Mystic has an opinion. Oh dear. · 2:14pm Aug 19th, 2012
Alright. So I said I would do a post-mortem about the reasons why Hell’s Traitor was never going to thrill a lot of people. And after trying very unsuccessfully for a few hours to get into some sort of flow when writing, I figure I may as well do it now (seriously, I got like 1.7k words in 4 hours D: That is so painfully slow it’s not funny).
What is about to follow is a long (probably a little self indulgent and might be a tad opinionated as well) blog post, but this is the internet, so frankly, who cares?
Alrighty! OC’s! We all know about em’. Lots of us can’t stand them, and others are fine with them. I for one have no problem with OC’s, as you can probably guess from my tendency to write entire stories about them.
There is a type of OC that gets criticised incredibly heavily and for very good reasons. That OC is the ‘Mary Sue’. Many of you will probably know exactly what a Mary Sue is already, so forgive me in the next few sentences if I just tell you stuff that you already know. The best and simplest way to describe a Mary Sue is as an OC that is vastly overpowered and unbalanced in regards to the rest of the world. Mary Sue’s are like heavy war elephants in the original Age of Empires wherein nothing can beat them D:
Mary Sue’s are bad from a literary perspective because they remove the tension from a plot. How can you legitimately fear for or connect with a character when they are the strongest or smartest or sexiest or whatever thing around (not to be confused with a badass, of course)? Of course, the Mary Sue is often a little more nuanced than that, and can be something as simple as this:
This is the story of an exceptionally smart Pegasus filly named Scarlet. Several years ago, she lost her parents in a tragic accident. Following her loss, Rainbow Dash (sharing an almost-identical situation) entered her life. Whether it was a sick twist-of-fate, or mere coincidence, these two learned to confide in one another. They eventually became the closest of friends, and they remain that way to this day.
(Seriously? I mean… seriously?! Better descriptions, I have seen.)
Ultimately, however, one should want to avoid using Mary Sue’s like the plague, and for good reason.
Where the line starts getting murky, however, is when you start dealing with alicorn OC’s.
The alicorn OC is almost seen quite literally as being one of the worst sins a pony author can make, and such an exercise should really only be done if completely necessary, and by authors who actually have a shred of an idea as to what the hell they are doing (aka Mystic’s first error). Alicorn OC’s don’t just cross the line of Mary Sue half the time; they dance all over it singing about doing disturbing things to the line’s mother. They are by their very nature incredibly powerful and wise and sexy and just damn good at everything. After all, most of them fandom almost sees alicorns as god-like.
It is within this climate that I run into a problem. For you see, I quite like to write about pony history, and that often includes alicorns, not all of whom can be Celestia or Luna or… Cadence…
So if you are forced to use an alicorn OC, then how in hell do you stop them from being a Mary Sue? The short answer is not easily, especially if they are your main character. There is an incredibly biased assumption that most people make that if a story is from Celestia’s pov as she goes about and saves the day, then it’s cool, but if I change the name of the character to “Morning Star’, then so help me God I better prepare for a storm.
Why? Because humans are irrational and tend to be stupid, that’s why.
I kid, I kid. They make that assumption because of repeated exposure to terribly written OC’s, ones constructed by first time authors where the main character is a self insert alicorn who can do no wrong and all of the main six want to do inappropriate things to them while alone (or in some cases not so alone). It’s a learned reflex to back away as quickly as possible, preferably shooting flame at the offending story.
But seriously, it leaves me with a challenge, one that I tried very, very hard to combat with Hell’s Traitor.
Aurvandil’s* character was built within the context of me thinking how I could write about an OC who on the surface looked like powerful and a potential Mary Sue, but who would be characterised in a way that prevented me from falling into that definition.
Well, according to the pre-reader from EqD, who came to their conclusion after a truly epic two pages, I failed miserably.
