3439652 No need to apologize. I value all opinions.

I've lived with my girlfriend for about a year. She was talking about marriage and having kids with me. Not sure if that counts as a long term relationship, but I think it does count at least as some experience.

Your view of the relationships is a common one. Most people view love as a positive emotion.

I don't share that view, however. I believe that love is an egotistical emotion. When you're in love, you don't want to be with your spouse because it would bring her pleasure, but because it brings you pleasure.

The funny thing about love is, that it increases if more effort is put into it. When you love someone and that person makes you put in effort, his/her value will subjectively increase. That is the main reason why many girls like 'bad boys'.

When you give in and stop trading in a relationship, the love will decrease and you will both start to drift apart.

I wish relationships would work the way you describe them. I truly do. However, from what I've learned from my and others' experiences, love is a selfish emotion, fuelled by the effort you're putting in the pursuit. Nothing like the harmony you describe.

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give in to what though, being happy? or give in to all the effort that you say it takes and give up.

I agree with you that love is a selfish emotion, but there is nothing that can be completely selfless. Love is one of the few emotions were it's selfishness of wanting to be happy is near enough equal to that of wanting someone else to be happy.

If you are going with the second one however, than you have stopped loving. Again I bring up what you said yourself of love being a selfish emotion, but if you give up on it than you are no longer doing it to make yourself happy and so that would mean that you have stopped loving. I believe that this is what has happened to many people, but they hear the same stories of others and so convince themselves that love is pointless rather than they just lost how to love, and so think relationships are pointless.

And I do not see love as a positive emotion, I see it as one that is perfectly equal, just stronger than so many other emotions

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give in to what though

We are all different people, and that causes different motivations. Sometimes the opinions on how things should be differs between the two in the relationship.

If you dismiss their influences and protect your happiness that your own wants and desires supply, than that is a bad relationship. If you give in and make them 'happy', then that is a bad relationship. There is a third option. You can trade. Give in in exchange for your desires to be fulfilled. Such relationship has a potential for success, but it is draining as it demands constant effort and the defense of your frontlines.

there is nothing that can be completely selfless

My view is, that in the whole history of the universe, no act has yet been performed, that wasn't egotistical in nature. For instance, when you give money to a homeless person, the act makes you content with yourself. You wouldn't give him the money if you'd feel bad for it. You give him the money because it makes you (not him) happy.

Love, in my view, does not come close altruism. It only provides an additional motivation, that makes people be willing to put in extra effort into the relationships. The hormone induced emotion can not last for more than a year, though. After that, other motivational tendencies have to be found in relationship or it will crumble. Basing a relationship on love is a dangerous game. Those foundations are weak.

equal, just stronger than so many other emotions

Emotions are oftentimes hurtful to others. A lot of crimes are performed under the emotional influence. Love is no exception when it comes to violent crimes. I'm not sure if stronger emotions are a good thing. Lots of bad can come out of it.

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True. Having all the information is not enough. You have to process it all as well. When all parties involved take all of the information into account from all the aspects, then the opinions shouldn't differ.

Things are either logical or they aren't, and just like with objective truth, there's also just one objective logic that can be applied to the set of information.

Sometimes, processing the information comes with accepting certain views. Doing the processing incorrectly can lead to accepting the wrong views which lead to accepting the wrong conclusion. Reasoning is a skill, not a given.

However, if everyone knew everything there is to know about that certain thief, then the opinions shouldn't differ.

Their opinions would differ where their goals differ.

So, what are the good guy's techniques to attack their determination?

In that scenario, there isn't one as far as I can see. But in everyday situations, you could ask the person what they're hoping to achieve by doing what they're doing. Sometimes we just do things without ever having thought about them before.

Well, maybe I'm speaking too soon. You could pay him to drop out of the competition. That would be an attack on his determination. While people might think it's a scummy thing to do, that scummy thing would work only if he agreed to it, which means that he's not a victim that's being taken advantage of. People's opinion of you might become muddled though, and I'm sure that's illegal in someone's competition.

That is why I don't consider trade to be harmonious. In harmonious relationships, you'd know you have your back covered and that your spouse would never hurt you by promoting a bad trade for you. When a trade proposal would be made, you'd know it's a good one. You would also only make good trade proposals that would be beneficent to both of you, or beneficial to your spouse and acceptable to you.

I'll try to remember that.

