(Original post here.)

My friends and I watched this video yesterday. (It's the music video for Imagine Dragons "Radioactive.")

Now here's a good question: Who's the hero and who's the villain?

Before we answer that, lets make the assumption that the puppets have the intelligence of dogs.

With that in mind, I say the ring leader is the hero and the girl the villain. BULLET POINTS!

>The ring leader was providing a service to the community with his puppet fighting ring, which allowed the commoners an escape from their mundane lives.
>The girl is the villain because she invaded the ring with the purpose of dismantling it.
>The girl also was clearly cheating, seeing that none of the other puppets had souped-up fists or laser eyes.

What makes this video more interesting is that the girl is supposedly the protagonist, making her what we should idolize. So if you like vigilante justice where one member of society decides what is right and what is wrong, then we should idolize her. As for me, I prefer order. (Now why does this remind me of PEDA...)

1517119 What the hell...? Gladiator stuffed animals? GENIUS.

1517119 I partially agree with you, the girl is definitely not the hero in my eyes, as she destroyed and killed people who are into a form of entertainment. Although it might be illegal but it does not give her the right to kill those men. But she isn't cheating, in the fighting ring the strongest puppet wins, no other rules, unless I miss them. If she could create/find such a strong puppet then she have the right to win.

1517207
The rules aren't clearly stated in the video, but the way the two men intervened definitely showed there was a break in conduct.

1517119 1517181 1517207 1517251 I want to go to one of the PETA movements and at some meat in front of them.

1517272
I though of taping a small card on their main office saying: "Human Killers"

And it would be better if you just stood with a poster of the stats of how many animals PETA killed that year.

1517119 OP is a fgt for not watching the better A Capella version. fgt.

Also, I don't see it as such. The girl was definitely saving lives by dismantling that ring of illegal puppet fighters. As shown by the area, dingy, decrepit, one can already infer that it is in an area not frequented by the police, and is very much illegal. Also, has anyone thought of the reason the girl knows of this place? What if she had the pretty cool doll that was stolen one day, and she found out that it was *forced* to fight? Imagine the heartbreak, and imagine what revenge she might want. But by being the smarter person here, she did what was right, and played by their rules. But because the ring leader doesn't like loosing, he had his men grab the puppet for their own.

Also, break in conduct? My ass brah, brah brah. You guys seem so intent on vilifying the girl, you see almost no reason to look into why she might want to dismantle. She saved many other animals/puppets for dying by freeing them, saving them from the punishment of dying in the ring, a brutal and horrible death even *I* wouldn't want to have.

Dearly suck my nuts,
Arty!

1517296 Oh better idea, go into their main headwaters and eat chicken sandwich in front of them and say, "What? I was hungry and I didn't eat breakfast."

I would say the girl is more of an antihero. The ring is basically the equivalent of a cockfighting or dogfighting ring, and it also appears they were imprisoning people in their basement. The girl decided that this needed to be stopped, and took the matter into her own hands. She didn't care how many of the bad guys died, or what happened to them, as long as they were stopped, in order to make the world a better place. That doesn't give her the right to kill them, but, to be fair, they probably would have continued it somewhere else had she merely stopped it.

1517119

Ah but obviously the video was created to portray it the other way around.

Well if wait, if they have the sentience of a dog then wouldn't that still be cruel nevertheless?

1517333
"Illegal" does not mean "morally correct." Plus she saved the lives of puppets at the cost of two human lives. Do the math.

1517422
Usually, the band seldom plays as characters in the story line of the music video. They're more the metaphoric feel of the video (aka, if this was full length production, the band wouldn't have been in the video).

The girl decided that this needed to be stopped, and took the matter into her own hands.

So in her mind, human lives take second place to the lives of puppets.

That doesn't give her the right to kill them, but, to be fair, they probably would have continued it somewhere else had she merely stopped it.

In this universe, this probably happens all over the place. Just because she stopped one instance doesn't mean she can stop all instances.

1517502
It would be cruel no the less, but the watered-down question is: "Is two human lives worth the lives and welfare of puppets, not to mention the enjoyment the men get out of the sport, no matter how sick and twisted we think of it."

1517653

"Illegal" does not mean "morally correct." Plus she saved the lives of puppets at the cost of two human lives. Do the math.

Never said that illegal was morally correct, did I?

