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We don't have enough discussion in this group anymore, so let's get a conversation rolling! Also tomorrow is Lent so I want to get this out of my system before I more or less go away for several weeks in an attempt to better myself (no really, I'm taking this opportunity to find things that won't distract me from my writing habits. Or making friends IRL :twilightsheepish:)

So Disney has a... fascinating history with LGBT characters. I'm not too familiar with the specifics since I'm not into Queer Theory per day, but according to such analyses, several villains are said to be coded gay, and thus it's not really a flattering depiction of gay people, or anyone that deviants from the Hetero/Gender specific norm. Even now off the top of my head, the only positive open cross dressers are Mulan (duh) and Pleakely from Lilo and Stitch (does he EVER get brought up in discussion on Disneys relation to Trans/Gender fluid people?).
Anyways, as far as POSITIVE LGBT coded characters, before Frozen took the world by (snow)Storm,the big Disney blockbuster was The Lion King, which gave is the beloved Comedic duo Timon and Pumbaa. Taking up the roles of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern in this version of Hamlet, they not only serve as some much needed comic relief, but wind up hanging around Simba up until his adulthood. They are portrayed as best friends though not overtly affectionate with each other, and of course live a life of Hakuna Matata (no worries!), which could be seen as saying, "to heck what society thinks, we live by our own rules!" Which sounds awesome and freeing- at first.

See, while their carefree lifestyle is initially presented as appealing, and Timon and Pumbaa themselves are portrayed as likeable, ultimately the Hakuna Matata way is not the path Simba needed to take. His character arc is about facing his past and ultimately taking up responsibility in restoring peace to the Pridelands. And being with these guys kept him away from that. So... :applejackunsure:

Then of course stated outward or not, the two DID essentially raise the young Lion Cub more or less. And while he technically turned out okay, he's got a conscience at least, by the time he's an adult, he doesn't have any desire to take responsibility, especially in relation to his past. Timon and Pumbaa have directly influenced him on this matter, and It takes the return of Simbas old mentor and Ghost Dad to snap him out of it.

So were they bad influences/parental figures to young Simba? Yes and no. As I mentioned they raised him in a matter that didn't really prepare him for life's hardships so much as teach him to run from them. Not the best advice, especially when a child is still grieving over his dad dying RIGHT in front of him. But they did still care about him, provide him food and whatnot. And assuming any of what's depicted in Lion King 1 1/2 during this portion of the movie is true, they did act like decent guardians with him. Timon even outright refers to the experience as "parenthood."

https://m.

Aww, they even let him sleep with them. :heart: Its certainly depicted as a loving family unit in this movie.
Still, it should be pointed out that a fair amount of the events in LK 1 1/2 don't line up exactly with the original film, at least in terms of time passing. And even when I was younger I assumed the whole joke of the movie was that Timon was trying to make himself (and Pumbaa) more important and heroic than they were depicted initially, hence why they get a different role in the final fight, among other changes. That said, the scenes with Timon, Pumbaa, and Simba together are played mostly straight, so I ASSUME much of what's in the above video is accurate.
Mostly the main difference is in framing; the first film depicts Simba as mostly their friend on equal terms once he's a full grown lion, and in the midquel there's more of a parent-child portrayal of their relationship, save for some frat bro moments like the slug eating contest.:pinkiesick: Their jealousy of Nala is slightly different too; in Lion King 1 it's them lamenting the loss of their friend to some girl, and in 1/2, while they do partake in attempts to split them up and hijinks ensue, their fears -well, Timon's- seem rooted in Nala's threatening to ruin their perfect family life ("Cause nothing's gonna take our boy away now!"/"She's gonna put a stake right into the heart of our Hakuna Matata!"), and the aforementioned breakup hijinks can be seen as cartoonish helicopter parenting. It... can go either way honestly. Prior to all this the song Sunrise, Sunset (from Fiddler on the Roof) is played, and that's a song about watching a child become an adult before your eyes. And then there's their bits in Can you Feel the Love Tonight, which is kind of about friends moving on because lust, but in light of the above, also watching ones kid fall in love and feeling useless in their lives.

They'll fall in love and here's the bottom line- our trio's down to two
His carefree days with us are history/ in short our pal is doomed (beat, then hysterical sobbing)

... did I just overanalyze a friggin direct to DVD film? Oh well.

But to continue forward, the first movie doesn't really go into their relationship much, just two dudes who kinda sorta raise a kid with mixed results, but with good intentions. In the midquel naturally we get to see them meet, become friends, and the movie portrays their relation to Simba as being his family in a positive, loving manner. (They're also subject to plenty of Queer baiting jokingly "romantic" moments but it doesn't go further than that as far as their official relationship) But BECAUSE this is framed from Timon's POV, well... it does cause some confusion as to how we should take this. Both films depict Timon and Pumbaa in a flawed but respectable light. But whereas one mostly portrays them as joke characters who teach a kid not to take responsibility, the other portrays them as loving parental figures and unsung heroes- in a movie that's mostly a comedic reinterpretation of the first film.

As for Lion King 2, they are... just kinda there. :applejackunsure: And I haven't watched much of The Lion Guard but from what little I've gleamed (my niece is a huge fan) they are the adopted "uncles" of Bunga, a friend of Kion. And it's portrayed pretty positively too, so make of that what you will.

So there's my ramble on the matter. :rainbowwild:What are your thoughts on these two? If we assume they are coded as gay, is it problematic, ultimately sympathetic, or more complicated thatn either/or? I'm curious to know. And if you don't see them that way or feel I and others are reading too deeply into this, that's fine, like I said I wanted to get an conversation going and this was a subject I found interesting. :twilightsmile:

Most likely they're heterosexual life partners. I try not to read romances into every relationship. It's an unhealthy way to view friendship.

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