I've been contemplating joining the LDS Church again, but there are a few obstacles in my way right now. They are as follows...
a) Joseph Smith's alleged immoral behavior (like taking a married man's wife)
b) Smith's apparently failed prophecies
c) the Godhead (Father, Son, and Spirit being three distinct personages who are one in purpose, but not coequal, coeternal, consubstantial like with the Trinity)
d) Word of Wisdom (early Mormons drinking coffee, tea, and alcohol, and smoking tobacco, but modern Saints being prohibited)
e) eternal progression (as man is now, God once was...)
Those are my biggest obstacles right now. Could anyone help me at all?

5705515 I'll be more than happy to help, but I'm with family ATM. When I get some time, I'll help. Just be patient.

5705515 May I ask how much of the history of the LDS church you know? Understanding the history of the church will help you understand a lot of the answers for the questions you're asking. For example, the word of wisdom was given because of a question that Emma Smith asked Joseph to ask because The elders of the church used to chew tobacco. When Joseph asked, he received the word of wisdom and thus it became a standard for the church to Live by.

Then the question of polygamy comes up, and how Joseph Smith and other leaders had more than one wife. It was a commandment given from the Lord as a result of the harsh persecution against the church. Many of the men in the church were being killed off by hostile mobs leaving behind widows and fatherless children. The commandment to take upon more Wyatts was given by the Lord to give protection in a name to those who had no husband or father's. There was also a rising generation in the church that it was mostly female with very few males to wed.

In the book of Mormon in the book of Jacob we learn that the only times that it's appropriate to have more than one wife is when the Lord commands it and it is for his own purposes. Hence why polygamy has been discontinued. It was given for a time to serve the Lord's purpose, and now it is no longer needed.

And I don't know what you mean by Joseph's on fulfilled prophecies, or failed prophecy says he put it. The only times I've heard of any of those are when people are misconstruing prophecies that have not come to pass yet, or twisting the words of Joseph so he said something he actually didn't say. So please clarify what prophecies you were talking about.

I was for the Godhead actually been three individual people, in the Scriptures it is explained that they are one in purpose. Think of the bishopric. It is made up by the Bishop, and two counselors. It is a direct simile of the Godhead. God the father who is our E ternal father in heaven who created all of us in spirit and the plan of happiness, God the son who is Jesus Christ known as Jehovah in the Old Testament who created the earth and the heavens under the guidance and commandment of God the father, God the holy ghost who is a percentage of spirit who touches our hearts so we can know the truth in all things. Together they are one and purpose, and yet separate in bodies and as individuals to bring about that purpose.

And that actually brings us to your final question of eternal progression. We know that we are created in the image of God, both male and female. We also know that all things were created in spirit before they were created physically, that revealed in pearl of great price. We also know that heavenly father is our father, his title gets that way. If God, creator of everything, is our father then why cannot we progress to the point where he is at? We have such a very limited understanding here, for we have the veil over our minds so we truly have the opportunity to choose for ourselves whether or not we follow his word, or even recognize his word, or just do our own thing. True he wants all of us to be with him again, but he also wants us to choose for ourselves, to be our own individual's, and that can only happen through this trial of life we are given.

We are here to live by faith, and by faith prove where we would stand. Please ask anymore questions if anything that I've said is unclear or you thought of your questions. And if I can't answer them, there's many people in this group who can who would be more than happy to help. Also excuse any typos as I'm using speech to text on my phone, and sometimes it doesn't understand what I'm trying to say, and as I'm with family for the holidays I don't have as much time to go through and spellcheck everything. Hope this helps.

5705556

And I don't know what you mean by Joseph's on fulfilled prophecies, or failed prophecy says he put it.

Well, there's this...
"[T]he coming of the Lord, which is nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." - History of Church 2:182
Then there's the White Horse Prophecy.
"You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed. It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber ... and it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse"
I'll just send a link to Smith's prophecies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith

I was for the Godhead actually been three individual people

Yes, but don't Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different Gods, rather than One God in Three Persons (the Trinity)?
If so, what about the Bible verses that say there is only one God?

