January 30
I woke up later than I'd planned to. All that effort with the cloud yesterday had really tired me out, but it had been worth it. I know it's not nice to gloat, but I had showed my climate science professor that I really could work with clouds.
I didn't miss a lot from my late morning, though. Peggy usually sleeps in on Saturday mornings, and she was asleep now, lying on her side with the covers pushed half-off her. Her shirt had wrinkled up a bit, too, so that her belly was showing. She looked like she might be cold, so when I got out of bed, I pulled her covers up over her.
The clouds from yesterday had thickened and formed into snowclouds, and there were gentle flakes of snow drifting down. It didn't feel like there would be enough to do more than dust the ground with a fresh coat of white, but that was okay. There was still plenty on the ground from the last snowstorm, and the fresh snow might make the hill a bit more appealing. Since that first day, there hadn't been very many people riding sleds down it, and I hadn't had another opportunity to borrow one.
There are a couple of people who are often out trotting in the morning—they call it jogging—but today I was late and missed my usual friends, which made me feel bad. But I met somebody new, a man named John.
He was surprised to see me. He was coming around the corner where Academy Street curves around Valley Street, and he just stopped in his tracks and stared at me, like he couldn't believe what he was seeing. I also stopped, because he was someone new and unfamiliar, and maybe he'd want to be my friend, too.
Once he got over his surprise, he moved up closer to me, and we introduced ourselves. It turns out that he won't be a trotting buddy for very long; he lives out in the country and was only in town because he was visiting his mother, who lives nearby. That was kind of disappointing; he was a very nice man. Hopefully I'll see him again.
When I was back, I took a nice long shower and made sure I was presentable. Peggy has a mirror which hangs over her closet door, and I groomed myself in front of it. She still wasn't awake, so I kept very quiet.
I had a light breakfast, and then checked my mail. I didn't get any letters, which was disappointing. Maybe there would be some on Monday.
Peggy was finally up when I got back to the room, and she asked me what I was doing today, and I told her that I was going to lunch with Liz, who was going to tell me about God.
Well, then Peggy got kind of a funny look on her face, and said that I should be careful, and I asked what she meant, and she said that there were a lot of opinions about Him and maybe not so many facts. And then she asked if I was sure I wanted to do this.
I told her that I'd said that I would, and I was a mare of my word (even though I still haven't watched Star Trek with Sean but I was going to) and she nodded and hugged me tightly.
Well, I wasn't sure what to make of that. It was kind of an odd thing to say, and it got me a little bit worried. It's a small campus, and surely everyone knows everyone else, so maybe there was something about Liz that Peggy knew and I didn't. And maybe she was just too polite to say.
Or maybe she was jealous that I was doing this. But I think that Peggy is a good, trusted friend, and wouldn't tell me to be careful unless she was honestly concerned, although I couldn't think of a reason why she might be. But I thought I should stay at least a little bit on guard, just in case.
At half-to noon, I walked over to the chapel, which was where she was going to meet me. She was sitting in her office, typing on her computer when I walked in. As soon as she saw me, she stopped typing and gave me a warm smile and welcomed me in.
We walked together to her car, which is a boxy blue thing named Rav-4, which is a really dumb name. Maybe it meant something to her, or maybe she had had three others like it before she bought this one.
We weren't in it for all that long. She drove up to a small shopping center which isn't very far from campus at all. We could have walked.
One one side was a store called Tiffany's and a Papa Johns, which delivers pizza. In the back was a restaurant called Nina's, which is where we went.
The waitress was surprised to see me, but knew Liz—she called her 'Pastor Liz.' We picked a booth in the corner, and the waitress brought over a mug of coffee for Liz and two glasses of water, then asked me if I wanted anything to drink. I thought just the water was fine.
Then we looked at the menu and decided what to eat. That was a bit more difficult than being at the dining hall, where I can see what's offered, but luckily the menu had a little V for things that don't have meat in them.
There weren't a lot of choices, though, and Liz said that she was sorry and she should have thought of that, but I said it was okay; it was better to not have so many choices. I ordered a salad and a grilled cheese sandwich, while Liz chose an omelette and a bowl of fresh fruit.
