Alright, so I'm curious what factors everyone considers as contibuting to the feelings of insecurity Nyx might be suffering beyond her childhood. Clearly, there's been the trauma from everything canon in the Past Sins verse. But side stories have also suggested that Nyx has been a target of vengeful ponies as well. Any child growing up with such a complex and tragic history is going to be suffering PTSD, at the very least, for quite some time.

But is it inherent in her personality? It's a lot of stuff to have suffered through, but I don't think it would be an intrinsic character trait. Yes, even Nyx's creation was traumatic. But it's important to be able to separate one's trauma from one's character. I see character and personality as the "base person" deep below their circumstances and history that form layers on top of them. If you work at it long enough, you can peel back those layers and replace them with good things. Dig far enough down, and you find the essence of what constitutes that person.

And yes, there are good and bad traits in every "core" person. Not suggesting that people are purely good when you strip away their circumstances and history.

I see Twilight playing the primary role in this process when it comes to Nyx. As a child, Twilight is Nyx's rock. The one she can count on for unconditional love and support. The one who works ceaselessly to peel away the layers of trauma and replace them with confidence and purpose.

Another pony I see as important to Nyx's life growing up is Luna. Nyx is essentially a clone of Luna since Nightmare Moon was actually Luna, and Nyx is actually Nightmare Moon. So this makes Nyx technically closer to Luna than to Twilight if you consider the palette of similarities. I view tham as having the same core personality. Highly emotional internally. Mysterious. Intuitive. Unorthodox. Luna is the one who passed judgement on Nyx. But her job would not end there. Luna would want to ensure that Nyx grew up well, and to make sure that no hidden vestiges of Nightmare Moon's tendencies remained (or redeveloped). I think at first, Luna would watch Nyx by becoming close with her. She would visit Nyx often, and form a close bond with her. In a very real sense, Luna would take on a role of "older sister" to Nyx and guide her through some of her difficulties growing up.

Eventually, Luna's role would fade as Nyx became interested in colts. This is fairly typical of teenage years, and it can have any number of possible surrounding circumstances. But one thing is fairly predictable—at some point, it's going to be some young stallion's job to continue the work to peel away the vestiges of Nyx's insecurities. This could take years, but if Nyx is ever going to be a well-adjusted, happy pony, and not always some woobie victim, then one must consider that other major supporting characters in Nyx's childhood would actively need to guide her through the process of getting over her own past.

4904224 One theory on the tropes page is that, not only was she technically an infant in Past Sins, but she is the emboiment of Luna's sorrow, anger, and all that from when she and Luna were one

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It is also worth considering the impact of Nyx's "restoration" that Luna did to her during the judgement. While it's not clear exactly how that worked, it is said that Luna took away all the memories that were not her own, and also all of her preexisting magical strength and skill. And then there's the 'blessing' entity that was destroyed by Nyx. Plus returning her to the age of roughly ten (again). All of this points to a few wildcards in terms of what Nyx would retain from her past, if you are going to consider what she brought in with her from Luna's own past.

Personally, I'd like to suggest that the judgement would also have removed any of the associated guilt from Nightmare Moon's choices. This same guilt which we see Luna herself struggling with in season 5 of the show. Nyx wouldn't have to deal with any of that. Though also in my story, I will make things a bit more complex by revealing that Luna's efforts to erase Nightmare Moon's past from Nyx were not entirely successful. Specifically, latent memories lingering in her subconscious that are connected to her wild alicorn nature.

