Thoughts on the four views, guys?

7957019 I love how methodically and analytically he covered all the options. I usually diss on these, but this one was pretty objectively presented.

I do wonder though, why are there different options? A 5-year-old could write it in a clear way that wouldn't lead to misunderstanding. So why isn't the Bible clear? Why is the Bible so badly written?

7957019
It will not occur, not like this. The rapture as modern Protestants interpret it is a novel interpretation of scripture that only came about in the 19th century. It exists nowhere else in Christian tradition and none of the fathers of the church speak of it, it is a false teaching.

7957097
It is not badly written, it simply was never meant to be the sole source of authority. That error is why you can have 40,000 different Christian denominations with the same book because they are all trying to use it as the sole source of authority. So at the end of the day, they end up following their own opinion and not the teachings of God.

7957108 The problem is that there is no authority except for the book.

God is a mute. There are some people who can hear His voice, but they always turn out to be baby-murdering schizophrenics.

Jesus would be a good authority, but He decided to commit suicide. And even after he became a zombie, he felt that He was too high and mighty to continue gracing mere mortals with his presence.

Holy Spirit would also be a good authority, but it only rapes and impregnates virgins and then avoids paying for child support.

Personally, I don't think we need an authority. We just need a book that isn't written by a bunch of 3-year-olds.

7957138
I don’t know if you’re deliberately trying to antagonize or if you simply do not want to have an intelligent conversation, not dignifying this intellectually vacant, blasphemous statement.

7957151 The exact opposite is true, actually.

I'm always trying to strike up an intelligent conversation, but Christians are like deer. They get triggered or butt hurt at every second word which makes any meaningful conversation nearly impossible.

I stated my arguments very plainly, but you still haven't told us what the alternative to the contradictory and double-meaning Bible is. Why all the suspense?

7957159
Christ did not give us a Bible, he gave us a church. The church assembled Bible and she alone has the authority to interpret it. Anyone anyone who tries to interpret the Bible by their own authority, is simply following their own opinion rather than the teachings of God.

7957162 Yeah, but which church?

You run on the exact same problems as with the 40k+ denominations.

Church is not divine. Church is only a bunch of fillable people.

It would be great if a church had some connection to the divine, but there's zero indication of that being the case.

You do understand that hoping the church is the answer is different than the church actually being the answer, right? Wishful thinking does not bend reality, it only bends your perception and belief.

You can't honestly say that when the church was blessing Adolf Hitler's tools of destruction it was God's will manifest. It was just crazy people doing crazy things and that's all that the church is. We all wish it was something more, but hopes and wishes don't magically make it so.

7957175
Which church indeed? This is where we need reason and history, The two universal constants that we All live in and possess.

Look to the church that Jesus himself founded under Peter, which is the universal or Catholic Church. God made one church for all people under Peter and his successors. It is not a man-made institution, but a divine institution because it was founded by God.

Yes, it is run by men who are weak and fallible, but guided by the Holy Spirit, so that she has never failed or changed her teachings because God cannot change. All the more proof that it is a divine institution. We didn’t make it, therefore, we cannot break it.

7957192

a divine institution because it was founded by God.

Perhaps it has a divine origin, but that doesn't mean that it is divine itself.

guided by the Holy Spirit, so that she has never failed or changed her teachings because God cannot change.

Why is it that the Holy Spirit guides priests under children's panties all the time?

Did Peter's church really adorn itself in gold?

Is this really the same, unchanged church from 2 millennia ago?

The Church taught that one can buy one's way to Heaven. All you need to do is buy indulgence. That was the Church's teaching, so it couldn't possibly have been false, right?

Why is it that other Churches claim to be closer to the first Church than the Catholic Church is? Take the Protestant Church, for instance. The whole reason why it started was because everybody saw that the Church had lost its way. There is zero indication that the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

I get that you have an argument for the Catholic Church, but there are arguments for every other church in existence as well that you choose to ignore. Your argument also has many holes in it. At least half of the world's Christians disagree with your stance.

