Hey guys,

I really like this group since everyone is enthusiastic about EoP. Also, posting a discussion in EoP's comments probably would get no discussion. So before we start, I'd like to say I haven't read any Petra drafts since Skirts isn't going forward with them and he said the fourth rewrite is going to be "much" different. Lets start.

What does Harmony even have left to learn from Rainbow Dash, Rarity and Twilight and how would that help her "restore" some of ponydom's legacy in the wasteland? So what can Harmony learn from pre-cataclysm and apply to post-cataclysm? Essentially, where do you think the story is going and how do you think it will end.

I have a predictable idea or two.

1.) Harmony learns all of the mane six's quality's from the past, which Scootaloo uses to forms a group involving Brucie, Pitt, some dogs, Gilda, goblins, maybe the Ursa Major in the Everbriar and some more creatures from here and there and starts a new, harmonious community in the wasteland.

So what can Harmony even learn about loyalty and generosity? I think Scootaloo could learn to be a better friend to her wasteland buddies with those characteristics in mind, but going back in time and being tested in those directions seems pretty redundant after Dredgemane. Every time Scoots goes back in time, she is insanely generous and loyal. I think the only time she stopped being so, once she got the hang of it, was late in the Dredgemane arc when she flew off frustrated. Does she need an explicit experience with RD and Rarity to learn loyalty and generosity for wasteland purposes to grow towards this ending?

2.) After learning all of the mane six's quality's from the past and embodying them, and maybe getting their ashes in a ritualistic circle that may or may not involve the Elements of Harmony, all of which are attained through some epic adventures, some magic happens and some Onyx Eclipse reversal happens. Probably the most predicable idea, and Skirts doesn't do predictable endings, so no dice.

3.) Twilights Arc comes last and thats when Scoots finally gets to chat with Celestia. Maybe she explodes during the chat like in BP. Any thoughts on what happens then? A read a comment saying that everything might go full circle and Harmony causes the cataclysm somehow. Tinfoil anyone?

Now for a little ranting.

Am I the only one frustrated that after half a million words, we still have little idea what caused the cataclysm, what happened to Celestia and Luna and why Consus died? We know Epona's exodus was caused by grief of Consus's death and there is some kind of cosmic anomaly going on, but that not really much to play with since its all so vague, to me at least. BP is 100k words less than EoP pre-petra and it was all resolved by then. EoP doesn't even seem halfway done. Don't get me wrong, I love SS&E's experience-paced stories, but this seems to be going too slow even for him.

I think I'll just start with the bit about RD, since I've put the most thought into that, as have most people I would assume.

I have a few theories about it, and only a couple of them actually have all that much to do with loyalty.
My main two are as follows:
1) my favorite is that it's less about showing Harmony things about loyalty - as you've said, she displays that particular trait consistently - and more about giving Scootaloo a feeling of closure. Letting her see RD as not just some particularly awesome figure, but as an actual pony with issues and such, and is no less awesome for them.
I fee this will come up regardless of the whether or not it's the main theme though.

2) if it is about the concept of loyalty, it'll be showing Harmony the depths of it. So far, she's shown a fairly basic loyalty: sticking by something no matter what. I think if it's the theme then RD'll either a greater aspect of it, whether it be a conflict of loyalties of sorts or something else.

For your point (1), I don't really agree with Scootaloo forming a community in the wastes. It just doesn't...feel right to me. I think she'll have an influence more like what she does in the past, and what the mane 6 we've seen so far have done for her. Namely, inspiring by example. She won't so much create a group, but show the benefits of living in harmony with others. This will lead to the other groups in the waste to come together on their own. A slow, painful (likely literally) process to be sure, but a step in the right direction.

And for your rant, I offer a counter rant!

Frankly, what caused the cataclysm isn't that important to the story. I know I'll be happy with the story if that aspect is just left as an unknown, and all this simply makes it easier for Scoots to cope with her situation.

Is that preferable? BUCK no! But I'll love the story regardless because it's less about the end goal, and more about the characters, and what they do. The parts I find most fascinating are not Harmony in the past trying to right the wrongs and maybe prevent the cataclysm. Rather, I most enjoy Scootaloo in the wasteland. How she's adapted and persevered. What has kept her together through the isolation and trauma.

It's been a while since I've read EoP (tried to re-read it, but knowing how things turned out meant I could barely hold myself together through the intro dream ) so I may be remembering things incorrectly, but I think there was something hinting at Epona herself dying. Or I may just be going Pinkemena-levels of crazy

Also, I'd recommend reading at least the very end of the Kaizo edition, especially if it's being changed drastically. (I haven't read the other yet myself)
The way Harmony appears by RD is priceless

Letting her see RD as not just some particularly awesome figure, but as an actual pony with issues and such, and is no less awesome for them.

I fee this will come up regardless of the whether or not it's the main theme though.

Agreed. And yeah I don't think that will be the main theme. Maybe it will be shown through RD respecting Harmony for all of the strengths of here Entropian skin.