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I would say that Nyx probably ended up having even more guilt than Luna due to the fact that she didn't even have Luna's years of jealousy to motivate her, plus she was successful in banishing both Celestia and Luna.
To make matters worse, when she was returned to being a filly, she had to deal with ponies that could only see her as Nightmare Moon while still dealing with her own knowledge of how she hurt so many others with a child's mind.

she doesn't even need to have Luna's removal of her memories to have been less than successful, since Luna did leave behind some of the memories because they were part of the decisions Nyx made

4904224 I think that even one insecurity she would have would be the desire to love, and the fear of rejection. Even though Luna took Nightmare Moon's memories from Nyx, I don't think she could take away Nightmare Moon's inherent desire to be loved and accepted. The reason Luna became Nightmare Moon was because she was jealous that Celestia was getting attention for the day, but ponies were asleep during the night. When you peel away the basics of what that was, Nightmare Moon was created from Luna's desire to be loved. As Nyx, she carried on that desire. But unlike Nightmare Moon, Nyx did receive love. Nyx got what Nightmare Moon wanted. And she's afraid to lose that.

Also, the idea of Luna being like a big sister to Nyx is a good idea. And even though Luna will start to lessen her guidance when Nyx finds a colt (honestly, I'd love a fic about Nyx' teenaged years), I think Luna should always be willing to come to Nyx if she ever needs a big sister to support her.

4905620 Technically, when Nyx was turned into Nightmare Moon and Nightmare Moon's memories were returned to her, her mind had also matured. She she no longer had the mind of a child.

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yes, but when she was returned to being a filly, she got a child's mind again, making the processing of everything that much more difficult

4905905

Nightmare Moon's inherent desire to be loved and accepted

But, but...

Luna's desire to be loved

There you go. Yes, this was Luna's trait. Not Nightmare Moon's. NMM was the resultant sum of Luna's good and natural desire combined with her envy and rage. Curiously, we see a vestige of this in young Nyx as we observe her having quite the little temper on occasion in Pen Stroke's sequels.

I'm not sure whether to depict the temper as something she'd carry forward into adulthood or not. There's a certain value in "righteous fury" but that is something other than the immature "I want it my way" attitude.

when Nyx finds a colt (honestly, I'd love a fic about Nyx' teenaged years)

It's coming. Trust me, the plans are in the works. I have a good portion of it planned out already, but I'm not sure when I'll get around to writing it. I might toss it together as a short story like I did with Littlehorn recently, but I think it might be more like 15-20k words instead of 7k.

I think Luna should always be willing to come to Nyx if she ever needs a big sister to support her.

Ideally, yes. There's good storytelling potential if that is somehow inhibited. But yeah, I picture Luna and Nyx as pretty tight.

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how she hurt so many others with a child's mind

Right.

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her mind had also matured. She she no longer had the mind of a child.

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when she was returned to being a filly, she got a child's mind again

But, but... didn't she have that child's mind all along? I always pictured her as a filly in an adult's body during her "ruling" weeks.

Yes, she has to put on the image of an adult, and tried to be the queen they wanted. And really, it's her child's mind that seems to be one of the reasons she's obedient to those who ought to be beneath her. At least at first.

This moment breaks my heart every time:

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I would say that she probably had the mind of an adult, but not even close to the experience of one. If anything, having her mind working like an adult's during her rule would have made things even more confusing for her.

Of course, this would all depend on how you view cognitive development, but experience is probably the most important piece of good decision making and, if anything, NMM's memories would be a hindrance in this.

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Well, that's a good point, because "mind of an adult" is really a misnomer. We all have the same minds, but our added life experience changes who we are. When I was a kid, I used to wonder "when does this transformation into an old person take place?" Now that I'm in my mid-forties, I realize that it actually doesn't. Your interests are largely the same, but your wisdom and priorities in life are vastly different. I also realized that old people when I was a kid are entirely different than people that same age today. Which leads me to believe that old people when I was a kid were actually like that when they were young. People who act like Granny Smith are a stereotype of what elderly people were like when I was growing up some 30 years ago. Veeeeery few elderly people these days act like Granny Smith.