5705638

I just spent a whole hour writing a response... then deleted it.

Just read the Book of Mormon, and Pray about it. I would also invite to the same with the Bible. I love the Bible. Everything else will iron itself out after that.

Edit:
Just noticed the Wiki source, looked at the references. I wouldn't trust a single one of them

5705638

If so, what about the Bible verses that say there is only one God?

Christ also said on multiple occasions that his people, disciples, and even Apostles were one as well. It doesn't mean they were one individual or that they amorphized into a cohesive blob. One in purpose and unity.

Then there's the White Horse Prophecy.
"You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed. It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber ... and it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse"

This one's actually an urban legend. No such prophecy was ever made. It hangs around like a Mormon bigfoot, but it didn't start circulating until well after Joseph Smith was ever around. Studies have traced it to around the early 1900s I beleive, sort of a "friend of a friend of a friend said" campfire story.

5705515
Merry Christmas!
Looks like some useful answers are piling up on this thread already. Just remember that going to church isn't for perfect people only, or even people without any doubts. If you have a sincere desire to know and to act on the answers received, go to church, study the scriptures, and pray about your questions and worries. You'll undoubtedly meet lots of people that will help as you do

5705696

Just read the Book of Mormon, and Pray about it

I've already read it, and I've read Doctrines and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as well. I also prayed after reading Moroni's Promise (Moroni 10:3-5), but I don't think the Holy Spirit ever confirmed whether or not it was true. After that, I pretty much gave up trying to be a Mormon (besides the other reasons that I named).
But even after a year of not pursuing it, I've been thinking about it again, and quite frankly don't know what to do. I have plenty of Mormon friends (most of my classmates in high school were Mormon), and I see them frequently. I even talked with them for a while when I was exploring it. I was ready to join as soon as I moved out, and then I started reading Mormon history, and that was what got me to quit in the first place.

Ah, then i can do this for you. Out of all those things, tell me which one you want me to reaserch the most. Now, I don't believe that much on finding source material, but I do believe in finding a wiser way of viewing things.

5706629 pulled for comment above^

5705515

Hmm, my best advise would be to go to someone who is quite knowledgeable about that church. I'd recommend a Bishop or a local Institute Director if there is an LDS Institute of Religion nearby. You can also go to lds.org and search for answers there, or go to mormon.org where you also can look for answers to questions. However, I will try to answer these questions as best as I can. Most of what I'm saying here came from someone I trust to be well educated in Church History, and he is a local Institute Director and Teacher.

A: Joseph Smith's alleged immoral behavior.

I'm going to start with the particular example you mentioned. There is a story in Church History where a man was commanded to give his wife to Joseph and not tell his wife about it before hand. After much battling with himself, the man did as was commanded. Joseph then revealed that it was a test much like Abraham's when he was told to sacrifice his son, Issac. He did not take this man's wife.

There also was a time when being married on earth and being married in the next life were considered to be two distinct things, though that was incorrect. Women who joined the church, whose husbands didn't, wanted the blessings of being sealed, or married for eternity. Splitting apart families sounded bad, so the idea was to seal them to someone else, and of course they thought Joseph Smith was the best candidate. Though we look back on it and say, "how did they get that idea?" or something akin to that, the fact was it wasn't immediately corrected. I don't know when it was corrected, but apparently the Lord did not see fit to correct it immediately. Also, I don't think Joseph Smith actually participated in these, though I could be wrong.

B: Smith's apparently failed prophecies.

Hmm, if we were to go by what was said on wikipedia about the first one you mentioned, it appears it was predicated on whether or not Joseph Smith lived to 85, or somewhere around that age. He did not live that long, therefore, the prophecy was unfulfilled in a sense. Still, in all my experience with the church, that prophecy has never come up. I'm willing to bet there isn't a lot of truth behind it.

