So here's something I was chatting with DuvetofReason about last night on the Discord server. Soon, I'll be faced with drafting one of the most unusual chapters of the story. Chapter sixteen - Tales of Horror.

When the strike team leaves to rescue Mint Blossom's sister from Withersberg, they encounter the zebra plague in full swing, having overrun the town. They park the Valkyrie in the balefire clearing and walk the rest of the say. Along the way, they discover an infected pony eating another pony on the trail. There's a confrontation, of course. Mostly, this messes Nyx up emotionally. It also raises the bar for how horrific this story gets because we've got hyper-violent cannibalistic ponies actually depicted in the story, and this scene is where they are actually introduced (alive) for the first time.

The encounter with the single infected pony is meant to be explicit and shocking, as nobody is expecting this. After they deal with that problem, they move on to the town itself. They stay out of sight and watch from a distance. We'll go ahead and give them binoculars as well, since that only makes sense, given Chocolate's report of trouble. What they discover is that the entire town has been turned into a bloody house of horrors. The infected ponies wander the streets openly, and anyone who is "normal" is either used for food, for sex, or has somehow remained hidden for the last few days.

Recall that Chocolate Cake met with the mayor, who was showing signs of being infected, way back in chapter seven. This was Week 22, Day 5 on the story's clock. There are also six ponies in the town who are infected at this stage, but nobody knows this. We don't see what happens on Day 6, where Nyx recovers in Gatorton. Or Day 7, where they return to Canterlot in the afternoon. Or Week 23 Day 1, where Dinky joins the team. It's not until W23D2 when Chocolate returns in the morning to discover the problem. That's 3 1/2 days at the rate the plague spreads to infect or kill the majority of the town's citizens.

Since all this has happened between chapters 8-14, we didn't see any of this directly. The only way we can know about it is by eyewitness account, given by the pony they rescue and bring back to Gatorton to tell the tale.

This is where we've got some decisions to make. One option is to make this a rather sanitized retelling, having Jewel give a very long monologue of how things went down. Or... I could change the perspective format of the chapter and give the readers a visceral showing of how it went. The idea here is to maybe switch to first person perspective and then provide a detailed flashback as Jewel lives through those days for the readers to experience with her. It has the potential of being fairly graphic and disturbing. Even to the point where it may be appropriate to put an author's note at the top of the chapter just to give people fair warning since this is still a Teen rated story overall.

Writing it in first person may be rather unorthodox, but it may be effective, especially given the tone of the scene. It would provide a hell of a lot of tension since we have no idea how things went down or the stuff Jewel went through during those days. When the scene is over, we'd switch back to third person and wrap the chapter up with the decision to move the platoon in and take the town out that evening.

There's one thing which this option might provide for the story. It's the idea that the explicit horrors of the plague could be confined to this chapter. In the future, our heroes obviously deal with the plague and further infestations (nests) of the infected ponies. Also, in act three when Nyx is captured and forced to experience the memories of the infected, that's a pretty big deal in terms of how horrific the story gets. But none of that has to be truly explicit IF we already know how bad it is in a chapter like ch16. The purpose of this whole story is not to constantly depict disturbing violence. But disturbing violence is intrinsic in the story itself. So I'm thinking ch16 may serve as a reference point so that the reader "has seen it" once, and doesn't need to really see it again. Maybe aftermath, sure. Or maybe references to what has happened. But actually getting detailed about it is something I think only has to be done once. We can see in character reactions later in the story how much these things are affecting them. So that's what I think is possibly gained by concentrating the worst parts to one chapter.

But then again... I could be wrong. I'm interested in your thoughts on this. The story is not Project Horizons. It doesn't need that violence bar continually raised. What do you think of the idea? Would it be effective? Would people understand that this is not changing the standard of the story overall?