Now, call me biased, but I am going to say to properly judge a character, that maybe a little more than two pages would be nice, but hey, what am I going to do? Let’s be honest, I did deliberately put myself at the bottom of the hill when setting out to fight this battle. I have no one to blame but myself, hahaha. (And it is up to the author to engage their readers from the first page, so that was a legitimate failure. Also, it's just not all that well written, honestly. Not really my finest hour to say the least.)
Would I call Aurvandil a Mary Sue? No. Not really. He is a powerful sonofabitch sure, but he gets his arse handed to him half the time because he’s an idiot. He’s pretty dumb, impulsive, and is generally not a terribly nice person. He is placed around characters twice as mean and scary as him to tone down his power. Even his interactions with Celestia put him in a position of inferiority! Overall he fails again, and again, aaand again because he just can't make the right decisions. Ultimately, he is a look at how power corrupts. Putting the pov in the hands of the powerful is a perfect way to explore that idea.
So after all that, and how I still managed to fail the test miserably, it can only really leave me with this lesson:
People will never look favourably upon alicorn OC’s. For better or worse, there is nothing I can really do about it. And so how will I apply this lesson into real life?
By never writing from the pov of an alicorn OC again for as long as I live. That’s how!
Aaaand crap. I have written an essay. Oops. Though what can I say? I am a law student! When I start arguing something I never stop! D:
Ah well. Here endeth the rant!
And to see you off, have one of my additions to my inspiration folder:
*And to anyone that cares, Aurvandil is another word for Morning Star, which may or may not be another name for Lucifer. Hell’s Traitor… It suddenly makes sense now! No? Aww… :(
hmm, something to think about. i have started writing a fic to upload to this site and (surprise surprise) alicorn oc. i always knew that having an alicorn oc main character would turn people away, and this blog pretty much sums up my fears as a first time writer. oh well it was interesting to finally hear someone elses opinion on the matter.
also those war elephants were bloody annoying
Great blog, Mystic!
I've been struggling with a Mary Sue character in one of my stories. The worst part, unlike you I didn't realize I had a Mary Sue on my hands. You think I'd have noticed it when I talked about the story to my brother and started with this line; "It's about Dash's long-lost sister, who was rescued by a massive space-ship that she lives on alone." I mean, COME ON!? *Epic FaceDesk*
So, at least you intended to Mary Sue things up, and then try to Un-Mary Sue 'em. Me? I am just terrible at characterizations.
As for Alicorns, it only seems to be acceptable to either use Celestia/Luna (Cadence seems to generate stink eyes almost as bad as an OC), or have one/all the Mane 6 become Alicorns. I'm in the early stages of writing an Alicorn story that has both, and a large heaping of Alicorn OCs. So, I'm probably dooming myself again. Yay?
297260 And this relates to your comments as well, 297262
As far as I am concerned, there is nothing inherently wrong with well-written alicorn OC's. However, like I said in the beginning, I am a little biased. Where you will find trouble is with other people who don't like them by default. And of those people, there are many. So in other words, tread carefully! And know that no matter how well they are written, they are probably doomed to obscurity, which really, really sucks. :(
hmm alicorn are somewhat god like huh ? so ... you know, most of the face the problem to outlive all there friends, i wonder if all can deal with this fact as good as Celestia and Luna ... maybe thats the point where you can get them out of the mary sue hole ... or just dig them in deeper with the "oh friends die, that's why i have no" and so on stuff ...
oh and everyone is free to read what he/she likes ... if there is Alicorn OC in the description and you know you don't like it, don't read the damn story ! if you hate stuff without happy ends, aviod everything with the damn SAD tag !
*shrug*
297267
I'm trying to be hopeful that because they are based on the classical Greek gods (complete with all the rape and incest they are known and loved for) it'll be a little easier pill to swallow. It's certainly a lot darker story than I've attempted in the past. I've considered passing the story along to you when it's a little farther along for your opinion as you're one of the best writers of Teh Epicz! around here.