Morally correct is a matter of opinion. If you truly wanted a discussion about this issue, you would try and see the other side, and while you do present a valid point, you're kinda poking at stones here. She also saved the lives of many other innocents in the dungeon, at the cost of two corrupted lives. I'd say that's about as morally correct as you can, because every good deed is not without a sacrifice, be it the good guys, or the bad.

1517695
That is a valid point UNLESS you see the band as a pure metaphor therefore only existing to set the mood AND NOT as character in the story line portrayed by the video. (Besides, why would the ring boss have them caged up with instruments? Free entertainment? )

1517722 Bro, you are seriously pickin' at straws here, man. This is a goddamned music video, so why would they not have drums and instruments in there?

But ffs, really, you'd have to coin them as characters as they participate in the events themselves, being led out by the *main* character, saved being the more used word here. If they were *not* important, then they'd have to not appear crucial/involved with the *story*line of the video. Seriously. Picking' at straws here.

Not Amused Arty.

Music videos are often neck-deep in metaphor, and shouldn't be taken in their literal context.

1517875
As an artist and writer, I have no choice BUT to pick straws. Anything I put in that doesn't fit in or leave out diminishes the quality of my work.

Plus, I hate the message they're sending: "It's OK to kill people, as long as it makes the majority feel good."

Now here's an insane thought: Drug dealers are more patriotic than politicians.

>arguing over the story of a music video from a shit band

1517981

"It's OK to kill people, as long as it makes the majority feel good."

So, you're saying we SHOULDN'T have dropped a bomb on Nagasaki?

How so on the drug dealer part? I don't seem to understand political thinking of this magnitude.

1517990
No.

1518011
That has to do with the "kill or be killed" mentality of two factions. And yes, I am very aware that dropping the A-bomb saved countless American and Japanese lives.

As for my other point, I'll let Penn and Teller do the talking:

1518050 That situation is a general situation. By saying that, killing the few pleases the many, is very, VERY correct. Humanity is about survival, as you might have recognized. By killing off the few, or cutting off your leg, you save the many, being your whole body. You have purposely turned your statement around and have put on a double negative. I'ma leave now, cause this whole situation shows how I'll not win no matter how much I try to point stuff out. Maybe someone else'll come along and type a better example, or a better everything.

1518081
Thank you for the surrender!

1518124

1517119

Two Muppet's enter, one Muppet leaves! But really we have little to no context here so I'm going to go ahead and say she was the "hero" in so much that she broke up a ring of fights that would have "killed" hundreds more. The two men killed were regrettable, but they should have known better than to get into the ring with such a dangerous animal despite what their boss told them to do.

BUT, as we see in the end the whole thing was nothing more than a way to get close to the boss so she could take his key and rescue people from illegal musician trafficking , a horrible crime that results in the loss of thousands of musicians every year from street corners, subways, and that one guy that EVERYONE knows that's in a band. You know, that guy you use to hang out with in high school because he was SO COOL, and the girls always flocked to him and being his friend may get you some by association, but it's been 18 years sense high school and he's STILL in his "band" even though all the other members have moved on or out of state years ago and they are on their fifth drummer because he just can't seem to find a guy that meshes with his vision and it's really starting to get to him but at least he got them a regular gig on the weekends at some little bar in town that wile it doesn't pay much of anything it is exposure and hey any is a good thing right it's just too bad they can't play more but he has to work in the office on the weekdays and his wife will only put up with so much practice time.

...what were we talking about?

1517653

But from what we can see and from what we know from real life, people who go to these things often are involved in many illegal activities, illegal activities that always have consequences to people who don't deserve it. Of course there is the question, are they human? Is that what a human is? A sadist so devoid of entertainment that the only joy they get is seeing two creatures kill each other? Not to mention it is hinted that the girl did it to free the band members that were imprisoned in the cell.

And frankly it was fair, she won the fight but they cheated so her toy fucked shit up, but then you have to wonder if she is also the bad guy since she caged that thing and uses it like the others

two wrongs don't make a right, she shouldn't be using another puppet to solve the puppet slaving problem, the whole point of "Protect sentient beings" is so we don't degrade into monsters, of course this only applies to those that are cuddly and slightly more intelligent that most.

Really this isn't something I want to argue because I don't have a good stance on it

Hey, I have a fun story for you all. Now, this is a story all about how my life got flipped-turned upside down and I'd like to take a minute HERESY! *BLAM*

Anyway, this is a story about the glories of a Lawful Good villain. How a Usually Chaotic Evil species can very well be in the right, or at least be victims. Also known as

You know, my strictly Lawful Good paladin wiped out the Orc race. Like, the entire orc race.