While we were waiting for our meal, Liz asked me why I wanted to know about God, and I told her that Thomas Aquinas had mentioned him, and He seemed like He had been an important person.
Then she started asking me a whole bunch of questions about what we ponies thought about spirituality and how we believed that the world had been formed and what Princess Celestia's role was in our lives, and I thought that was kind of a dirty trick, since she wasn't telling me who God was, and by the time our food had arrived, I didn't know any more than I had before I came.
We ate in silence for a little bit, and I was just starting to wonder if this is what Peggy had meant to warn me about, then she put down her fork and leaned across the table.
She told me that some of the things that I had told her were faith, because we couldn't know them, and then she explained that many people—including herself—believed that back in the beginning God had created everything that there was, and that He was up in heaven. She said that humans who were good and who followed His laws would go to heaven to be with Him when they died, and those who were bad would not.
I asked her how it was that Thomas Aquinas knew of Him, but the Greek philosophers had not—if He had been around since the beginning of the world, wouldn't they know who He was as well, and Liz said it was very complicated how it all worked, and asked me just how much detail I wanted.
I said that I thought I could figure it out from His biography that she said she was going to give me, and she chuckled and said that with that kind of confidence, maybe I would.
She told me that the Bible was divided into two parts, the Old Testament and the New. She said that originally, God had made a covenant with the Israelites, and they had kept His laws. Then God sent Jesus to make a new covenant with the people, and that was the basis of Christianity.
That, she said, was what Thomas Aquinas had believed in. Then she reached across the table and put her hand on my hoof and told me that it was very important that I understand that while God is perfect, the men who wrote the Bible were not, and that they were not always wise either. She said that to this day people argue about what it all means, but she said that the one thing I should remember above all else was that Christians were supposed to love one another.
She said that some people had forgotten that, but that was the most important tenet of Christianity, and it was something I should remember. Then she drove me back to campus and parked along the street.
Then she reached in the back and brought a big black book with gold lettering on the cover. She told me that I could keep it, and she stuck a card inside which she said had her telephone number on it and I could call her anytime and it also had her computer mail address if I wanted to send her a computer letter instead of calling.
I thanked her for taking me to lunch and told her I would call her if I had any questions, and then I took the book in my mouth and went back to my dorm room. I had a lot to think about; some of what she'd said at lunch was still a bit confusing, but hopefully it would be a little more clear once I'd read a bit.
It was a really big book, and I wasn't going to get all the way through it anytime soon. The best way to approach it would be to read a chapter at a time. I didn't make it very far, though; just to the part where God made a perfect land for humans to live in, and then they messed up and He kicked them out.
I would have gotten further, but the telephone rang, and it was Mister Salvatore, and he wanted to check in and see how things were going with me and wondered if there was anything I needed, and we wound up talking for a little bit, up until it was time for dinner. I told Sean that I would watch Star Trek with him tomorrow after dinner, and he was really happy about that.
Then when I got back to the room, it was social time again. We sat around playing cards and drinking beer until it was pretty late, and I didn't have a chance to read any more.
There's just something about human nature that makes them screw up a good thing, no matter how it gets handed to them.
Fortunately, there's also something about human nature that makes us persevere in the face of said screwups and try to get it back.
History is the ongoing fight between these two natures.
I think that went pretty well, I love that the pastor asked her about Equestria before trying to explain God.
Hello!
My name is Silver Glow
And I would like to share with you
The most amazing book.
Well, it sounds like Liz handled things very well. This is the internet, so someone will find something to complain about, but I can't figure out what they are likely to target.
Also, do ponies have a better memory than humans that she thinks a human would know everyone on campus?
7066641 If you're interested in christian mythology, check out the bible reloaded on YT. They're up to the part of the bible that talks about unicorns.
I was surprised to read this. I've always considered this to be a pop-culture misunderstanding of Christianity. Protestant Christians are pretty much united in their belief that it's your relationship with God that gets you into Heaven, not your actions--that access to Heaven is open to even the most vile sinner who turns penitent. Is this a Catholic thing, or perhaps a misunderstanding on Silver Glow's part?
7066646 You mean the part about wild oxen? (Seriously, that's how all the more modern translations render the word, and I hardly think Pastor Liz would've given Silver Glow a King James Version.)