297270 It would be nice if we lived in a world where people didn't feel the need to hate on the stuff that other people like, but that's nothing but wishful thinking, really, haha.
297271 Greek gods are fun! Hahah. And sure, send it my way when it's ready and I'll happily give it a read through!
Interesting musings, Mystic.
I think that precedent does indeed hobble you if you try to use an Alicorn OC. There have been so many BRUTALLY badly written examples of the breed (some of them in inexplicably popular works which will remain nameless) that it's hard to imagine a worse handicap for starting a ponyfic than including one.
You might as well be writing a stirring tale about a German Totalitarian Dictator; no matter how righteous and good-hearted your character may be, folks will recoil due to the similarity to a certain very, VERY naughty dude in the forties.
HOWEVER, I don't think that's the only stumbling block. I think the other one is Fairness.
If a character slowly and plausibly builds their power - if they "level up," in the RPG sense - over the course of a long and sensical story, the readers feel like they've "earned" it. Folks ENJOY rags-to-riches stories, because there's a sense of justice to them. Dedication and hard work pay off for the underdog. And that's a sympathetic story, because secretly, deep down, almost everyone sees themselves as an underdog.
Not so when the character is a demi-Godly Wunderkind on page one. The reader compares this ultra-character to their own almost-certainly-imperfect life and subconsciously feels judged. An instantly-powerful character feels unjust, unearned. Their power seems arbitrary, their advantages the genetic luck of the draw, and any flaws almost insulting in their failure to compensate. Stupid jerk, they think, yeah, yeah, suuuure you have flaws. Boo hoo. I barely paid rent last month. Dry your tears on your massive wings and then magick yourself up the world's tiniest violin. Asshole.
Creating an Alicorn OC is like trying to create a sympathetic darkly-tanned, handsome, fit, instant-millionaire character... in a world where Jersey Shore exists.
Yeah... good luck. >__<
297296 An area that I did not touch upon, haha. The leveling up process is really very crucial and is good story telling to boot. I know that it is one of the only things that makes Project Horizons still so engaging, at least!
Ultimately, you are 100% right, which when talking about an alicorn produces an interesting problem: if one makes the assumption that they are powerful from birth, then how do they 'level up' so to speak? The answer is that really kind of don't, unless they are somehow stripped of their powers.
Even then, that's not a terribly original or imaginative plot device. It would take an author far better than myself to make that hook interesting, that's for sure!
Which I guess brings me back to my lesson that I learned at the end there. I am never going to write from the perspective of an alicorn OC again, haha. They are fundamentally a bad character choice, and I am nowhere near good enough to pull them off!
I quite like learning lessons, haha. Each one brings me one step closer to being a 'decent writer'! Good gravy I am tired. I can barely string two sentences together! D:
How how, what mighty words from such an innocent writer.
). But this can.. more or less.. easlily be countered by that stuff most people are calling "Characterization".
That's complete bullshit, and I'm not even a bit sorry for saying that.
I don't mean the facts - the world hates omnipotent Alicorn OC's, and not because they are Alicorns. That's true and stuff.
But the conclusion to never-ever write a Alicorn OC again is a bit .. harsh, not to say naive.
Of course it blows a big hole into your story if a character, most likely even the protagonist as this sounds to me, is unable to die (I'm curious, after killing me, what did you planned next?
Let me give an example: Make Pinkie Pie an Alicorn and take away the "we're doomed"-part. Furthermore, we want to have a super-duper awesome adventure. So let her travel to the depths of hell, partying as hard a Alicorn could. At this point, you still have all this hell-stuff (or dreamscape or Faust-forsaken Equestria of whatever you please it to be) with all the badass-guys, not threatening our protagonist with death and glorious fights, but a super-duper. This sentence was getting too damn long. Chaotic, fresh and most importantly differend kind of adventure. How would Pinkie act in Hell? Fighting with 'Him' for domination? Transforming His trone into a cocktail-bar? And how? Maybe the Dreamscape itself would collide with hell, since thoughts of Alicorns are way more powerful then normal once.