7957231

Why is it that the Holy Spirit guides priests under children's panties all the time?

Don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Evil men have always been in the Church since the beginning, what else is new? Christ was betrayed for money by one of his first 12 bishops. The fact that the Church endures unchanging (in her teachings) in spite of the imbeciles and knaves present in her is just another testament to the Divine protection/guidance provided to her.

Did Peter's church really adorn itself in gold?

Yes, parts of it. Ever read what Solomon did to adorn the first temple of God? The Catholic Church is the largest charitable institution in history: feeding, clothing, housing, and helping more people than any other government in fact, all other governments, combined.
But we do not exist merely to take care of the poor, but to glorify God and to draw peoples attention to him so that they may have their salvation. We build magnificent churches to draw peoples minds heavenward, that all of this is temporary; we give our best to God.

Is this really the same, unchanged church from 2 millennia ago?

Indeed, it is, the same apostles Creed, the same 12 points. Sure some asthetics change, just as a baby does not stay a baby, but grows into adolescence and manhood, but it is still a human being. It does not change nature.

The Church taught that one can buy one's way to Heaven. All you need to do is buy indulgence. That was the Church's teaching, so it couldn't possibly have been false, right?

The church has never taught such a thing. That is the sin of simony, and it was such a sin that caused so much scandal in the middle ages, wasn't it? Again, there will always be evil actors in the church, doing the wrong thing, but the church herself remains inviolet and does not teach evil, it is impossible.

Why is it that other Churches claim to be closer to the first Church than the Catholic Church is? Take the Protestant Church, for instance. The whole reason why it started was because everybody saw that the Church had lost its way. There is zero indication that the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

They can claim anything they want, but Christ found it only one church and gave Peter and the other apostles the power of rule. Jesus made it so that his church would always be visible and easy to find. Where Peter is, there is the church.
If the protestants were the true church of God, why aren't they united? No, they are scattered.

I get that you have an argument for the Catholic Church, but there are arguments for every other church in existence as well that you choose to ignore. Your argument also has many holes in it. At least half of the world's Christians disagree with your stance.

Yes, they all have arguments, but none of them hold up to scrutiny. What holes are in my argument? I believe Christ is God, it is evident he found a visible Church, it is evident he gave it structure and leadership. The protestants would not even have a Bible without the Catholic Church, everything they have, as little as it is, are but fragments of what was once the whole. Every one of their churches was founded by a man (usually a Catholic), only the Catholic Church was founded by a God man, Jesus Christ.

7957240 Here are the weak points/holes in your argument:
-You claim that the origin of the Church affects its current state.
-You claim that everything bad that the Church did was just fillable people, never the Church.
-You claim that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, even though there is no evidence of it in the last 2 millennia.
-You claim that the Catholic Church is the only one with divine origin, but you forget that other Churches have separated from the Church which means they have the exact same origin. Just like all denominations have Jesus as the origin, so too do all the Churches.
-You pre-decide that the Church is good instead of actually evaluating it.
-The Church is not charitable. The money for all those charitable acts came from the people. The Church doesn't actually produce anything that they could donate to charity, it only steals from the people; that's the only source of income for the Church.
-You see the Church as the main pillar instead of a fallen side sect that has lost its way and had to be replaced by other churches that are closer to God's church origin.
-The disciples scattered to the world instead of staying united, just like the Protestant Church is scattered instead of united. That makes it closer to God's intent. Catholic Church is centralized and basically a Tower of Babble, waiting to be struck down by God.
...

7957249

-You claim that the origin of the Church affects its current state.

Naturally, only God has the right and ability to produce a true religion. Only a divinely founded institution can withstand the weakness of men. Man made institutions will always fail eventually.

-You claim that everything bad that the Church did was just fillable people, never the Church.