How? Baleful Polymorph. All the non-combatants and 0-Level children/women were Baleful Polymorphed into birds, fish, rabbits...And then simply set free. Within 24 hours, they forgot everything of their former lives, and became animals in truth.

We also offered amnesty for anyone who would come in and take the offer of a 'new life'. Since we'd already crushed the priesthood and all the high-level orc characters, there was simply no spellcaster powerful enough to change them back.

The mass Baleful Polymorphings eventually became known as the Festival of Ascension, and my Paladin was made a saint.

They built a giant marble statue of him, with his great sword - Purifier - in one hand, holding a dove in the other. His eyes gazed forever into the heavens, while at his feet, orcs reached up imploringly at him...With many halfway transformed into harmless birds.

It was glorious.

Later, we put all that wealth to use creating magical items that would allow for the same thing...And creating a holy site that would allow for the same effect.

There would even be monthly festivals where all the orcs were rounded up, fed and treated well, and all transformed at once.

So sort of the Death Camps. Except no-one actually died, and they were fed, watered, clothed...It became a very industrial operation.

See, the focus of the game was a war against the orcs (Who were manipulated into it by demons.) By the end of the conflict, some serious shit had gone down, and the allied races basically went "Never again."

The problem is, we couldn't just pull back, or we'd have to deal with the same problem a generation from now. And we couldn't massacre them either, because we weren't Evil.

Not to mention...We couldn't possibly re-educate an entire race. Also, anti-orc sentiment was basically to the point that they'd be lynched on sight. (Half-orcs were pretty much wiped out.)

So we basically went: "It's not really their fault. Their whole culture and upbringing was corrosive - Indeed, the seed of evil lies in the orc race. Look how ugly and stupid they are: They're truly cursed."

After some talking, it became clear that the only Good option was to give them a second chance at life. Not as humans, but as something purer and more elemental: The birds of the air, and the beasts of the field.

And after they died, so my Paladin's doctrine went, their souls would eventually reincarnate as humans or demihumans.

So we weren't really killing them. We were purifying them. In fact, they could go anywhere they wanted, do anything the want once the transformation was over...

They just couldn't do it as orcs.

We left it ambiguous, because my Paladin basically retired after that. The other PCs went off to be fabulously wealthy, and I settled into an administrative role.

It's pretty amusing that I was eventually known as 'Sir Ambrose of the Merciful Hand'. The funniest part?

The neutral and Good orcs VOLUNTEERED to be Polymorphed. They bought wholeheartedly into the doctrine I scribed and the Clerics disseminated, and it became something of a cult. (Mostly because the only orcs that could walk around in human society had to be members of the Church. And even those would be eventually transformed!)

That was basically the end of the campaign. I'm fairly certain he figured it out, but only after the final session. The hardest part was keeping a straight face.

In-character, my Paladin was entirely passionate about it. Like, he 100% believed in what he was saying: He wasn't using it as an excuse to wipe out the orcs. He genuinely felt that he was doing good.

I like to think that, if he fell, he basically smiled and went: "As I expected. My time as a Paladin is over - It was my honour to serve, but now the burden is lifted from my shoulders."

It would quite probably be the final horror on top of all the others: He'd actually see it as a *reward* rather than a punishment. (As in - "I've found my destiny. Thank you, Lord, for allowing me to live out the rest of my life as a normal man...Without the holy duties of a Paladin.")

He finished writing his book ('The Codex of the Merciful Hand'), then retired from the Knighthood with all honours. Of course, since the suppression of the Orc race is basically his life's work, he spends the new few years speaking very strongly on their behalf...And basically luring thousands into the gas cham - I mean, Fonts of Ascension.

He does this by preaching his doctrine of purification through transformation, with the main theme being: "It's not your fault you're an orc. But for your soul to be saved, you have to be transformed."

Eventually, he marries his Elven girlfriend and either stays on his family estates or just quietly vanishes one day. His children probably become adventurers or are inducted into the knighthood.

If he does end up in Hell, he's probably very surprised.

1518594

...are they human? Is that what a human is?

Yes, they are. And they probably have more entegirty and bravery than that skinny chick with the souped-up beany baby.

1518702

That Paladin is going to have a lot of pissed-off orcs to deal with in the afterlife.

