Sweetie Belle Talks About Groups for More Than 1000 Words... · 5:46am Oct 10th, 2016
Sweetie Belle here, and I'm gonna talk about groups! Specifically, I'm gonna talk about some of the problems I see with them, and ways that they could be fixed, and then I'll go into other neat stuff on my wishlist for groups. Of course, it'd take knighty or Xaquseg to actually do any of these, and I'm pretty sure they are busy with other things.
If anypony on the staff does look at this list, they'll probably say that most of it is more trouble than it's worth, or something like that. This is also very long, so I expect most of you will just skip reading it. But that's okay. I still feel like talking about it!
First off, it can be really hard to find fimfiction groups. It's really easy to create them, and it's also easy for them to get lost in obscurity.
Part of the problem is that there really are only a few ways to find a group.
One is by word of mouth. Some groups let you advertise others, and some have links to associated groups.
Other then this, though, the only ways to find a group would be:
a) If it's on the Trending Groups list.
b) Browsing through the (thousands!) of groups by hitting browse.
c) Doing a search.
As useful as the trending groups is, groups fall off it pretty quick. Browsing is nearly useless, as there are too many to wade through, and there isn't any sort of description in the list other than the group name. And searching is pretty limited, too, since it only searches the group name!
So there aren't really that many good ways to find groups. How do we fix this?
One thing we could do is add a group description that shows when browsing through groups, and is searched when looking for groups. You could also add group tags that classify what type of group it is, and make the search more like fanfiction searches. Than make the "browse" option more like browsing fanfiction as well! I'd love to be able to browse through groups by category. It'd be fun!
Another issue I see with groups is what I'm gonna call noise. If you subscribe to enough groups, it's very hard to keep track of what's going on with all of them. A few groups that have lots of threads will make it so the others threads just sort of fall off our feed. You can turn off notifications on a group, but that doesn't really help that much. I've left at least one group because of this.
A large part of this is that the dashboard is pretty basic. It shows the last 35 threads, period. And it's the last 35 threads in all your groups, even ones you turned off notifications for.
So how about an option to make threads not show up on the dashboard for individual groups? Maybe you want to be a member, but only want to see the threads when you go to that group. There could even be a dropdown at the top of the list to filter it, going from all groups to one, or even by category. And an option to show only the groups you are an admin in or a contributor would help admins a lot.
Some back/forward buttons, so you can go back a little further in the list of threads would also help. It'd be nice to be able to check on a thread from yesterday easily, and some days, 35 threads aren't many, especially if there's some spamming going on.
For that matter, why not be able to customize how many threads are shown on that view?
Now, let's talk about the dead group problem. I said there are a whole lotta groups. Browsing all groups shows 50 per page, and there are 216 pages. So, it's somewhere between 10750-10800 groups on fimfiction, depending on how many are on that last page. That's pretty ridiculous. And most of them are dead.
In fact, actually, pages 75+ are all groups with less than 25 members. Tiny groups abound! Can you imagine trying to find a group in there, especially with the issues I mentioned in organization?
Now, figure that most new groups are set up by somepony that doesn't know much about adminning, so they never set anypony else as an admin. Odds are that they aren't on fimfiction a year or two later, so you are left with an abandoned group. And the only way to bring in a new admin is staff intervention.
Honestly, I bet if most of the groups that haven't had activity in more than a year with all their admins gone or banned were just deleted, knighty's databases would run a lot better, even if roleplaying were allowed again. I wouldn't want all of 'em deleted, mind, since it's still interesting to look through the old rp groups threads.
A lot of them wouldn't be missed, though.
What could we do about groups that still have members using them, but no admins, though? Well, I have a few ideas.
One would be to automatically check what groups have all the admins either banned or gone for, say, more than half a year. Run this like once a month or something, then add admin rights to someone who is active in the group. You could go by longest term in the group, most groups already adminned, or something like that. Then send them a notification saying that it happened, so they don't miss it.
Another way to do it would be have a form you fill out asking for adminship of a group that automatically checks the same things I just mentioned, then grants admin rights or denies it. If we really wanted to get fancy, maybe it generates a voting thread on the group, and the members vote for a new admin. We could totally use the ability to make polls in groups anyways.
Something should be done, though. Groups end up getting recreated because no one ever gets anywhere with trying to get somebody to give someone in them admin rights (Like the Pinkie Pie group and the Applejack group.). This problem is honestly one of the reasons why I have admin rights in so many groups. I want to make sure they don't die!
One of the other things that complicates things there is that fimfiction makes the group founder the head admin as well, and makes it so they can't be removed as admin and can delete the group.
The trouble here is that if the founder goes missing or is banned, anyone now leading the group can be removed by any other admin, which means you really have to be careful who you add. What we really need is a way for the founder to pass the "head admin" abilities to someone else, and/or a way for the other admins to pick a new head admin.
That was most of my rants about big issues! So let's talk about features I'd like to see.