Back to the point though, I think there's a very good chance Nyx's mind would have been flooded with all those memories from being "fully restored" when the spell was completed. This would have been seriously traumatic for her, hence the depicted confusion. She'd still remember her new childhood though, which would be very conflicting. All of this would create huge insecurities. And then after her restoration, the insecurities would be fueled more by her decisions as NMM, which she would retain, but then view through the lens of a child's perspective.

So yeah... therapy bills!

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much as I look with skepticism on a lot of the theories of cognitive development, I do lean towards believing that the ability to think abstractly is something that is not really available before adolescence (and slowly develops into mid- maybe even late-twenties)

I have teenagers of my own and I'm seeing changes that fit that part of cognitive development theory too closely for me to be able to chalk it up to just experience

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Yeah, so imagine the shock if someone had the mind of a say.... 10 year old, which is how old I picture Nyx being at her creation. And then suddenly thrusting all that weirdness of being not only an adult, but a veeeery old adult who was quite evil, and then imprisoned for a thousand years slowly going mad. All flooding her mind at once? Yeah.

An interesting angle I'm taking with Nyx as an adult is that Luna's efforts to erase Nyx's past history were not completely successful. And hints of this problem begin with Nyx somehow accidentally casting an ancient war spell which Luna devised 3000 years ago. It all ties in with my alicorn headcanon where all alicorns go through this transformation as young adults that turns them into something incredibly different. With Nightmare Moon, I have this as being "wild Luna" as if she did not successfully halt her transformation. So Nyx would be a snapshot of that moment, and those things would be latent within her despite Luna trying to remove them at the end of Past Sins. So when Nyx starts going through her own transformation as a young adult, she begins to get glimpses of her ancient past toward that point of no return before it's irreversible. Having Nyx actually remember seducing Luna to embrace the personality would be a terrifying experience for Luna if Nyx confronted her down the line about her apparent failures to lead ponykind. It's all really tricky stuff to try and depict, but I think I have a fairly good plan. Guess we'll see how it turns out.

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But, but... didn't she have that child's mind all along? I always pictured her as a filly in an adult's body during her "ruling" weeks.

Yes, she has to put on the image of an adult, and tried to be the queen they wanted. And really, it's her child's mind that seems to be one of the reasons she's obedient to those who ought to be beneath her. At least at first.

Perhaps her mind was somewhere in between child and adult. Her memories as NMM were those of an adult. And so she tried to act that way, however, it was hindered by the fact that she had fresh memories and experiences as a child. So basically, she was confused. She didn't know if she was a child or an adult.

I'm not sure whether to depict the temper as something she'd carry forward into adulthood or not. There's a certain value in "righteous fury" but that is something other than the immature "I want it my way" attitude.

I suppose there are a few things you have to consider. First of all, children tend to have trouble controlling their tempers anyway, so that explains why she has such a temper. But with time comes experience, and experiences helps to teach control. I see an adult Nyx having control over her temper, but still having a moment once in a while when she's pushed over the edge. However, a teen Nyx would be interesting, because teens tend to be over-emotional because of the hormones at that age (assuming it works the same way for ponies). So I see a teen Nyx perhaps having a more fiery temper because of hormones. I'd like to say she'd have more control over her temper. But you have to control through experience with lack of control through hormones.

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So basically, she was confused. She didn't know if she was a child or an adult.

Yeah, pretty much this.

As for hormones and teenagers, yep, that's a big factor too. Although, while tempers are worse for children than adults, I do think that's too much of a generalization. I've seen lots of kids who are just feral monsters. And likewise adults who are feral monsters. I myself have an exceptionally well behaved 8 year old. But she has a few moments. Those moments though, are absolutely nothing compared to the status quo of a typical child with a temper. So there are good kids and there are bad kids. I got lucky.

For Nyx, I'll be exploring the point when she turns sixteen (meaning six years after her creation). She goes into heat for the first time at school. Embarrassment ensues. Diamond Tiara would take full advantage of the situation. Nyx would need Luna to help get her through this. Only just when she needs her, Luna is unavailable because an international war just broke out. Oh shit. So what does Nyx do? Good story potential there.