If you're talking about Silver Glow being shocked... Yes. Absolutely. With a lot of help from Princess Celestia, their herd natures, and (at least in my headcanon) from background mind-nudging magic, the ponies have made a cooperative society with almost no need for actual punishments. The death penalty is unheard-of. Major magical assaults are shrugged off and forgiven off the bat. Unfortunately, things aren't like that on Earth, and they were even less like that several thousand years ago in the times the Bible describes.
7066647
Whether good works are equally important as faith for salvation is a frequently misunderstood and hotly debated point.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation
7066647 I'm fairly sure it's one of the more "mainline"/"liberal" Protestant churches; at least some of them are quite willing to say that good people get to Heaven no matter what religion they follow. And, any church with a female pastor is definitely not a Roman Catholic church.
(I'm a more conservative Protestant, and your description's pretty much right on about us. Even the worst sinner, if he truly repents, can go to Heaven; conversely, even the best person won't go to Heaven without repentance, because everyone sins somewhat. Yes, God can theoretically bring someone to repentance and belief in Him apart from Christianity-in-so-many-words... but He hasn't given any signs that He does that.)
that was the most important tenant of Christianity --> tenet
Does kinda bring up the question, how would you go about explaining human religion to a pony? After all, here is a being that has, for all intents and purposes, a demigod in charge of a representative constitutional monarchy using a capitalist economy whose last major nationalistic credible threat was a millennia in the past, the next most recent threats being two demigods and a freaking alien invasion, and the nearest neighbours being so far behind socially, culturally, and technologically that there is pretty much no good comparison in our western history. (The closest you might come is Russia our China neighbouring with Mongolia, but even the Mongolian are only about 20-100 years behind their neighbors and still strong enough militarily to remain independent)
Compare that to our world, who's leadership is, at most, only a single generation long, and usually not even that. We haven't had anyone who has a legitimate claim to Devine status in millennia, and even the ones back in the days of ancient pre-empire Rome or Greece are suspect claims. You then have the differing philosophies, which one you hold to is more likely influenced by where you grew up more than anything else. Past that you have the different religions, which are also more likely than not to be regional in nature, all based on stories so old that the original documents are, in some cases, even questioned to exist AT ALL, and absolutely no semi immortal beings to set the record straight or even provide a narrative for the few records we do have. Top all of that with a cultural paranoia so severe that simply speaking differently, not even another language, just with a different accent, brands you add a potentially lethal monster just waiting to attack or corrupt the youth. Oh, and then there's the minor fact that war is such a common occurrence that we name them like we name movies; evocative and often with sequels.
The pony literally has NO frame of reference for this discussion.
7066647
Liz is giving the most simple explanation possible, like you might explain to a six-year-old in Sunday School, and she's explaining it to a pony who has no understanding whatsoever of God, so there's a bit lost in translation.
The means of salvation have been somewhat debated over the centuries and through the different Christian doctrines, but that's a little much for a lunchtime conversation. I think that Liz would most likely believe that you have to accept Jesus into your heart, and then you have to do good deeds. A deathbed conversion isn't going to cut it. That's not the greatest answer, but then I'm not the greatest theologian
7066636
"Hello, my name is Sister Shimmer and this is Sister Lulamoon. We're here to tell you about The Church of Princess Sparkle of Latter-day Friends. Have you accepted Twilight as you're BFF and Friend?"
7066647
Given that there are scores if not hundreds of different sects of Christianity, things vary. That being said here's the rundown, from my understanding: Catholics generally don't do universal salvation (hereafter called US), after Protestants split from Catholics (the printing press was important in this split because it allowed expanded access to the Bible, leading to many different interpretations) they formed many different groups, many of which did believe in US. In some ways US was a counter culture to Calvinist ideas of predestination to either heaven or hell. My information may be incorrect or biased given that I learned it from a UU perspective, so take this for what you will.
7066663 They're at the book of Job, Specifically. And yeah I know they probably meant Rhino for a 1 horned beast, since leviathan and Behemoth are also mentioned and they sound like a whale/shark and elephants, but you know that 'unicorn' would leave equestrians scratching their heads.