Subforums! For a big group, it'd be nice to be able to subdivide it so you had areas for talking about particular subjects. What this would be really useful for is things like an Announcement subforum, that only admins and contributors can post in, Contest subforums, a private admin subforum that's invisible, and things like that.
Let's add stuff to BBCode while we are at it! I'd like to be able to embed videos from sites other than youtube (dailymotion?), have lists or bullet points in posts, have "code" tags that do a quote box that keeps formatting and has a scroll box if the text in it is too large, and tables. Actually, if you look at other places that do bbcode, some of 'em already have those tags.
How about some better admin controls? I'd like some of the control I've seen in forums offsite. Things like being able to merge threads and split them. Being able to edit other members posts if you are an admin, with something on the bottom showing that you edited it and why. (For example, editing the initial rule post on a rule thread that was posted three years ago by a long gone admin…)
It's be nice if there was a way to set for somepony to be banned for a day or a week. Right now, you just hafta remember, and sometimes somepony may end up accidentally permabanned. Having something that keeps track of bans, and why members were banned would be really useful, too.
I mentioned poll threads. I've seen those in other forums, and they are pretty neat. You've got a few options at the top anypony can vote for, and it'll show the current results. And if we don't get the subforums, how about being able to set threads so they can only be posted to by admins and contributors? Closest we have right now is admins unlocking a thread, quickly typing a new post, then relocking it and hoping nopony else posts in the thread in the meantime.
Folders could use some work. Why not give contributors the right to delete stories from folders, or at least have that as an option? And I'd like to be able to take a story in one folder and put it in three others without generating a notification.
In fact, let's expand on that. You should only get a notification if a story was just added to the group, not for every folder it was put in. Sometimes that's a half dozen notifications!
You know, how about a thread preview button? I hafta work around this all the time. Sometimes, when I'm making a thread, I'll paste the text of it into a new reply on another thread just so I can hit preview and see how it looks. It's something that obviously should be there. (Of course, you should be able to preview pm's, too, but that's another topic. I could do a whole post about the pm system…)
This might be silly, but why is it "folders" for groups, but "bookshelves" for users? Seems to me like we've got two different implementations of the same thing going on here. Maybe folders should just be group bookshelves.
Here's another silly request. How about the ability to choose whether the group icon appears over the banner in group options? Sometimes the banner'd look a lot better without it.
I'm sure I could think of more, but that's probably enough from me on the subject right now. This is already at the point that if it had something to do with ponies, I could post it as a story.
Now, though, I'd like to hear your opinions. Are there other problems you've seen that you have ideas about relating to groups? Do you have other suggestions for things that should be done? I'm Sweetie Belle, and I look forward to hearing from you! 
With apologies to Dr. Wolf...
I'm not in many groops but...well, you make some very valid points...May I share some thoughts (please)?
Agreed!
Agreed!
A separate feed list for groups and/or a single notification with a small list underneath for each action would be nice...r.
I believe this will take quite a lot of staff and I'm not sure FimFiction has the horsepower. Therefore, your following suggestion...
...may work out better.
Oh, I'd like to see this in the group I'm in!
Agreed.
I have a feeling that outside-video is denied due to the fact some may post certain NSFW videos that seem harmless from those sites...while YouTube does have some strictness about content uploaded. They do have that delete-first verify later policy...
I would agree to the tables, list and other BBCode functions though.
No admin experience, sorry about that but I think the editing part is a good feature to add.
I've never been banned before (
) but aren't banned members allowed to PM the admin? Not saying this isn't a useful function, it's just that a permaban may be a little less easy...
This would be useful with your admin voting system as stated somewhere above...
Agreed!
I've never made a thread before, but I can see the difficulty. I guess I agree? It makes sense to have one there too. I just figured it was.
It's just a naming thing, right? Ah, I can deal with it for awhile
I have a feeling forums & groups are the way they are because the site is made like so. Knighty probably coded it at the most convenience for making a fiction-focused site and the forums/groups were just a little side bonus. Also I don't know coding, but I have a feeling it would be rather difficult to implement a whole new fourm/group system without probably deleting every story in each group's folder and the likes; perhaps in the future though!
However, looking back above I agree to almost all your points. Well done, Sweetie Belle
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Of course!
It kinda feels like it was implemented, then nopony ever went back to to refine things, at least, not much, really.
I was hoping there'd be some way to automate things without staff involvement, but then that'd probably be tricky to program. The other suggestion is probably better, or easier, at least.
That could be. Youtube's really strict sometimes, even when they shouldn't be, which is one reason I'd like other sites to be available, though. how many times have they taken down analysis videos and such?
There are lots of times I would have liked the tables and lists. There was even a spot when writing this blog!
Actually, it'd be nice to be able to link to individual spots in a post, too. In fact, maybe we could just write in html? They actually talked about doing that once. It was in 2012, though.
