The Moral Event Horizon. · 6:03am May 21st
Gonna discuss another trope today in relation to the Quiververse. In this case, it's the Moral Event Horizon. In simple terms, this is the point a character passes that forever marks them as EVIL and potentially irredeemable. TVTropes itself lists a few examples from FiM, and I won't repeat them here...though I will say that I agree with them wholeheartedly, at least within the context of the TV series.
I bring this up in relationship to the Quiververse mostly because, if the comments and discussion have demonstrated anything, it's that folks seem to think that several characters have effectively crossed it. I'll happily agree with them when it comes to Spoiled Milk - child abuse, especially when it gets physical, is a definite no-no in my book - and especially in regards to Primrose Thorn, but I'm hesitant to do so with other characters whom others could name, both canon and fan-created. This is partly because a lot of the story involving those characters is ongoing, and I'd rather my readership have a more complete picture before passing judgment. I'm the author, after all, and I know what's coming better than most of my readers do...although to my readers' credit, many are more than smart enough to figure things out in advance.
That said, I'm fine with people discussing this sort of thing and making arguments. It tells me that I'm doing something right, and that people care about my work.
Primrose Thorn can go jump in a burning lake of lava for what she's done and is likely on her way to do, and though I'd love to help her on her merry way there, I have a feeling that only Quiver Quill has the right to that decision.
Regarding Quiver's father....well, you know my thoughts on him...but you told me to wait, so I won't say anything regarding him here. I trust you. That being said, if he says something sh!tty to Quiver's face, expect me to rage for a bit. I'll let Sour Sweet speak to his mother and I can't be mad at his grandmother, not really. Not with the background context revealed about her sister.
As for Starswirl and his little society of puppeteers, they crossed the line the second they believed taking away Applejack's parents was a good idea
And if they orchestrated Luna's descent into Nightmare Moon, there will be hell to pay and Celestia will be first in line (this is just a theory of mine). Seriously, there are benevolent timeline police out there and then there's this group. Big difference.
So... as a bit of a disclaimer, I will say in advance that a few of my opinions on this topic may be a bit on the controversial side, although I will try my best to explain where they come from, and I understand I may still have shaky grounds for a few of them at best.
Regarding the candidates that TV Tropes puts forth on the parent show, I don't have much to say. The only one I would truly disagree with is King Sombra if we take the character route of the comics, as in those he proved that despite what a bastard he was, he hadn't fully crossed the Moral Event Horizon (though I will agree things were still tied up just a bit too neatly at the end). But even that is only if we take the character route of the comics, because in the show by itself, he most definitely did cross it.
And despite everything, I will admit I can't bring myself to judge the griffon guide too harshly, because with all due respect to them, actual canon Griffonstone doesn't seem to have literally anything resembling the fostering of compassion and care. Other than Gilda's gestures of care towards Greta and her amused tolerance of Gabby (and of course, Gabby's own attempts at compassion towards her compatriots), we don't see any griffon being nice to another in any manner. The general mindset seems to be, pardon the expletive "Fuck you, got mine.", and it's honestly a miracle that Gabby is as much of a ray of sunshine as she is. Heck, even Gilda having had it in her to make friends with a pony is probably no small feat. But regarding the griffon guide, at the end of the day, I can't bring myself to judge too harshly someone who doesn't care for anyone other than themselves if they grew up in a culture where there seems to be absolutely no attempt to foster that. That said, I fully get why the case is made for her, and I openly acknowledge I'm almost certainly just being too soft here.
These are my thoughts on canon.
Regarding the Quiververse... well... as far as your takes on the canon characters go, I will say that I certainly think Chrysalis crossed the Moral Event Horizon here as well, especially considering the expansion of her treatment of her changelings and what she actually does to surviving parents and the way she rears the young. And depending on how much free will and a capacity to act good the Umbrum actually have (which they seem to, otherwise the Mirror!Sombra couldn't have been good), Rabia also did here with everything she did to Sombra, Celestia and Luna.
Spoiled Milk... well... I confess that at first I hesitated on her case, as I caught the tail end of corporal punishment still being seen as an acceptable means of discipline both at school and at home (for the record, this was when I was a child, so I was on the receiving end, not on the giving one), and I confess that such a thing by itself, in my opinion, would not necessarily put her past the Moral Event Horizon (although for what it's worth, I know the many issues corporal punishment causes and that it's just plain wrong and don't plan on using it myself on any children I have). But her general attitude about doing it (and, to put it shortly, her general attitude about a lot of other things) would overall qualify her as indeed having crossed it, although not very far, if that makes any sense.
On original characters, though...
I don't think Bitterhoof crossed it. He seems to be an angry old jerk, but all things considered, I can't bring myself to say he did cross the Moral Event Horizon, even if I have little to no sympathy for him.
I wouldn't say the pony Leading Rose crossed it either (at least for the time being), though I think the human one did, given the harm YouTube videos are nowadays known to do and the fact he was planning on posting videos of actual children. Putting their lives in peril for nothing but cheap laughs was disgusting.
Luster Drain... well... I think it's another case of crossing it, but not very far.
Smooth Rock certainly did, though. And he crossed much farther past it.
And Brick Wall did too, for that matter. What he was about to do to Spike before Twilight stopped him, and without a sliver of hesitation to boot, was absolutely horrifying.
And last, but certainly not least... Primrose Thorn flew over it like she had alicorn wings and enjoyed prancing around on the other side. Her treatment of pretty much everyone is ghastly, and there is literally nothing about any of her deeds that makes me think she has the tiniest sliver of good or decency in her. At least the rest of her posse still don't look like they'd stoop to murder, and even with Brick Wall, one could at least think he may have the tiniest positive trait of having anything resembling positive feelings for Primrose. Primrose herself clearly doesn't, for anyone at all. And if those things weren't enough, then her claiming she would have murdered the unborn dragon and her attempted murder by proxy of Spike would definitely put her far past the Moral Event Horizon.