The Church, like Christ, has two natures: Divine and Human. So the church is divine in that she is perfect in her founder, perfect in her teachings, teachings that have never and can never change because God does not change, He is perfect.. But she is human in her members, therefore flawed in her members. Every evil done throughout history by those who represent the Church is simply because they were not following her teachings, were they?

-You claim that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, even though there is no evidence of it in the last 2 millennia.

See above. Christ promised that the Church would never fail (in her unchanging faith) and would endure to the end of time, still here.

-You claim that the Catholic Church is the only one with divine origin, but you forget that other Churches have separated from the Church which means they have the exact same origin. Just like all denominations have Jesus as the origin, so too do all the Churches.

Yeah, and someone can claim the moon is made of cheese, doesn't make it true.
The Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, not Jesus Christ. The Anglican church was founded by King Henry VIII, not Jesus Christ. The Mormon church was founded by Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ. These false churches can claim all day long that they were founded by Jesus, but no, history does not show that.

-You pre-decide that the Church is good instead of actually evaluating it.

It is precisely because I have evaluated the church and come to the rational conclusion of its divine founding that I am Catholic. No other institution run by such sinful idiots could possibly last a fortnight without divine aid. The first night of the church of the 12 bishops, nine ran away, one betrayed him for money and committed suicide, and the leader denied even knowing him three times and said leader was horribly brutally murdered publicly. And yet this institution somehow goes on to alter the very course of history? 12 uneducated men scared of their own shadow somehow change the world and founded an institution that is somehow buried every major empire that has sworn without fail to destroy it? If you can believe that, then I can't. Sorry, I don't have that much faith.

-The Church is not charitable. The money for all those charitable acts came from the people. The Church doesn't actually produce anything that they could donate to charity, it only steals from the people; that's the only source of income for the Church.

Where does any charity get its money? From other people! It is up to the charity to organize it and put it to good use, that is why people give money to any charity in the first place! Your argument doesn't make any logical sense. The church uses the money given to her to build hospitals, universities, orphanages, feed the starving, you name it, we've done it. If you deny that, you're just ignorant of history. And unlike charities, we have entire legions of nuns who do it for no pay, they give their lives to God and the church and take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Point to me any charitable organization that has ever done that and lasted?

-You see the Church as the main pillar instead of a fallen side sect that has lost its way and had to be replaced by other churches that are closer to God's church origin.

Uh, yeah? We have the history and direct connection to the apostles (unbroken apostolic succession, 266 popes all the way back to Peter himself).
It's not my job to convince you to believe that or not, go read a history book.

-The disciples scattered to the world instead of staying united, just like the Protestant Church is scattered instead of united. That makes it closer to God's intent. Catholic Church is centralized and basically a Tower of Babble, waiting to be struck down by God.

Still waiting.

We do go out to all the world, just as Christ told us to, duh. However, we are united in the same creed, worship, and language (or used to be when the Mass was only said in Latin lol) Everywhere you go in the world, the Catholic Church is the same. The Mass is the same. The Faith is the same, we are united under one visible leader, the Vicar of Christ on earth, the Pope.

Protestants can't even agree if Jesus is God or not. No union of belief, worship, or leadership; they are scattered.

7957252

Naturally, only God has the right and ability to produce a true religion. Only a divinely founded institution can withstand the weakness of men. Man made institutions will always fail eventually.

Why do you obsess on the origin so much? Origin doesn't even matter. What matters is how the organizations are run, not how they were produced.

Volkswagen was founded by Nazis, but that doesn't matter. What matters is how the company is run today.

But that's the thing, isn't it? You can't say that the Church is divine because it clearly isn't. So you grasp at straws, having to go all the way back to origins to find something good in it.

So the church is divine in that she is perfect in her founder,

Just like the Devil is perfect and divine because of His Heavenly origins?

teachings that have never and can never change because God does not change,

The Popes keep changing the dogma and there is no force to oppose them.