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Diamond Tiara would take full advantage of the situation.

Are you gonna take into consideration how in the episode Crusaders of the Lost Mark, Diamond Tiara changed? If you don't, I'll understand. But if you do, I could still see Diamond as taking advantage. Perhaps she still teases others, but is less cruel about it and more about generally teasing. Although either way, I doubt she'd be that fond of Nyx considering their past.

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I've always said that my universe is canon compliant up to, but not including the season four finale (with Tirek). That being said, however, I do pick and choose bits from season 5 which I feel fit well with the universe. I really enjoyed season 5 as a fantastic season full of wonderful moments and characterization for the most part, with the exception of a handful of absolutely terrible episodes.

As for Diamond Tiara's "redemption", I do not anticipate that as being included in my story. MLP is fixated on the idea of villain redemption. I think they've gone a little overboard with it. This is just not how real life works. Human beings who are "bad" do not just turn around when you show them the error of their ways. I have no plans to hop on board that bandwagon.

Granted, Nyx herself is a redemption tale. But I see it as a more legitimate one. Nyx wasn't "reformed". She was transformed. And that's much more realistic.

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As for Diamond Tiara's "redemption", I do not anticipate that as being included in my story.

Fair enough. In fact, technically we haven't seen any signs of Diamond Tiara's reformations outside of that episode. So at current, she could still be a spoiled brat for all we know.

MLP is fixated on the idea of villain redemption. I think they've gone a little overboard with it. This is just not how real life works. Human beings who are "bad" do not just turn around when you show them the error of their ways. I have no plans to hop on board that bandwagon.

I think that a reason why Starlight Glimmer was a good villain. She wasn't reformed immediately. Granted, it had to be done in a time slot of two episodes. But still, even when she was shown one of the alternate timelines, she still wasn't reformed. It took allot of coaxing. And she was able to go toe to toe (or...hoof to hoof...horn to horn?) with Twilight Sparkle. A unicorn had just as much power as an alicorn who's talent is magic.

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A unicorn had just as much power as an alicorn who's talent is magic.

Yeah.

Starlight Glimmer's redemption is not my biggest beef with that episode. It's the fact that Twilight got her flank spanked by a regular unicorn. This was every bit as infuriating as when the same bloody thing happens through the first sixty thousand words of The Immortal Game where Luna (an alicorn depicted as several orders of magnitude stronger than mortal ponies, striking pants-wetting terror into the hearts of her enemies from the very start of the story) gets her flank spanked by Nihilus (Twilight possessed) not once, but twice. Seriously, that story even goes as far as to literally say the words:

Thou didst not truly think thou wert our match, did thee? Even the weakest alicorn can take the strongest unicorn on a good day. We are a god, Nihilus.

And then Nihilus proceeds to kick Luna's ass.

If there's one thing I wish to correct in my story, it is the proper treatment of alicorns. In my view, these are like the Titans of Greek mythology. And what's upsetting about Immortal Game is that that story means to depict them pretty much the same! So it's really inexcusable. At least with MLP proper, we can just handwave it by saying that alicorns aren't really that powerful. Whatever. Even so, Twilight herself is supposed to be one of, if not the most magically gifted unicorns in the world. So WTF Hasbro? Did you seem to think Twilight needed a good humbling? Hell, even in the battle with Tirek, with the abilities of three other alicorns, the best she could do was simply hold her own. That's one of the main reasons Tirek is not canon in my universe.

Whew. </vent>

Anyway, yeah, Starlight's redemption was hard earned. Which is better than it could have been. But it's still just an extended version of what I dislike about redemption stories anyway. The notion that you can just reason morality into someone. Sorry, that simply does not work.

