember correctly the one sentence " goal " of this story was " What would it mean for Nyx to truly live out the vow that she pledged to Luna and Celestia in Past Sins) But again the disparity of monsters is a great chapter title, but WILL NOT catch the eye of a person who is not familiar with the story. BY catchy i literally meant catches the eye. Like a lure. It draws the attention.

And of course what I say is only my opinion, hardly some kind of mandate. If other's disagree you should of course weigh that as well.