5561999
The first-person switch sounds interesting. Worth experimenting with, at least.
As for making sure that you don't give readers the wrong impression, I think tha will come down to making the character reactions be sufficiently horrified and making the tone of the scene in question more than just 'rah rah gratuitous gore'. That might be tricky, given that the rape zombies are the embodiment of gratuitous gore. Oh well.

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more than just 'rah rah gratuitous gore'

Hmm... Well there's a good point there in that "gratuitous" literally means "done without good reason; uncalled for." Hopefully, it will all clearly have "good reason" by the time I'm done with it.

A lot of this comes through in an author's prose style. A horror or even a clop author has a style which is the signature of their work. They write things and put extra emphasis on the graphic details. If Somber were to write the scene, he'd focus heavily on expletives and rape. Probably even on how much the aggressors are enjoying it all. My personal style in writing seems to focus more on how characters react emotionally to horrible things, and when I do describe something with explicit detail, I tend to be somewhat clinical about it. See the balefire explosion for an example. Extending this into Jewel's account of the past few days should still reflect my personal style even if the details are more graphic than anything up to this point. In short, it's not what you say—it's how you say it. At least that's what I'm hoping will come across.

Then again, I've never written first-person before. That's supposed to be the most immersive and intimate perspective. It's meant to be awful, and being inside the head of a witness to it all should be effective. So we'll see how it goes. In the first draft, the plan is to get the choreography of events down so we know what we're talking about. In subsequent passes, I'll try and weave in the visceral stuff. Editor feedback through the process will be important.

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That note on the meaning of the word gratuitous is precisely my point. There doesn't seem to be a good narrative reason for the rape zombies to be rape zombies as opposed to...any number of less distasteful things. It doesn't match the war theming you've got going so far, and it doesn't tie into the later revelations with Hyperion particularly well. I'm unsure how you came up with it in the first place, or why you thought it would be the best choice in a story where you're already having to be careful to avoid being slapped with the Mature tag. Mind explaining?

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It's meant to force Nyx to complete her transformation, which is Storm's entire goal so that she can take over and win the war, etc. Storm believes that since Nyx has already overcome the temptations of Nightmare Moon in the context of Past Sins, that her character is strong enough to still be benevolent despite having wild alicorn powers. His greatest hope is that Nyx will become the ruler of the world which would put ponykind in an unassailable position forever.

A big part of his rationale is from Celestia's journal which alludes to the fact that personal connection with the mortal ponies extends the transformation time and allows them to actually halt the transformation if they demonstrate a permanent connection with mortal pony virtues. Or more specifically, "discover one's virtue", per Fo:E canon. Storm wants to shortcut this process by not allowing Nyx the chance to stop the transformation. He wants to push her over that edge against her will for the good of all ponykind. He doesn't care what his personal consequences are for doing this. All that matters is that the war stops and ponykind is saved.

To ensure this happens, the plan is to expose Nyx to the most horrific things which will push Nyx to try and escape the torment. It's loosely analogous to the Hulk in that stress, anger, and an assortment of other extreme negative emotions forces the transformation and awakens incredible power. And also analogous to the Hulk, it is power which was best left untouched and can only backfire on the one who thought it would have been a good idea. Storm does not understand fully what becoming a wild alicorn will do to someone. He thinks Nyx is different because she beat NMM with her own willpower. So he views Nyx as the savior of ponykind who just needs that push in order to be what she needs to become.

As for the zebra plague itself, well that came from experiments in dark magic provided by the Black Book during the zebra/minotaur war. The zebras were trying out biological weapons in the hopes of wiping out the minotaurs. Unfortunately, it got loose in their own homeland and nearly wiped them out instead. It's been kept under wraps in an archive vault ever since. The specific style of insanity which it produces was a product of the bio-magical tampering the zebras did during that war. When Storm finds out about this bioweapon, he decides this will do nicely as a critical ingredient of his plan to force Nyx to transform.