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that finale... yeah, Glimmer should have used cruel intellect to stop the rainboom and should never have been able to go toe to toe with Twilight. The only things Glimmer has above Twi are willingness to use deception and a disregard for the safety of anyone else. I do believe these could be used to foil Twilight's attempts to fix what Glimmer is doing, but training and raw power are decisively on Twi's side.

I would say that reason can be used for redemption, but there really needs to be a clear point where the antagonist is hit by at least a revelation of having become something they didn't plan to be.

I think the finale would have been better if they cut the number of attempts Twilight made down, then pulling Glimmer in at the end of the first half. The second half and her redemption would have worked much better if she was arrogant enough to think that she could fix things and make a better future without Twi and the rainboom -- it would also have fixed one reviewer's problem with how all those disasters were only because Twi and co. weren't around. (dr Wolf) They could have been caused by Glimmer's attempts to fix things without Twilight's friends.

4907032

Starlight Glimmer's redemption is not my biggest beef with that episode. It's the fact that Twilight got her flank spanked by a regular unicorn.

I'm won't try to use this as an excuse, because I don't know if the writers had this in mind. But perhaps Twilight was holding back because using full power could seriously harm Starlight. And there's also the fact that Twilight can't really fight at full power like she would with other villains because Starlight isn't evil, she's just misguided. Also, there were allot a children would could've gotten hurt (like Twilight shooting Rainbow Dash and encasing her in crystal).

Or I could just be making excuses where none are deserved.

Hell, even in the battle with Tirek, with the abilities of three other alicorns, the best she could do was simply hold her own. That's one of the main reasons Tirek is not canon in my universe.

Well to be fair (and I use that term loosely), this was a case of the magic of four alicorns versus the magic of all unicorns, pegasi, earth ponies, and Discord (and possibly other magical creatures) in Equestria.

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training and raw power are decisively on Twi's side.

Yeah. Exactly.

there really needs to be a clear point where the antagonist is hit by at least a revelation of having become something they didn't plan to be.

Well, that's fair, especially if you have a time travel mechanism to literally show your opponent the cost of their actions. Which, amazingly, Glimmer did not just automatically buy!! Props for those balls, Hasbro. I don't think even I'd expect someone to stubbornly refuse to back down after seeing a Fallout: Equestria style annihilation depicted as a result of her own actions.

I think the finale would have been better if they cut the number of attempts Twilight made down

Haha, but you do realize that this was purely a plot device so that we could get a glimpse of nearly all of the villains the mane-six have defeated winning and see what the world would be like in each and every scenario. That kind of contrived plot handling is the cause of so many facepalm-worthy moments in entertainment.

Honestly, what would have made the finale awesome in my opinion would have been if the final scenario was somehow the result of the world where Glimmer herself had won. Twilight even had the perfect spoken line for this, right in that very scene: "And what you're doing leads here."

Seriously, that would have been cool. If somehow, Glimmer's successful campaign to rid the world of cutie marks had some kind of massive repercussions on the balance of magic in the entire world, and the whole thing just imploded or something.

make a better future without Twi and the rainboom -- it would also have fixed one reviewer's problem with how all those disasters were only because Twi and co. weren't around. (dr Wolf)

Ooh, I haven't even been watching the reviewer videos. I should catch up.

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One thing Book Horse could have done is probably talk to whatever adult was in charge of the race. Draw attention to the fact that someone is trying to sabotage future events. Have them postpone the race until Glimmer can be apprehended, then proceed as normal. Hey, it's far fetched, but it didn't even seem to cross Twilight's mind.

Well to be fair (and I use that term loosely), this was a case of the magic of four alicorns versus the magic of all unicorns, pegasi, earth ponies, and Discord (and possibly other magical creatures) in Equestria.

Well sure. It's just extremely sloppy depiction of magic. (And poor utilization on Tirek's part, wandering around being Shoop Da Whoop and all that.) It does not obey any sort of rules of conservation of energy or anything like that. It simply is. I mean, the whole thing is just so far fetched. Nobody on the writing team actually paused to consider... what does all the pony magic actually consist of? What is its nature? Are we even being remotely consistent in this depiction?