What I just want to say is that awesome adventures not always have to be about staying alive and achieve some oh-so important targets, like rescuing gods and stuff.
To speak nerdy: The meta of writing did changed at every point of history, and things which were total no-go's in forgotten times are now viewed in angles which make them actually interessting. Keep adding chaos, keep it fresh. At least this is how I handle it.
Eww..never write a blog-comment beside your epic adventure-story, you never can tell when you'll come to an end.
Final words? I stole your soul lamp idea, because I needed a light-source that give some sort of light which can't be devoured by light-eating imps. Sorry for that.
(I hope this comment makes sense. My brain didn't give a big fuck about it, darn temperatures.)
297276
About the only way I've been able to get away with it is by making said alicorn OC already dead. A few of his actions are mentioned, but that's it. We don't see any scenes with him or hear his voice.
Another way around it, I think, would be to have a story with alicorn OC(s), and then make the story about regular ponies in the world where said alicorn OC(s) exist(s) (especially if Celestia and Luna do not exist for one reason or another).
297296
That's why I set things up different in my Alicorn!Twilight story, and RPGs were definitely an inspiration there to keep things balanced. For example, in my story, the ascension is a very gradual change. She gets a few benefits to start off with, but minor ones. The rest she'll have to earn by living through conflicts against more and more powerful and intelligent enemies. There is a lot in the magic system(s) that will also have concrete limitations.
297262
Well, Cadence is, to a certain extent, Hasbro's alicorn OC.
I thought Aurvandil was okay, but that might just be me.
297309
In the story I'm working/planning I have 6 alicorn foals. 3 of them are the MacGuffin, of sorts, and the others are only mentioned in dreams/flashbacks. The way I handle them is that they haven't fully attained their powers. They are children, and while one day they could be a marathon runner, or a particle physicist, today they are outside playing in the dirt and getting grass stains on their knees. That's not to say they aren't powerful compared to an average pony, but compared to Celestia and company, they are small fries. In that way they 'level up' over time as well.
I enjoyed Project Horizons until about chapter... 30ish, I think. At that point it felt like it was dragging its heels. I lost connection with Blackjack and after that I just stopped reading. I've not read any Fallout Equestria stories since, though I like the setting.
The 'Leveling Up' system of writing a character is a great tool. I think it can also help if you take a character that is canon, but not over-used (like Lyra) and then put a twist on the character. Blueblood in Flight of the Alicorn is a good example of taking an established character and then growing him/her in such a way that the reader really feels attatchment to what was an obvious toss-away prop character in the show. In that example, for anyone who hasn't read Flight of the Alicorn, (SHAME ON YOU!) he isn't an Alicorn, I mention it for the subject of character growth.
297339
Yeah. I've tried different things with her character, but the responses generally boil down to 'I hate this Mary Sue that Hasbro shoved in our faces, don't use her again *stinkeye*'.
Well, I think the biggest problem with OCs is that people make them better at something that's already somepony else's talent. ...
I don't know how to explain.
Like, with your example of an exceptionally smart pony... well Twilight already has that. Or a sexy pony, well...
isn't that Rarity's thing? But seriously it is SO HARD! J-just so hard to come up with a truly ORIGINAL character.
I mean they usually fall into boring archetypes that everypony's seen before. Like the nice orphan child that may or may not have a dark side, sure it SOUNDS cool... the first fifty times.
I mean (don't know if you're an anime geek like me) Okabi Rintarou from Steins;Gate is a wanabee-mad scientist that laughs like a retard but throughout the course of the story he actually changes for the better. Some OCs... don't freaking change. I don't think I'll hate a fic if it has an oc in it, but i probably wont read it.
4.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/S_5IHGcf5II/AAAAAAABSjk/9PsNThMctCM/s1600/Haters_Gonna_Hate_03.jpg
I am not sure if I understood right what you are trying to say...