Also, this

The hardest part in communicating this plan to the reader is the exposition which there's very little opportunity to give. I think there may be one good chance to provide this, and it would be that moment when Hyperion takes Storm Shadow over. There could be a nice scene where the two of them can communicate and Hyperion can reveal just how wrong Storm was, and how he's going to use Storm's plan to essentially do the opposite of what he was hoping for all along. From that point forward, Storm is overcome and has no influence over Hyperion's plans. The character will become Starfire at that point, and his plan will be to use Nyx as an ingredient to regain his own former glory once more.

5561999 Sometimes, I really hate when I have no Wi-Fi for a week or so... I tend to miss out on these updates! By the way, this chapter kind of reminds of a certain zombie movie for some reason...

In any case, so we're finally reaching what you consider unusual but I consider that point of no return. Hear me out on why I consider that for this chapter at least if we consider the second option in question. On the basis of the first option, a lengthy monologue would be rather tedious but at least safe for the readers in question. I would like to play it safe sometimes and stick to that should worse comes to worse.

But the second option? I can definitely see a double-edged sword in play here and I won't lie when I say that I am very good in writing first-person perspective especially if I understand the character well enough to the point I somewhat relate to said character. Like Questionable mentioned, the rape zombies is definitely leading to gratuitous gore so unless you can back up why this is such a thing, people are going to be turned off by it perhaps immediately. Now I have written a lot of dark (and admittedly edgy but at least I keep those to myself ) and read some as well so I know how to approach this without raising the bar as you say. Heck, I might even be happy to link one of those books in question if you need an example. But I'm getting somewhat off-topic here. Why I consider the second option a point of no return is because of how things will be handed. Since we will be seeing from a perspective of a survivor I presume witnessing most of what's happening aka, the plague running rampant, there is definitely going to be some sensitive topics that should be tread carefully. As such, taking the second option is like treading on thin ice, one small mistake and the whole thing collapses.

Now mind you, I don't mind both choices as I will happily accept either one without any arguments in mind. But if we are going to take the second route, then we have to be extremely careful about how we approach it

5561999
This might be a good side-story to write if you wanted. Keeping the mature themes in a separate story would preserve your main story's themes and tone.

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Sometimes, I really hate when I have no Wi-Fi for a week or so... I tend to miss out on these updates!

A lot of the developments are worked out on our Discord server. If you want an invite, let me know.

Questionable mentioned, the rape zombies is definitely leading to gratuitous gore

In fairness, that's his term, not mine. I'm fairly confident that the mental image isn't exactly what I have in mind. I never considered them "rape zombies". I've made no secret that I have modeled them after Firefly/Serenity's reavers. The end of chapter ten describes how they think and experience sensations. That sets the stage for what to expect.

I know how to approach this without raising the bar as you say. Heck, I might even be happy to link one of those books in question if you need an example. But I'm getting somewhat off-topic here.

Actually, that's quite on topic by all means.

there is definitely going to be some sensitive topics that should be tread carefully

Yes, and this is where I need the development team's help in discerning just how far is too far for this story.

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I'd like to reiterate that my personal style is (generally) less gratuitous than those who tend to write grimdark as their primary content. Everyone here knows that I hate depictions like what Somber writes in Project Horizons. I find it incredibly distasteful, and I would never stoop to those levels in my own work. I respect my story way too much for that to happen.

That said, horrible things do happen. Presentation is key, as I'm fond of saying. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. I do suspect you all are probably imagining much worse than I'm actually planning on depicting. I've read Aliens: Labyrinth when I was in my 20's and I found it very difficult to stomach, even back then. Similarly, stories like Cupcakes go far, far beyond what I'm thinking of doing.

Jewel herself never experiences the worst of it herself. She witnesses plenty, but the kinds of things which are really disturbing are when a first person character actually experiences these things.