Job's also a big thing I don't think you can justify to a pony since its god making a dude suffer just to prove he's great, and he lets Satan kill Job's family in the process, then tells Job it happened because he's powerless. Imagine Celestia doing that. I think reading it would just make Silver Glow think humans are insane for thinking such tales are 'good.'
7066720 Your church calls "all good people get to Heaven" by the name Universal Salvation? Weird; how I've heard Universal Salvation defined is "Everyone gets to Heaven. Good people, bad people, everyone." And about half the people I've heard it from are Roman Catholics, though some of them will admit it's not official church teaching. (Though I've also heard it is official teaching in a few Protestant denominations.)
7066751 Unicorns/aurochs/whatever are mentioned in several other places too; here's a full list. And yes, I'm sure Equestrians would be very interested if any of them saw the KJV. For that matter, some Bible scholars might be wondering if the word really does mean "unicorn" after all, now that they know unicorns exist...
("Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?" God asks Job rhetorically. No, a lot of the unicorns we've seen would definitely not be willing...)
Wow, this was a really good take on religion. I'm glad it didn't end up with Liz preaching like crazy (although a small part of me wonders how that would've ended), and her noting that the authors of Bible were people, not God, is pretty important.
After seeing so much garbage on the internet that focuses on the image of God (aka 'vague muscular man with a beard and a sword' that watches your every move), it's nice to see a religious character who states that it's more about love and personal interpretation, rather than fear of being poked by a giant fork in Hell.
7066765 Talking about the King James unicorn makes me think of Biblical Monsters, which is an ugly, nasty trick of a story, so grr.
7066765 I know plenty, if you want a more entertaining reads of the bible I suggest The Bible Reloaded or The Bible Skeptic on Youtube. With Bible Reloaded you also get the insanity of Chick Tracts. x3
In either case, its why I prefer to keep religion away from my ponies.
At least she run into a Jehovah's witness. Not they are particularly bad or anything. Their Awake literature is actually pretty good.
7066754 It's certainly a view that's gotten some contemporary thought (salvation of everyone). When I worked in my college bookstore a decade-odd ago, there was a new release book in our theology section about that. It's a view that resonates well with the denominations that emphasize the mercy and love aspect, as well as those that are more into multiculturalism, etc.
7066808 7066812 If you want to see Christianity and ponies done at least decently well, you could check out the unfortunately-abandoned A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Pageant. I could almost see it taking place in the same universe as this, a couple years later.
FINALLY glad to see her wrangle a Cloud to bring to her Professor!! <3
Also as a Christian, I think you are doing a very good job of having Christianity. ^^
And then there is Allah (which is Arabic for 'God' so just another name and book from the same guy I guess) and Buddha and the Vishnu and - if you want to get philosophical about it - potentially Lao Tzu and Confucius ... but it's probably good that she started with Christianity since so many early Western philosophers were heavily influenced by that book. But once she gets into some of the more worldly philosophers or non-European ones, her eyes will really open to the multitude of deities.
7066698 Somebody needs to write this.
7066694
Fair enough.
7066672
7066720
7066754
7066828
I'm learning a lot about the different branches of Christianity today!
7066894
They already kinda did.
The Book of Friendship
7066754 Sorry if I wasn't clear. US means everyone (even Hitler) gets to heaven, because God (singular, none of that Father/Son/Ghost nonsense) is inherently loving. "The inherent worth and dignity of every person" being the first principle of UUism. The end result is we (at least where I live, the area being socially and politically conservative) get called "that gay church." It's honestly quite amusing.
One principal of Jesus the Christ's blood-covering sacrifice is that ALL good people who died ignorant of His sacrifice and resurrection gospel are clean of sin in God's eyes and allowed into Heaven (with fewer riches in the global leaderboard). This was a retroactive effect indicated by His break-in into Sheol(?)/Hell.
This means that the only sins that are not covered by the blood-sacrifice upon death is: rejection of the gospel if you are made aware of it, and rejection of a possible creator if you are unaware of the gospel, and being a monster against all senses of inbuilt or logically discernible morals and ethics.
Also something about lukewarm spirits being offensive/potentially damned, but i think that only applies to believers?
TL;DR dirt farmers have to go to heaven, educated folk are optional.
Is Silver Glow going to be bombarded with religious books now? If so I recommend the Bhagavad Gita, it's a trip.
