God Fucking Damnit Dark Souls 3! · 3:10am May 29th, 2019
I have talked about the fact that I dislike this game... so much, so many times, but genuine question to you all.
How is Lothric a lord of cinder? I'm actually serious here. After all, the requirements for being a lord of cinder are
1) Have lit the first flame.
That's it. That's literally the one requirement. So, Lothric, what does your lore say?
1)I chose not to light the flame.
...
This wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't for Lothric, and all of Lothric Castle honestly, having a very, VERY poor place in narrative structure. After all, in the first act of the game you come to, admittedly, Lothric, where you find Vort of the Boreal Valley. He was a minion of Pontiff Sullivan, who was powerful enough to bend the Lothric family to his will through his machinations, and we'll come back to fight The Dancer, another of his minions.
We move on towards a third act as we go through the more rundown areas of the world, continuing to hear about Aldritch and the Pontiff with things like the Deacons of the Deep, while expanding on more solo parts of the world with Farron Keep. Act two ends with us arriving at the Boreal Valley, where all of these places converge because much of what may appear to be optional actually allows you into here.
Here is also where many NPC questlines end. We have: Anri, no matter what, Siri, the witch in the dungeon, Greyrat, and if we count the Profane Capital, which is a miniscule branch off of Irithyll dungeon, Siegvard. Hell, you meet up with Siegvard TWICE throughout this section of the game.
Anyways, you kill the Pontiff, but you know he is not the real evil. He is the second in command and just a warmup for what lies above. The GOD EATER/SLAYER Aldritch. His magic is unmatched by any in the Kingdom. He brought ruin to so many. He had a straight up CULT worshiping him. You even ascend back to the literal most iconic place of Dark Souls 1: Anor Londo. LAND OF THE GODS! You go to the same chamber where so many people never came back from, having gone hollow in their own playthroughs versus Ornstein and Smough.
Now, I have a lot of issues with a lot of this honestly. The fact that for Anri you have to kill him twice (and they still goes mad), the lore stuff... Wow does it make a billion versions of no sense for Anor Londo to be here, how it was taken, how it was condensed... Just wow. However, you know what, I maybe would have shrugged that off if indeed walking through that fog gate, with no cutscene, was the final Lord of Cinder. The second to last bossfight of the game. I would have understood the need for the imagery and symbolism.
But he's not. You kill him and are immediately warped back to the high wall of Lothric. It isn't even explained other than the old bitch that was there dragged you back suddenly. Then she dies and you go straight into a SECOND BOSS FIGHT, and then you go onto Lothric Castle.
But hey, maybe they could really make this area unique. Make it so that while Aldritch ran rampant amongst the rest of the world, the question of the prince's decision would shape and form and make Lothric castle something truly memorable in the game.
Um, er, you fight knights you've seen before in the game, just with more health and damage, you, uh, get another poison swamp that has nothing to do with the prince, just his crazy father, and the knights hate each other. That last one sounds like it has something to do with Lothric but it's actually a religious dispute that Lothric doesn't give a fuck about.
No, instead the part that actually connects to Lothric is the grand archive where he studied the first flame and decided "Nope. Not gonna do it." and thus, you know, didn't become a Lord of Cinder. So... for the contingency plan, why are they one of the ones that have to die? If it's just that you need some extra power to trigger the flame, how about the dozen or so extra bosses that we killed? WHY NOT USE THEIR POWER!? OR OUR OWN!? WHY DID WE HAVE LOTHRIC DESTROY THE NARRATIVE FLOW FOR A PLOTHOLE!?
I love all the "From-verse" games. My understanding is the "Soul" of the person is what makes them a lord, not the final action. True, Lothric never kindled the flame, but his "Soul" stated it to be his destiny. Hence the final contingency plan of the Ashen-one.
5066194 So, this is interesting to me, because it is a drastically different interpretation of the lore to what I have, and that's fine. I cannot say you're objectively wrong, but I will try to lay down why I don't believe pre-destination works here.
1. I want to acknowledge that the DS series does a lot with prophecy. Every game has it. You are theoretically the chosen something... but then that's usually subverted. YOU ARE THE CHOSEN UNDEAD!... but so is this crestfallen knight... because every undead who makes it to Lordran (since they all start in the Undead Asylum theoretically) qualifies for the prophecy. So are all of these theoretically destined to light the fire? Sure, but most don't. And because they don't, they don't qualify for the prophecy anymore. They don't fight for the Lord Souls, don't get to the Kiln, and don't beat Gwyn.
2. The Kiln has always needed strength. In fact, in DS 3, if you aren't strong enough and get there you just burn away. Lothric isn't a very strong person though. He is weakened by his curse, has next to no physical strength, and spell for spell, minus the spells given to him by his bond with his brother, as the Crystal Sage. Without a proper link to the flame, unless we truly want to say he was linked to the fire at birth which has its own problems, he would not survive the process. And Lorian doesn't count, as Lorian is not a Lord of Cinder, not truly one and the same in soul with his brother since you get both souls at the end of it. Not one.
Those are the big ones I want to comment on for this debate. Again, they are my interpretations, but I am trying to go off of what we do have as objective fact from the game. And... even if there was objective fact, I brought up the narrative problems for a reason, and they wouldn't be fixed by this. In my opinion, if you wanted a better narrative way to do this, it would be to shock the player by opening the door to Smough and Ornstein's room and having Lorian and Lothric there. Lothric says he's there because he does not want the flame done and, even if it means his father and baby brother will be devoured by a monster, let Aldritch into his castle. Not that you will get to the castle, for your journey ends now, but the one who never took the throne of Cinder. Then, he dies, you get what you need to enter the castle from his corpse, and you already have a pretty good idea as to where you need to go instead of just getting warped to the beginning.