For the second one about the White Horse, there has been no mention of a White Horse being used as a metaphor for something as I can recall. Again, there's likely little truth behind this. If anything, always check the sources for Wikipedia. Make sure they're legitimate, as any random Joe can make something look official and lie.

C: the Godhead (Father, Son, and Spirit being three distinct personages who are one in purpose, but not coequal, coeternal, consubstantial like with the Trinity)

Well, they are three distinct beings and, as described in an earlier post, are one in purpose. They are entirely unified in their purpose, so much so that they can speak for each other, so in a sense they are equal. Christ can speak for God the Father, and the Holy Ghost can speak for both of them. God the Father and Christ have bodies. The Holy Ghost is a spirit because he wouldn't be able to perform his role if he wasn't a spirit.

D: Word of Wisdom (early Mormons drinking coffee, tea, and alcohol, and smoking tobacco, but modern Saints being prohibited)

As described above, The Word of Wisdom came about from a question by Emma Smith to her husband, Joseph Smith, about the men smoking and chewing tobacco. After taking it to the Lord, The Word of Wisdom was given. However, it wasn't a commandment at that time. When it was given it was, quite literally, a word of wisdom. Only decades later did it become commandment, which gave members time to stop smoking, drinking alcohol and drinking coffee. If it was a commandment immediately, everyone in the church at that time would have a very grievous sin on their heads. So, that's why early Mormons did those things, because it wasn't a commandment at that time.

E: eternal progression (as man is now, God once was...)

Hmm, this is a bit tough. The statement, "As man now is, God once was," and the continuation of it, "As God is, man may become," suggests that God, at one point, was a mortal being like us. It also says that we can become just like God, quite literally. It's even hard for me to comprehend, so don't worry. It may be a good idea to connect Eternal Progression with Eternal Life, as they are the same. I fear I make make statements about this that aren't wholly correct, so I suggest taking further questions to a Bishop.

Conclusion:

Note, I am a man, and some of the things I've said may be incorrect. I know I gave what I called the best advice before, but I have something that I think is essential to come to the knowledge of. God loves all of his children, and he wants us all to grow and return to him. Another key bit of advice came from Dieter F. Uchtdorf, the current Second Councilor of the First Presidency of the Church, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt what you know." I probably messed that quote up, by the way. I suggest looking that up on lds.org.

Anyway, I hope this helps answer some of your questions. Having questions is a good thing, as it means you want to know more. Honestly, I'm saying a lot of this from what I remember off the top of my head. Again, find someone in the Church whom you trust to ask these tough questions to. Likely, both of you will have to study it to come to a conclusion, even if that conclusion is a resounding, "I don't know." Again, I hope this helps.

5706764

God the Father and Christ have bodies.

But doesn't the Bible say that Christ is the express image of the invisible God? (Colossians 1:15) Wouldn't that mean only Christ has a body?

because it wasn't a commandment at that time.

But aren't things that are right and wrong always right and wrong? You know, because morality is absolute, and unchanging.

It's even hard for me to comprehend

That's the answer I got from all of my Mormon friends on that one.

5707088

Hmm, this is a difficult one. I think with that verse in Colossians, we need to be a bit careful. I mean, first off, it was likely originally written in Greek or Roman. Also, it say "invisible," which I think suggests that no one, at that time, has seen God the Father in the flesh. As far as I know, everything that came to the Apostles at the time came through either Christ or the Holy Ghost.

The main argument for why both Christ and God the Father have bodies is from the "First Vision," where Joseph Smith, while praying to know which of the many churches at the time with the intention of joining that church, saw them both standing side by side in the air in a pillar of light that was described to be brighter than the sun. I highly suggest looking up that account.