Also, doesn't Genesis have two different creation stories in it?
7066647 Protestant theology is a melange of all kinds of different ideas (not to claim that there is anywhere near only one set of ideas in Catholicism). Although Luther espoused something vaguely like what you imply, the radical distinction between actions and mental assertion you describe is neo-Calvinism. It only really started in earnest in the US Southeast in the antebellum era, and I suspect it was the influence of slavery and retrenchment in the form of Jim Crow that lead to its prominence. After all, you can be as malicious to people of color (usually Blacks or Native Americans, but lots of others too) as you want under this philosophy and you still get to go to Heaven. What a deal, right?
7067547 We could call it The Teacher Sleeps In or Onto the Pony College.
7066686 She did a pretty decent job introducing it though, "God is perfect, but the men who wrote the Bible were not." Don't think I've ever heard it summed up so well.
7067765
That statement is actually heresy to most Protestant branches. I think in the RCC, too. Just like the "doing good works to get into Heaven" thing, you might be able to explain it away as the six-year-old version.
I like your approach on Christianity in this. As a Christian I know it is a rather sensitive subject to discuss in a fictional story about magical ponies on the internet and you are handling it well. I also like how you are capitalizing the pronouns when describing God.
7067059
Reminds me of this one story concerning missionaries and some Native Americans. While illustrative, I'm not sure how factual it is.
Missionaries were working hard to convert some Native Americans. In the process, the idea of children and heaven came up. The missionaries dutifully explained how the innocent - those who couldn't yet know God's word - are welcome in heaven. The Native Americans were innocent before the missionaries came, so they would previously all get into heaven, but now, after being introduced to God's word, they could end up in hell and became angry with the missionaries.
"Why would you spread the word of God to us?! You just damned people to hell!"
Or something like that. I was very entertained.
7067043
Hello fellow UU!
7067227 If I recall, I was quite young then, but 95-96 was a particularly cold and snowy winter.
7066647
Actions are really important. Matthew 25:31-46 really makes that clear; it's the people who fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, etc., who are invited into the Kingdom. And James 2:14-26 outright says that faith without works is dead.
Mind you, that doesn't invalidate a deathbed conversion. But it strongly suggests that it has to be a conversion such that, if a miracle happens and you get some more time to live, you would be doing good works of some sort.
Well going by a lot of the comments so far I think I'll try and tread lightly, I'm obviously going to be stepping on egg shells here.
I don't like the way Liz handled this, or at least parts of what she did. Namely how she didn't seem to entertain the idea she could be wrong. I know this is a summery in a journal entry but the point of view of no divine entity or supernatural force not to mention the huge multitude of other religions would be a prominent enough point to jot down. This is a fairly big and fairly bias oversight on her part that might even come back to bite her. I guess I can at least be grateful Silver isn't a diplomat.
Ideally I would explain god and Christianity as one of a great many stories, albeit a popular one, humans use to explain the existence of the universe and give reason to their place in it. Other reject these stories, choosing to make their own meaning for their existence and leave the creation of the universe as either a temporary or permanent gap in our knowledge.
However! With al that said, as much as I disagree with Liz's way of putting it, I think it was a well written response for her character. She honestly believes what she is talking about so from that point of view misleading the poor ignorant pony would be a bad idea as would be deterring her from the 'truth' with a few unsavoury things she's 'not ready' for.
Honestly I don't have enough information to say for sure but I don't think I would call her a bad person just for that though some of the things she says does make me a touch sceptical of her motives. Just hope saying that doesn't make people think I'm a bad person... though I guess it does mean the above statement of "there will always be someone to complain" rings true.
Edit: On a side note, if Silver is watching through the Star Trek films we might get a little interesting debate over the matter, after all... what does god need with a star ship?
7067854 By "RCC", I assume you mean "Roman Catholic Church"? If so, I can attest that no, the Catholic church does not believe that to be heresy. In fact, my local priest often talks about the Bible's imperfections in his sermons, especially regarding the English translations and how the writers of the Old Testament were addicted to symbolism and metaphor. To them, it was the meaning, the message behind the story that was important. The specific details were often secondary at best.