I mean, she never gets raped, so that's a big plus right there. In fact, the whole "rape angle" is one which I'd be careful to avoid being too explicit about. She may witness it, and she may recoil in horror, but that doesn't mean I need to dwell on the details. Recall if you will, how I handled such things in the scene where Celestia reads the zebra journal. There are ways of handling it without going down the gratuitous path.

What I need to do is write a draft and let you all give your thoughts on it. Then we'll talk about what kind of content is too much, etc. Again, think Serenity Reavers... The prominent trait is their violence. Second, is their tendency to eat the living. Third is the rapey aspect, which won't be played up, but exists as a horrible add-on which is their means of spreading the infection.

5567818 But I like doing all that kind of stuff! At least, if the need to arises... Really, that was on-topic? That felt like it was off-topic to me...

Seriously though, I've read, played games, and even seen so much gore that I'm actually rather hardened towards anything related to it, even the gratuitous kind. And all this was during my youth (I believe I was 8 or so) when I would accidently stumble upon this stuff I might cringe a bit but never really so much as barf out my lunch. Seriously, I've read Cupcakes, Cheerilee's Garden, Rainbow Factory, etc. The only one I haven't read yet is Fall of Equestria and that is something I admittedly don't want to read. So I can definitely help in finding out what is too far but at the same time, it may be hard considering I've gotten use to gore in question, both real and virtual (although I might still feel sick about real gore in question). That being said, at least she wasn't a target for that kind of thing so yeah, that is a big plus.

Also, this is the first time I've heard of this Firefly in question... I think I might have to look this up out of sheer and possibly morbid curiosity. I kind of wonder in my thoughts how my OC Zodiac would react to see this...

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The point being that I'm letting everyone on the team know that I'll be requiring some good coaching when it comes to how to do this. And you said you have experience/insight on that exact topic. So... yes, when the time comes, I'll need you to look it over and let me know what you think, offer tips, etc.

As for personal tolerance, my stomach twisted in certain places of Immortal Game. And I found Project Horizons more offensive than gross. I don't think I'd want to write anything I would find personally distasteful or stomach churning. So probably it will be in the green zone. Only way to find out is to make a draft and see what everyone thinks.

this is the first time I've heard of this Firefly in question

Uh... Yeah, Firefly is easily one of the top five best sci-fi shows of all time. Oh look... The writing and acting quality are phenomenal. It's only fourteen episodes (plus a feature length movie), so by all means, find a HD torrent and go watch it!!

And yeah, I did mention this before here.

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Fall of Equestria

Oh god that fic, I haven't read it either but I did read a less horrible sequel someone wrote to it. Just the things mentioned in that one made me sick to my stomach with disgust. That is definitely an example of things taken to extremes regarding rape and such, things which really made me feel extremely uncomfortable.

I've been discussing it with Recon and I'm confident he can pull off a sufficiently creepy and disturbing chapter without delving the depths of grim-dark. The side-story idea was put up if he wanted to write something off the rails

Firefly is a perfect example of a force rarely seen but dripping with menace. You can tell by the characters reactions that these things are not to be messed with without ever really seeing them or what they do. I think that's the angle he's aiming for here.

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Firefly is a perfect example of a force rarely seen but dripping with menace. You can tell by the characters reactions that these things are not to be messed with without ever really seeing them or what they do.

Yes, this. The reavers don't actually make an appearance in the show, but they do show up in the feature length movie finale. But to give you an idea of how effective the writing was, there's this scene where the reavers are chasing the heroes (in a ship) and when faced with the possibility of being boarded and captured, one of the characters prepares a suicide injection as a preferable alternative to capture. That, by itself, speaks volumes of how horrific these reavers are. Without even having to show them on camera. The entire show is filled with exquisite writing.

5567863 Huh, and I'm able to stomach even the most detailed gore, rape, and all kinds of things in existence from games, to books and all that snazz. Not that I'm hating you for it as its your opinion Well, when the draft come, expect me to take it rather seriously. Also thanks for the link with Firefly in question...