The more I think about this, the more it seems the lack of the survival element is throwing this whole thing out of whack. No one would say such things if their survival depended on who they were with.

I do like clarity. You can send it to me via PM if you have a link to it.

Coming up.

I have the opposite problem. I become a perfect person in their eyes, but at the same time, I die inside.

I'm not dying inside for anyone. It's nearly Dystopian inside here anyway.

I'd do that if they were free. However, the truth of the matter is, that they are very very expensive.

It's the same with food. I'm okay with spending some $ for food, but I'd never spend a 100$ for a meal, no matter how good it was. It's just not worth it. Same with professionals.

...

Maybe the Japanese had something when they were raising concubines from birth.

I don't think that's possible and here's why. I've been a logical thinker since a young age. I've found out about people's ego. I saw how that brain functionality can distort a person's view of the reality. The truth of the world always attracted me. To know there is a mechanism that prevents me from seeking it out was daunting to me. Yet, I saw that same mechanism in myself. The ego, the wants and desires that promoted the illusion of rightness in face of evidence. I couldn't stand for it. So, I annihilated it. I reprogrammed my behavior to rely, not on intuition natural flow of actions, but on calculated rationalization.

With my core ego out of the way, I was able to mold myself into anything I wanted. However, there was a price to pay. There's a reason for the existence of ego, that I didn't account for. It's not just an evil enchantress that blurs the view of the world. It's a guardian, protection one from the strikes from the environment. It was a shield. A barrier that I choose to shed off of me.

That explanation you gave sounds similar to what I went through. I didn't exactly get rid of my ego though, but I try not to let it bullshit me either. Logic only or not, you can't ignore certain things.

It takes a full set of information for the logical functionality to work its magic. In situations where only limited information is available, the ego usually provides a consistent and strainless response. If you have it, that is.

I dunno if I can say that. Mostly everything I decide to want or not want depends on how much of a bother it is. I need only emotion for that.

The only relationship that could work for me would be a well defined one. Ignoring 'the professional cuddlers', relationships simply don't work like that.

But are you also saying that it is impossible to set it up in such a way?

You could write out a contract. Sounds weird, but I've heard of people doing boyfriend resumes. This shouldn't be too out there.

I am, actually. Little effort means little drain. Lots of effort means a lot of drain. Just like you, I can take the drain, but not without a big reward. With relationships being unrewarding, I'm only left with drain.

Giving it some thought, I think I can say that I see drain as this:
(mood + desire for reward + mission successes or momentary rewards) - (effort * time spent attempting to obtain reward without actually getting it)

Mood being how you feel when you start. Desire for reward is obvious. Mission successes/momentary rewards are pluses you get along the way. Effort is obvious. Time spent blahblah, obvious. Assign each a value of 0-10. The final answer is scored on a scale of 1-10. Anything over 10 is pretty much a no-brainer. If it's 9+, I don't even acknowledge that there is "drain", though technically, by your definition, there is drain even if your score is 29.

I don't even dare to comment on the forums without doing a Google Doc spell check on what I wrote.

Nevermind the spelling. I've friends who have English as a first language that have terrible spelling. It just sorta catches me offguard when I can't spot someone who has it as a foreign language.

You don't have to be a chick to be someone's soulmate. That's not dependent on a gender. At least not from my perspective.

Hell yeah I do! It's not happening otherwise.

I guess, being a chick would help if you wanted to get your uterus drilled and hammered at.

Speaking of which.. gotta get that video.

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Their opinions would differ where their goals differ.

Yes, that is true.

You could pay him to drop out of the competition.

Yes, that would be a good guy thing to do. He’s still free to do whatever he wants, you just gave him an extra option. Nothing wrong with that and nobody gets hurt in the process.

Maybe the Japanese had something when they were raising concubines from birth.

If you thought professional cuddlers were expensive, you don’t want to know about concubines.

Mostly everything I decide to want or not want depends on how much of a bother it is. I need only emotion for that.

Those nasty buggers (emotions) were clouding my view of reality. They aren’t dependable when making decisions. They had to go.

You could write out a contract. Sounds weird, but I've heard of people doing boyfriend resumes. This shouldn't be too out there.

I don’t know what I’d write on such a contract. Probably a schedule for intimacy and debates about life the universe and everything.

Even if you take away all the negative aspects of relationships, what you’re left with isn’t all that shiny.