It's as perfect as humanly possible, sure, but as we all know, the bar for human perfection is not always set very high.
It's nice to see the person she asked actually has a good head on her shoulders. Some folks take the bible far too literally.
7068961
If that's really Roman Catholic doctrine, I guess I don't know enough to really say otherwise.
Be careful though; that different translations may be more or less accurate won't be controversial, even among fundamentalist Protestants, and no denomination I'm aware of has issues with there being metaphor. What Liz's statement reads to me is an excuse to disregard parts of the Bible as "mistakes written in by people," which I'd be surprised to hear Catholicism would allow. Like I said, it may be a "six-year-old" reason to learn the interpretation of a verse from someone who's studied it carefully rather than haring off with your own, but it's dangerously close to a justification for "buffet-style" Christianity.
7069146 If you want a branch that takes things literally, just look at Jehovah's Witnesses. I've spoken with one of their teachers and seen their material. They don't accept anything other than a literal interpretation. At least they're polite about it, though. If they're going to be the way they are, they kind of have to be.
I know for certain that there are counterpoints to your concerns. However, I do not know what they are. I am no biblical scholar. I don't even read it as much as I'm encouraged to. Thus, I'm kind of at my limit and have little else to add to this discussion at this time.
7064489 Paranoia? I just know quite a bit more about her than most because I pay attention... and have quite a few sources.
I actually DO know as much as I claim, so much so that years ago I reached the point where I decided to 'just watch the world burn'.
And laugh.
7065441 You're missing the entire reason Trump supporters like 'the wall' and keeping Muslims out.
1. Illegal immigration IS against the law, and border towns ARE subject to incredibly high rates of drug gang activity, kidnapping, rape, and murder.
I would hazard a guess the ponies have done none of those things...
2. Jihadists... I have no need to recite the massive list of their crimes, do I?
No ponies are suicide bombing anyone anywhere.
Therefore, there are none of the reasons present in the situation regarding the ponies with which Trump supporters are upset. Indeed, the ponies would be bringing immense wealth and resources with them from a totally stable, virtually crime-free world from our perspective.
By singling out what the media has singled out, you've inadvertently furthered the propaganda. I despise political propaganda in fantasy fics, from either side, and avoid it like the plague. The only type I'll read is flat-out satire and parody, and even then it had better be funny or else I whip out my giant, rock-hard, dripping... critic's pen. What?
Really, the ones who would protest the ponies the most would be religious zealots, since the ponies' arrival would pretty much obliterate existing religious beliefs unless Celestia said, "Oh yes! We know 'insert deity name' quite well!" Which would then cause every other religion except for that one to go nuts in denial.
Yeah.
It's interesting on top of this that she is a pastor--which implies she pastors a church in the present time--which feeds right back into her statement. I know some of Christendom accepts female clergy, some absolutely do not, and some are not sure either way. And then the Baptists are, as ever, a clusterfuck of everything and anything. That's the great part of local autonomy of the church, the chaos of diversity.
I feel like I'm going to have to start reading through the Torah with Silver Glow! haha. I imagine Genesis and Exodus will not be so bad, but once she gets to the law it's gonna get confusing as hell. Without context so much is not gonna make sense. Though if she skipped that part the next part is Joshua who I can say unbiasedly is the OG of the Old Testament.
while
I don't believe the 'what' is required there.
7069768
Oops; both corrections made, thank you!
7066679
Fixed, thank you!
7066632
Humanity i love you
7066633
Having the frame of reference would be the most important place to begin an explanation: she can build on what Silver already knows and believes, rather than have to start completely from scratch.
7066644
It's a really small campus. Probably less than 1200 people total between the students and the staff, so there's a good chance that everyone would at least be passingly familiar with everyone else.
7066677
Yes, Liz is a fairly liberal pastor, preaching at a very liberal college.
7066686
That does throw a wrench in the works, especially since Liz herself hasn't got that much familiarity with Equestrian customs. I'm handwaving a bit of that away, since each side would have learned some things about the other before this meeting took place.
But I imagine a setting where a missionary comes to Equestria cold, and starts telling the ponies about Hell. After a few false starts, a pony finally perks up and says, "Oh, you mean Tartarus! That's not far--do you want to visit it?"
7066698
How do I join?