Also, my thoughts of the FromSouls games: DS 1: Great story, ooookay game that dies in the second half. DS 2: Good Story, Good game, though not without its rough parts (and I only mean the Scholar of the First Sin version, as I never played the original) DS 3: Fanfic Story, Gameplay that is trying to be Bloodborne in DS and thus is bad, which is ironic because: Bloodborne: AMAZING GA- wait, there's a coherent story? Neat.
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Admittedly it's been a while since I played the game, but I am fairly sure it's stated that Lothric was groomed from birth to kindle the flame. And as for the survival part... No one survived. The reason the other Lords of Cinder are around is that the world basically said "Wait? No one is kindling the flame? Bring back the old ones!" whereupon those who had previously been BURNT ALIVE said "Aw hell naw! You got any idea how much that sucks? And now you want me to do it again?!" whereupon the world responded with the ashen ones. One for each lord. Anri for Aldrich, Siegmyer for Yorm, and Hawkwood for the Abyss Watchers. And that presumably leaves yourself for Lothric.
5066225 *eye twitches at anything related to the Game Theory episodes on Dark Souls 3* Anyways, that inherently assumes we meet every other Lord of Cinder. That none reached their targets beforehand, died, went 'hollow' (never fucking explained for characters like Anri and Horace... Btw, Horace is technically an Unkindled, so which Lord is he linked to? Ludleth? If it's 1:1 he presents an issue), or anything of that kind. In fact, if we go off of how many cycles were supposedly had of the flame from Dark Souls 2, which they do want to claim is still canon to this game, there should be a LOT of other Unkindled, or Lords of Cinder.
As for whether or not Lothric was able to light the fire... Well, it's a difference between attempting to get something ready and succeeding. You can take a dog off the street and groom it, dress it up, maybe even teach it a couple tricks, but if the dog doesn't have the strength, speed, stamina, or temperament than your grooming will not make him a contest worthy dog. It can be easily interpreted that this happened with Lothric. The curse made him so sickly and weak that for much of his life he could only somewhat use magic and could never grow strong physically. He is small, frail, with little in the way of stamina and personal strength. Heck, with how much damage Lorian took in trying to eat some of the curse, we could infer that part of why Lothric is even as strong as he is now is because he finally isn't dying from within.
And we get... Still pretty close to the Crystal Sage in abilities. That's the big point: We see the results, and the results aren't impressive as far as whether he should or should not be capable of lighting the flame. He would NEVER be able to pass the trials set before an undead in any of the three games, and thus would never have made it to the kiln. The minute he was cursed was the minute any pre-destined hope of him being one for the pyre was gone. He simply would never have the personal strength for it.
And that's still ignoring the fact that he never did get linked to the fire in anyway. He still never even attempted to light it, so he wouldn't even qualify as an Unkindled, let alone a Lord of Cinder.
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Which in a round-about way leads back into a subversion (of the subversion) of predestination. The Ashen ones are connected to the lords, and the lords are connected to the flame (via SOUL).
Then the DLC happens and my brain goes "oooooohhhhhh Pretty".
5066231 But as I pointed out, and will to you too... Who is Horace linked to? He's Unkindled, just like Anri, and goes Hollow just like Anri can. Is he linked to Ludleth? He has almost an identical history to Anri, so that can't be right. It also means that we meet literally every Ashen one out there, which seems highly improbably with how many generations there have been, especially if you include Dark Souls 2.
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I concede to the point of Horace (as well as unseen Ash). I will have to replay but I think that the Slave-Knight of the DLC isn't Ash either.
my own game list is ridicules with NIOH sitting in the ps4 tray right now.
I am sorry if I didn't say this first but, I can see your point in all of your arguments.
Just a thought. Which ending would you consider the "CANON". If you are supposed to be going for "Usurp the Fire" then maybe whatever force that brought you all back (Ash and Old Lords), then it may be trying to get rid of all the souls connected to the Flame Period. Just a passing thought.
5066245 Sorry if I came off hostile. I'm trying to work on that. As for me, I wait for another game to come out for which to be canon, otherwise... it doesn't matter. Admittedly, if this is the last game, than literally any of the endings where you end the cycles is canon. However, much like why I would claim you're tied to Ludleth if anyone (as one of the many people he ate), it is a choose your own adventure sort of story in the end. How do you want it to end? With the fire gone and no true leader? With a wisened woman burdened with knowledge as the leader? With the town of Londor as the leader and you at the head? Or do you think we are not yet ready to be led into a new land and thus continue the fire? Because of how misguided and troubled the story, characters, and gameplay of DS 3 is, it's the only one where I repeat the cycle, because that is acknowledging that something went wrong, and that we are not ready for the future.
And unfortunately, while I have not played Sekiro, much of what I have seen of it makes me think that that choice was the correct one.
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So far Sekiro is amazing. As for if you came off as hostile or not... I have (on again, off again) insomnia. It was 2:30 in the morning for me when I last popped in and I sometimes have trouble with social cues. I am working on it. I do like the way that you backed up your thoughts and I have enjoyed your stories for a while.