But I do want to thank you for this example. This is what I call a "scythe and smiles" moment, where something looks good and innocent, until you crack it open and find a rotten, maggot infested, insect home of a corrupted organization.

Now if I were an orc hell-bent on killing paladins, then I surely wouldn't want to turn into hawk food. I'd rather be killed DEFENDING my people from insane zealots that think they can "cure" us. Kind of like how Magneto leads the mutant resistance that's causing the humans to fight them in the first place, but we all know a revolution between mutants and non-mutants would happen, be it malignant or benign.

So all you have to do is change your point of view to see how evil the supposed "saviors" are. In fact, those dressed in the garb of angels tend to have the angel of death not too far behind.

The music video... meh I'd love a lot more context before I make a judgement there. The PEDA video though... well I'll make it very simple; people who abuse animals by beating them for no reason ect ect get under my skin. However, I will personally start the apocalypse if I couldn't eat meat anymore. Piss off PEDA, you're not helping!

Another example on if the benefits outweigh the evil could be seen in Fallout.

The Enclave; the remnants of the US Government. While seen as the bad guys in the game, they actually have a genuine plan to restore the nation. So you have to ask yourself; go with guys who have a plan and will re-bring law and order to the United States, at the cost of thousands and thousands of good people dying.

Or, say screw them; don't kill countless innocents, but at the cost of still living in a glorified hell for a very long time.

They make the Enclave evil enough that me, and most others wouldn't side with them in Fallout 3, but in the long run, sure you'd commit a great evil but you'd also be likely to restore the nation proper. It would've been a much harder decision if the Enclave didn't have that drug that would go around killing anything and anyone who was irradiated.

If it was a whole martial law thing and a lot of good people would die in resistance to them, you know what? I'd probably choose the Enclave, because sure martial law and everything sounds bad, but it wouldn't be that forever; just until they weeded out the bad, restored the nation's infrastructure and got the Government sorted out. In the short run it'd be seen as evil, but in the long run it'd be seen as logical with acceptable evils committed for the greater good.

But that kill everything drug just does it for me, it's crossing the bounds for necessary evils and going into just plain cruel. The martial law approach would still have a lot of good people die, yes; but it'd be drastically less and I'd think within the necessary evil to restore law, order and infrastructure.

1518981

I'm guessing you are saying Integrity? I don't see the bravery, the girl on the other hand went in by herself to rescue a bunch of dudes in a room full of more sadistic dudes...then they flee at first sight of danger, I really don't see the bravery

1522944
She went in with a stuffed animal with crazy fists of power and laser eyes. She might as well just have gotten a tank and crashed through the first wall.

Plus if the operation was illegal, then the ring leader and participants have to live with the fear of cops arresting them and throwing them in prison. She just had to worry about her cover being blown before she could get the killer teddy bear in the ring.

Once you take snugly-bunny morality out of the equation and see the story from both sides, THEN we can talk about who's "right" and who is "wrong."

1523689

Morality helps decide who is right and who is wrong.

If not then everyone is always right, Hitler was in the right because all he wanted was a perfect world.

Al Qaeda is in the right because they are fighting for their cause and god

You see? Everyone is always right, but we are told from young what is right and wrong by our parents and teachings (Such as people from America will be taught of how evil communism is and how good democracy is while on the other side of the world the lesson is backwards)

And look at that scoreboard thing, that champion has been tearing apart puppet after puppet and is shown embracing the crowd and evil, the teddy bear didn't even rip him up, all he did was punch the dude.

Then when they lost they got angry and tried to take the teddy down, then they got attacked

You see we are taught from young how to differentiate between the heroes and the villains from TV and Comics

Most of the time the hero is the weaker, the hero is liberating someone and the hero is often in an unfair situation (But using his own natural powers he overcomes the obstacles in front of him.)

You have to be joking when you say that dog fighting is a totally okay thing to do, because it's not, ever, there are no rules, there is no medic, there is no help, the dogs fight and die, there is no in between unless it passes out but then it's still killed later or tortured.

There is only some sort of sadistic enjoyment that our ancestors had.

And if you are all for that then you are a terrible person, there is no "oh who is evil who isn't" anymore, you are just a terrible person for believing that the slavery and death of another is good entertainment especially if you know that the creature is real and is being killed.

Also I don't get your point about the criminals living in fear, they live in fear because they are doing something wrong, when we established the social contract we all agreed that that sort of thing was wrong and thus laws were created, what you are suggesting is that we take away the social contract completely so no one lives in fear

Snuggly-bunny morality?