2) if it is about the concept of loyalty, it'll be showing Harmony the depths of it. So far, she's shown a fairly basic loyalty: sticking by something no matter what. I think if it's the theme then RD'll either a greater aspect of it, whether it be a conflict of loyalties of sorts or something else.

For your point (1), I don't really agree with Scootaloo forming a community in the wastes. It just doesn't...feel right to me. I think she'll have an influence more like what she does in the past, and what the mane 6 we've seen so far have done for her. Namely, inspiring by example. She won't so much create a group, but show the benefits of living in harmony with others. This will lead to the other groups in the waste to come together on their own. A slow, painful (likely literally) process to be sure, but a step in the right direction.

Yeah, I think you're pretty spot on with depth in loyalty, that's a given. Conflicting loyalties too since there is that quote from the 6th part of the kaizo edition in RoboRed's comment of all about being loyal to yourself first. I think conflicting loyalties was explored quite a bit in Dredgemane with Harmony siding with Haymane or Pinkie and the Bivs. Maybe it will be more explicit.

I don't sit too well with the "community in the wastes" idea either, but I'm just throwing darts in the dark because it has been 500k words and we still don't have much to go on.

Frankly, what caused the cataclysm isn't that important to the story. I know I'll be happy with the story if that aspect is just left as an unknown, and all this simply makes it easier for Scoots to cope with her situation.

Is that preferable? BUCK no! But I'll love the story regardless because it's less about the end goal, and more about the characters, and what they do. The parts I find most fascinating are not Harmony in the past trying to right the wrongs and maybe prevent the cataclysm. Rather, I most enjoy Scootaloo in the wasteland. How she's adapted and persevered. What has kept her together through the isolation and trauma.

I really enjoy Skirts' legendy, cosmic stuff with the goddesses and deity back stories. In the universe he illustrates, it feels really epic and zelda-like. To me, its like the first two minutes of this video. It just plays out really amazingly in my head once he builds the world up, but that's just me getting a nostalgia boost I guess.

I enjoy the dialogue the most, especially Harmony's conversations with the main six and future spike. The characterization there is amazing. Scootaloo in the wasteland and her adventure's, depth and survival is definitely a blast too. I don't know if much more of it will fit nicely into future arcs though, since Fluttershy's arc kinda covered it.

I disagree that the cause of the cataclysm isn't important to the story. To find the cause of the cataclysm and to find healing in the past are Scootaloo's main reasons for going back. I acknowledge your point though, this is a Skirtsian epic and its all about the journey (characterizations, dynamics, adventures, fights, ect) and not the destination, and I am all for that. I'm just saying that by half a million words, it would certainly be nice to have more progress by now. If, say one day EoP is all done and its a million words, their would be massive info dumps in the second 500k and that would be meh. And idk, but I hope the Petra arc moves more towards elaborating on the causes of the cataclysm, but that's just me being impatient and kinda dissatisfied with the plot progression. In terms of arcs, maybe AJ, FS and PP are more focused on healing and RD, Rarity and TS are more focused on causes of the cataclysm.

Epona herself dying

Idk. I think she just ran away into the cosmos, grieving and the stars are her tears.

Also, I'd recommend reading at least the very end of the Kaizo edition, especially if it's being changed drastically. (I haven't read the other yet myself)

The way Harmony appears by RD is priceless

Awesome! Where should I start though? Which part and what place should I start in? Tell me what to Ctrl-F if its not the top lol its a lot of words.
Edit: I found it and it was epic! I'de love to see how Harmony gets in better graces with RD after that.

The tone of the story is such that I believe that she will succeed at bringing the sun and moon back, but it's going to have to come at the cost of some sacrifice (up to and including potentially the sacrifice of herself).

When it comes to Petra, SS&E has said it'll still follow the basic premise of the previous Petra's, but some major aspects will change, primarily those involving the cross over with Red Wings (assuming Red Wings doesn't just continue on). When it comes to RD though, I'd agree that I think that her focus is going to be more on closure than seeking loyalty, but I also believe she'll come to understand loyalty in the process.

On your comment of the length with so little resolved: it's a matter of scale. BP was designed to be a shorter story than EOP, and one that only contains a single arc. Consider that along with the overarching plot, EOP contains self contained plotlines within each arc as well. Essentially, it's designed to be a collection of smaller stories woven together to also form the larger story. Considering it's probably not even half done, I'm not too disappointed at what hasn't been revealed yet (although I would love to know with greater certainty where it is going hehe).

The tone of the story is such that I believe that she will succeed at bringing the sun and moon back, but it's going to have to come at the cost of some sacrifice (up to and including potentially the sacrifice of herself).

I wouldn't use the tone of the story as an indicator for much. Not a good reason, but I remember when I read BP and thought this passage in Ch XIV was a guarantee that things would end happier than they did.

“You will tell us about it, someday, though?” Melodia said with a gentle, hopeful smile. “When this whole 'curse' of yours is done with, won't you come and see us, Miss Heartstrings?”