For the second part, I find the best way to look at the laws and principles of the gospel as a tree. The branches would be called the principles of the Gospel, while the roots would be the doctrine. Principles are changeable, while the doctrine is constant. For an example, let's look at the thing about polygamy. The rule is that a man can only have one wife unless specifically directed by God to practice polygamy on a church/society wide level. That is a principle, hence why it can be changed. The doctrine behind it is that God is the giver and taker of life. He dictates how the process to create life should be used. He also is the true judge of who should die, the best example of this is when Nephi was commanded to kill King Laban while getting the brass plates. Nephi knew it would be murder, and questioned that command, but once he was certain that it truly was the will of God that Laban should die, he did it. The Word of Wisdom is also a principle of the Gospel, as drug abuse of any kind is also a part of it now.

For the last part, there's not much I can say. It's true, it's hard to comprehend. The best part is that we don't need to. Our salvation is not reliant upon whether or not we comprehend eternal progression. The thing is, we should aim to learn all that we can, but we're not likely going to know everything. Even the President of the Church doesn't know everything and is not perfect. It is okay if you don't know something.

Ultimately, I think if you really want to know if the Church is true, live it. Experiment it and come to a knowledge for yourself that it is true. The whole point is that you don't have to rely on what I or anyone else says about the Church. Ask God in faith that he will answer, and he will answer. It may not be how, when or with what you want, but he will answer. Through this, you will know for yourself whether or not it is true. I know you said you've asked once already, but a second time, and more, won't hurt if you're still uncertain.

The last thing I want to say is, I wish the best for you. Whatever you decide on this, I hope you find joy and happiness.

5707236
Ok, what about Mormon beliefs on Heaven and Hell? I know the LDS Church believes in Three Kingdoms of Glory: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. And then there's outer darkness, which is where Satan, his angels, and the Sons of Perdition go. What about the Bible verses that say that Hell is eternal for those who didn't receive Christ? I don't see anything about a spirit prison where people can receive Christ in the afterlife.

And then there's the view of various Prophets and Apostles about black people.
"You must not think, from what I say, that I am opposed to slavery. No! The negro is damned, and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of Ham." - Brigham Young
"Cain slew his brother.... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the 'servant of servants,' and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." - Brigham Young
"The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is as nothing compared with that greater handicap that he is not permitted to receive the Priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the celestial kingdom." - George F Richards
"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them.... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..." - Bruce R McConkie

5707236
So, are those quotes from Young actually his own opinion, or was he speaking as a Prophet in those moments? The Mormons I know don't say things like that, but things changed in 1978 with blacks getting the priesthood. Could you try to explain why Young and others would say the things they did?

5705696
This isn't my first exploration with the LDS Church. This is actually my second big exploration of the church. I've read all of the Mormon Scriptures (including the Bible), I studied Mormon theology, and even went to a Sunday service. It was when I began to read history about the Mormons (y'know, because reading something from only one point of view is not always a good idea) that I began to question whether or not the LDS Church was the right one for me. And yet, even after that, after going back to calling it a cult like I used to, I have never really stopped thinking about it, specifically, about joining it.

5707440

Honestly, I don't know why. I don't even know why Blacks were denied the Priesthood in the first place, considering there were Black people who held the Priesthood when Joseph Smith was alive. From the person I trust to be well educated about these things, he said he didn't know and that the current leaders of the church don't actually know because they have put out statements that they don't know the real reason why. There also appears to be very little documentation about when it was put in place. All I know is that the common reasons why are wrong, like the curse of Cain, etc., but the actual reason isn't known. So, perhaps those were simply Brigham Young's opinions on the matter, or maybe there is a bit of truth in there, we just don't know. For the last two quotes, I not sure if they should be considered the beliefs of the individuals. It seems to me that they're simply stating a fact, one that perhaps they don't agree with.

For the first bit about Heaven, Hell and all of that, specifically for the part where it says Hell is eternal, the answer is actually in the Doctrine & Covenants of the Church Section 19 verses 6 - 12, though I recommend reading the verses before it too. I think it'll explain it better than I can. Another good section is Section 76 verses 81 - 89. This specifically talks about the Telestial Kingdom, and I think it ties in well with this. Oh, Section 138 is a good one to read for this too, as it goes in depth about Baptisms for the Dead.