But she is human in her members, therefore flawed in her members.

So, the Church could become the most evil organization on the planet, and you'd still praise it as perfect?

What would it take for you to see the Church for what it is and not what you want it to be?

See above. Christ promised that the Church would never fail (in her unchanging faith) and would endure to the end of time, still here.

Just like all the other Churches who share the same origin.

The Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, not Jesus Christ. The Anglican church was founded by King Henry VIII, not Jesus Christ. The Mormon church was founded by Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ. These false churches can claim all day long that they were founded by Jesus, but no, history does not show that.

They were founded by Jesus and propagated by people, just like the first Church.

By your own logic, the Church doesn't have divine origin because it was founded by Peter.

It is precisely because I have evaluated the church and come to the rational conclusion of its divine founding that I am Catholic.

Okay, so you evaluated its past. Maybe someday you should also evaluate its present. You know, the thing that actually matters.

No other institution run by such sinful idiots could possibly last a fortnight without divine aid.

Islam, though a tad younger, is also still alive. And many others as well. Some are even older than the Jesus's Church.

this institution somehow goes on to alter the very course of history?

Humans are prone to superstition. It's perfectly logical that we have a religion.

If you can believe that, then I can't. Sorry, I don't have that much faith.

It's very unlikely that you'll win a Lottery, but it's very likely that the Lottery will be won by somebody.

You seem to be stuck in the 'winner's fallacy'. The winner of the Lottery is not special or distinct from others in any way, neither is the Church.

Where does any charity get its money? From other people! It is up to the charity to organize it and put it to good use, that is why people give money to any charity in the first place!

Goood people give to charity. If there was no Church, they'd simply pick a different charity.

Point to me any charitable organization that has ever done that and lasted?

Church is designed around stealing money from people.

If you ever go to a mosque, you'll see the exact opposite. There will be money just lying there, and anybody can take it. That's how it works. The organization gives freely to people to take if they need it, unlike the Church which robs every single one who comes to the church.

Uh, yeah? We have the history and direct connection to the apostles (unbroken apostolic succession, 266 popes all the way back to Peter himself).

And that will still hold true for any church that separates from the fallen Catholic Church.

Still waiting.

You won't have to wait for much longer.

we are united under one visible leader, the Vicar of Christ on earth, the Pope.

And that makes the Catholic Church the most corrupted one of them all. The leader of all other churches is Jesus Christ Himself.

Protestants can't even agree if Jesus is God or not. No union of belief, worship, or leadership; they are scattered.

They follow the Bible which is the only uncorrupted source of divinity we have. It's not their fault that the Bible is so badly written and unclear on basic matters.

Why do you obsess on the origin so much? Origin doesn't even matter. What matters is how the organizations are run, not how they were produced.

Volkswagen was founded by Nazis, but that doesn't matter. What matters is how the company is run today.

But that's the thing, isn't it? You can't say that the Church is divine because it clearly isn't. So you grasp at straws, having to go all the way back to origins to find something good in it.

Man is finite and flawed, he cannot possibly know how to serve a God who is infinite and perfect. If God commands man to serve him, and he does, then he is obligated to tell us in no uncertain terms how to do it, that is justice. Furthermore, only God has the right to say how he is to be served, for only He knows Himself perfectly, not man. It is simple logic.

ust like the Devil is perfect and divine because of His Heavenly origins?

No, the devil is an angel, a creature, not divine. He is a creature just like you or me, just of a higher nature.

The Popes keep changing the dogma and there is no force to oppose them.

Name for me a single dogma that has ever been changed, I'll wait.

So, the Church could become the most evil organization on the planet, and you'd still praise it as perfect?

The teachings are perfect, not its members. The teachings and its founder is what I praise.

What would it take for you to see the Church for what it is and not what you want it to be?

I already know what it is, the only institution in which salvation can be found.

Just like all the other Churches who share the same origin.