If it was anyone else in that cage I wouldn't find it any more enjoyable, however should we take away the media and what we were taught from young about good and evil and just look at the video with the mind of a un bias person

Then perhaps it would look like the female was the villain.

But we know otherwise

1525486
When I make these arguments, I like to take the side society shuns. Do I think torturing animals for entertainment is good. No. But I am of the libertarian attitude, and here is why:

The Satanic Syndrome.

(Since this is based upon my personal beliefs, I have to get into the religious side of the argument.)

My dad invented the phrase based on the plan Satan had for each and every one of us with a human body. His plan was to stream-line us through mortality so we could get back to our Heavenly Father and he could get all the glory. Basically, Satan wanted use all to become gods without proving that we could handle something as frail as a mortal body. (Yeah, it's a crazy belief, but there is the possibility that when all is said and done, you and I could be gods, but back to the main point.)

Then there was a war in Heaven that caused a third part to leave the presence of God, leaving the rest to get a body and come here.

tl;dr
Satan wants to control everyone with a body, but can only really tempt us to follow his stupid advice.

The government, however, can force us with guns and the threat of prison and death to do what they want us to do.

This leads to my political opinion that if people want to be stupid, you should let them be stupid. Just don't limit the people who want to protect one another from the stupid and want to do good for society.

1525916

Wait wait wait, I thought Satan was just a fallen angel that tried to give the fruits of knowledge to humans (eg . the Apple from the forbidden tree taught them about not going around butt ass naked) And all he wanted was someone on his side.

But anyway I'm not a guy who reads this shit up so I have no idea

The thing is, what does your point about letting people be stupid and stuff have to do with the video? We are debating why the woman in the video is the real villain.

There is taking the side of the deviants and taking the side of evil, but then the term and definition of 'evil' changes with each person (Once more, Hitler)

The government doesn't force people into doing things with guns and rules, America is totally cool with handing everyone a gun so I don't see the threat if they are letting you have them

Prison and the death sentence are used to punish criminals, they don't toss random people in for shits and giggles

The social contract was created a long time ago to solve the whole problem of laws, a time in the past two people said to each other "If you don't steal my shit, I won't steal your shit, deal?" It is the acceptance from many years ago to give up a portion of freedom for safety, if you want true freedom there cannot be any laws, the laws are created for that purpose

Do you know how hard it is to be a politician? Everyone calls you a tard and you get attacked by other politicians, it's less of "Okay all of the Govt, lets agree to fuck around with the people and increase taxes" And is more of "Hey I have this ide-Shut the fuck up you idiot"

Politics is all over the place, it isn't a bunch of evil people trying to bully others, after all, America's precious Democracy is all about voting in your representative for your interests.

It is my opinion to open the eyes of stupid people, people are not born stupid (well okay you can make certain exceptions to those that suffer mutations), I don't mean forcibly like what Australia did to the Aboriginals but to give them the opportunity to try.

Because when a group of stupid people get together, you don't get one smart person, you get the Klu Klux Klan.

1526311
I respect politicians for volunteering to take on one of thee most hated positions in the world.

What I hate is when people use force to push their messed-up ideology upon another (like a girl with a souped-up teddy bear, or people with people who can hand-cuff you and no one else complains).

I also hate how we demonize people when all people are trying to do is survive on the most evil planet in the universe (the one that would literally kill it's own God, aka Jesus Christ. And yes, the Jews did it.)

No on is clean. That's why we needed an Atonement for our sins.

I also hate the "that's wrong because I feel it's wrong" mentality or "that's wrong because the law says it's wrong" mentality.

1526452

Ah but then what will help us define what is wrong if not our own conscience or the laws of another, an omniscient being that may/may not exist?

The social contract was created by conscience, the laws were created by society. Who else can create the law then? If you say god then you are submitting to a single higher power who does force his will onto others (Both him and his disciples)

The girl didn't force any ideology onto anyone, all she did was go in to save those guys (Though yes it can be argued perhaps she had another alternative)

1530123
1) What is the conscience you speak of? More importantly, where does it come from?

2) I think storming into a fight ring and taking it down with a super-charged teddy bear IS forcing some sort of ideology on the participants. (And the "saving the band" argument is questionable, but IF the band were characters in the video then yes, she did do something I would think justifiable.)

1533664

Conscience come from us, from our experiences with the world and the accumulation of knowledge from all that we have learned through our lives