And that the other three alicorns could somehow transfer their powers to Twilight. What was the source of this energy? And how does it recharge after normal use? And holy crap, Tirek is one unbalanced villain! I suppose the main reason I can't have Tirek as canon in my universe is because my universe obeys very strict laws of conservation of energy. I account for the source and flow of all magical use just as if it were water or electricity. It all has to come from somewhere, and when it gets used, it needs to be replenished. Tirek messes up my entire metaphysics model. So he's gone.

4908170

Haha, but you do realize that this was purely a plot device so that we could get a glimpse of nearly all of the villains the mane-six have defeated winning and see what the world would be like in each and every scenario.

The same plot device could have been used in a more orderly way if the first alternate future was NMM's, then Discord's, then the rest of the villains could have been caused by Glimmer's meddling to make it work out okay. She could even have contrived events to put herself in Twilight's role and the last one could be a wasteland that only had a giant statue depicting the bringer of equality.

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Yeah, that would have been pretty epic. Though it would have removed Twilight's influence on the situation. Still, yeah it would have been cool.

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Twi could have been along for the ride, warning her against all this meddling, then could be the final voice of reason that makes Glimmer give up on her plot.

4908170 Well, your conservation of energy law is technically canon with Past Sins, since when she find Nyx, she couldn't use magic because the surrounding area was drained of magic.

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Hey I was just looking for that in the original story, but I can't find the text. Where was it mentioned that the magic was drained from the surrounding area in Past Sins?

4945145 It's in Chapter 1, when Twilight goes back into the Everfree Forest. After finding Nyx, she was going to try to teleport her out of the bush. But she couldn't because the area was still void of magic from that spell used.

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Mmm... Much appreciated, thanks.

This lines up with my metaphysics model nicely, so I just wanted to confirm whether it was really in Past Sins or not.

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Again, in "A Nightmare in Eidolon", I want to explore that fear of Nyx being hurt by bitter ponies, or worse, her family getting hurt trying to get to her. This threat is represented by her glasses, which hide her true eyes and garner the most attention and ridicule from ponies, and which in the story she clings to out of that fear. Ultimately, the goal story would be Nyx learning to overcome that fear

4904224
I don't necessarily agree with you when it comes to Luna. I feel that Nyx would be naturally curious of her, but as she interacts with her more and more she begins to realize the two are rather different individuals. Also, and a bit of a radical thought considering the general opinion, but I don't believe that Nyx is Nightmare Moon at all. I think Nightmare Moon died that night of the season premiere, and what part of her that does comprise Nyx is only a faint echo. Nyx herself is more akin to Twilight than she is to Luna, something that was touched up by Pen Stroke in "Winter Bells", when Spell Nexus writes to Twilight and concludes that "Nyx's soul was fractured and needed an anchor to survive, therefore it latched onto the first being it came into contact with to fill in the gaps." Nyx's boundless curiosity and love for books are external traits that give evidence to this truth. I feel that as she gets older, Nyx will become like Twilight but without the obsessive qualities and more jaded and realist's view of the surrounding world, somewhat similar to Luna herself, but a far more relaxed personality.

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I don't agree, for the simple fact that Nyx IS loved, I don't feel that rejection would be a fear she would face. No, in fact, I believe the fear she that would likely consume her the most would be the fear of that love being TAKEN AWAY. She'd be afraid of her loved ones being hurt by ponies who were trying to get to her.

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Though you claim to disagree with me, I think at the core, we actually do agree. My reasoning has Nyx afraid of rejection, your reasoning has Nyx afraid of losing the ones who love her. At the core of both of our ideas is the fear of loss. Though I suppose rejection would be a more extreme case than just losing loved ones.

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It more of the fear that she now has the love that Nightmare Moon so dearly desired, so now her fear is having it taken away