Looking back on it, she may not be the most powerful villain I've seen in MLP fanfics, but she might rank up there as one of the most twisted. I look forward to seeing her fully getting her dues.
These are the main characters I would say crossed the Moral Event Horizon. More secondarily, I think Colonel Stormfront and Sterling Aide also did so, and even if we haven't seen her doing it on page, I'd say Ivory Tower may have done it too at some point. Heck, there may even be a case to be made that all members of SMILE other than Bon-Bon crossed it (though I admit I'm possibly being overdramatic here).
I admit there may be more characters that others say crossed the Moral Event Horizon in the Quiververse, but I personally can't think of any at the moment.
I can only say at the end that, as with a lot of things I say, all this is just my opinion.
5782223
Oh, Primrose is inevitably going to find herself facing a well-deserved karmic smackdown, you needn't worry about that. And I appreciate your patience regarding Quiver's relatives. As for the senior members of SMILE, yes, many of them have definitely crossed the MEH without an ounce of shame, though there's also much yet to be revealed regarding them, so stay tuned. Still, an organization that resorts to brainwashing and mental manipulation for a so-called greater good? You can bet that they aren't angels.
5782225
I have plans for Sombra, as most folks likely suspect. Light will be shed on them as time goes on, however. Same with the general cultural attitude in Griffonstone.
Within the Quiververse, I'd agree that Chrysalis crossed the MEH a long time ago, as did Rabia in both the main Quiververse and its equivalent version of the Sombraverse. And so far as I'm concerned, Spoiled Milk has definitely crossed it. A parent spanking a child is controversial nowadays, but I suspect most parents are eager to not do so...and if they did, they'd regret it even as they did it, and only do it as a last resort. Slapping a child across the face whilst accusing them of embarrassing them, however, is a very different thing.
The human version of Leading Rose might or might not have crossed the MEH, but he definitely crossed a line. And his punishment is definitely permanent. Luster Drain was a jerk, and a very stupid jerk at that, but I'm not sure she crossed the MEH. Smooth Rock and Brick Wall, however, have definitely crossed it, as did Primrose and Stormfront. The latter, however, is no longer anyone's concern, and as for the former...well, I've already made that clear.
As said, certain senior members of SMILE have certainly crossed the MEH. I can't argue that their field agents have, however - it's awful hard to say that someone's done a terrible thing when they were brainwashed. Still, more is yet to be revealed, though don't be surprised if they dig themselves deeper before everything is said and done.
5782250
Well... in light of the points you've reminded me of, I'd further agree that you're right. As I said, I did already think that Spoiled Milk had crossed the Moral Event Horizon, though not from corporal punishment... but you reminding me of that scene only makes me further agree. I can say that whenever I endured corporal punishment, my parents were never happy to do that (though again, I'm not defending the practice).
Regarding what you say on the field agents... I did say from the beginning that I was likely being overdramatic, but giving a more tempered version of that statement, I will say I don't think it's implausible some of them have crossed it.
Mind you, I don't know any of the books beyond brief plot summaries, and even then I only know of two: one about a Changeling plot and another I vaguely remember involved Rara and Svengallop. If there are more books besides these two, I don't know of them as of this writing. But depending on how SMILE uses brainwashing, I still think it's possible some field agents may have crossed it. Maybe it's just me making a completely wrong guess, but given how absolute brainwashing seems to need to be as a rule, it's something that could impair mental functions to the point that the senior members of SMILE would prefer to use agents who agreed to the missions of their own free will... and depending on the nature of those missions, any agent who carried them out of their own free will would by extent have crossed the Moral Event Horizon.
That said, this is just my guess, and I'm someone who hasn't read any of the books. If I'm wrong, I'll welcome any correction.
5782536
I can't speak for all of the books, as I've only read one where SMILE is prominent. That being said, I'd like to bring up two things.
One - SMILE having sleeper agents among the Equestrian populace is a personal invention of mine (though other fanfics have explored similar ideas), and has no links to canon or semi-canon materials.
Two - Even if an agent volunteered to undergo programming of some sort, could they really be held responsible for the actions they took while activated? I tend to think of an MEH crossing as being a deliberate, willful act, and an action committed whilst under hypnosis or some sort of outside coercion doesn't seem deliberate or willful.
5782603
Thank you for your further explanation about how SMILE works in the Quiververse, as well as how it is different from as it is seen in the books.
Also, I do agree regarding the Moral Event Horizon - it needs to be willful, and even if someone did agree to put themselves in a state where they could be programmed, they couldn't be held accountable for what they do while the programming was activated. That said... I apologize for not explaining it properly the first time around, but what I was trying to say is that perhaps there would be field agents who did things comparable to what Sterling Aide did to Stormfront or to what Bon Bon almost did to Sour Sweet and the others without needing their programming to be activated.
However, I admit I don't know everything about how SMILE works in the Quiververse, and I acknowledge that it's possible that there are missions for which senior members simply use programmed agents by default rather than trying to choose one who would carry them out willingly, and if that's the case, then I do take back what I said about field agents potentially also having crossed the Moral Event Horizon (at least in so far as any missions they carried out for SMILE are concerned).
5783085
No problem. And yes, there are definitely agents within SMILE who likely have committed acts akin to what Sterling Aide did to Stormfront, especially at the levels of the organization that Sterling Aide is himself in. And the worst part is, they can justify it.
That's my take on it, at least.