But... There will always be someone that dislikes your story. I mean, for example I and lot really lot of other people liked your story, liked Aurvandil, and him being an OC char and also alicorn makes him special. And you are not writing stories because of people that will dislike them, you are writing because people like me like them, and we like them the way they are. You will never satisfy everyone, so do what you want, and there will always be someone who will like that story. And you did not fail miserably, trust me. Have a nice day!
Nicely written rant, and well explained opinions.
Personally, I'm of the apparently small group that doesn't care if the story has an OC in it or not. The only thing that matters to me is whether or not the character is written well, and whether or not the story premise interests me. This does bring up a question that I've been wondering about for a while now. I'm sure everyone here fully well knows that OC's are not meant to be, say, faster than Rainbow Dash, more magically inclined than Twilight, or better at farming and labor than AJ. Most people instantly label characters that do this as Mary Sues. What I've been wondering, doesn't that make Twilight and the rest of the main six Mary Sues? The fact that they set the bar for their respective fields says yes, they should and are supposed to be better than everyone else. That just doesn't sit well with me.
Whatever, they are the main characters of the show, anyway.
Moving on, I think OC's in general are more fun to write about, just because of the liberties you have with them. They're your own creations. This goes for ponies in the show that really don't have an established personality.
Anyway, this rant was a fun read, and really--if you have anymore whims to write these--feel free to write them out.
End note: Would it be too much of me to ask if you could just send me your entire inspiration folder? ^_^; That picture actually fits one of the ideas floating in my head (mental note: make the colossi look like that).
297311 Oh heavens, it's not to say that I will never write about or with alicorn OC's again, just that I will never write from their perspective, haha. After all, alicorns probably played a very significant role in Equestria's history; there is no way I can not write about them!
297319 Perspective is an important part to it all, that's for sure. I mean, if you are writing a story where Celestia and Luna have parents, then I would assume that they would be alicorn OC's. I don't think such a story would be inherently bad by default. After all, The Immortal Game does a decent job and using some alicorn OC's, even if they are a little cartoon-y at times.
297339 And may she burn in he-- Oh look... a pretty butterfly! Yeah. A butterfly.
297416 Well I'm glad someone did, haha.
297443 I adore Project Horizons, haha. It's easily my favourite pony story. I naturally gravitate to just how dark it is, though and so I totally get why some people don't enjoy it as much. Maybe one day I'll finally get suitable inspiration for a story in the Fo:E universe. One day...
And you are very right: Flight of the Alicorn is an awesome story!
297513 Yeah, everyone has different tastes when it comes to OC's. A lot of people become very, very switched off by bad experiences with OC's, and they can happen because of those dodgy archetypes, haha. Still, there are plenty of fantastic OC's as well!
297872 Why thank you! I am thrilled to hear that you liked the story!
Sharing my work is definitely one of the most rewarding parts of writing, and seeing people like my stuff is just the icing on the cake!
297906 One of the reasons I like the show so much is because the characters are genuinely interesting. They all have their special talents, but they all have areas that they let themselves, and others down in. The tough part of creating an OC is that same game: balance. You have to create well-rounded, believable characters if you want your readers to share any sort of connection with them. It's a difficult thing to do, but lord knows I'm never going to stop trying!
As for my inspiration folder, check out my DA favourites. (See my profile box for the link)
299373
Indeed, indeed.
I, for one, subscribe to the theory that Celestia and Luna aren't natural beings. Like, they're the equivalent of summoned daedra or bioweapons, or they literally are gods formed from the ether. The idea that they are both freaks of nature is just as depressing as the idea that their entire civilization and species are gone. Both are very alien sorts of loneliness that no creature should have to experience.
299508 I am so very biased when it comes to their origin stories, haha. I hate to admit it, but I really struggle with anything that even suggests that they got their powers through some sort of luck, or quest, or whatever, and not from a divine source of some sort. Not that they are necessarily gods per se, just that they are certainly... special.