They don't share the same origin, Christ founded only one church, not many. One God, one Church.

They were founded by Jesus and propagated by people, just like the first Church.

No, Jesus only founded one Church.

By your own logic, the Church doesn't have divine origin because it was founded by Peter.

No, it was founded by Christ. Peter was simply the first leader of it on earth, just like the current President is not the founder of the country, only it's current representative.

Okay, so you evaluated its past. Maybe someday you should also evaluate its present. You know, the thing that actually matters.

Pointing to present day evil in the church does not invalidate it any more than pointing to evil in the past does, there will always be sinful members. It is a hospital for the sick, not a community of the perfect. The only place the church exists where it is perfect in her members is in heaven.

Islam, though a tad younger, is also still alive. And many others as well. Some are even older than the Jesus's Church.

But they have not remained changeless, have they? These false religions also receive aid from the fallen angels to lead people away from God.

Humans are prone to superstition. It's perfectly logical that we have a religion.

Yes, we are, but only one is real. Superstition is against the first commandment anyway.

It's very unlikely that you'll win a Lottery, but it's very likely that the Lottery will be won by somebody.

You seem to be stuck in the 'winner's fallacy'. The winner of the Lottery is not special or distinct from others in any way, neither is the Church.

She is the only institution founded by God, that's what makes her special.

Goood people give to charity. If there was no Church, they'd simply pick a different charity.

Well, we do have a church, and she has done more more charitable work than all other charities combined.

Church is designed around stealing money from people.

Judas was stealing from the money bag from the beginning, it happens. People are bad. Water is wet. Next objection.

If you ever go to a mosque, you'll see the exact opposite. There will be money just lying there, and anybody can take it. That's how it works. The organization gives freely to people to take if they need it, unlike the Church which robs every single one who comes to the church.

Funny, no one has ever robbed me when I walked into a church. They're called voluntary donations. No one can force you.

And that will still hold true for any church that separates from the fallen Catholic Church.

Exactly, they have fallen away, like a branch that falls from the tree, it is separate and dead.

You won't have to wait for much longer.

You're definitely right. Everything that happened to Jesus, must happen to his church. Just as he was dead and buried, so the church will seem dead and buried only, like Jesus, to rise again.

Jesus told us that by the time he returns that faith will be nearly extinct on earth, so it doesn't surprise me.

And that makes the Catholic Church the most corrupted one of them all. The leader of all other churches is Jesus Christ Himself.

No, Jesus founded only one church, not many. He gave us the structure. He gave us a church, not a Bible. Jesus never wrote any books; the church assembled the Bible, which the protestants so feverishly cling to.

They follow the Bible which is the only uncorrupted source of divinity we have. It's not their fault that the Bible is so badly written and unclear on basic matters.

If they truly follow the Bible, why are they not united? (never mind that it says nowhere in the Bible that the Bible is the sole source of rule) They are not following the Bible, they are following their own opinions, what they think it means. It's a real pity, they are falling for the first temptation of Satan: "You will be as gods, deciding for yourselves what is good and what is evil."

That is why they will never have union. Just like the tower of Babel, the protestant reformers said "we will build a tower for ourselves unto heaven", we will build our own church separate from the Catholic Church, and God scattered them endlessly. History repeats itself.

7957289 Obviously you have excuses. Everybody has excuses. Hitler too had excuses. That alone, however, does not the truth make; it only makes opinions. You have your opinions, I have mine.

At this point, I think it's best if we just agree to disagree, else we'll start spinning in circles.

If nothing else, at least we can both agree that the Church will die.

7957305
Not excuses, facts. Facts make truth. History and reason, these are the two universal standards everyone can use to come to objective truth.

I don’t expect to convince you of anything, but at the very least, I’m glad we were able to have a relatively civil and intelligent conversation. Feel free to hit me up anytime with any questions/objections/points of contention.

Cheers and God bless!