“Hmmm, believe me...” I gazed at the four of them as they looked back at me. I lifted the canteen to my lips and closed my eyes. If my voice had a low tone to it, there was nothing I could do to stop it at the time. “I wouldn't even think of disappointing you.”

I sipped a gulp of water. From the far end of the room, the last string of the Nightbringer finally stopped vibrating. My ears twitched. I finished my drink, exhaled, and opened my eyes. Everypony was gone.

But yeah, with as little as we have to make conclusions off of, I agree, the tone of EoP definitely hints at her success at bringing the sun and moon back, somehow.

When it comes to Petra, SS&E has said it'll still follow the basic premise of the previous Petra's, but some major aspects will change, primarily those involving the cross over with Red Wings (assuming Red Wings doesn't just continue on). When it comes to RD though, I'd agree that I think that her focus is going to be more on closure than seeking loyalty, but I also believe she'll come to understand loyalty in the process.

Agreed. Since we got RD and Scoots, closure is going to be a major focus. After all, that's probably one of Spike's reasons for suggesting Scoots visit RD before Pinkie. I've skimmed through some of the Petra arc kaizo edition and read much of parts 6 and 7 in the last few hours, and I don't see the story in any form without closure and loyalty as a huge focus.

On your comment of the length with so little resolved: it's a matter of scale. BP was designed to be a shorter story than EOP, and one that only contains a single arc. Consider that along with the overarching plot, EOP contains self contained plotlines within each arc as well. Essentially, it's designed to be a collection of smaller stories woven together to also form the larger story. Considering it's probably not even half done, I'm not too disappointed at what hasn't been revealed yet (although I would love to know with greater certainty where it is going hehe).

Stories with greater scale have been told in shorter lengths. EoP is certainly larger in scale and length than BP, but at times I feel that lots of parts and emphasis here and there isn't necessary. Sometimes I think parts are so redundant its insulting, but hey, that's just me and that's just Skirt's "experience-paced" style. I guess I am not really too satisfied with the huge length of EoP, but I do like its scale.

However, I would not say their structure is very different. Both resemble a miniseries of sorts. I wouldn't say that BP "only contained a single arc". I find its formatting much more like EoP, except where chapters are often their own arcs forming that "collection of smaller stories woven together to also form the larger story". Examples of separate mini-arcs include building a cabin with AJ, rescuing scoots, bridging Twilight and Moondancer, the Morning Dew fiasco, granite shuffle, dealing with snip's family, ect. These were all side obstacles, which often tied in with each other, that Lyra chose to face, much like the side obstacles Scoots chooses to face in Dredgemane or with FS or AJ. Scoot's foalhood, an arc in its own right, is tied into Harmony's adventures with both FS and RD.

For both Lyra and Scoots, the obstacles are out of the way, and vaguely related to the overall plot at first glance, but by the end, they learn something from it and develop in one way or another.

And yeah, you're right about EoP probably not even being half done. Sometime I think Skirt's time might be better off spent on his newer ideas, which he has many of. Its an opportunity cost of sorts since he could probably do 3-4 stories or a larger one in the time it would take to redo Petra for the 4th time. How much new stuff would we get in the new Petra vs new stuff in Skirt's new stories? Even though I love EoP to death, I'de argue for the new stories out of sheer novelty and faith in Skirts to produce something great.

2608730 but don't you see that slowness is whats keeping you locked in wait skirts is slowly dragging you along your desire no your hunger to know whats happened keeps you going combine that with the glories picture he paints and you have one of the god tear Fics obviously more goes into but those are the two direct items for your comment as to why its going so slow. honestly i was thinking about peeking around his other series hes been focusing on but i'm not sure yet.

4911684

It's been about 2 years since I read the story, so I wouldn't say I'm "dragged in"

Skirts will write awesome shit no matter what – EoP or not – writing is his freaking passion. If he doesn't want to finish EoP, or like he said in a recent podcast with Seattle's Angels, make a "Volume 2", I don't mind – I'm sure he'll write something awesome regardless. He doesn't owe anyone the end of the story or owe anyone to write awesome stuff, but I have faith he will, EoP or not.

After all, passion often makes for great writing and ideas, so it's best that he follows whatever he wants to do. The guy currently writes different 3 daily updated stories and still cranks out oneshots here and there. He's busy.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure most of his EoP "stock of ideas" that he wanted to put into the last half or so of the story have already been written into the other stories he wrote after putting EoP on haitus. Some went into Background Pony, others into this or that oneshot and Austraeoh. So in a way, if I every got around to reading Austraeoh and it's many sequels, I think I would have read most of the rest of the original EoP in terms of ideas.

So yeah, if you want more EoP, go get it.

4912452 mmmmm maybe I'd personally still like to see EoP finished at the very least for a kind of closure, but yea he's an awesome writer. Also yes it's been two years but your still here you still have a hope that he'll finish it,is my point.

4912452 well maybe not hope exactly more accurately I'd saw look forward to the possibility of it.