(mood + desire for reward + mission successes or momentary rewards) - (effort * time spent attempting to obtain reward without actually getting it)

That sounds about right, though mine formula would be more like:
(rewards) - (effort * time spent attempting to obtain reward without actually getting it)
Rewarding reward is rewarding, even if you don’t pre-desire it. As for the mood, I try not to base any aspect of my life on that.

Hell yeah I do! It's not happening otherwise.

Why does physical appearance have to affect soulmateness? What does connecting with someone mentally have to do with connecting with someone sexualy?

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I just want to say... watching a certain anime (Mirai Nikki) has obliterated my interest in persuading you to do anything relationship-wise. I see clearly now how infinitely creepy, broken, massively disturbing, and empty it can be, even when it works.

Yes, that would be a good guy thing to do. He’s still free to do whatever he wants, you just gave him an extra option. Nothing wrong with that and nobody gets hurt in the process.

Exactly. Where I saw issue though is that some people might just see it as disrespecting the competition. If you can just pay everyone enough money to drop out, then the competition isn't about who the best writer is anymore, it's about if you can convince them to drop out. It's more of neutral guy than good guy.

If you thought professional cuddlers were expensive, you don’t want to know about concubines.

They'd be mine tho.

Those nasty buggers (emotions) were clouding my view of reality. They aren’t dependable when making decisions. They had to go.

Emotions are like radar. They don't cloud your judgement, they enhance it. The problem with emotions is that they're completely reliant upon your understanding. It's extremely useful for making decisions where you don't have enough time to think, or for getting a grip on how well you're doing some kind of activity. If you're missing information though, your feelings are worthless as a guide.

I don’t know what I’d write on such a contract. Probably a schedule for intimacy and debates about life the universe and everything.

What do you want? What are you willing to give, whether free of charge or conditional?

Even if you take away all the negative aspects of relationships, what you’re left with isn’t all that shiny.

I know full well what you mean.

Rewarding reward is rewarding, even if you don’t pre-desire it. As for the mood, I try not to base any aspect of my life on that.

True.

Sometimes, we can't help it. If you just got out of a long, shitty day, chances are you don't want to go straight to the gym or whatever. You might just want to lay in bed until you fall asleep... or die, whichever one. Morale can make or break effort.

Why does physical appearance have to affect soulmateness? What does connecting with someone mentally have to do with connecting with someone sexualy?

Cause your body monitors that stuff.

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watching a certain anime has obliterated my interest in persuading you to do anything relationship-wise. I see clearly now how infinitely creepy, broken, massively disturbing, and empty it can be, even when it works.

It must have been some very realistic anime.

So, what now, then?

3444141
In a sense.

I don't know. I really don't. Like... if you want to have a family or start some sort of group then bear with it, but otherwise.....

3444197 I will never have a spouse, family or children. I will never again touch another in an intimate way and about 50 years from now, I will die alone. This I know.

I was talking about this thread, though. It seems it reached its end.

3444211
You'd die alone even if you did have all of those, unless you were in a nasty plane crash or car accident or something.

I don't know. The most I can think of is just modifying the title to express failure.

Or maybe you could rename it in a way that would attract more victims, naive people to this thread. They would now have two of us to debate.

Here are some ideas, feel free to rename it into anything you want, though:
Relationships yes or no
The "Let's Change Dragor's Mind" Thread! - now open to public — I know it was opened to public before, but I think we might have scared off some of them.
The "Let's Change Dragor's Mind" Thread! - concluded
Relationships. Are they worth it?
What's wrong with being alone for the rest of your life?

Best to leave this thread to its faith now. Whatever it may hold.

It's been really fun debating you. It brought a smile to my face every time I saw there was a reply from you in this thread. I don't think I've ever got that much prolonged attention from anyone before. Not even from my girlfriend; and I lived with her for a year.

See you around, 3444217.

Best to leave this thread to its faith now. Whatever it may hold.

rip in peace let's change dragor's mind

killed to death

3444242

Or maybe you could rename it in a way that would attract more victims, naive people to this thread. They would now have two of us to debate.

That is a good idea.

It's been really fun debating you. It brought a smile to my face every time I saw there was a reply from you in this thread. I don't think I've ever got that much prolonged attention from anyone before. Not even my girlfriend; and I lived with her for a year.

Wow. I always had this idea that you were kinda annoyed by it. I had no idea.