5567869 I only heard of it I believe three months ago. I was relatively new to its existence and was admittedly tempted to read such a thing considering as I've said before, I've gotten use to gore and rape in question. But when the person bought it up told me to never read the book in question, I was curious and asked why. He never told me why but to my surprise, he was pleading me to not even peek in it. To this day, I haven't even touched upon the book yet the temptation to read it is so... annoying. Ugh... this is why I hate being tempted sometimes

As for the Firefly thing in question, now you got me intrigued

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This takes everything to the extreme as far as it's unofficial sequel hints at. It's a misogynistic nightmare of a fic where it seems every character is debased and humiliated in one form or another which is an instant turn-off for me.

I can only reiterate your friends' warning.

5567896 Yeah, if I was role-playing my OC right now, he'd definitely would be appalled at such a thing... I'll take your advice as well to heart but goddamn the temptation...

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I'm confused... what, precisely, do you find tempting?

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Oh boy, I wonder.

5569965 I tend to be quite an avid fan (please don't kill me) of the dark stuff which included the books I've mentioned. I like to read the stuff because in my thoughts, it doesn't really affect me since they're just imaginations of one's mind. That and I forgot to add, that I am learning how to write out details like so. It's something that will definitely not be necessary in my eyes but I feel like it might come in handy to learn how it is done even if I might tone it down.

After reading Cupcakes and all manner of Grimdarks, I was able to get a good grasp of how to write gore to an explicit extent and yet manage to also tone it down to a certain level. Having read all of those and finding them meh (though still cringe worthy at how detailed they were), I came to hear upon Fall of Equestria and well, curiosity was tempting me. I want to read the book but at the same time, I don't want to! I recently looked up the story only to find unofficial/official sequels. Not only is the like/dislike bar on almost all of them was almost equalized, just reading the descriptions in question was enough of a glance of the story I am curious about! That really turned me off yet at the same time is making me even more tempted to read just to see if it is truly bad like people say it is...

I'm a little curious. Why would you suggest abandoning the perspective of Nyx & co. just to dive into a narrative by an unknown character?

It's not spooky or horrifying to hear secondhand about events. Simply the fact that Jewel the survivor is telling the story removes that extra element of terror, the 'is she going to survive!?' question.

Now, just going over the draft layout, you've got Nyx returning to Gatorton with the Valkyrie, and the Chocolate being the one that returns to Withersberg first. The only problem is you've got a fair bit of down time involved - he goes, he sees a bit of action, comes back to report it (pause one), Nyx heads over to Withersberg, gets shocked, rescues Jewel, heads back (pause 2), Jewel tells her story (pause 3) and *then* they plan on the big assault.

A dual pronged approach may be better - one, you start by hitting the reader with a popup horror of sorts. If you compress the time a bit, the entire military group could be on its way to Witherton (as its normal next stop) and Nyx goes ahead with her team to warn about the plague. Send the entire team along with Chocolate directly to Witherton, and have the pony confrontation as they touch down. Think eerily empty town, strange shapes slumped in the corners, and the pony eating a pony near the edge of the town. They confront the pony, explode it, and the noise draws out the rest of the raiders. Cue crazy swarm that they escape from (think maddened pegasus splattering itself onto the Valkyrie) and they return to the blast clearing where the ground forces are assembling.

They have a quick moment to regroup, decide they have to take the town back and rescue any survivors, and move in for the big battle.

During the fight, Nyx can find and rescue Jewel, and you can have a post-fight introspective where she comes out of the house thinking about what Jewel just told her had happened, backed up by visuals as Nyx passes them ("I saw them kill the seamstress"- Nyx walks past a pony with her eyes sewed shut)

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Heh the old morbid curiosity. 'How bad can it really be?' reads it, 'Oh god, I cannot unsee what I have just read'

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I'm down with that idea. Let's go for it!

Dear Lord, what have I just agreed to??