I hope these help. I know there's not a lot of help with the stuff about Blacks not receiving the Priesthood. Perhaps the best thing I can say about it is, the church is God's, but it is delegated to mortal men to run it, and mortal men make mistakes. I like to think it was a mistake made by men, which is good enough for me right now. The answer may come one day.

5707996

For the first bit about Heaven, Hell and all of that, specifically for the part where it says Hell is eternal, the answer is actually in the Doctrine & Covenants of the Church Section 19 verses 6 - 12, though I recommend reading the verses before it too. I think it'll explain it better than I can. Another good section is Section 76 verses 81 - 89. This specifically talks about the Telestial Kingdom, and I think it ties in well with this. Oh, Section 138 is a good one to read for this too, as it goes in depth about Baptisms for the Dead.

I've read Doctrine and Covenants before (as well as Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price). I grew up in a Church where we only used the Bible. Since you guys use the Bible, do you have any Bible verses that you would use to support Mormon teachings?

5708000

Hmm, I've found a few areas where is it mentioned in the Bible, I suggest studying St John chapter 5 verse 25 and 1 Peter chapter 4 verse 6. 1 Peter chapter 3 verse 19 also mentions it, albeit very briefly. The others are in Isaiah, according to the Topical Guide, though I'm not sure how helpful they'll be since I'm not entirely sure what's being said. That's Isaiah for you. The people at the time wanted complicated and convoluted, and they got it. The chapters are 24 verse 22, 49 verse 9, and 61 verse 1. I suggest reading some verses before and after those listed to help get the meaning.

5708013

St John chapter 5 verse 25 and 1 Peter chapter 4 verse 6

OK, those ones definitely seem like they could support Mormon theology.

There's another thing I forgot to mention that's a big issue. Archaeology and DNA. From what I've read, there is no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon like there is for the Bible. And pretty much all geneticists say there is no evidence that Native Americans have any Middle Eastern ancestry.

Not trying to cause problems with all of my questions, but these are all some things that are keeping me from joining the LDS Church at this present time. If I could know for certain about all these things, I might have done it already.

5709198

Don't worry, I'm actually having a good time helping.

With this topic... there really is no answer. All I can say is that science has been wrong about things before. Perhaps the only "evidence" I could present comes from someone I know who is Native American and, through his learning of the stories and legends of the different Native American tribes, has said that some of the stories in the Book of Mormon line up with a few of the legends and stories Native Americans have passed down, though I don't know the particular stories and legends he talked about. I know that's nothing solid and it is probably not what you wanted to hear, but, like I said, there really is no answer to this at this time, at least according to my knowledge.

5709275

All I can say is that science has been wrong about things before.

True.

some of the stories in the Book of Mormon line up with a few of the legends and stories Native Americans have passed down

My dad told me about a tribe that worshipped one God (whose name was their version of Yahweh), and they had a Tabernacle. I found that intersting. Of course, he thinks the Book of Mormon is ridiculous and that the LDS Church is a cult.

5709290

The mom and stepdad of my brother's fiancee also think the LDS Church is a cult, so they both had to deal with that. Most of my mom's family are members, while most of my dad's family are not. My brother's fiancee's biological dad is also LDS.

My brother's fiancee faced a lot of hostility from her mom and stepdad when they found out she was looking into the LDS Church. She decided that she wanted to join the church, left to join us and we got her situated with in my grandparent's guest room. She hasn't regretted it, as far as I know anyway. I don't know how thing are or will be for you, but either way I hope things go well. Just let me, or us here, know if you have any more questions you'd like answered.

5710112
What's funny is that the group that my parents belong to is also called a cult by mainstream Christianity. So one group that's called a cult calling another group a cult.