They can, provided neither of 'em are blocking each other (which does happen.). It's not that that important, though, just a convenience thing. The big one would be making it so that somepony that's banned doesn't have all the group posts show up. I've actually unbanned members on the condition that they left the group before, just because half their feed was group threads they couldn't respond to.
It ought to be! There's just a blank spot next to the "Post Comment" button, like somepony forgot to put it there. And the first post of a thread's likely to be a long one, so you don't see things like mistyping a tag and having half the post in italics sometimes without a preview.
I do kinda think groups are kinda an afterthought for knighty on the site, and not something he's focusing on. I also know that he's been working on a massive rewrite of a lot of the javascript on the site, 'cause he posted that it was coming soon (a few months ago, I think?), and he's talked about redoing the tag system and making this a general fanfiction site and not just a mlp fanfiction site several times, which is one reason I don't really think most of this will be addressed soon.
And yeah, some of these would probably be hard to code and migrate everything over that's already there to...
Thanks!
It ended up so long that I'm actually kinda surprised anypony made it through the whole post, especially when I realised I'd typed more than a thousand words...
--Sweetie Belle
Yes and yes and yes
That reminds me, I haven't seen Eldorado post a site post about groups for the past couple months...
Actually, that's one of my own minor pet peeves about groups. The "Similar Groups" listing is a misnomer, I've found it's much more accurate to say something along the lines of "Mutually Joined Groups." Granted, there are still some times where associated groups will be listed there.
Fun and useful. I like this.
Yeah, I definitely know about this. Although I think I've only ever actually left one group total (the HiE group) for this particular reason, despite how much my feed and dashboard still generate from all my other groups.
Holy cow, you're a genius!
All of this is a wonderful idea, the part I highlighted is merely especially so.
Eh, I haven't really encountered many problems with this issue personally, but I do like the polling option here.
Ooh, now there's a good idea.
That's something that might take me a little while to get used to.
Okay, I'm kinda liking the bullet points, scrolling quote box, and tables idea here. Not sure how much I'd put it to use, but I'm liking the idea nonetheless.
Like subforums, this could take me some time to get used to.
Now this is a feature I would probably abuse, if only to fix typos so my eyes don't twitch as much.
Y'know, I believe I've still never actually banned anyone myself, but this is a feature I absolutely agree with.
Yes, that'll certainly be helpful. (I've actually typed up a new post before unlocking a thread, then I scroll up to unlock it, scroll down to post the comment, and scroll back up to lock it again. Still a small chance of someone slipping a post in those few seconds, though...)
Yes. All of my yes! Actually, now that I think about it, giving contributors the ability to organize group folders just as much as an admin, but not any control over the forums, might be a decent idea.
THIS!
Eh, yeah, it really is the same thing, but I rather like the distinction of what they're called now. Makes it easier to tell when someone's referring to stories in a group or some users personal library.
Gotta agree with you there.
Hmm... Ah! I can't remember seeing this idea here in this blog, but I've seen it mentioned by a number of people, and I'm almost positive you've seen it mentioned as well: The ability to more easily search for certain forums within any given group.
(I've also been holding on to a couple small ideas for elsewhere around the site, but they're not really relevant for the topic of groups.)
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One of my pet peeves about that is that it'll show private groups there. I think it'll show deleted groups too, but I could be misremembering.
Thanks!
I may have left a group you're an admin in because of this, even...
I'd love that. I really want to be able to just skip over all the threads that I'm actually responsible for policing quickly.
Yeah. I'm running several groups with banned or absent founders, like the SSPB. I'd really like the security of knowing that it's not possible to have a new admin suddenly hijack the group or something.
I'll admit to having used my admin abilities to change thread titles for spelling and grammar reasons before.
That's actually what I do, too.
That might actually make contributors useful, which would be a good thing.
Searching groups would be pretty nice. I've had to go hunting for threads before.
Actually, I'd like to have a thread and comment history, too, so I could look back at things I've posted in groups, and do the same for other users. It'd make screening new admins easier, and I forget some of the things I've posted sometimes...
--Sweetie Belle
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Yeah, that is annoying, but at least it only shows the private group's name and icon, nothing else. No, I don't think you're misremembering, I'm pretty sure I've been group-hopping that way and came upon a few deleted ones...
I can't blame you. I've even seen Luminary mention hopping back in and out of that one every once in a while.
I confess to that as well.
Right now I'm kinda wishing I would have thought about that way back when knighty asked us what Fimfiction feature we would add/change... However I don't think I was an admin of anything back then, so I wouldn't have even known to suggest it.
I actually remember seeing someone else post a comment a while back on either the site FAQ or Staff page asking about comment history. I forget which mod responded, but I still remember the gist of the answer: "This isn't a forum." I personally find that amusing what with the very word "Forum" being used as one of the main tabs for every group. On a side note, I'd kinda like a comment history of every comment I've posted on the site, not just the ones from groups.